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"Kill Your Idols" -- new book

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Kill Your Idols
A New Generation of Rock Writers
Reconsiders the Classics
Edited by Jim DeRogatis and Carmél Carrillo
Coming from Barricade Books in June 2004!

Thirty-five of the best rock writers of Generations X and Y each weigh in on an album that's universally considered "a classic"—-but which they think sucks.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Contributors/Contents

The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band
— Jim DeRogatis

The Beach Boys, Pet Sounds
— Jeff Nordstedt

The Beach Boys, Smile
— Dawn Eden

The Who, Tommy
— Steve Knopper

The MC5, Kick Out the Jams
— Andy Wang

The Byrds, Sweetheart of the Rodeo
— Steven Stolder

Captain Beefheart and & His Magic Band, Trout Mask Replica
— Jason Gross

Derek and the Dominos, Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs
— Marc Weingarten

Led Zeppelin, untitled (“IV”)
— Adrian Brijbassi

Neil Young, Harvest
— Fred Mills

The Rolling Stones, Exile on Main Street
— Keith Moerer

The Eagles, Desperado
— Bobby Reed

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Pronounced Leh-nerd Skin-nerd
— Leanne Potts

Gram Parsons, GP / Grievous Angel
— Chrissie Dickinson

The Doors, The Best of the Doors
— Lorraine Ali (with Jim DeRogatis)

Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon
— Burl Gilyard

Bob Dylan, Blood on the Tracks
— Chris Martiniano

Patti Smith, Horses
— Melanie Haupt

Bob Marley & the Wailers, Exodus
— Dave Chamberlain

Fleetwood Mac, Rumours
— Jim Walsh

Paul & Linda McCartney, Ram
— Tom Phalen

John Lennon / Yoko Ono, Double Fantasy
— Allison Stewart

The Sex Pistols, Never Mind the Bollocks . . . Here’s the Sex Pistols
— Jim Testa

Dead Kennedys, Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables
— Marco Leavitt

Bruce Springsteen, Born to Run
— David Sprague

Bruce Springsteen, Born in the U.S.A.
— Rob O’Connor

Elvis Costello and the Attractions, Imperial Bedroom
— Michael Corcoran

Various artists, My Greatest Exes
— Carmél Carrillo

U2, The Joshua Tree
— Eric Waggoner and Bob Mehr

Public Enemy, It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
— Arsenio Orteza

Nirvana, Nevermind
— Anders Smith Lindall

The Smashing Pumpkins, Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
— Rick Reger

Radiohead, OK Computer
— David Menconi

Wilco, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
— Allison Augustyn

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm super psyched to read this

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Oof, not I. It'd be boring as a praise list...and it's just as boring as a hate list!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

(Beyond that, I recognize a total of...five out of the thirty-five writers.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Just say it Ned. It looks shit.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

If we want to be high-minded about it, we can call it a spirited assault on a pantheon that has been foisted upon us, or a defiant rejection of the hegemonic view of rock history espoused by the critics who preceded us.

PLEASE DERO DON'T HURT 'EM!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

highlights so far:

*DeRogatis' incessant bitching in the intro about the old guard of boomer rockcrits getting in the way of the younger generation. DeRogatis is 40 years old.

*In the Sgt. Pepper essay, on "Getting Better," DeRogatis: "McCartney is telling us he used to be mean to his woman, he beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. This guy's a freaking misogynist scumbag, and I don't buy for a minute that he's 'changing his scene.' Like Travis Bickle, he's just waiting for an excuse to explode. That insistent piano is like a nervous facial tick, the waltz-like tempo is barely keeping him restrained, and it's time to run and lock the door when the tune dissolves into a psychedelic breakdown with droning sitar and echoed tabla. Hey, the Hell's Angels took LSD, but they didn't automatically start loving everyone. Remember Atlamont?"

*The Pet Sounds essay complains that the music is really poppy, but the lyrics are morse, and that doesn't make any sense!

More when I regain the stomach for it.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:45 (twenty-one years ago)

(that should be "morose")

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:45 (twenty-one years ago)

(and "Altamont")

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

For the record, I've been the author of many, mnay, many 'overrated' columns over the years, and no one asked ME to contribute.

I think they've pretty much covered it above, though, with the exception of Zen Arcade

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

as well, doesn't devoting an entire book TO the canon, for smashing purposes or no, kinda sorta totally fucking REINFORCE the canon and thereby fail at its stated task?

