Magnet Magazine: "Black people do not exist"

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So the new Magnet has the Top 60 albums of the mag's ten-year lifespan, and looking through it last night I noticed there was one electronic record (Moby's Play, and that's stretching it), one hip-hop record (DJ Shadow's Entroducing, stretching it again), six albums by women and NOT A SINGLE ARTIST THAT WAS BLACK. Of course Magnet's whole musical taste is obvious and this shouldn't be a surprise, but I was pretty astounded by that exclusion.

Also, Andrew Earles takes aim at some white elephants again, blasting ARE Weapons and Electric 6 for being too schticky, and FannyPack for being inauthentic. Well done, Andrew! (of course nevermind that Cat from FannyPack taught me how to scam yr way onto the NYC subways for free a couple of years ago -- that's pretty "street," right Andy?)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

They did include DJ Shadow's Entroducing...which is almost more of an insult to hip hop..."We'll take the deep "spiritual" introspective hip hop made by a white man...but that other stuff...that's below us."

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Thursday, 21 August 2003 18:59 (twenty-one years ago)

The DJ Shadow inclusion makes this all the more embarassing, but I'm glad they put no artists that were black then if they threw in a token one. Like, I dunno, the Roots?

I'll forgive 'em cuz they put in Urge Overkill's Saturation. Which I've been listening to all day.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

well, they're an INDIE ROCK mag. DJ Shadow, to me at least, has always been more indie rock than hip hop, in that oh so collegial loose version of the term.
I mean, it's almost like you're complaining that there's no country in Vibe's top 60 list or something.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

>Of course Magnet's whole musical taste is obvious and this shouldn't be a surprise, but I was pretty astounded by that exclusion.

Who would you have had them include? Cody Chesnutt? Fishbone? (Fishbone had already started to suck before MAGNET started publishing, but still, as long as we're going for tokenism...)

Question: Did they include the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, and if so, does that count?

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Question: Did they include the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, and if so, does that count?
They got Orange, and that's the right one for the right reasons.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a really good friend from college who works at Magnet now. She has good taste in indie rock in general, but she just has no idea about hip hop. The night of my graduation, I got into a long argument with her when she said that there was no way I could possibly ever defend something as empty and soulless as Nas. Now she has a full-time industry job and a P&J ballot, and I'm doing local freelancing from my boring boring office assistant job. Maybe I shouldn't have majored in English after all. (I still have huge love for her, though, if not her magazine, and I'd probably freelance for them if she offered.)

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

So wait, is that the same Andrew Earles who, on his P&J singles ballot last year, voted for songs named "A Sheet of Ren and Stimpy Acid" and "Dad, There's a Little Phrase Called Too Much Information" and "My '80s Gym Trash Uniform Isn't Going To Look So Cute in Five Years" and "Marc Bolan Makes Me Want to Fuck" and "Let's Just Do It on the Conference Table" and "I Sure Am Glad I Didn't Take Yesterday Off...." I mean, I had to enter that fucking ballot in the database, and (as much as I was amused by some of the titles --I even like the one John Wilkes Booze song, actually), it seems to me that somebody who would vote for so many apparent novelty records might actually LIKE schticks, and not care a wit about authenticity at all. Wow, way to blow my preconceptions. So he's just another moron who thinks ARE Weapons and Electric Six and Fannypack lack integrity? Fuck him.

― chuck, Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Integrity is overrated.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah Chuck, and he called Mike Skinner (aka the Streets) a wigger in the last issue. It's especially disappointing cuz I've always really liked him, especially his pieces in Chunklet and his Cimmaron Weekly zine. Oh well.

Agreed that there's something to be said for the lack of tokenism (though I think Play and Endtroducing might be just that), but the mag's uniformity in taste is frightening. Best thing in the whole mag: Carlos from Interpol saying "Credible music is overrated." That, and the Thom Yorke interview, where the interviewer is totally baffled by Thom's assertion that the move away from the album format is a good thing.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

>the mag's uniformity in taste is frightening.

Frightening how? What should they be talking about that they're not, and why? It's a little niche magazine. Do you have the same complaint about, say, Relix?

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

a vibe top 60 would definitely rep for some country, maybe not the source or xxl but vibe would!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Ethan you predicted what I was gonna say, and Vibe was the exact mag I was gonna cite, but...umm, really? Like, what country records has Vibe liked in the past ten years?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Field Mob!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(JD: yr OK Computer write-up was refreshingly uncliched! Good work.)

Phil: I don't read Relix, but does it treat every genre of music that it doesn't cover with a snobbish disdain? Does it define its subject not by what it is, but what it isn't?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't Magnet put Tom Petty on the cover recently?

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

uhh, he's not black

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

and he's part of their "niche" (ie. whites only)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

and Pete Yorn.

The Tom Petty interview was actually really interesting. Petty proved himself worthy of the adulation they heaped (hept???) upon him by sort of not getting what they were trying to say about him. Like he's really not interested in ANY of the bizz, indie OR corporate.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

where does charging $75 a ticket fit into that anti-biz bullshit?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Fishbone had already started to suck before MAGNET started publishing...

*HOLDING TONGUE*

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

(i LIKE tom petty, by the way)(oh, and sean c. to thread)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

>*HOLDING TONGUE*

They were still good live (they probably still are), but their last good album was released in 1991.

>I don't read Relix, but does it treat every genre of music that it doesn't cover with a snobbish disdain? Does it define its subject not by what it is, but what it isn't?

I don't know, because like yourself, I don't read it. But I don't read MAGNET, either. I was just pointing to them as another example of a small rag, influential or at least notable in a very tight circle, with a pretty restricted range of subject matter.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

well, it's how he came across in the interview, very non-affected.
I have no idea what the real story is. But at least he didn't seem to be eager to be a flag-waving whatever anti-bizzer or whatnot. He seemed to be mainly interested in just doing his music. I doubt he knows or even knows who to ask how much he gets for seats to watch him be pure for 90 minutes.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

People are mad because it's a list, with only indie rock. Doesn't matter that that's what it's supposed to be, the idea doesn't sit well at ILM.

I dont like the move away from album format. I dont want to have to switch CDs after every 3 minutes, that's annoying.

― David Allen, Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, I was waiting for this thread. Almost started it myself.

the Thom Yorke interview, where the interviewer is totally baffled by Thom's assertion that the move away from the album format is a good thing.

"B-b-but the album is what makes it ART!!!"

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, since it was the 10th anniversary issue, they got to mention Bob Pollard on every other page, instead of every third.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

But the $12 subscription comes with a free CD, so I'm happy.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

"B-b-but the album is what makes it ART!!!"

This is a mischaracterization, but I guess for the interviewer to have brought it up at all, imagining for a second that it might be an interesting question to explore must mean that he's a clued-out white alt./indie rock guy whose failure to mention Ludacris in the Radiohead piece means he hates all hiphop

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

get a changer, hippiedestroyer!

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Just out of curiosity: how many Latinos or Asian-Americans made the Magnet list?

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

except he does say "I hate all hip-hop esp. Ludacris, how about you Thom?" at the end

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm surprised magnet's top 60 isn't just a list of the last 60 records released by bob pollard

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

except he does say "I hate all hip-hop esp. Ludacris, how about you Thom?" at the end

yeah and then Yorke was like "ooh, yeahrr, I mean there can only be one or the other of the two types of music, they are trying to DESTROY OUR WAY OF EXPRESSING OUR PASSION, the bastids" and then they both listened to Neutral Milk Hotel

NB in my heart I believe that a fair percentage of ilx0r would find this scenario believable

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

and a special old-skool promo floppy vinyl of Lou Reed Nick Cave and Bob Pollard jamming an Elfpower cover

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

C'mon, John! I wasn't being that unfair. I just thought it was an interesting exchange, cuz you were seeing heads come from completely different directions with very little intersection. I thought the interview was good, actually.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

number of whites, asians, latinos to make the cover, be written about in vibe >>>>>>>>>> number of blacks, asians, latinos to make the cover, be written about in magnet (nevermind the using a racist argument ie. 'how come we can have a miss black america but not a miss white america?' to defend kneejerk institutional racism is dud dud dud)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

No Yanc3y I wasn't saying that you were! I just think the idea that Magnet ought to cover stuff so as too avoid being called white is ridiculous. Most of the people involved with the mag don't give two shits about hiphop or pop music: so what? The "Vibe would cover a country artist" argt. is specious; Vibe won't be reviewing the new Nevermore album any time soon, even though it's kick-ass power metal with a black guy in the band, even and why not? 'Cause Vibe's readers don't care about power metal, and that's just fine, to me.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn - do you read Vibe? cuz I think your waaaaay off on what they will or won't cover

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

ie. I know Vibe was 'broadminded' enough to review Shelby Lynne, I can't even give Magnet enough credit to have done that (nevermind acknowledged the existence of minorities)(but hey they're a private enterprise, it's their right < / hootie johnson >)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

fred mills vs. hootie johnson

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

see, what got me about the Shadow writeup was the ending: "Endtroducing proved that DJs could be reckoned as musical artists in their own right. Thus spake Shadow, your favorite DJ savior." I mean, WOW--I realize they're an indie-rock magazine who cater to an indie-rock audience, that's not a problem, the problem is the total fucking blinkeredness of that statement: "Hey, let's pretend that Grandmaster Flash, Larry Levan, DJ Premier, Double Dee & Steinski, ad infinitum, DIDN'T EXIST and hadn't already been proving the same goddamned thing for FIFTEEN YEARS prior to Endtroducing's appearance." Fine, they don't like hip-hop, but making a statement that baldly FALSE floors me, even though I really ought to be used to it by now (cf. Rolling Stone's Shadow feature around the release of The Private Press)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, what bothers me about Magnet more than the lack of hip-hop (because, after all, that's not their niche) is the fact that their version of indie rock seems stuck in 1995. All of the profiles they printed in that issue were of these Indie Rock Elder Statesmen types like Mac McCaughan and Lou Barlow and Thurston Moore (not to mention Pollard). It's indie rock defined exclusively as the descendents of that whole Replacements/Husker Du/Dinosaur Jr. eighties underground. Which seems silly, in light of the popularity of newer bands like Dismemberment Plan and Death Cab for Cutie and Enon, who you'll maybe see in a sidebar but never a feature.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

i hesitatingly admit to my hippie roots only to mention the fact that readers of relix, or most hippie type magazines, would probably give some high praise and inclusion of a lot of blues artists along the robert johnson / rev gary davis.

what seems upsetting about the magnet thing is the general ignorance of these other genres. it seems like other types of niche mags would at least acknowledge (implicitly or explicitly) the influence of other genres / artists whereas the magnet cannon begins with whatever the first guided by voices album was...

― marcg (marcg), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I do read Vibe, on airplanes a lot (it's either than or the Source if I'm flying within the U.S. 'cause I don't care for Spin or Rolling Stone), and they have a slightly broader area of coverage: they're a mainstream mag! You don't find Magnet in airports, it's a specialty mag, it's not just that it's their "right" to cover what they want: it'd be kinda sad of them to try and cover music(s) that they're not really all about. Like if John Irving started trying to get all "street" or something.

PS I predict that this is the new trucker hat thread

xpost: jaymc pretty OTM, though I'm the guy that wrote Magnet's Enon sidebar and I stand by it ;)

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

the music press in "omg, DJ Shadow invented turntablism/sampling/soundscaping!" shockah

and jaymc otm re the mag's overreliance on geezer indie

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

(should've run a few post ago, but whatever:-->)

yeah, and didn't vibe run a really positive hootie and the blowfish review by daniel smith once? that took a lot of guts, i thought (a lot more than derogatis wanting to slam them in rolling stone did.)

also, maybe i'm wrong about this, but wouldn't the hip-hop magazines stipulate "Top 60 HIP-HOP albums" if they made such a list, at least acknowledging that they're just part of the world, not all of it?

(though maybe magnet DID say "Top 60 whitebread arhythmic indie wimp albums". I haven't actually looked at the list, so i have no idea.)

― chuck, Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Top 60 Powerpop Albums, whatever...

