Distancing oneself from nerd-rap in an attempt to appear "down" with "real" hip-hop, C/D?

I did see Felix on Wednesday though, he was great, even if he does tend to play the same records for oh, 2 years or so. We In Music-Now That The Love Has Gone must be his favourite record ever!

Colonel Mustard! (with the candlestick)

(kidding)

the thread that has been started here is mediocre, but i wont harp on about that, i think the poster who posed the question was aware of it pretty much as soon as it was posted, so i think it would be churlish for any of us to say too much.

so, i will answer the question, and give it the time of day we all know it doesnt really deserve, and perhaps next time you can go straight ahead and do an insult thread instead of cowering behind a flimsy premise and a pseudonym

ok, its kind of like this. all those people out there, yes, those people, look out your window, look on tv, yes, all those people that are buying mainstream hip hop records, you know, putting it at the top of the charts, going to clubs where it is played, you know, those artists that everybody knows, (look in a record store, they are the kind that have racks all to themselves)

right, now the people that buy those records, they don't buy them, or talk about them, or dance to them, as some kind of device to distance themselves from 'nerd rap', or emo, or tweepop, or drill'n'bass, or folktronica, or whatever other subgenre you want to line mainstream hip hop up against. 'nerd rap' doesnt even cross their radar, and why should it.

ok, now heres the bit that really is silly. somehow, you take this huge body of people (lets call them the general public, for arguments sake), and makes some weird straw man out of them, like, yes, all the people who buy 50 cent records are doing it as some kind of distancing device, they dont really like 50 cent, they like some obscure 'nerd rap' combo from madison, wisconsin or somewhere, but, for the sake of social convention, dont want to let this be made public, they might get embarrassed.

next on cnn, an expose of the rolling stones fanbase, where our fearless reporter reveales dozens of rolling stones fans in spain and portugal hiding broken social scene records behind their patios. "its true", says Luis Padilla, of Valencia, "i dont really like the stones, but my friends and neighbours were getting too close to the truth, my first love is Interpol, what else was i to do?"

I almost just think this is trife having a laugh it's such a thick thread for someone to have started sincerely.

Gareth is being somewhat disingenuous. I doubt the question refers to the general populace of 50 Cent buyers. It's aimed at ILM people, who the questioner perceives as being music obsessives who in turn be naturally interested in 'weird', 'alternative', 'underground' (in your face Ronan) strands of any genre (not necessarily to the exclusion of popular stuff).

ha ha

yeah, i gotta disagree here and say CLASSIC. everyone's got a right to individuation, am i correct?

The suggestion that liking commercial hiphop is some attempt at cashing cultural chips or whatever is kind of silly, I see where it's coming from but only in the sense that the amount of weirdness and odd characters and things in bling hiphop is what makes it so interesting, same goes for the ever evolving slang that goes with it.

Judge for yourselve folks...behold the nerd rap scene in madison, wisconsin!

http://www.madisonhiphop.com

I dislike the conservative undercurrent mainly, to me it says "you are like me, you should like the same things as me".

Individuation? Are you sure you're understanding that word correctly? How exactly would affecting one's actions with the intent to fit in have anything to do with "individuation"? If anything, that is the complete OPPOSITE.

i could not make that up

What is "Posts that demonstrate why ILX would never have gotten off the ground in Asia," Alex?

or we could all slit out wrists and drink our own liquefied feces instead.

I'm certainly the last person to get upset about "teh bling blingerz!1!!11!!" - I've posted my thoughts on T.I., David Banner, the Cash Money Millionaires and Lil Jon, and almost always it's been positive - but I was seeing a lot of "blacker than thou" being laid down here (and disparaging "nerd rap" seems to be the way to do that). Not that I'm judging anyone for it (despite the smarmy tone of my initial post) and in fact I think that when it comes to something as racially charged as hip-hop its only natural that people respond in that way (and I do it myself!)