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah...this book still reinforces the idea that these are all albums you have to DEAL WITH if you want to be serious about rock & roll, even if you have to ultimately reject them.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:51 (twenty-one years ago)

also: RAM?!?!??!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!!! what the FUCK is Ram doing in there?!?!?

and The Best of the Doors? wasn't that, like, 486th in that Rolling Stone top 500, behind three other Doors compilations?

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael Daddino OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 10 April 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Desperado? Does that have any real critical rep? Does it appear in any of the rock canon benchmark books? Oh sure, it appears in Stranded alright, but even poor forgotten Grace Lichtenstein who named it her desert island disc also called Desperado "pretentious in spots, trivial in others" (as well as "deliciously melodic throughout.")

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Eergh agh

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

What a piece of shit. Rock critics are morons.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:10 (twenty-one years ago)

no, Michael Daddino. most rock critics that I've read hate the Eagles.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, yeah, it was sort of a rhetorical question...if you're going to attack the canon, why attack an album that's most definitely not part of it? (Hotel California or Greatest Hits would make more sense.)

I want to be somewhat fair-minded about this and cling to the possibility that there are individual essays in the book that aren't bad, but if I buy this (and I'd buy this used), it's going to be the same reason I bought Sonic Cool, and that's TO FEEL THE HATE. DeRo can pose himself as some kind of rebel dude, but an attack on "the rock canon" or individual albums is just gonna curdle into mere pose if you're still going to share many of the same standards of measuring "good" and "bad" music that a lot of the listmakers and the canonbuilders do.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Now, about that canon business: In the early ’90s, the hallowed halls of the academy were rudely awakened from their soporific slumbers by the sound and fury of the so-called “culture wars.” Here was a rabid backlash against what conservatives perceived as the insidious plague of “political correctness” on our college campuses, spread by the voices of diversity who’d been trying since the mid-’60s to broaden the literary curriculum away from “dead white European males”—you know, guys like Shakespeare, Milton, Dryden, and Pope—in order to include folks who weren’t . . . well, quite so dead, white, European, or male.

Is this why in every literature class from 8th to 10th grade, the only thing we would read would be about poor Mexican families who learned the value of tradition by passing down grandma's quilt?

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

However, from the introduction alone, this seems like a book I would very much like to read.

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 10 April 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

David Allen more otm than any other ILMer ever

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I fart on this book

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

ha matos emailed me about this yesterday. i wonder what i will be reading on my lunch breaks next week.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Doesn't this book = 1 out out of every five ILM posts?

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I would fart on a book of 1 out of every five ILM posts too

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Miccio otm

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not gonna say who, but one of the writers has a blog with a account of their non-ironic participation in a Defense of Marriage rally.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

(That is, if I read it correctly...and I didn't intend to find out if I was right or not. Uh, since I'm not naming the person I don't think I'm being unfair to them, right?)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Not at all. If however their review consists of complaints about gays ruining our lifestyles, the cat's out of the bag.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Imperial Bedroom seems like an odd choice to represent Elvis Constello...is that more critically acclaimed than Armed Forces or This Year's Model? (I've never heard it)

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i tried to pitch them diamond princess, and dero was almost down until he realized it wasn't a joni mitchell album.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

further gems:

*From the Public Enemy chapter: "It's too bad there's never been--and given our hypersensitivity to that chimera "hate speech," may never be--an equally public debate about the validity of that notoriously dimwitted genre of aural graffiti known as rap, the artistic merits of which the music media, in its zeal to see young black radicals do well, has been over-hyping for two decades now. Don't get me wrong, rap can be great fun. At its early best, before it became overrun by gangstas, thugz, pimps, hoez, and other types you wouldn't want to bring home to your grandma (or your spelling teacher), rap was the closest thing to a revival of the loose goofiness of Lieber-Stoller-era Coasters...Since then many rap albums have had their meager merits exaggerated by the press."

*More from the Pet Sounds one: "The biggest problem, though, is this: A great rock album should scare your parents...The problem with Pet Sounds is that Brian WIlson is about as intimidating as an episode of Seventh Heaven, and the album hardly solicits a PMRC-style reaction from anyone."