― chuck, Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

the list isn't bad, actually. it just seems that Shadow and Moby's place on it is, well, tokenist at best. which is fine, I guess--I've got plenty of token likes dotting my favorite-records lists--but the gripe enumerated above taints it for me

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

plus, Hip Hop is mainstream (much of the time) on its own terms, something alternative/indie/whatever has rarely managed. So there's that jealousy thing.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

No, you're right, Chuck, I don't believe they used any modifiers: just Top 60 Records, 1993-2003. Which does make the list more cringeworthy in my eye. I mean, sure, nobody really expects them to list any hip-hop, but I don't like the implication by omission that no hip-hop is worthy of the list. (Esp. since I'm sure a lot of the readership would concur with that statement.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it's "jealousy" at all (and I'm keeping in mind Horace may be speaking sarcastically here). I'm fine with people having different aesthetic interests. I just don't think there's any excuse for ignorance on the level expressed in that writeup (by Fred Mills, if you haven't seen it yet).

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm awful, cuz sometimes I'll say something sincerely, then add a little sarcastic thing, then get upset that no one takes me seriously.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

isn't the irksome bit that they did list 1 hip hop record & 1 electronic record and they're both by white artists? it's like tokenism that misses the point of tokenism

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Like if John Irving started trying to get all "street" or something.

THE CIDER HOUSE ROOOLZ, YO

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

why does every ILM argument ultimately devolve into people accusing others of being close-minded (eg: "_____ doesn't listen to enough hip-hop/Dave Matthews Band/dance music/[insert oft-maligned genre or artist here]")

I'm kinda with J0hn, I mean who gives a shit whether MAGNET or Rolling Stone or Vibe is covering the entirety of music produced in the world, it's silly to expect them to, mostly because that isn't what people read them for.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought the list was a good overview of UK-American indie rock (was there a non-anglo artist on the list? I don't have the iss on me (my girl subscribes, not me), and I honestly can't remember) for the '90s, even if there were maybe 5 records on that list that have really truly excited me at some point (from memory: Shellac, At Action Park; Unwound, Repitition; Pavement, Crooked Rain Crooked Rain; Jawbox, For Your Own Special Sweetheart; Fugazi, In On the Killtaker). I know there was a Bachman feature, but did Archers make the list? I can't remember them being on it.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

hmmm, yeah but i don't buy that magnet is meant to be that specific - like if punk planet or maximum r&r did a list that was similarly focused on one genre i don't think it would be disappointing, whereas magnet has just painted itself into a corner...I think it could very easily open up its borders a bit and its intended readership would be happier with it

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

(that was meant to follow shakey mo)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Yanc3y I think it's because hip-hop = the new classic rock, i.e., no matter what you're writing about music-wise, you're supposed to make sure and let everybody know that you're aware of the amazing advances in pop music that hiphop has singlehandedly ushered in, and if you don't, then you just don't know what's up, etc.

i.e., professing hiphop = new orthodoxy, which isn't to say that I don't like hiphop, it's just that I dislike the notion that you've "got to acknowledge" anything

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

wait that was to Shakey Mo not Yan3y, fast-moving threads make my brane hurt

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Y: Pretty sure Archers were not. As far as non-Anglo artists: the closest they may have come was Stereolab.

Also, Fritz OTM.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

being a non-conflict type of guy I'm inclined to say "yeah Magnet, it's a niche mag, and it sucks, big deal, ignore it," But the attitude at the heart of its suckiness is the problem. I mean, the social and aesthetic boundaries that hold 'indie' and 'hiphop' together are of a different kind and comparison or easy equation of them is a dodge. (and the defensiveness of the "they do it too" charge at hiphop from indie is telling)

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

good. i was hella confused. i thought bachman had become an mc or something!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

ie no believer calls his niche a niche, does he?

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

(and the defensiveness of the "they do it too" charge at hiphop from indie is telling)

yeah, but telling of what? I mean the only reason that we don't hear defenders of other niche mags saying "well, Magnet only covers this-and-such, so we can cover what we like" is that Magnet (sc. Pitchfork, whoever else) is the identified low-man on the pecking order

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

and why no salsa? no bollywood soundtrack music? no eurodance? no norteno? no afrobeat? no country?

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

the answer to amateurist's q: "oh but you can't pretend that any of those genres have had anywhere near the impact," etc., qed: Jay-Z is Robert Plant

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I know these are kind of treacherous waters to wade into, but it seems like what gives this charge of non-inclusiveness its bite is the implication of possible crypto-racism behind it. I'm not too familiar with Magnet but judging from what I've read on this thread, it sounds like they cover a genre of music that - for whatever reasons - actually doesn't have a huge number of black or other non-anglo performers in it. I mean if they made a list of the top 60 hip-hop acts of the past 10 years without including any black performers, the racism would be bleeding obvious, right? But given their genre focus, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

o. nate, I mostly agree.

(the subject heading and lede of this thread was not meant to imply racism, but to just reiterate how tight some blinders are, ya know?)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Then why include Moby or DJ Shadow at all?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

"We like all kinds of music. Country AND western."

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"R and B."

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

calyp and so.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

any niche magazine could logically be targeted as being elitist/non-inclusive/racist/whatever. Is it wrong to have niche magazines then?

(and btw, I wouldn't lump Pitchfork in w/MAGNET in this case J0hn, as I think a lot of people'smain beef with tha 'Fork, myself included, isn't that it's narrowminded or prone to tokenism or indie snobbery or what have you, it's that the goddamn writing - or I should say, penchant for chronic misinformation clothed in narcissistic twaddle - is so gawdawful).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, by and large pitchfork is WAAAAAAAAY more "diverse" than magnet is.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

the writing in magnet is worse than the writing in pitchfork

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

(nb: it's been three years since i read an issue of magnet. i doubt much has changed.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

(Just because I'm reluctant to accuse Magnet of racism doesn't mean that I wouldn't accuse them of catering to incredibly narrow-minded and parochial tastes.)

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

frankly i'd be as embarassed to buy magnet as i would be to buy mojo. it's not what they cover so much as the STODGY SOLEMNITY OF IT ALL. (so i guess i agree with john, to an extent, except that vibe, source, xxl, murder dog, et al have a MUCH MUCH more healthy - read: enthusiastic - take on what they cover.) plus i can read better writing for free in any number of places.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

you really think that about Vibe? it seems just as stodgy in its haute-glamour pretentions as Magnet does in its "real music" ones

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

It sounds like Magnet are the Geir Hongro of music mags (no offense to Geir intended).

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

(plus when someone in vibe or the source sez "xxx is here to SAVE MUSIC" it's way more believable.)

x-post: okay maybe not vibe. again, i havent actually READ an issue of vibe since the jay-z cover circa la roc familia.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn - since when is the argument for a 'whites only' editorial policy 'jay-z = robert plant'? I mean, there are plenty of electronic and backpacker records by black artists that are better than endtroducing and play and still woulda met their 'mainstream (except for radiohead, tom petty, pearl jam,...mainstream's okay if you gotta guitar and you pay plenty of homage to...wait for it... 70s classic rock) eww' quotient. the fact that they even managed to keep their tokenism lilywhite (combined with their past - or do you have a way to tell me how 'mike skinner is a wigger' isn't out and out racist?) speaks volumes.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I just think these accusations are more legitimate when they're directed at publications who really ARE presenting themselves as covering the entire spectrum of music. MAGNET is about indie rock. Indie rock is pretty much by and about white people. Ergo, magazine covers white people. What's wrong with that? I guarantee you if you don't know about indie rock or have no interest in it - YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD OF MAGNET (as opposed to say, SPIN, or Rolling Stone, or the NME, which have much higher profiles and a professed commitment to stylistic diversity).

I'm kinda saddened to see so many people defending VIBE as some sort of cultural touchstone tho - that is one of the shittiest magazines ever put together, and is just as blinkered and bullshit-centered as MAGNET, albeit in a different context. I don't think I've ever read a single decent article in VIBE.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Even when Rolling Stone did their big top 100 rock albums of the last 20 years back in 1987, they threw on a token Miles Davis record (guess) and a few token soul albums (guess). You mean Magnet's editorship - as John pointed out, an underground publication - couldn't find the imagination to include some entertaining, provocative selections (oh wait, that dolt Fred Mills is involved though, right?)

It wouldn't have to be hip-hop. There are any number of interesting records that I'd bet their readership could be receptive to. How about Paperclip People's Secret Tapes of Dr. Eich, Junior Kimbrough's Up All Night, DJ /rupture's Minesweeper Suite or Henry Threadgill's Too Much Sugar For A Dime? Two of those even have real instruments on them (including guitar in both cases!)

But yeah, I mean why spend valuable time with that magazine at all? Matos do you read it because you sort of have to keep on top of the general journalistic landscape?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

believable in the sense that it's being written about from the perspective of "isn't this new and fun and wacky!" rather than "X is here to save music from itself."

vibe wrote a really great piece on JA soundclashes in that last issue i wrote. i admit the reviews were usually crap.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

it's sent to the office because my predecessor writes for them

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

and for chrissakes nothing that glossy (in all senses), with distribution all around the country, regularly stocked in major chain stores...hell, i've seen magnet in drug and grocery stores!...can really be called "underground" can it??

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

tom petty, radiohead, pearl jam /= underground

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

in a sense i'm just agreeing with mr. diamond, in a roundabout way.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

the super wal-mart in watkinsville, ga stocks magnet

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Magnet: by and about white people (but not racist, really)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah the idea that "indie rock is largely by and about white people" seems pretty fucking quasi-racist to me.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

also, a really massive step BACKWARDS if true. (which i'm not saying it might not be.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

wha? Quasi-racist? Are you telling me that isn't true? Have you ever been to an indie rock show/looked at the liner notes/observed who buys and listens to it?

Is Norteno music racist because it's mostly by and about Mexicans? Is Afrobeat racist because it's mostly by and about black people, and Africans in particular? Is black metal racist bec - okay, bad example... but you get the idea (I hope). Just because a scene has clearly observable cultural boundaries does not mean that scene is inherently xenophobic, racist, or elitist. Because EVERYTHING has pretty clearly defined cultural boundaries (yes, even the sacred HIP HOP and class RAWK).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

that should say classic RAWK there...

I failed rawk class...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

class rawk is the 00s version of class war.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i take your point shakey, but i also take blounts point that there have probably been way more white/latino/asian people covered in the source than magnet. (what that says about hip-hop's inclusivity, i dunno.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

shaky reiterating the 'how come they can have a miss black america but we can't have a miss white america?' theme of this thread

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

with the fallacy that in order to write about minority musicians you have to write about mainstream hip-hop being the other

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Gramophone Magazine: "People born after 1874 do not exist"

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i also bet magnet readers would shit themselves if they heard paperclip people!

― jed_e_3 (jed_e_3), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

ie. the thread title ain't "Magnet Magazine: 'mainstream hip-hop does not exist'"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I've kind of skimmed through the thread, so I might be a little off base here, but this debate kind of reminds me of a letter Will Oldham sent to No Depression a few years ago, denouncing it as racist because of the magazine's almost exclusive focus on white musicians.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Dear Will,

We will write about more black musicians when you credit Washington Phillips with having written "I Had a Good Mother and Father."

XXOO,

No Depression

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Paperclip People is probably a bit much for them to swallow, true. But Junior Kimbrough kinda sounds like Spacemen 3 at times (really!) and DJ /rupture is kind of wild and keraaazy like, I dunno, the Butthole Surfers or something. I think they'd like it!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

but hip-hop's "more inclusive" in the sense that other cultures/ethnic groups are now (and have historically been since at least the days of minstrel shows) eager to partake in black culture and its perceived "authenticity". No one needs white boy "authenticity" because it isn't interesting or considered legitimate. Nor is it dangerous or scary to the parents. Therefore VIBE having a wider range of ethnicities represented goes hand in hand with hip-hop's attempt to both absorb and cater to its non-black aspirants. Indie rock has no such cultural baggage - its a bunch of educated white people exchanging some rather specific and highly-codified cultural signifiers.

(I feel like I should state for the record that I like both Jay-Z AND Pavement)

"shaky reiterating the 'how come they can have a miss black america but we can't have a miss white america?' theme of this thread "

As for this crack: FUCK YOU. I'm totally down with their being a Miss Black America (and god bless Curtis Mayfield for the song of the same name), affirmative action, what-have-you. If there's a portion of society that's been historically shit upon for hundreds of years, makes perfect sense to me that they deserve some entitlement and restitution to rebuild and reinforce their communal bonds.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i think the difference comes in whether or not magnet wants to define themselves as an "indie rock" magazine or a "new music alternatives" magazine (or whatever their tagline was.) if the former, then yeah, i guess shakey mo has a kernel of a point with his "indie is by and about white people" (ha ha nitsuh to thread); if the latter, i'm not going to say they're REQUIRED to cover non-white artists, but it does seem a bit suspect...