And yes, I do find it strange to see people that will look for avant-garde rock music find only the popular, more mainstream hip-hop appealing. Of course, I'm glad they're listening to hip-hop at all, but whatever.

yeah, i'd say that individuation is as much about realizing that you have the power to assert an identity. i guess the classic example is little kids playing with makeup or dressing up in their parents clothes. you're always going to end up doing that in the set parameters of some group or other, i'd say the important thing is that you do that for yourself and not out of some sort of external pressure. if i want to dress and act a certain way because there's people around me that i look up to acting and dressing that way what's wrong with that? if i'm doing it out of fear of getting beat up, yeah, there's a problem there.

i guess i'm just a little bit more cynical than you are about "being yourself". everybody is going to fit in with some group of people or other - humanity is vast and varied and creative but we aren't that creative *as individuals*.

i do completely see where you're coming from, though.

But that's sorta seperate from my main pt. which was the issue of race and how it affects people's taste w/ regards to hip-hop. And I guess what I'm getting at is I think it probably affects how lots of people of all backgrounds and tastes approach the music.

In the case of Radiohead and Missy, couldn't she say that "I like wierd electronicky "experimental sounds" and both of them have that...as opposed to say "mainstream rock" like Nickleback or Matchbox 20?

and alex is right about strokes and FF, maybe she just like new wave pop

and alex is right about strokes and FF, maybe she just like new wave pop

first of all, you're avoiding the main pt. of what I'm arguing.
Second, fine that was a bad example, my point is I bet there are people on ILM into both Sun Ra and Missy, or Merzbow and Missy.

This is more along the lines of my main point.

haha!

Me, I like MCs that aren't butt.

I don't see much contradiction in liking Sun Ra, Merzbow and Missy. I guess it would seem problematic if you expect all music that you like to do the same sorts of things and be for the same sorts of time, but it seems obv to me it isn't and it doesn't.

Nate did get a lot of ship for being very openly undie hip hop centric when he first started posting here (some of it he brought on himself, but a lot of it was pretty unfair.) I think that has a great deal to do with a certain retiscence of undie hip hop fans to post long posts exulting the newest Def Jux 12" or whatever (even though those threads do happen and largely without negative comment these days.)

And if anyone can't guess why race doesn't factor as much in the indie rock vs. mainstream rock divide as it does in the undie hip hop vs. mainstream hip hop divide then they need serious help.

from the brainwashed site:
"Wants: Steve is looking for the following: the MTV Cribs episodes featuring Missy Elliott, and any MTV "making of the video" documentaries on Missy Elliott (excluding those released on the official "hits of Miss E vol 1" DVD). Please contact me off-list if you can get ur hands on any of this."

well, i think with some editing it makes perfect sense.

indie = parasitic = appropriated / mainstream = non-parasitic = "real"

i dunno about the bits about race. that's your battle, really.

It's funny, because Mos Def and Talib Kweli and I suppose Dead Prez have gotten more mainstream cred/play than the other MCs I've mentioned. MTV2 Rap Countdown forgives playa-hatred if you've got hott beats, I guess.

A: I think there's alot of garbage out there because it's so easy to make a CD. (Changes in) economics and technology over the last 8 years have made it possible for everyone to make a promo. Everyone makes beats, DJs, raps or sings. I mean, when I was young it was a HUGE deal to have your music on a CD or vinyl. If I were to bitch about one thing about Hip Hop right now, would just be that people aren't taking time to hone their craft. People make demos in their bedroom, and complain about commercial rap. But for me, alot of underground music is underdeveloped music. I mean, to me, Hip Hop has changed for the worst.

Q: What's your dream project?

A: Making a beat for a Ludacris and Jay Z collaboration. HaHa. That'd be dope.

-RJD2

A: At the time I was writing it I was getting sick of the monster it had become. I felt that people took our attitude and ran with it and distorted it. It's like you say one thing and it comes back to you as a completely different belief. A lot of people would come up to us and be like, "Yeah, I hate Jay-Z, too." I don't hate Jay-Z, I think he's dope. I was listening to Jay-Z before you even knew who Jay-Z was, when he was with Jaz and the originators back in '88.

Q: Speaking of Jay, who are you picking in the battle?