Did anyone mention that there's an essay about Smile, a record that never came out? Good lord.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

hey, i'm EATIN here

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

oh! and this from the Sgt. Pepper one: "It's hard to imagine a less cool topic for a rock song in the '60s or any other time than professing your love for a cop. McCartney was no Ice-T or N.W.A, though, and he does exactly that in "Lovely Rita." This song finally rocks a bit, but it's dragged down by the cheesy piano and mundane lyrics--unless of course I'm missing the homoerotic subtext. The song's protagonist is attracted to traffic warden Rita because, in the cap and with the bag across her shoulder, she looks 'a little like a military man.' Then they go on a date and Rita pays. Hmmm. Too bad her sisters are home to prevent young Paul from getting handcuffed to the bed and findout Crying Game-style what sorta six-shooter Rita is really packing."

draw your own conclusions from that one.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

A great rock album should scare your parents

They were never SCARED by the noise, just vaguely annoyed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Strongo Hulkington, I am sorry to disturb your meal.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Can Yankee Hotel Foxtrot really be considered a classic yet? I mean, c'mon, I loved the disc but I don't think I've listened to it in at least six months. And I have friends who were far more into it than I and even they haven't really put it on in a long while.

Great record, but it just seems to have sort of fallen off.

― Travelin' Smith, Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Can Yankee Hotel Foxtrot really be considered a classic yet?

Clearly they needed something from the past seven years to include...and that was all they could think of.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't get me wrong, rap can be great fun. At its early best...

Can I be Ethan for a second, please?

A great rock album should scare your parents...

KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL ARRRGGHHHFUCK

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

If you're going to get your jollies beating a dead horse, do something that actually contributes to overall well-being of humanity, like coming up with new knock-knock jokes.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey Mike, did you know that you can really connect to the youth of today through the songs they listen to, and understand them better and help them with their personal problems? It's true!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Ironically enough, for today's generation, where most children's parents were raised on a heavy dose of Led Zepplin and Aerosmith, Pet Sounds DOES scare the parents.

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Rock and roll can lead to meeting people with similar interests.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

If rock really wanted to scare parents, people should write songs about how Medicare is going to be bankrupt in 20 years, or maybe how it's possible that your losses in the early 00's stock market may mean you have to work until 70....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

pet sounds wouldnt scare my mother, just bore her.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

No, you see, that wouldn't work, 'cause that scares everybody with half a brain, not just people who aren't hep enough to have studied the last fifty years of rock mythology.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha ha..."hep."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

whoa there daddio

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

ah, you kids and your crazy jive talk. i'll never understand the beat generation.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 10 April 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Where are the gentle ballads of yesteryear?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.crumbproducts.com/aprilnewgraphics/beatbox.jpg

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Where are the gentle ballads of yesteryear?

ned, remember when we used to take our best gals out to dance to the glen miller orchestra? now those were the days...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:12 (twenty-one years ago)

wouldn't books like this be better if alongside their oh-so-iconoclastic pieces, each writer had to provide a "this album is totally great" essay? then we could really laugh ourselves stupid at them.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:14 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.shoestringtravels.com/art/Smoking%20wolf.gif

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:14 (twenty-one years ago)

If only Tex Avery had lived long enough.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't there supposed to be an appendix of each writer's top ten favorite albums in the back?

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I, of course, suspect that all of these albums are just easy targets for people who happen to not like them.

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, I'm not crazy about some of these albums either, but what am I going to write about, why the arrangements on Blood on the Tracks aren't exciting? Why the plot of Tommy is kind of wack?

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not familiar with most of these writers -- only DeRogatis, Jim Walsh and Anders Smith Lindall -- but I'm guessing that most of these people seem out of their element -- Arsenio Orteza especially -- and seem to be reacting as outsiders. Odds are Burl Gilyard is not an aficianado of '70s audiophile post-psych borderline prog, that Rob O'Connor is some sort of synthophobe, that most of the people writing about hippie albums are bitter old punks and most of the people writing about punk albums are bitter old hippies. I'd be more interested* in reading the laments of a hardcore genre aficionado wondering why a middling album from his favorite style of music -- say, Play -- is given more mainstream credit than albums that do a lot more.

*which is still a very very very faint and thin sliver just a hint above apathy

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I've already read dissenting opinions on most of those albums (especially Horses, The Joshua Tree, and Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables). Why don't they pick some albums that you never hear anybody talk shit about? Like Kind of Blue or Highway 61 Revisited or Ramones?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 10 April 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't get me wrong, rap can be great fun. At its early best, before it became overrun by gangstas, thugz, pimps, hoez, and other types you wouldn't want to bring home to your grandma (or your spelling teacher), rap was the closest thing to a revival of the loose goofiness of Lieber-Stoller-era Coasters...

Yeah, whatever happened to Amos & Andy?