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I've always thought the 'white kids like black culture cuz it represents the other' argument was at least partially bullshit and a way of slighting black culture ie. 'they just listening to it cuz they think it's authentic not cuz it's, yknow, good'

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

not that there isn't some truth to the argument, just that it fails to explain why specifically this example of black culture instead of that example

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

The magazine's tagline is "real music alternatives"

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

well there's the problem right there, obv. black people don't make "real music"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"'they just listening to it cuz they think it's authentic not cuz it's, yknow, good' "

Well, I guess you trust people's tastes more than I do. I'm of the general opinion that the average white American listener is a totally culturally illiterate and easily manipulated moron, and very rarely do they listen to anything because they actually think it's "good". Most of the time they listen to something because it's there, it's easy to obtain, and it positions them culturally where they want to be (ie, "bad" or "sensitive" or an "outsider"). But here we get into second-guessing the motivations of others, which is an inescapable black hole and not worth really investigating...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

so you think white kids listen to "crazy in love" cuz it represents the other and not becuz of the horns, beats, etc.?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

when people bought thriller what were they positioning themselves as?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

btw, thanks for proving my point EXACTLY

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

well, when I bought Thriller as a kid it was because it was what everyone else was doing and I subconsciously thought that maybe if I was "with it" I wouldn't get beaten up so often on the playground. Plus it was, y'know, catchy and easily memorized. And Michael Jackson was a freaky weirdo that my parents thought was strange.

Crazy in Love is a great song. On the other hand, I don't know a single parent with teenage kids that likes it.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i bought thriller cuz it sounded good and it was fun to rollerskate too.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

iow: you got issues, boy.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, now that you mention it, this reminds me of a key Michael Jackson anecdote from my childhood - there was an older kid, maybe two grades ahead of me, named Randy who had one of the red zipper jackets a la Billie Jean and everyone thought he was the coolest. (Note: there was not a single black student at my school). At some point, someone who wanted to cause me some grief told Randy that I had been saying that Michael Jackson "took female hormones". Randy cornered me in the lunchroom and beat the shit out of me, even though I told him it wasn't true and that I liked Michael Jackson.

Moral of the story: I have no idea...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Reginald Denny: "I thought I'd give hip-hop a try, ya know, cuz maybe then I'll be 'with it' and black people won't beat me up."

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey: You go dawg!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Moral of the story: you went to an all-white school

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

So you guys all agree that racial politics plays no role in white American music consumption.

Fascinating.

And you say MAGNET is blinkered...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

and btw, the school was not all white. Interesting that other ethnicities don't count to you.

So is Norteno music racist or not?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

right, that's what this said

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Re: Thriller -- I liked the beats and hooks? I needed to explain more?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

ned - that's impossible! buying black music = you wanna be black

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Aw man! And I tried and I tried with all that Jheri curl hairproduct stuff too!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm lost.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHAHA OMG NED YOU HAVE TO LET YOUR SOUL GLOW

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

shakey - if mexicans historically were responsible for almost 100% of the oppression in this country to the point that the overwhelming majority of blacks in this country have ancestors that were enslaved by mexicans and if mexicans still held the reigns of power in this country and some of them used this power to denigrate and victimize anyone non-mexican and then a magazine published in this enviroment professing itself to cover 'real music' but ignoring anyone non-mexican would possibly be racist. ie. yes.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

so, to recap:

1 - White Americans buy music without any consideration of racial politics, they only listen to things because they are GOOD, not because they're a bunch of racist sheep.
2 - MAGNET is morally obligated to cover more black artists, even if they do not fall within MAGNET'S chosen genre of coverage (I'm sorry, but Junior Kimbrough, much as I like him, is not indie rock).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

show me a single post where anyone says any of the above

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

also, show me where Magnet's editorial statement is to cover indie rock (unless indie rock = "real music")(which of course it does!)

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:05 (twenty-one years ago)

in which case why are they covering Tom Petty, Pearl Jam, Radiohead,...?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

James likes black people!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey - what percentage of people like "crazy in love" cuz they actually think it's good vs. cuz beyonce's black?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

vs. cuz beyonce's hot.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

There is a massive leap between this (which is entirely accurate): "if mexicans historically were responsible for almost 100% of the oppression in this country to the point that the overwhelming majority of blacks in this country have ancestors that were enslaved by mexicans and if mexicans still held the reigns of power in this country and some of them used this power to denigrate and victimize anyone non-mexican"

and this: "and then a magazine published in this enviroment professing itself to cover 'real music' but ignoring anyone non-mexican would possibly be racist. ie. yes. "

Mostly because the first half has next to nothing to do with the second, and you're deliberately misconstruing which I assume you must KNOW is MAGNET's intended purpose and audience. Like I say, show me someone who's never heard of or been interested in indie rock, and they will have no idea what MAGNET is. Ergo, MAGNET is for people interested in indie rock, the vast majority of whom are white and the vast majority of which is made by white people.

"what percentage of people like "crazy in love" cuz they actually think it's good vs. cuz beyonce's black? "

I don't know, nor do I particularly care, nor is this relevant to anything. It's a total red herring for you to let yourself feel superior. (It's okay, I bet black people really DO like you!) Like I said before, I think the song is great. Who cares what other people think of it. I do know that it won't get reviewed in MAGNET, mostly because IT ISN'T INDIE ROCK.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

haha - shakey: what percentage of people think beyonce's hot cuz of they like her looks vs. cuz she's black?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

show me a single post where anyone says any of the above

Ummm, thread title to thread

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

shakey- if magnet is such an underground indie magazine covering such underground indie artists as tom petty and radiohead, tell me why I can buy it in super wal-mart?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

also, that Vibe doesn't cover free jazz makes them class enemies

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

haha - what percentage of people that hate "Crazy in Love" hate it because they're racist vs. because they think the song sucks?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn - how do black artists not fall with Magnet's perameters if DJ Shadow and Moby do?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

zing!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

elvis was a hero to most but he never meant shit to me

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing is that Magnet does cover black artists (hence the free jazz line). They just don't cover artists that are officially black according to the ilx0rfia.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

cuz I bet some of those people that hate "Crazy in Love" are MAGNET editors...

"if magnet is such an underground indie magazine covering such underground indie artists as tom petty and radiohead, tell me why I can buy it in super wal-mart? "

underground /= "indie rock". Yr bringing in other issues here, just to muddy the waters, since you can't defend your point adequately. Nice try though. Tell me which people buy MAGNET at the super wal-mart expecting to read about something BESIDES white guys with guitars...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

like, if I swing into ilx0r and I'm all "oh shit, I just heard the most amazing Delta blues record" then it's all "oh ha ha the white guy likes the blues, how square"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

john i remember when you used to be able to construct an argument out of something other than straw men.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

me too

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

he's turned into the indie rock trife.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

also, J0hn you were the person who started the 'maybe they don't cover black artists cuz they don't like mainstream hip-hop' argument, so don't go all 'ilx officially black' now

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, actually people were pretty congenial on the blues threads.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

shakey - you're the one who keeps saying magnet doesn't cover black artists cuz they're an indie rock magazine so how does saying magnet isn't an indie rock magazine mudddy the waters?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Two things:

1) re chuck's first post, I don't understand how an Out Hud instrumental can be a novelty song aside from the title

2) I'm more nauseated by Urb not including the Chemical Brothers in their 50 Greatest list than this

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

free jazz is marketed in almost the exact same methods and venues as indie rock now (thank you thurston moore/that guy outta homestead/byron colely/the ghost of lester bangs), so if so how does it differ from indie rock and therefore escape shakey mo's "indie rock is largely by and about white people." because a handful of black people are involved in making it? because white people who use hepcat slang from the 60s buy it en masse? why is magnet so scared of investigated the modern idioms originated by black people (but not solely populated by them)?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i.e. so why cover dj shadow and moby at all?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

"scared of investigating"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm Nauseated by the suggestion that the Chemical Brothers are "great".

― jed_e_3 (jed_e_3), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"saying magnet isn't an indie rock magazine mudddy the waters? "

because yr saying they aren't indie rock because they are covering well-known, corporation-backed artists and are available in huge uber-mainstream outlets, which is not the case. Is this going to turn into (yet another) thread about defining "indie rock"? Cuz I don't think it has anything to do with what label it's on or where it's sold, it has to do with what the music sounds like and who it appeals to.

It's fun answering questions. Feel like answering some of mine any time soon? Or are you just gonna hurl snide pseudo-insults at me?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

This seems to be devolving into some kind of a need for a target, a whipping boy. Do we even know, yet, what we mean by "indie rock"? And if we pretend to have a consensus on this, we have to know that "indie rock" is at least partly predicated on a reaction toward the "mainstream" -- ie/ we're gonna listen to something better and smarter than what the "sheep" are listening to... (bear with me, I'm not saying I agree with these sentiments)... Of course, the mainstream was traditionally classic rock / pop and is now hip hop / pop. So all of a sudden you have what appears to be a more overt racial divide, just at a time when indie rock is especially lacking in much, if any, "street" cool or credibility.

You couldn't find an easier target!

This isn't to say that indie rock (or Magnet and its readers) don't deserve this flack. As a predominantly white genre, it still belongs to the wider (read: oppressive) white culture, and its "rebel outsider" stance (like most popular music stances, really) is a disingenuous sham in that context.

(I don't read Magnet, I like a lot of indie rock, and I can't pretend to understand all the racial issues that exist south of our shared border. I mean, I can extrapolate "First Nations" for "African Americans", but the analogy doesn't really work. Interestingly, perhaps, Native kids in Canada gravitate almost exclusively toward hip hop, but then again, so do most suburban white kids, so... um... I dunno.)

Okay, I ran out of steam (not to mention an actual point) there at the end, but just read the stuff I said outside the parentheses.

― David A. (Davant), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

haha - kkkorny indie fukkks! anyhow, I've made my opinion of magnet known here and elsewhere. keep beating up on your strawmen who only listen to beyonce cuz they want to be black and find racism repugnant cuz they wnat black people to like them (does me not like 'ignition (remix)' nearly as much as J0hn mean I don't care if black people like me as much as he does...tune in next week). also continue to keep fooling yourself into thinking racial dynamics plays a larger role in what americans choose to listen to than in what publishers choose to put in their magazines.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

"what americans choose to listen to -- what publishers choose to put in their magazines. "

dood, what are you a moron? These go hand in hand, two sides of the same coin... after all, they're ALL Americans, aren't they?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

For the record, I don't even like MAGNET, but I'll defend they're right to suck on their own terms.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

yes by all means waste rhetorical energy defending something's right to suck.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

kkkorny indie fukkks and morons?

You people are losing each other right now. An opportunity wasted?

― David A. (Davant), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"yes by all means waste rhetorical energy defending something's right to suck."

don't make me get all Voltaire on yr ass.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

heaven forfend.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

ps: for the record, remind me again, how is a magazine that prints 'mike skinner is a wigger' not racist?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

>>re chuck's first post, I don't understand how an Out Hud instrumental can be a novelty song aside from the title<<

Well, they're a novelty BAND as far as I'm concerned. (Dance-rock instrumentals have been novelties ever since the the Ventures, you know?) They're also a dead boring one, as far as I'm concerned, which is neither here nor there. My point, really, is that the Earles guy complained about bands with supposed "schticks" despite last year voting for all these songs with nudge-nudge-wink-wink look-at-me-I'm wearing-a-lampshade-on-my-head jokey TITLES worthy of Weird Al Yankovic or They Might Be Giants or Moxy Fruvous or whoever (yeah, including the Out Hud one.) So he's obviously DRAWN to schtick. (I bet this year he even votes for that lame Me and Guiliani down by the Schoolyard song by that hippie-funk jam band whose singer sounds like the Big Audio Dynamite guy. Who are a novelty band too, obviously.) And given the way said writer piled *so many* titles like that onto his pazz and jop list, he may well carry a big schtick himself.