A: Is it going down?

Q: I heard something about it being on pay-per-view.

A: Nahh. I heard Jay-Z set the challenge, but I don't think Nas is really feeling that idea. But honestly, I gotta run with Jay if I had to do it. I love 'em both and I think that Nas has his heart in the right place. But I think that Jay, at this point, has the stronger career. Me and Vast [Aire, of Cannibal Ox] were talking about this. It's like when Jay-Z slides home, he just slides in-- it's just so effortless for him. But with Nas, it's like he's caught between home and third, and cats are like throwing the ball back and forth. [Nas] barely made it with [Stillmatic]. He managed to revive his credibility a little bit, but when it all gets down to it, I don't really think that he's fucking with Jay. And that's hard for me to say, because Illmatic is one of my all-time favorite albums. [Starts singing "You're a Big Girl Now".] But there's too many misses. Nas just can't make that jiggy shit. He can't do it but he just won't stop with it. And he's not picking his beats that well. But I still think Nas has it, and when it all boils down to it, I think he's a better writer than Jay, but that's just my opinion. I watch that shit like it was wrestling. I just hope it all remains peace. So far it has and I don't want to see it elevate past that.

-El-P

Yeah yeah yeah Nate and I'm sure you can find a quote of El-P saying Jay-Z is great (fuck saying Jay-Z and Ludacris were great was like the stock undie thing last year. Didn't Four Tet or whatever say he wanted to produce them too?)

Where does Outkast fit into all this, btw?

Dude I challenge you to find one thing on any Def Jux recording dissing mainstream hip-hop in its entirety because of the fact that it's mainstream. El-P has said from day one that Def Jux was going to be a label that offered an "alternative" to what was out there - they never claimed to be the "future" of hip-hop, nor have they dissed mainstream music as a whole.

And frankly, throwback jerseys ARE corny at this pt.! I think Murs is dead on about that.

I have no idea if one ever could, but bands that have been very recently multi-platinum don't meet most people's definition of cult.
I don't see much contradiction in liking Sun Ra, Merzbow and Missy. I guess it would seem problematic if you expect all music that you like to do the same sorts of things and be for the same sorts of time, but it seems obv to me it isn't and it doesn't.

My point is why is it not cool for ILMers to like non-pop hip-hop, stuff that is sorta "out there" like anti-pop or something, yet its ok to like the same kind of weird shit in other genres? I certainly don't think its a contradiction to like Missy and Sun Ra - I'm someone who likes both artists myself! I just wonder why artists like El-P and Antipop consortium are the subjects of such derision here.

And if anyone can't guess why race doesn't factor as much in the indie rock vs. mainstream rock divide as it does in the undie hip hop vs. mainstream hip hop divide then they need serious help.

Like I said, hip-hop is going to have a lot more issues surrounding race; I was trying to start a discussion, suggesting that perhaps racial issues had something to do with ILM's lean towards the mainstream, the more pop-sounding performers.

whitey's still jackin on rap as a form like poetry rather than conversation

Do you realize the irony here? I hate it when whitey thinks he knows what hip-hop is, but $corpium, he knows the real deal. Its not like hip-hop can be whatever the fuck it wants to be or something. You CAN appreciate hip hop that has a traditional conversational tone and STILL appreciate Kool Keith's inverted flow.

I also haven't bought an undie hip hop album in the past year that I liked a lot.

(Haha okay I'll go look through all my old magazines later and see if I can find any quotes from anyone affiliated with Ozone or Anticon or Quannum and see if I can find a bunch of generally derisive comments about mainstream hip hop being stagnant, lame, money-driven, pointless, etc.)

RE: El-P as a rapper - again, claiming general novice status for myself - has changed/gotten better on recent material. I understand why big chunks of FanDam and Funcrusher+ would turn people off, but "We're Famous," "Missy Done Justice," and "Oxycontin Pt.2" barely sound like the same guy.

I loved kool keith, but he put out too many albums. it's like, who really wants to hear the new big daddy kane? but worse. Dr. Octagon is a classic, no doubt. I'm just saying real hip hop is shifting to the south. it's cool to appear down with hip hop. one.