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 10 April 2004 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

RADIOHEAD + WILCO, come on. I can't make that point enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Saturday, 10 April 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just wondering which canons they're trying to smash and who they're trying to make a point to. I mean, all these albums aren't so much critical darlings as they are populist records that happen to be touted by a great deal of (albeit not a majority of) mainstream journalist critics. While I don't really want to see anyone tearing down these albums, why didn't they include some critical darlings that didn't go platinum or make the cover of RS -- Gram Parsons and Captain Beefheart and maybe Patti Smith are probably the only crit-dork-cred records on the whole damn list! Where's the Velvet Underground, Nick Drake, the New York Dolls, Kraftwerk, Can, Television, the Slits, the Fall, Black Flag, Descendents, Fugazi, Pavement, Sleater-Kinney or Lucinda Williams? As far as critical canons go they're a lot more important and pervasive than a lot of these groups that were disposed of by critics as "irrelevant" or "obsolete" after punk hit (Skynyrd, Floyd, the Doors) or were never darlings in the first place (Mellon Collie?! RAM?!?!?!).

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 17:58 (twenty-one years ago)

(then again that "My Greatest Exes" thing could be a compendium of obnoxious former boyfriends who used to sit around listening to Suicide and being ponderous, I don't know)

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I went to the main library to grab a book to read during lunch and walked out with DeRo's Milk It!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

They should have trashed In the Airplane Over the Sea.

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Saturday, 10 April 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

haha I was just thinking what more masochistic choice could I have made but then somebody just returned a copy of The O'Reilly Factor here.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

they should have let me write the mellon collie chapter. it would have been worth the price of the book.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I will read this in Barnes and Noble and then tak eit to the bathroom and splooge all over the picture of DeRo.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

And I thought it was sposed to be called Kill Yr Idols.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Why don't they pick some albums that you never hear anybody talk shit about? Like Kind of Blue (1) or Highway 61 Revisited (2) or Ramones (3)?

1. Don't get me wrong, jazz can be great fun. At its early best, before it became overrun by gangstas, thugz, pimps, hoez, and other types you wouldn't want to bring home to your grandma (or your spelling teacher), jazz was the closest thing to a revival of the loose goofiness of Stone-Age-era caveman-racket...

2. That voice! Ugg! And I've driven on Highway 61 many times and I don't ever want to revist it, thank you.

3. All the songs sound the same.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I do go on a bit

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Aww, someday I hope to send you a rage filled letter to the editor Nate.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, Baron Von Raphater has some interesting venues to write in

christhamrin, make sure to end it "consider yourself smacked, bitch"

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Must...paste...all:

"It won't show up on William Bennett's list of leading cultural indicators, but the discrepancy in CD sales between Norah Jones, 24, and Ani DiFranco, 33, is one sign that, contemporary headlines to the contrary, the Left may not be winning the culture war after all. Although Miss DiFranco, a one-woman Beat Movement whose music is often as abrasively anarchistic as her politics, has managed to lodge eight albums on the Billboard Top 200 since 1989, only one of them has cracked the top 25, and nine haven't charted at all.

Miss Jones, on the other hand—an "Anti-Ani" in every noticeably significant way—has seen her debut album (2002's Come Away with Me) and its follow-up (the recently released Feels Like Home) become instant chart-toppers. If people vote with their feet, why may they also not vote with their ears? One thing's certain: Where Miss Jones and Miss DiFranco are concerned, people are voting with their money."

WTF?

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

holy cow

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Norah Jones albums available at Wal-Mart and Target: two
Ani DiFranco albums available at Wal-Mart and Target: fuckin' zero

Not that I'm a big Ani fan but ENOUGH WITH THE RETARDED, ARSENIO.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

("oooh, you let him call you Arsenio!")

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I am shaking my arm at and making dog noises at Arsenio Orteza, but it is in disgust not praise.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! You have to register, but someone can take that bullet for us and illuminate us with more of the Wisdom of Arsenio, right?

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

And to think I used to mock critics for putting Outkast as their only rap album in their top ten. How trivial that was!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, I found the Defense of Marriage rally participant, though I'm not naming names. So that's two creepy right-wing fundies who contribute to this book so far.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Nate, you totally would have written about one of these albums if they had asked you to. I would have.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

although they must have picked which album they hated. so if they had asked you to write about the fall or whoever you hate you would have.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't really have a problem with any of these albums, actually, save the ones that shouldn't even be in the book in the first place due to their not-exactly-canonical status. I'd probably write about WL/WH, but I doubt I could be arrogant or angry enough for Jim's fuck-you-boomers approach.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

the pumpkins would have been perfect for me. they are one of the only bands i hate. there is wilco on that list though, hmmm....