― chuck, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

ps. for the record, remind me again, how is a maagzine that prints it's tagline as "real music alternatives" and lists moby and dj shadow among its top 50 an "indie rock" magazine by default?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

stop muddying the waters by rebutting the foundation of his argument!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm Nauseated by the suggestion that the Chemical Brothers are "great".
-- jed_e_3 (c_ohar...), August 21st, 2003.

http://hipsterdetritus.blogspot.com/regalspaz.JPG

Chuck: motherfucker better at least speak softly, then. (also the only thing I can bother to be cranky about re !!! is the fact that they're obviously hating on ? and the Mysterians)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:40 (twenty-one years ago)

i guess shakey mo's argument is that since dj shadow appeals more to indie rock guys (since he's in magnet and all) (aka white guys) than hip-hop guys (aka black guys) then he's actually indie rock and not hip-hop at all (which grandmaster flash, davey dmx, bam, code money, jazzy jeff, q-bert and any number of other dj's might be a bit confused by, i'll admit.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, hell, I'M confused by it and i can't even pull off a decent scratch.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

having never heard or even been remotely interested in Mike Skinner, I have no idea if that's racist or not. Ya think VIBE has ever called anyone a "wigga"?

"how is a maagzine that prints it's tagline as "real music alternatives" and lists moby and dj shadow among its top 50 an "indie rock" magazine by default? "

That tagline's pretty meaningless, dontcha think? The only thing it implies is some sort of divorce from the mainstream ("alternatives"), in which case indie rock is definitely an alternative to hip hop (which is *very* mainstream)... and like I said above, I can't defend the inclusion of DJ Shadow on any level, you got me there. As for Moby - you consider that "black" music (or at least a white guy doing a bad imitation of black music)? Cuz it just sounds like techno crap to me, scratchy gospel samples or no. And I said this above too. But thanks for putting words in my mouth, that really makes for a convincing argument doesn't it?

Repetition is fun fun FUN.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

man if q-bert puts out a record and magnet doesn't review it I'll eat my socks

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

b-but where is "demolition pumpkin squeeze musik" on their top fifty?!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, please reconcile the inherent contradiction in your stand re: if people listen to black music it's because it's good, but if they DON'T listen to it it's because they're racist.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

show me where anyone made that stand

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

besides your flipside 'if people don't like black music it's becuz it's not good but if they do like it it's becuz they wanna be black'

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

shakey mo, believe it or not moby was once a reknown rave artiste. raves - at least on the other side of the atlantic where they were first born - were often known to include both black and white people as well as a healthy number of other races. also, the inventors of modern "techno" - juan atkins, kevin saunderson, and derrick may - were all black. but hey, i guess black people don't make black people music either if it's not hip-hop right?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:49 (twenty-one years ago)

To everyone on this thread:

That's right, carry on talking past each other...

― David A. (Davant), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

It's inherent in your argument that MAGNET isn't covering this music because they're racist (as opposed to because they don't listen to it or like it). At the same time, you argue that white people listen to black music (hip-hop in particular) because they like it, and that racial politics plays no role in their buying it.

One does not jibe with the other. Either racial politics play a role in how people approach music or it doesn't - you can't have it both ways.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

reiteration: someone's opinion of 'crazy in love' is more likely to be based on whether they think it's good than on whether they wish they were black. also if you're a magazine that purports to cover 'real music', doesn't adhere to any set of niche or indie ethics, and makes a list of the best albums of the past ten years and includes genres filled with black artists but somehow manages to include only white examples from these genre then you might just be racist.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

also: nobody listens to techno.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

also, continue to pretend that when I said this I in fact said the opposite

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought this issue of magnet was actually better than the last couple. They have real good profiles on Beulah, The Constantines, My Morning Jacket and few others.

I don't really mind the list much at all...other than the Dj Shadown inclusion. That does reek of tokenism...and the worst carpetbagging kind. (What label was Entroducing.. on?)

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

the techno thing totally fucks with shakey mo's "argument" actually because the most common complaint lodged at detroit (and it's followers, to a lesser extent since they usually ARE white) is that by toning down rhythm (or focusing on one type of rhythm, rather than another) they are avoiding "blackness" or "trying to be 'european'" (aka: white.) so are these black people listening to kraftwerk because they wanted to be white or german (two things they could NEVER be, especially how often they reference their own blackness in song titles, interviews, rhetoric) or because they were floored by the music?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

strongo - nobody actually listens to music becuz of the music, they listen to it based on how much they wish they were black

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, dood - are you a moron? of course black kids in detroit wish they were german!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, someone's opinion of DJ Shadow/Moby is more likely to be based on whether they think it's good than on whether they're racist.

"also if you're a magazine that purports to cover 'real music'"

this is a meaningless term (where is the "unreal music"?)

"doesn't adhere to any set of niche or indie ethics"

Oh, I think they do. You think they don't.

"and makes a list of the best albums of the past ten years and includes genres filled with black artists"

I'm confused - are you referring to the (sub)genres of turntablism (Shadow) and techno (Moby)? Two out of 50 is obviously tokenism, not exactly an indicator that they intend to cover a wider range of music than their proscribed audience is interested in (ie, indie rock).

"but somehow manages to include only white examples from these genre then you might just be racist"

Or you might just be a moron and those were the only albums you heard and liked and felt comfortable listing because they sold massively and were also critically acclaimed.

"also, continue to pretend that when I said this I in fact said the opposite "

You've linked that post twice, and I still have no idea what you meant by it.

I gotta go. Carry on.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

noone ever said racism and stupidity can't go hand in hand

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

all racists are in fact evil geniuses who know exactly what they are doing at all times.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

there has never once in the history of the races been an instance of subconscious racism.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

really.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

my baby's grown so ugly.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

if it's a meaningless term why is it their tagline? aren't masthead mottos sort of reserved for the editorial philosophy?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

unreal music = non-indie music

phil sheriden's backpage piece this month clearly breaks down/discusses the split between what magnet covers and everything else. essentially it boiled down to magnet = music people feel personally compelled to make; everything else = music made by robots solely to make money.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Vibe Magazine: "Your Online Urban Community"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

so am I constructing a strawman if I say that Magnet is being held to a higher standard of accountability than magazines not already under fire onthread?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry, "online urban authority," as if it made a difference

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I invoked the whole of American publishing - what more do you want?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:14 (twenty-one years ago)

But other mags aren't being discussed, John. And the reason why Magnet is being held to a high standard of accountability is mainly cuz it does have a clear editorial direction (which 90% of mags don't have), thus it seems fair to judge motivations and angles, simply cuz it seems like the editorial department does (or should that be advertising department?).

And yes, I regret the heading for this thread. It's not fair to say, but I was trying to temper that sentiment with my lede post.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing is that Magnet does cover black artists (hence the free jazz line). They just don't cover artists that are officially black according to the ilx0rfia.

-- J0hn Darn1elle

I had to go away, so I missed a lot of the thread ... But I'm trying to figure out how this bolsters your argument, J0hn. While the first part of your statement may be true (I don't know, haven't read one in a while), the whole premise of the thread is, why didn't any of those artists make their list of "best albums"? Like, why not even some token "free jazz" record on Thrill Jockey or "the dude from Homestead" (haha) or whatever, which their readership is probably aware of anyway? It's just bizarre, really, if what you say is true (that the cover the stuff).

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:18 (twenty-one years ago)

ie. do you really need me to go thru and point out every magazine that suffers from kneejerk racism? if someone starts a thread pointing out how fashion magazines almost never put black faces on the cover and someone defends it with 'these magazines are by and for white people so it's not racist at all' I'll call bullshit on that also, even if people accuse me of wanting to be black or worrying if black people like me.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:18 (twenty-one years ago)

and really, again, (and I think Shakey and I can agree on this), fucking Magnet magazine is not worth this amount of thought (which admittedly ain't much on either side) or passion.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Olympia & Athens: the new united front against the corny racist indie fuxx.

― chester (synkro), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I swear Athens, GA is one of the most segregated cities in America (where the local alt-weekly justifies not covering any issues related to the majority black local non-student population, issues like say police brutality or local ordinances passed to specifically put black clubs out of business, with the arguments 'you can't give "those people" anything' and '"those people" don't buy advertising')

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

1 - White Americans buy music without any consideration of racial politics, they only listen to things because they are GOOD, not because they're a bunch of racist sheep.

I'm still trying to puzzle the motivations of this claim. Really.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

C'mon Ned, I was paraphrasing nnnh oh oh whatever's "argument" re: why do white kids love hiphop (eg, because it's "good", not because they "want to be black", annoy their parents, fantasize about pimps and hos, etc.)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

because it's "good"

*holds up hands frustratedly* But it IS good! Am I missing something here? It's not like most people in the world want to actually wear hairshirts for fuck's sake.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Why can't it be a little bit of both motivations (and others)? Michael Jackson sounds good (c. Thriller) and I like the girl I see on the train who has been talking about him.

(Most people wouldn't know how to pick a good hairshirt anyway!)

― Al Andalous, Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Chester wins

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 21 August 2003 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

ain't that the truth

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

their version of indie rock seems stuck in 1995.

Well, this issue is a look back at the last decade.

It also has an article on Tricky, and a scan of the back issues list shows they've written about George Clinton, Barry Adamson, and Handsome Boy Modeling School.

― j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 22 August 2003 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

All this could have been avoided if Magnet used the tagline "Indie Rock Alternatives." More than anything this Top 60 list is just weird, in that they never identify it as an indie rock list. It's like, NO ONE IN THE WORLD would consider that a decent list of the best albums of the last ten years. I like the policy of not covering a genre if you don't know anything about it, actually, that's a good way to go, but it's not a good idea to say the music you like is better than the stuff you don't understand or care about. Better just to focus on the music you like.

The inclusion of DJ Shadow makes some sense, I mean, he always seemed tied to post-rock to me & his assimilation into the indie rock scene is totally natural. By Moby I don't get -- if you're going to include Moby, why not something like Lauren Hill? Her record has a similar relationship to her genre in terms of how underground or alternative it is.

That said, Magnet does seem stuck in a weird way -- the indie rock audience is branching out in a way they can't seem to grasp (thinking most about electronic music here, which I'm amazed they still don't really cover.)

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:01 (twenty-one years ago)

The inclusion of DJ Shadow makes some sense, I mean, he always seemed tied to post-rock to me & his assimilation into the indie rock scene is totally natural.

How much of that is perception as opposed to anything he actually did?

It seems kinda weird to me that DJ Shadow has become (and I think this is been going on for a while now) the whipping-boy of hiphop gentrification around here. If people don't like his music, fine (even if I don't get their reasoning for not liking it), but it's not like he's out to like move all the black people out of Bed-Stuy or something*. Sheesh.

*that's my job.

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 02:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the amount of strawmen on this thread is going to start a fire sooner or later.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:15 (twenty-one years ago)

only if you brought matches.

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 02:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Shadow did beats for Paris

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

(the MC, not the city)
(well, maybe the city, like on tour or something)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

as long as it ain't the Hilton sister everything's okily dokily

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah I know he did, but does Paris have "hooks?" Wait, he's a "political" rapper right? How can that be any "fun?" It's too "undie" and "corny" for me.

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

sleeping with the enemy is a great album.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i really don't understand still how calling out a tokenist pick in a magazine = turning someone into the whipping-boy of hiphop gentrification, but i suspect i never will.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

shakey you don't get that everyone AGREES that racial politics plays a role in how people approach music.

for example that magnet's racial politics are part of why it avoids black people.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

jess it's not the one mention on this thread, it's the multiple threads I've seen around here that make Shadow out to be some sort of villain.

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 02:46 (twenty-one years ago)

like when I went on about how I like diminishing returns pt. 2 more than pt. 1?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

uh, no.

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

or because i said i didn't understand the idea of hip-hop without hooks?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

that's why pt. 2 is better than pt. 1 (hippies without hooks > hip-hop without hooks)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I know it's been said upthread, but this isn't surprising or wrongish to me. The last time I looked at Magnet, it was white rock music. If there was a band like Bad Brains around now, Magnet would feature a little "black rock," too. I sure as hell wouldn't pick up the Source and expect to find a review of the Ravonettes (btw, that band is terrible).

― Scaredy cat (Natola), Friday, 22 August 2003 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

yall want to tell me im hiphop becase im a fuckikn racist to my face?!!? fuck ilm

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 04:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Nobody's a racist, unless they're a racist. It's no more possible or simple to discern hidden racism in your average indie rocker than it is to discern hidden racism in normal life. Overt racism, on the other hand, is simple, easy -- it's obvious and it's wrong. Duh. Yet, in one very mundane sense, we're all racists, of course -- since we judge people/ situations/ genres/ scenarios/ at least partly along racial lines... hence this entire thread (and everyone in it). That's not the shameful part. Nah, the shameful part is the denial and the defensiveness. The holier-than-thou bullshit that's been spread all over this thread.