$corpium, are you trying to be our ughh.com representative or something?

was it was written good?

hip hop is and has always been everything between this and that.

HAHAHAHAHAHA this is insane (except for Reasonable Doubt.) 1996 was a banner year for hip hop.

smooth.

Jeru - Wrath of the Math
Dr. Octagon
Reasonable Doubt
Endtroducing
Redman - Muddy Waters
Tribe's 4th album (Beats, rhymes and life)
De La Soul - Stakes is High
Poor Righteous Teachers - New World Order
too Short - Gettin' it
UGK - Ridin' Dirty

Do please leave me out of this.

my point is that the division between "real" and "nerd" is silly as all get out, creating an arbitrary and historically invalid demarkation line of "authenticity" or "what hip hop or rap or whatever should be."

The Rammellzee is "nerdy" as all hell with his sc-fi art and sounds, but he's pretty damn Old School too -- the point being that Hip Hop has always embraced a wide range of approaches from the get go -- this "nerd" and "real" stuff is just a fun little game that has nothing to do with anything "real." People pulling out the "race card" to validate "authenticity" is equally obnoxious.

"authenticity" is game played by suckers.

for example, if i wanted to know specifically about egyptian music, i think i would want to make sure the music that i heard was popular indigenous egyptian music, that people on the street listened to, i would be wary of worthy world music comps that didnt really reflect what was happening (ie, in this case, the authenticity would likely be inauthentic in a way, as probably amorphous and showing western influence, but culturally it would be authentic if it was an accurate snapshot of today, rather than an idealized version thereof)

or, perhaps, if i wanted to know about dance music over the last 10 years, i would want to be missing out on things like squarepusher really (even if i liked his record), because i dont think things like squarepusher are really going to tell me much about dance music in the uk, i'd be wanting jungle, garage, house.

i think in these cases, yes, i would be concerned with authenticity, i think cultural authenticity is something that is difficult to dismiss, and i'm not sure why anyone would want to do that anyway.

so, if we come to hip hop, i think, really (like with most other musics), there is a distinction, and i'm not sure why ignoring that distinction is a good idea. while there may be some real or perceived battle for what hip hop should be, i'm not sure thats the main point. i think it comes back to cultural relevance. if i wanted to know about hip hop in the US in 04, its cultural role etc, who should i really be listening to?

i think without cultural authenticity, how are you really relating the music you hear to its social surroundings? i mean, unless you hear things in a vacuum (although im not quite sure how you do this)

i am not suggesting that you should listen only to things that are popular, or even to things that are popular at all, that is a private concern. but i am suggesting that if you want to get a handle on a popular music style and its role in society that it might be advisable to listen to what is popular first, this will give a contextual grounding in that music, a fuller picture, the edges mean nothing without the centre (even though the edges might be very pretty, or nicer than the centre, that is a personal concern, that is fine)

the post above is not a guide to what should or should not be done, it is a defence of the concept of authenticity, which mr cole disparaged in his previous post as a game played by suckers. this i disagreed with, because i think without the concept of authenticity (as a cultural concern), then you are removing the concept of sociality from music, which i believe to be an error, due to the large cultural role music plays in society,

or, if we are to dismiss the concept of authenticity, then squarepusher is as jungle as dillinja? but do we have an accurate picture of jungle if we are to pursue this line of thought. wile radical subjectivity is of use in puncturing balloons, it is too vaccuum oriented to focus on social and cultural elements. taken to its extreme we are left with a concept that says that cornelius makes as authentic jungle as lemon d, im not sure where that leaves us, but it seems to be in a place where the word genre is without merit

Are you saying there's no such thing as ethnicity in music?

Sex Styles >>>>>>> Doc Oc

Hey, I'm all for that.

Let's see add to Mr. djdee's list (and Nate's recommend of Iron Man) Hell on Earth, The Coming, Firing Squad, Psychoanalysis, Nocturnal, Enigma. Naw not far off at all.