And what is it about predominantly white ILM (I said "predominantly") that seems to want to out every fucker as a racist, every obvious target. Isn't it time we stopped rooting out the boogeyman's tiny henchmen everywhere and went after the fucking real problem with the world?

There's some twisted guilt issues goin' on here, I tell ya.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, yeah, and I have to include myself now, in the holier-than-thou bullshit sense. Oh well.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

since both examples you point out are people going after the media (and not indie rockers)(name one indie rocker called racist on this thread) as racist, maybe you can point how the media isn't racist or how it isn't part of the fucking real problem in the world

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:21 (twenty-one years ago)

fuckin white indie liberal sayign RACISM DOSNT EXIST and stupid pointless hatin on pro america patriots fuck you YOU ARE THE PROBELM WITH THE WORLD

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:21 (twenty-one years ago)

"racism doesnt exist at all none of my all white friends every say anything racist....

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:23 (twenty-one years ago)

those poor white ppl sure love their flags and shit though!!!! fuckers!!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:23 (twenty-one years ago)

im sorry im goin now i hate this thread its just fucked up to say theres no racism except 'simple easy' racists and then blame problems opn pro flag ppl!! fuck you

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha!

You have issues.

"Racism doesn't exist?" What solar system do you float so untainted in?

No, you (purposely?) misunderstood -- if you are American, and you're doing nothing to stop that chickenhawk cunt in the White House from spreading his sick breed of right wing fundamentalism and short-termist elitist greed, you are part of the problem, my friend. The flag was merely a symbol, since there isn't an all-encompassing "United States of America" website to conveniently link to.

Any way you can debate without resorting to "fuck you", by the way? Makes you sound like a bit of a dickhead, to be honest.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:34 (twenty-one years ago)

fuck you

― trife (simon_tr), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Looks like I struck a nerve.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)

nice one dude!

― s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, maybe. But I'm still trying to figure out how to condemn self-righteousness without, um, coming off as self-righteous.

Fucking conundrum. ;-)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:40 (twenty-one years ago)

David you're the one implying racism doesn't exist (cept 'when it exists' ie. simple easy racists) ie. YOU'RE THE PROBLEM

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:40 (twenty-one years ago)

― s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:40 (twenty-one years ago)

ie. what solar system does saying attacking the media for being racist is nitpicking and saying flag wavers are the real problem make sense?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Blount, tell me how I "implied racism doesn't exist". Please.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean your entire 'attacking racism = being holier than thou' reeks of the smug elitism you supposedly decry

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:44 (twenty-one years ago)

tiny fucking boogeymen

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:45 (twenty-one years ago)

the whole 'we're all racists and the shameful part is denying it and holier than thou' is sooooo dinesh d'souza

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe you'd like to quote some more rightwing thinktanks now David

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"If there even is a real problem, everyone's the problem and the way we keep arguing ain't no one gonna solve it." - nickalicious circa 1998

"When I got a problem, a problem's got a problem 'til it's gone." - ol' dirt mcgirt circa 2001

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I acknowledged that I was coming across just as self-righteously as those I complained about, so...

But "attacking racism" needs to be a lot more nuanced than searching for it in either a) all the innocuous places and b) in the most obvious places. I realise this must sound contradictory, but the kinds of racism that need to be identified and called out are in the middle ground -- the smug, middle class, self-possessed parts of our (Western) world. Not everyone realises that they're a racist, you know.

And the flag thing was not a real reference to flag-waving, but to the US and its racist domestic and foreign policies. I was trying to widen the discourse, and say: if you're gonna go after racism, why focus down your laser beam to fucking Magnet, for fuck's sake? Even the corporate mag, Rolling Stone (such an obvious target) don't mean shit in the wider world, right?

Maybe trife misunderstood me (like I said)?

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

TRIFE IN MISUNDERSTANDING SOMEONE SHAWKUH!!!!

― nuttsack proletariat mock teenage mutant ninja turtle soup nazi (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:53 (twenty-one years ago)

why do anything, like, ever?!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:53 (twenty-one years ago)

< /full of ennui>

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:53 (twenty-one years ago)

and liquor

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago)

why focus on just the United States? why not go after the West as a whole?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago)

why focus on the West? why not go after humanity as a whole?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago)

why start thread's about a trend at one magazine and talk about that? why not talk about everything bad at once?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"Do the Evolution" video to thread!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:56 (twenty-one years ago)

why is a crooked letter that will never be straight?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:56 (twenty-one years ago)

"the kinds of racism that need to be identified and called out are in the middle ground -- the smug, middle class, self-possessed parts of our (Western) world" = "focus down your laser beam to fucking Magnet" cuz it's PART OF THE PROBLEM

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

David: why ever have conversations about specific things?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Why not focus on the US? Their record with regards to racism hasn't exactly been exemplary, and currently they're the dominant nation on the planet. It's just funny to see all this invective and spleen unleashed on... um... Magnet. By Americans. Who could do something about their motherfucking governement if they'd stick their heads above the parapet and stop squabbling among themselves. See what I mean?

By the way, I've never even read Magnet, so this isn't me being all defensive and shit. At least on that level. ;-)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm noticing a bit of a trend here on old ilm this evening.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

"this evening"

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:00 (twenty-one years ago)

you always notice a bit of a trend here on old ilm every evening!

― nih kill is shoosh (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:00 (twenty-one years ago)

aw when did you rename yrself cinniblount? that's cute!

(what's this thread about again?)

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago)

bright eyes

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:03 (twenty-one years ago)

it's like at the end of he-man when orko would fall over or something

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:06 (twenty-one years ago)

David - why not focus on the West as a whole?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave - do you think arguing about Magnet is somehow preventing or distracting us from changing our government? is arguing with us about Magnet preventing you from doing the same?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean if you're from any western nation you've got just as much blood on your hands as we do

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:10 (twenty-one years ago)

also, can you tell me why a thread about Magnet Magazine shouldn't be about Magnet Magazine?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean it's not like someone started a thread about George Bush and it got deflected into a debate about Magnet (it is like someone started a thread about Magnet and then someone said 'you shouldn't talk about racism in the media, you should talk about George Bush - as if one precluded the other)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:13 (twenty-one years ago)

there can be no art after auschwitz, james.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:14 (twenty-one years ago)

trudat

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Yet, in one very mundane sense, we're all racists, of course -- since we judge people/ situations/ genres/ scenarios/ at least partly along racial lines... hence this entire thread (and everyone in it). That's not the shameful part. Nah, the shameful part is the denial and the defensiveness. The holier-than-thou bullshit that's been spread all over this thread.

This is what I originally said. I don't see how it could be misunderstood. If I'd stopped after the words "hence this entire thread (and everyone in it)", I could see it, but I didn't stop there. The denial part is key. We're all racists (it's the human condition, blah blah), but if we're overt, well, it's obvious and people can position themselves accordingly, but if we deny it, that shit festers and makes us defensive, self-righteous, and always on the lookout for the taint of racism in others -- ie/ guilty, and therefore quick to pass judgement on those who share the traits we loathe in ourselves. Make sense?

Apologies, I guess, for the persistence, but I fucking hate misunderstandings.

I'm really only here because I love music. I don't give a shit about Magnet, though.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I wish certain people would try to discuss these things with just a hint of civility. It's pretty unpleasant to read an exchange of ideas that looks, from a distance, roughly like this:

"Damn racist indie tokenism!"
"Fuck you, it's an indie rock list!"
"Fuck you, racist!"
"Fuck you, knee-jerk anti-indie guy!"
"No, FUCK YOU RACIST!!!!"
"No, FUCK YOU!!!"

etc ad infinitum.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:15 (twenty-one years ago)

that's rock n roll for ya

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

* cue g'n'f'n'r's "get in the ring" *

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, yeah. I tried to say that. Even way earlier in the thread.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

ideas are even more unpleasant up close, i find.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

well i'm glad we sorted that out

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, spleen-venting for the sake of it is what's unpleasant.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Oops, forgot the emoticon ;-)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-one years ago)

riiiiight

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Call me clueless, but that just links to some goofy DMB thread. What am I missing?

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:26 (twenty-one years ago)

absolutely nothing i'd wager

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha!

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:27 (twenty-one years ago)

every rightwing thinktank position paper on racism ever

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:33 (twenty-one years ago)

this rather

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Nope, sorry.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean isn't saying "I could give a fuck about Magnet" so the discussion will stop being about Magnet on a thread ABOUT Magnet a bit disningenous?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:37 (twenty-one years ago)

tell me how it's different than yer standard dinesh d'souza fare

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, sure. Except that wasn't my original point. That last "I couldn't give a fuck about Magnet" was in the interests of assuring you I didn't have some connection with that mag, that's all. But I don't subscribe to "right wing think tank" views on racism, or on anything, for that matter.

(Sorry, I don't know who dinesh d'souza is.)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:41 (twenty-one years ago)

if you don't subscribe to them why do you espouse them?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, since you wanna look at the 'bigger picture' why focus your laser beam on shameful holier than thouisms attacking racism in the media instead of maybe attacking racism in the media?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

again, this=every rightwing thinktank paper on racism ever

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

in talkradio speak 'liberal's are the real racists cuz they don't admit they're racists!'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:45 (twenty-one years ago)

No, it isn't. Just because you keep saying it is, doesn't make it so.

(Can I just add that you don't seem all that interested in a reasonable discourse. You come across as kind of hostile, to be honest. Why?)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

although, your 'the only racism to worry about is overt racism, duh' conclusion is below them I'll admit

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

how am I not interested in reasonable discourse? you're the one who won't respond to a single one of my questions

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:47 (twenty-one years ago)

and any hostility unintended obv.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Your talkradio down there is virulent. They use the word "liberal" as a fucking pejorative for fuck's sake!

But, yeah, sure, people who deny their worst natures are often dangerous. What's wrong with that? (Unshackle it from American talkradio shows for a minute.)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:49 (twenty-one years ago)

how is attacking the media for being racist denying their worst natures?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Jess, I don't see how your learing to write posts with more than one line would somehow make your ideas look more attractive. You certainly would antagonize less people, though.

The problem with this whole Magnet-ignoring-black-people argument is that DJ Shadow and Moby crossed over into the indie market in those years, and Grandmaster Flash/Juan Atkins didn't. That crossover was at least partly the result of systemic racism somewhere down the line, but can we castigate the editors of Magnet for filling their list with things that their audience (and they) most likely WERE listening to in the last ten years (as opposed to "should have been")?

― Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

although, your 'the only racism to worry about is overt racism, duh' conclusion is below them I'll admit

Huh? That's not what I said. Not even fucking close.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoa, that post is completely loaded - who's the audience of Magnet?

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 22 August 2003 06:52 (twenty-one years ago)

how is attacking the media for being racist denying their worst natures?

It's not. You're conflating two different things I've said.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:53 (twenty-one years ago)

PLUS I'm not sure that Grandmaster Flash released much of anything worht considering in the last 10 years, dude.

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 22 August 2003 06:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave - I think it's fair to criticise a media source for that, esp. when the ommissions (which combined with the 'Mike Skinner is a wigger' remark, which is what really disgusts me, if only cuz it's soooo par for the course for Magnet) point to a larger trend.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Dieter read the blurb that went with the Shadow - it denyed that Flash (or any other DJs) EVER release anything of worth prior to Endtroducing

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoa, that post is completely loaded - who's the audience of Magnet?

Indie rockers.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, not to invoke Pitchfork as a model, but since they have the same audience as 'indierock' Magnet (even more specifically indie in fact - no Tom Petty writeups) how come they're able to be soooooooo much more "diverse"?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:58 (twenty-one years ago)

David A. - I meant to write 'how is attacking the media for being racist denying out worst natures' but anyways

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Alright, I can't comment on the Mike Skinner remark, as I didn't read it, but it certainly sounds racist, yeah. I only came on board in this thread to wonder why the invective, why the whole "reds under the bed" (sorry, inappropriate analogy there) paranoia, and the need to out racism wherever we may find it. It just comes across as a McCarthy-like crusade. I mean, we live our actual (non-internet message board) lives to do that kind of thing... and we damn well have to pick our battles, or we'd be in conflict 24/7, right?

(By the way, i'm not ignoring your questions, but I don't type particularly fast, and by the time I'm done, there's usually about three or four of your one-line posts, so I just hit Submit, what the fuck.)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:04 (twenty-one years ago)

fair enough!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, I hate right wing think tanks.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:07 (twenty-one years ago)

And I hardly ever use the word "hate".

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, there's alot of magazines I'd boycott my newsstand for stocking before Magnet (ALOT of magazines)(not that I would ever boycott my newsstand for stocking a magazine)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:09 (twenty-one years ago)

b: pfork editors can at least be credited with trying to stretch their audience's boundaries, even if what they end up doing half the time is exposing the audience's limitations. admittedly if magnet doesn't try to do that with this list, then it isn't a very interesting feature (basically "here's what you all used to like, that most of you already own"), but not inherently racist - just kinda dumb. it's tantamount to saying that anyone who bought Endtroducing at the time, and no other rap albums, is a racist.

on the other hand, in light of the offensive Skinner comment, they still might be a bunch of fucking racists. drawing that conclusion based on the list alone is what i object to.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave M, that last sentence is basically what I'm trying to say, too.

And Blount, yeah. The thing that I didn't understand was the unwillingness on the part of a few posters in this thread to give the "other side" the benefit of the doubt. I always try -- don't always succeed -- to avoid meanspiritedness in these kinds of arguments (I think I failed when I called trife a dickhead, though), because we can often find that, say, Shaky Mo Collier and strongo hulkington (to pick two names at random) are closer than we might assume.

That, or was just bored and felt like taking a swipe at Americans. ;-)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Dieter read the blurb...

Having actually bothered to trawl through the thread now - maybe it's because 'whiteness' is not really considered a legitimate racial category in general. It's considered 'the standard', but also presented as invisible - therefore, a Magnet list *must* by definition be all-inclusive, i.e. indistinguishable.

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Which sounds like institutional racism. But institutional racism is much bigger than Magnet, so I wonder about all the energy expended on it here. Not saying it's wrong, but I wonder about the point of it.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:21 (twenty-one years ago)

(Not to start the whole ball rolling again, or anything.)

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:22 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, I vaguely noted 'American publishing' as a whole (and to be honest hardly just American - I doubt Europeon fashion mags employ any more minority models than American fashion mags, although I guess they could vaguely justify it more since saying 'english = white' isn't quite as ridiculously offensive as saying 'american = white' (it's still ridiculously offensive)), but it was more to note that we weren't just picking on Magnet for the sake of picking on Magnet.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

and the energy expended here part is just I'm full of much huff and much puff

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure about all the shouting up top about indie=white and hiphop=black - why am I so reluctant to follow this logic?

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:30 (twenty-one years ago)

(Not to start the whole ball rolling again, or anything.)

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh.

And yes, English = white is still ridiculously offensive.

But I wonder if you could make a better case for indie = white than for hip hop = black?

But obviously, neither is exclusively so.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:41 (twenty-one years ago)

It amazes me that Strongo can get so het up about Magnet magazine supposed racism yet be quite happy dancing round his living room to songs abour burning queers.

(see dancehall thread)

― MIkeB, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:44 (twenty-one years ago)

'Why not go after the West as a whole'?

Because it's the goddamn USA and their fuckin' racial problems that end up dominating every other fucking thread! Sort it out for fuck's sake. Pay the goddamn reparations. Affirmative actionize all over the place. or else build a goddamn wall around your fuckin' scary out-of-control Frankenstein behemoth of a fucked-up country and quit fuckin' hogging everything! Do you realise how much space and bandwith and oxygen you fat fucks take up going on and on about your fantastically exceptional republic?

― dave q, Friday, 22 August 2003 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, Blount's fictitious anecdote re 'Mexican domination' indicates how the rest of the world feels about your goddamn flags everywhere, they might as well be the Stars'n'Bars as far as the rest of the world is concerned! (*applies for pilots licence*)

― dave q, Friday, 22 August 2003 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i think what i love more than anything else on ilm is when someone who i can't remember a single thing - idea or not - they've posted to this board comes in and begins casting aspersions on other peoples - not even necessarily my own - ideas.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

it's like the semi-regular instance of when a lurker pops up and begins castigating the level of argument around here. either put up or shut up, motherfuckers.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

as for the dancehall comment, if you read (MANY) of the threads about dancehall and hip-hop on ilm you'll notice me registering my CONFUSION AND REGRET over the lyrical content while enjoying the music (but i guess that's why you didn't post a link.) also, being at least (partly) queer helps (but then again no one ever said i was a self-hater.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i am just so fucking SICK of the pedantry obsessed den mothers of this board who's sole contribution is to corral thought, correct "mistakes", and puff up their own sense of self-satisfaction.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

The argument that listening to something (or even dancing to something) means agreeing with it seems more specious with every passing day.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Magnet is not a magazine I read, so could some tell me what were Magnet's Top 60 albums of their lifetime - i am curious to see what rubbish and maybe a few gems they have dug up.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess if you're listening to something on headphones, you can choose to ignore whatever offensive lyrics there may be - but if you're playing something such that other people can overhear it, I think it would be understandable for people to take offense to hearing certain lyrics, and it would be natural for them to assume that you're at least not completely opposed to those sentiments.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:07 (twenty-one years ago)

does anyone from ilm live in my bedroom?!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

The argument that listening to something (or even dancing to something) means agreeing with it seems more specious with every passing day.

But surely the crux behind the original post, and some of the later ones, is that not listening to something means disagreeing with it?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i never listen to music in my living room. i'd love to but my roommates are too busying placing godawful eurotrance while they play their snowboarding video games.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd have though that if you have the sort of filter that lets you enjoy/dance to songs with virulently hateful homophopic lyrics the sort of mild racism by omission(if that) of Magnet would be so under your radar you wouldn't have to spend 50 posts complaining about it.

― MikeB, Friday, 22 August 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

so, person who i've never seen post here before, what do YOU listen to? (as if we all didn't know already, but humor me.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Dom maybe, I skimmed most of this thread, I just think generally that it's nonsense to assume that listening to something means agreeing.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i.e. shakey you don't get that everyone AGREES that racial politics plays a role in how people approach music.
for example that magnet's racial politics are part of why it avoids black people.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

does anyone from ilm live in my bedroom?!

Fair enough. My point wasn't particularly directed at you, Jess. It was just a general observation in response to Tom's post.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know if it's so easy to sever the tie between listening to something and agreeing with it. If I walked through a policeman's convention blasting "Fuck Tha Police" on my boombox, and one of the cops came up to me and said they were offended, wouldn't it seem a bit disingenuous of me to say, "Oh I don't listen to the lyrics"?

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i have actually become highly conscious of what i play, and when, now that we are living with roommates. especially because they're the type of kids for whom any enjoyment of black culture comes with such violent worries about "appropriation" that there is no enjoyment of black culture in the end anyway. (the type of indie kids for whom when i put a hip-hop song on a mix cd for nancy that i'm "making fun".) i don't think there was a single piece of art produced by a black person in this house before we moved in (except, y'know, like a bell hooks book or some such.) which is just them being afraid of, well, everything, but to the naked eye could certainly smack of racism. at least seperatism.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

obviously, o. nate is right: context is everything. i'm not going to go drop "log on" at an olympia club night for a very good reason.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a difference between being sensitive to people's sensibilities (i.e. politeness) and their perception of you and their perception of you actually being right though.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i think what i describe above is far more common with white indie kids, especially here, than this thread would lead you to believe: their kindly liberalism, rather than any over or covert racism, leads them to be terrified of engaging with black culture, popular or otherwise. (as if they shitty rock music they love so much didn't come from that same pesky racial miscegenation. albeit whittled down to the whitest of influences, cf. hardcore.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i worry about my engagement with black pop culture too - as a fan of black british dance music, there's a twofold layer of cultural distance i have to work through there - but once i've managed to find a way to be comfortable with it i don't avoid it entirely out of some guilt-induced anhedonia.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The argument that listening to something (or even dancing to something) means agreeing with it seems more specious with every passing day.

Oddly enough, I think this also defends indie without meaning to!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

You mean Moby's not black? I feel so decieved.

― christoff (christoff), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The Magnet list:

60. The Shins - Oh, Inverted World
59. Grifters - Crappin' You Negative
58. Shellac - At Action Park
57. New Pornographers - Electric Version
56. JSBX - Orange
55. Pernice Brothers - Overcome By Happiness
54. Whiskeytown - Stangers Almanac
53. Wrens - The Meadowlands
52. Helium - The Magic City
51. Pulp - Different Class
50. Girls Against Boys - Venus Luxure No. 1 Baby
49. Jawbox - For Your Own Special Sweetheart
48. Stereolab - Mars Audiac Quintet
47. Urge Overkill - Saturation
46. Idlewild - 100 Broken Windows
45. Afghan Whigs - Gentlemen
44. Air - The Virgin Suicides
43. PJ Harvey - To Bring You My Love
42. Unwound - Repetition
41. Bright Eyes - Letting Off the Happiness
40. Dandy Warhols - Thirteen Tales From Urban Bohemia
39. Polvo - Exploded Drawing
38. GY!BE - f#a#
37. Sugar - File Under: Easy Listening
36. Beta Band - The Three E.P.'s
35. Fugazi - In On The Killtaker
34. Interpol - Turn On the Bright Lights
33. Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
32. Sunny Day Real Estate - Diary
31. Built to Spill - Perfect From Now On
30. Queens of the Stone Age - S/T
29. Spoon - A Series of Sneaks
28. Steve Earle - Transcendental Blues
27. Beck - Mutations
26. Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels On A Gravel Road
25. DJ Shadow - Endtroducing
24. White Stripes - White Blood Cells
23. Flaming Lips - The Soft Bulletin
22. Magnetic Fields - 69 Love Songs
21. Moby - Play
20. R.E.M. - New Adventures In Hi-Fi
19. The Strokes - Is This It
18. Dirty Three - Horse Stories
17. Weezer - Pinkerton
16. Mercury Rev - Deserter's Songs
15. Ween - White Pepper
14. Grandaddy - The Sophtware Slump
13. Calexico - The Black Light
12. Elliott Smith - XO
11. Wilco - Summerteeth
10. tortoise- millions now living will never die
9. Pavement- crooked rain, crooked rain
8. Verve- Urban hyms
7. yo la tengo- I can hear the heart beating as one
6. the breeders- Last Splash
5. belle and sebastian- if you're feeling sinister
4. Radiohead- OK computer
3. Guided by Voices-Alien Lanes
2. Nirvana- In Utero
1. Neutral Milk Hotel- In the Aeroplane over the sea

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm even more offended than i was before.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but what you don't know is that next months they'll have THE "OTHER" LIST with all those "other" people...

...and Ruben from American Idol will be one the Covah!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

spilled my coffee.
that should've read

Yeah, but what you don't know is that next months issue will have THE "OTHER" LIST with all those "other" people...

...and Ruben from American Idol will be on the Covah!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps one unintentional side-effect of this thread is that it makes Pitchfork look like paragons of open-mindedness and broadness of taste by comparison.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

their daily singles round up is quietly rendering their newfound broadness of taste irrelevant, howwever.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

How is that? I would have thought that the singles round-up would serve as confirmation of their new broadness of taste.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

the evidence refutes the concept, i think.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(they're writing about "new" stuff but in the same boring, joy-drained, half-assed pitchfork way.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno - how is that "Pop Shit" blurb any more joy-less than a blurb that would run in the Voice or wherever?

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

a quick scan of the list - i have less than 10 of those albums, i have no desire ever to listen to most of the others.

is magnet magazine permanently aimed at 20 - 25 years old american college/ Bachelor of Arts graduate types with nerd black glasses, wear cords, into poetry, buying yo la tengo/ malkmus/ guided by voices/ elliott smith records on day of release? do these people still exist in 2003?

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)

No Martin, Magnet is aimed at 30 - 35 years old american college/ Bachelor of Arts graduate types with nerd black glasses, wear cords, into poetry, buying yo la tengo/ malkmus/ guided by voices/ elliott smith records on day of release.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

you know, I fucking hate Slayer.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-one years ago)

surely they must have moved on/developed in their 20s? do you know Magnet clone people like this in their 30s?

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Even if this was menant to be an indie rock list it's still craptastic. And that's all I'm saying.

― Larcole (Nicole), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I do wish Jess had posted what he did about indie kids' fear of wrongful appropriation re black culture a lot earlier, because I think it says what he and Blount were trying to without being kneejerky or assholish about it (and yes, you're fucking right you guys were being assholes, whether I agreed with you or not). I remember feeling/thinking that way once (for about ten minutes, but still)--"I'm not going to be like those idiots I go to high school with who listen to gangsta rap or 'act black,' I'm smarter than that." and of course it took me a minute to realize that, duh, I was acting just as stupid as I was accusing them of being by adopting this silent-superiority stance over them.

not once did any of this make me think, then or now, that Shellac, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, Whiskeytown, Urge Overkill, Bright Eyes, Interpol, Sunny Day Real Estate, Dirty Three, Weezer, Ween, Elliott Smith, Wilco, or Tortoise were worth a good goddamn.

also, if Moby is the token dance act, what the fuck is Air doing on that list? (sorry, I should've noticed it, too)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

57. New Pornographers - Electric Version
56. JSBX - Orange - Might be fun to hear....once.
54. Whiskeytown - Stangers Almanac - Ick.
51. Pulp - Different Class - Wouldn't I have to be more of an anglophiliac posuer to even think about this record?
48. Stereolab - Mars Audiac Quintet - I already have a directory full of midi files, thank you.
47. Urge Overkill - Saturation - this might be fun to hear...three times.
45. Afghan Whigs - Gentlemen - I own this one, but have yet to actually listen to it.
43. PJ Harvey - To Bring You My Love - Possibly...
41. Bright Eyes - Letting Off the Happiness - Ick.
40. Dandy Warhols - Thirteen Tales From Urban Bohemia - Might be fun.
38. GY!BE - f#a# - Bah!
34. Interpol - Turn On the Bright Lights
33. Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream - waaaaaay over-rated.
27. Beck - Mutations - also, waaaaaaay over-rated
25. DJ Shadow - Endtroducing
24. White Stripes - White Blood Cells - I wasn't impressed with anything they've done (well...okay...Seven Nation Army is catchy.)
23. Flaming Lips - The Soft Bulletin - Bah!
21. Moby - Play
20. REM - New Adventures In Hi-Fi - ICK!!
19. The Strokes - Is This It - see White Stripes above (well...okay...This Modern World is catchy. But it was catchier when the the Jam did it the first time.)
17. Weezer - Pinkerton - Bah!
15. Ween - White Pepper - waaaaaaay over-rated.
9. Pavement- crooked rain, crooked rain - Ick...and overrated.
6. the breeders - Last Splash - have it, like it, but rarely listen to it.
4. Radiohead - OK computer - BAH!! (COUGH!)
3. Guided by Voices - Alien Lanes - Ick, Bah, Overrated.
2. Nirvana - In Utero - I HHHAAAAYYTE this record with an unholy passion that burns with the heat of a billion suns. Especially the censored version.
1. Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane over the sea - Why...why...why does this record keep getting bigged up? Is it just there so they wouldn't put the obvious Nirvana record at #1?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

anyone know why Pete Yorn (and to a lesser extent, Tom Petty) was on the cover a month or two ago? Way more surprising than any alleged subconscious racism (I'm surprised people are ramblin' on about that; from my own experiences with indie ROCK, it's a very identity-based scene, not necessarily a musical one. The only rappers with a CHANCE of appearing would be the Roots, De La Soul or maybe some Def Jux deal, all of which would smack of obvious tokenism. Plus any mag that puts GBV that high on their chart clearly is less than interested in mad beats).

Air is a dance act?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

surely they must have moved on/developed in their 20s? do you know Magnet clone people like this in their 30s?

Most people "move on" by not paying attention to music any longer, raising kids, going to see REM when they're in town, etc. For those who hand on to some ida of alternative music there is Magnet (& yes I do know people like this.)

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Magnet Magazine: "Black people do not exist"::ILX: "30 - 35 years old american college/ Bachelor of Arts graduate types with nerd black glasses, wear cords, into poetry, buying yo la tengo/ malkmus/ guided by voices/ elliott smith records on day of release do not exist"

― hstencil, Friday, 22 August 2003 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

anyone know why Pete Yorn (and to a lesser extent, Tom Petty) was on the cover a month or two ago?

Magazines generally live or die based on newsstand sales. The Magnet folx probably chose these guys over more obscure artists in the hope of expanding their readership. (A number of my female friends whose music taste is normally pretty good think Pete Yorn is hot. I value my friends too much to ask them what sort of crack they're on to believe that.)

― j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 22 August 2003 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Matos: duh, you can't dance to Air! Pfthshshhh.*

I like Mutations okay, but cuhMAWN -- it's the second-least-fun(ky) album in Beck's whole catalogue. Of course, if they picked one of the records where he raps (or attempts to) or holds a leafblower to a tape recorder or duets with Chris Ballew (who, being from Presidents of the United States of America, is probably a very high-profile Indie Embarrassment figure), they would have a hard time sleeping at night what with all the irony-fear.

Finally: Neutral Milk Hotel = best album of the last ten y-- (commits suicide)

*sarcasm

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I like NMH but its first-placement sez it all

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 22 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

maaaaybe the best album to come out of Athens in the past ten years (maybe)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 23:46 (twenty-one years ago)

dunno, I like that self-titled Glands record a lot.

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 23 August 2003 02:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Urgh!! Look you fuckhead, it's THE MODERN AGE. Do you see that? The name of the song is "The Modern Age"!!!!! THE JAM DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MODERN AGE, NOR DO THE STOOGES OR TELEVISION, AND SURE AS SHIT NOT THE BLOODY VELVET UNDERGROUND SO WOULD ALL YOU SNOBBY ROCK CRITIC TYPES PLEASE STOP COMPARING THEM TO THE STROKES BECAUSE THE STROKES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THAT. THANK YOU. And saying things like "Bah!," "Ick!," and "Overrated!" don't fucking tell me anything!!

And about this whole black thing, Jesus fucking Christ Magnet is a fucking indie rock magazine!! How many black people do YOU know out there that play indie rock music?? TWO!?!?!? I mean, fuck, they don't call it "white noise" for nothing. Besides, Magnet can put anyone on their list that it bloody well wants to. It's THEIR list!! You wanna put black people on your list, go right a-fucking-head.

― MisterSnrub, Saturday, 23 August 2003 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

they don't call it "white noise" for nothing.
"White Noise" is a technical term used by acoustic scientists. It has no racial dimention to it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

haha - Lester Bangs' "The White Noise Supremacists" and Sasha Frere-Jones' "The White Noise Supremacists II" to thread!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

"White Noise" is a technical term used by acoustic scientists. It has no racial dimention other than the fevered imaginations of Bangs, Frere-Jones, and possibly the dude from Skrewdriver.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

< /SERVICE PATCH>

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh.

― Mister Snrub (MisterSnrub), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:28 (twenty-one years ago)

this place gets dumber now by the fucking second.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-one years ago)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Saturday, 23 August 2003 06:25 (twenty-one years ago)

dude, where's my carbureator dung?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 August 2003 06:26 (twenty-one years ago)

jess sometimes you sound like dick cheney if he were noisily lamenting the decline of ethical standards in the white house.

― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 24 August 2003 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)

amateurist sometimes you sound like an 80 year old in the body of a 25 year old.

by sometimes, i mean all the time.

this place isn't just stupid it's fucking dead.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 24 August 2003 04:57 (twenty-one years ago)

you're welcome, nay encouraged, to add some trousers to that mouth and leave

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Sunday, 24 August 2003 04:59 (twenty-one years ago)

amateurist sometimes you sound like an 80 year old in the body of a 25 year old.

i take this as a compliment!

― amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 24 August 2003 05:00 (twenty-one years ago)

jim, last and final time, until you plan on adding something (ANYTHING) to the discussion (ANY DISCUSSION) please fuck off (FUCK OFF.) thanx, the mgmt.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 24 August 2003 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, what is it? there's not enough threads on tweepop 7"s so you have to fill your days gadflying to every and any thread in order to pull a hstencil and add some snappy retort (i hesitate to call them witticisms) to anything and everything i say?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 24 August 2003 06:53 (twenty-one years ago)

much in the same way you absolutely have to turn nasty and insulting on every goddamn thread? i mean really, you never have any problem stating at length what you hate about this place, so why don't you fucking leave? or at least stop being such a cunt all the time?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Sunday, 24 August 2003 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

and i don't really think that your point-scoring style of argument has ever added anything to any discussion.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Sunday, 24 August 2003 07:12 (twenty-one years ago)

well, length.

(ps what the fuck is with that list? its like the BLANDEST albums of the past 60 years. i thought of an analogy for wilco that works here too. you know when you eat greasy food and then you shit but its so greasy you hardly notice that you've done so. and then you wonder if you actually did coz you aren't sure? yeah this list is like that. [i think i stole this analogy from someone maybe])

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 24 August 2003 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

esoj OTM.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 24 August 2003 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

'Saturation' over 'Exit the Dragon'!!!!?

― dave q, Monday, 25 August 2003 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Dumbest fucking conspiracyist thread ever.

I am convinced that some people wake up, get out of bed, and wander the world looking for racism/bigotry all day long. These people are obsessed with groups and the vain proportion of each in every situation. Especially if it suits their political worldview.

And of course this thread jackhammers the point that the same people obsessed with how many blacks appear in Magnet are the same ones obsessed with conveniently ascribing prejudices and labels to everything else. It's kind of hideous, really.

Anyone who reads Magnet will not be surprised of the albums on this list. Or, as the subhead fucking reads: "Context is everything...this is our list." Some of the reviews may be shit, but getting your panties in a knot over the lack of black people is an ignorant waste of time.

― don weiner, Monday, 25 August 2003 11:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Jess you know I love you but esoj has a point when he refers to yr point-scoring style of argt., and your investment in the case against All Indie Rock Ever is clouding you somedel here

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 25 August 2003 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

the list maybe bland (it is to me bcz that's not the music i like) but i wouldn't be surprised that 99% of its readership were appluding it (come on, we've all read bits of pfork board).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Ultimately, getting upset about the lack of black artists in Magnet magazine is akin to getting upset about the lack of potatoes in a strawberry shake.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a guy I work with who subscribes to Magnet. He's 25. BA in English. Contemplating grad school. Hipster black glasses. Cords. Huge poetry fan (Ashbery, O'Hara, etc.). Favorite bands probably Superchunk, Wilco, Yo La Tengo, in that order. Yep, they exist.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Only on Ilx.

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Monday, 25 August 2003 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Only on ILX what, Ben?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Only on ILX would people think that this type doesn't exist? Yeah, I thought it was odd, too. I can think of several other friends that don't fit the mold as easily as my co-worker, but are close.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

jaymc-astonishing!!!

― ILX (jdesouza), Monday, 25 August 2003 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i liked franklin bruno's writing for magnet. does he still write for them?

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

what do you guys think about "shake a tailfeather"?

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i am one of those who don't apparently exist. i agree with at least half of that list. i also read skyscraper. i now prepare to be bashed.

also, "kill whitey!"

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Franklin seems to mainly write for Time Out and CMJ these days, from what I can tell. He used to write for Pulse too. I think Magnet's best writers are William Bowers (he's really found a voice for himself) and Rich Juzwiak (who's a dear friend, so I'm biased, but he's been instrumental in getting Magnet to cover more dance music -- in fact, in the next issue he's gonna have a column on IDM and microhouse a la Sherburne).

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Interestingly enough, both Bowers and Juzwiak also write/wrote for Pitchfork.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Thank you Yanc3y for helping me remember that FB wrote for Puncture not Magnet, sorry it's early.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 25 August 2003 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

the next issue he's gonna have a column on IDM and microhouse a la Sherburne)

It's about time... I mean, they have columns on free jazz & metal I can't see why they've ignored electronic music for so long.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a guy I work with who subscribes to Magnet. He's 25. BA in English. Contemplating grad school. Hipster black glasses. Cords. Huge poetry fan (Ashbery, O'Hara, etc.). Favorite bands probably Superchunk, Wilco, Yo La Tengo, in that order. Yep, they exist.

Ashbery fans do not exist.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

(But what about Malkmus?)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Next time The Source puts out a best-of list that doesn't have any white folks on it I'm'a be up on this here ILM raising hell about it by gum!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

yes please tell me about thos mythical source issues that dont mention eminem, justin timberlake, beastie boys, bubba sparxx, mc serch, etc etc etc

― trife (simon_tr), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha zing you got me dude!

(that's what I get for trying to be funny)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:53 (twenty-one years ago)

(But what about Malkmus?)

Malkmus fans walk quite softly, and carry a micro stick.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 25 August 2003 18:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Ween's drummer is black! (ha there's ONE black person on the list ha!)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Malkmus fans walk quite softly, and carry a micro stick.

So, black men don't like Malkmus. </ObDickJoke>

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Seriously this list is so wrong on so many levels, they're picking some of the definitely-NOT-best-of particular artist's albums (White Pepper over Chocolate and Cheese and The Mollusk? Mars Audiac Quintet over Dots and Loops and Emperor Tomato Ketchup?) and some of them aren't really particularly spectacular or even 'landmarks' for that matter (Interfuckingpol!?!?!).

This list : best of lists :: wacking off to Victoria's Secret : head

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

So, black men don't like Malkmus.

Finally, one steps forward to be counted, tripod, first.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh. What I meant was "What about Malkmus? He's an Ashbery fan." Not "Do Malkmus fans exist?" But if it leads to dick jokes, I'm happy to be misunderstood.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

what the hell is so wrong with John Ashberry anyway?

― hstencil, Monday, 25 August 2003 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Nothing "wrong" with him. Just a little difficult to penetrate. (I'm setting you up, Dan.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

("Do Ashbery fans exist?" works as a joke not because Ashbery is bad, but because I feel comforted at not being able to understand the one Ashbery poem I tried to read.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

from my own experiences with indie ROCK, it's a very identity-based scene, not necessarily a musical one.

from my own experiences with indie rock, it's just a bunch of records with music and lyrics on 'em. almost everyone i know who listens to, say, enon or the white stripes or sgt. robert pollard's lonely hearts club band, also listens to hip-hop and classic rock and r&b and country and experimental weird shit and catchy-as-hell bubblegum music, in various degrees. because, at the end of the day, it's not "indie-rock" that most of these people are fans of. it's records with music and lyrics that they're fans of.

there is nothing even remotely indie or rock about moby's "play." that's not a judgment; it's a simple fact. to include him in your list of indie-rock or alternative rock or just plain rock or whatever kind of albums magnet claims to be listing is to basically admit that you are a corporate tool who has bought into the "identity" of indie rock that the industry wants to sell to you. maybe it means you're racist, too, i have no idea. or maybe it just means you're an idiot. either way, it makes it pretty clear to me that you're not listening for music; you're looking for a certain kind of identity and fashion.

if you want to make a best-of-powerpop list, then fine, but get moby and shadow and GYBE and JSBX and tortoise off of it., because there's not an ounce of power-pop in any of 'em. if you want to make a best-of-indie-rock list, then fine, but get pj harvey and the smashy pumpkys and rem and the verve off it. if you want to make the exact list of 60 albums magnet came up with, i dare you to tell me what exactly it's a list of.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Nothing "wrong" with him. Just a little difficult to penetrate. (I'm setting you up, Dan.)

TOO MUCH PRESSURE

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

if you want to make the exact list of 60 albums magnet came up with, i dare you to tell me what exactly it's a list of.

i would say that it was a list of 60 indie albums.

i dont really see what is wrong with the list, its 60 indie albums in an indie mag for indie people. it does what it says on the tin, i just dont really want this tin

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:22 (twenty-one years ago)

(I do like some Ashbery.*)

* I am somewhat indie.

(Worst indie poet = Bukowski)

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

60 indie albums in what sense? that list is full of albums that came out on warner bros, elektra, capitol, geffen and other extremely non-indie labels. how are rem and beck more indie than, say, the entire roster of cash money records?

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

i think if i pick up a reggae magazine i want it to tell me about reggae, i want a dance magazine to tell me about dance, i would want an indie magazine to tell me about indie, i dont really need them to attempt coverage of dj marky or roll deep or ferry corsten, i can read about that better elsewhere.

x-post, well, indie is of course a nebuluos term, ie, has taken on a meaning other than 'independent' (whatever that meant), i think we are talking about a bunch of records that fit within a fairly tight set of parameters (i mean, does moby really sound any different to flaming lips?), and its identifiable through both sound and also audience, or to put it another way, are you surprised by any of the inclusions in this list? i am not, but this is not necessarily the bad thing people here are suggesting. there is nothing wrong with a tight aesthetic.

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"Indie" as a term is completely useless seing as it means something completely different to every person who reads it.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

that's only true on ilm where we think about it really hard. to a lot of other people in certain social milieus its meaning, while not fixed, is more or less mutually comprehensible.

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

there is nothing even remotely indie or rock about moby's "play." that's not a judgment; it's a simple fact.

Also, Moby might be considered "indie" because a) Play was on V2, b) he espouses "indie ideals" (he's vegan = just like emo kids!). And he might be considered rock because c) he's played on rock radio, and d) his samples are of blues singers (not house divas) (more connected to the rock lineage). This is actually a perfect album to include on an "indie rock" list as a token electronic record, because it doesn't really stray THAT far.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, moby does sort of sound like the flaming lips sometimes. but the jon spencer blues explosion doesn't sound remotely like weezer, ever. and the magnetic fields don't sound like shellac, ever. and the magnetic fields do sometimes sound like britney spears, whose albums i'm guessing magnet did not consider for the list.

so my question comes down to: what exactly are these fairly tight set of parameters?

to answer your last question, no i'm not surprised by any of the names on the list but that's just because i know magnet is a magazine published by clueless corporate tools with lousy ears.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

fairly tight set of parameters = "these artists made music cuz their SOULS gave them no choice. all other artists make music cuz their BANK ACCOUNTS give them no choice. feel the pure."

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 25 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

And he might be considered rock because c) he's played on rock radio, and d) his samples are of blues singers (not house divas)

if (c) is magnet's justification, then they should have called the list the 60 best albums of the past 10 years played on rock radio. that would be a dumb-ass list, but at least it would make a tiny bit of sense.

if (d) is magnet's justification, then i'm not sure how they would explain the inclusion of "69 love songs," whose roots are closer to cabaret, broadway and house divas than they are to most blues singers.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

and defining "SOULS" and defining "BANK ACCOUNTS" and the idea that there's all that great a difference where art is concerned is where the trouble begins

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 25 August 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

But F-CC, there's no SINGLE criterion for what Magnet covers. That's why I gave four reasons for why Moby could be considered indie and/or rock. He's in there because of all four. So, maybe Magnetic Fields aren't "rock," but they sure are "indie" (Merge Records). "Indie rock" is always a nebulous concept; Nabisco has even talked about it in terms of a common audience. (That is, can you imagine someone who owns all of these records? I can.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 August 2003 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

that's only true on ilm where we think about it really hard.

Not really. I've had this argument with people since 1986. Really, the problem is that "indie" has become a banner for kids who don't fit into the dominant/traditional (delete as applicable) paradigm to define someplace that they "fit in" but the parameters are based on things they are AGAINST rather than things they are FOR, and the way they define themselves against these things (normalcy/the median, making money, lack of introspection/heart/integrity, the popular, the "other") have high potential for a scene rife with irritatingly po-faced seriousness and carbon-copy drones who confuse narcissism for intelligence and sneer at others for not sharing their patently superior taste.

That's the "indie" stereotype I grew up with, anyway.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 August 2003 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

jaymc: yes, but cannibal corpse and project pat are both "indie," too, but i can't imagine magnet is thinking about covering either of them. and creed and lenny kravitz are both "rock" -- and could go a long way to selling copies on the newsstand -- but i don't see either of them gracing the magazine. so how do you decide who fits some of these "criteria" and who doesn't?

of course i can imagine someone who owns all of these records. but if they don't own a lot of *other* records, too, i don't think they're doing anyone any good by putting out a music magazine.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

like jaymc said, it's not one criterion but several--many in fact--and the formula for inclusion is complex and imperfect. but it doesn't suffice to say "x is rock so..." or "y is on an indie label so...."

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

i agree the formula is imperfect but i don't think it's complex at all. i think it's basically this: these are records by artists who the people we go to parties with would be comfortable buying without having to think too hard, without ever having their belief system challenged, without ever having to meet a stranger (and, judging by this exact list, without ever having to be in danger of dancing). it's the same formula that rolling stone has been using for the past 20 years, tweaked a little bit to apply to people who go to a slightly different kind of party.

it's lifestyle marketing, straight up.

and, racist or not, it's a horrible way to run anything that purports to be a magazine about good music.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

but WHY are these records being played by the people with whom we go to parties etc.? what values (musical and otherwise) do and don't they have in common?

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 25 August 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

well amateurist, that gets back to the original proposition of this thread, about 465 posts ago: one of the values, musical and otherwise, they have in common is that magnet doesn't think they listen to music made by black people.

another value, musical and otherwise, that they have in common is that they're heavily influenced by marketing decisions, even more than by actual music. if a marketer tells them moby and dj shadow are "rock" artists and green velvet and carl craig are not, they believe them.

and instead of pushing and challenging them, the way a good magazine might, magnet has chosen to simply reinforce that perception.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know about marketting a lifestyle w/ Magnet...all those pee wee indie labels just can't have that much power. I also don't think Magnet's core believers ever go to parties. Magnet is more about nostalgia, I think, a belief in the power of the late 80s/early '90s Alternative Nation.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 25 August 2003 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

argh! nostalgia!! kill them! kill them all!!

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 25 August 2003 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

mark - i hear ya. but i'm not talking about the kind of marketing that requires any kind of power at all. it's the simple kind of power that a label can wield over a writer or a consumer by being a cool indie label in the first place. be a folkie singer/songwriter on drag city and watch your record get reviewed in cool indie-rock magazines. be a folkie singer/songwriter on rounder and watch your record *not* get reviewed in cool indie-rock magazines. call your music electronica and watch the indie-rock reviews pile up. call it hip-hop and watch them not. it has *everything* to do with how records and artists are marketed.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 25 August 2003 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, I just tried studying the Magnet issue in question and Magnet's Web page. Near as I can tell this list is "what we the editors of Magnet think are the 60 most important records of 1993-2003." In other words, it's the Pitchfork syndrome again -- white indie boys writing for white indie boys.

Another question: In what sort of supermarket does one find Magnet? Washington, DC is possibly the stodgiest place in the western hemisphere, but I've never found this mag in so accessible a place.

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Strongo lives in Olympia, Washington & I've no doubt you can find Magnet in the racks at Albertsons there. For the rest of the world its a specialist mag.

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

So just to get this straight. After Fred Mills and the rest of the Magnet staff finish writing and laying out the magazine, they pull on the hoods and go to the local Klan rally.
Admittedly, the magazine is flawed and skews toward an outmoded notion of "real music alternatives" but to accuse the editorial staff of racism is a serious charge, and potentially libelous if you're basing the accusation on some ill-considered list of favourite albums.
Yes, the articles and reviews concern predominantly white artists, but that doesn't mean the magazine's editorial policy is racially motivated. I'm guessing if the next big indie phenom was a group of black musicians, they'd get their due in the mag. And Magnet has done features on artists like Matthew Shipp and William Parker in the past, which kind of negates any charge of overt racism.
I'm not intending to be an apologist for Magnet magazine. If they're concerned enough about sales to put Pete Yorn or Tom Petty on their cover, they should think about expanding their coverage, getting away from the almost strict indie rock of the past decade. Recruit some new writers, people who know something about these genres, and start living up to that controversial tag line. It would only improve the magazine, add some life to an increasingly somnambulant publication. Magnet needs to take some real chances or become even more irrelevant.
Admittedly, the magazine's top-60 list is dull and predictable, but I think the magazine's staid approach to "real music alternatives" is more the culprit than an entrenched sectarianism.
Of course, this is only my humble opinion.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

The unstated premise of this whole thread is that Magnet SHOULD be listening to black people. Or SHOULD be adhering to some sort of iLX-inspired diversity clause where quality is somehow measured by group identity and "fair" treatment to certain groups is a diviner of just assessment. What a weak intellectual charade.

Also, record labels don't "wield" power on consumers--consumers are free to reflect their interest with their purchase. To the extent that labels restrict what gets released--that's really not been a factor for at least 10 years and actually, closer to 20. In fact, the reason a label is cool or not is the result of free will by consumers. Marketing is extremely complicated, and not simply a dimension of race or instrumentation or meter or any one thing. But hell, rather than just accept the fact that Magnet picked out 60 albums that meant the most to *their editors* and assumedly, 60 albums that their longtime readers would probably agree with, let's chew the fat over wishing Magnet was something that it never has been and doesn't aspire to.

And to whomever validated Vibe's inclusion of white people by tossing out names like Eminem et al, none of those whiteys operate outside the worldview of Vibe. That's a red herring.However, Magnet's list, judging from their editorial scope of the ten years I've read it, is totally predictable. AS IT SHOULD BE.

― don weiner, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i for one would like to see a Top 60 list by Ptolemaic Terrascope

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

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