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe someone will come out with a 33 & a thud series.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

and much of the criticism seemed to be w/the choice of authors. which is stuffed w/neo nazis, non-music writers and hacks, apparently.

I'd probably write about WL/WH

*begins preperations for rage-filled letter*

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, according to the foreword, every contributer wrote for free. Me, I'd be all "fuck you, pay me, give me my mon-ay". Even then, I'm not interested at this point in my life in spending a large amount of time and effort giving negative record reviews of widely-loved albums as some sort of grand rebellious gesture. I just do it to needle ILMers on occasion.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Like so: "every attempt to recreate White Light/White Heat (either by the Velvets themselves or by any of their imitators), has generally been an improvement. This includes David Bowie's cover of the title track." Then I'd go have a Coke and watch Mr. Show.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i would buy that book if i thought it was gonna be halfway-funny, but i have no idea if any of those people are funny. i recognize some names, but only a few. fred mills edits magnet. i don't know anything about derogotis except that everyone on ilm hates him. i've never read let it blurt.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

The word of the day is Ram, btw.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I like let it blurt enough, but the reviews I've read of his are only funny (or insightful) unintentionally.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i recognize david menconi's name, but i don't know from where. some look familiar from magazines but i can't remember which ones. Lorraine Ali wrote/writes for the voice though. i think.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i think i like Ram.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

CANONIST

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Then I'd go have a Coke and watch Mr. Show.

If you like Mr. Show I can accept your completely wrong (subjectively of course!) take on White Light/White Heat. As it is I am settling for generic diet cola and Madvillain.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

you were right nate about them not picking any good crit albums. there isn't any album on there that would get me mad if i read a slam of it. i mean, who cares? they should have picked more darlings. i would have gotten really pissed if some hack went off on joy division or something. then the book might be worth something.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

why settle for coke when you can have "Apache," Nate?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't start

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

i hope that book is filled with stuff like: Exodus? More like Exo-don't! And: Yankee Hotel Foxtrot? More like a funeral march!

Then i would buy it.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Horses? Horseshit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Fresh Fruit? More like Rotting Vegetables!

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Lonely Hearts Club Band? More like Lonely Hearts Club Bland!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

When I hear Bob Marley I want to take an exodus away from the stereo!

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Smile? More like frown!

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Grievous Angel? More like grievous listener! (for having to listen to this terrible album!)

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Jason Gross is the guy behind the Perfect Sound Forever website, which I've always admired if never dived into very frequently. His Beefheart essay was on the site, I believe, and while I didn't read the whole of it, IIRC its main thrust was puzzlement over how Trout Mask Replica became the crit establishment's token avant (and Beefheart) pick, which is sorta kinda almost close to Nate's wish for "the laments of a hardcore genre aficionado wondering why a middling album from his favorite style of music...is given more mainstream credit than albums that do a lot more."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Lynyrd Skynyrd, pronounced com-plete bull-shit

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

yankie hotel foxtrot? i coulda froliced in human excrement!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

(Sorry to interrupt the fun.)

Born to Run? More like Born to Rot, uh-huh!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Kick out the jams? Kick out the BAND! p.u.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Led Zeppelin's Untitled? More like Led Zeppelin's...UNSPEAKABLE! HAW!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Layla and other assorted lame shit

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Exile On Main Street? More like exiled from my stereo!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Trout Mask Replica? I'd hate to see the original! Yuck!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

the beatles? repeated stabbings in the scrotum with a phillips head screwdriver!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, I'm sorry, was that Blood On The Tracks? I could have sworn it was shit!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Them Back, But It Takes One Listen To Know They're WACK!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Sweetheart of the rodeo CLOWN, maybe

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The Joshua Tree? I heard Bono has a small penis!

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

avril lavigne? colombian necktie!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Harvest? More like locusts feeding off of the bleached corpse of a dead failed family farmer!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Nirvana, Nevermind? Whatever you say, buddy!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

The Rumour(s) that Fleetwood Mac is shit is true.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

IMPENETRABLE BOREDOM. OF SUCK.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

this is why we'll never be "down" with "rock crit"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Sweetheart of the rodeo CLOWN, maybe

Uh, excuse me. Sweetheart of the Rodeo ASSCLOWN more like it.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

The only sounds peoples' pets really make are like uh when your dog farts and stuff!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Much Desperado about Nothing, I say!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Sweetheart of the rodeo CLOWN, maybe

Uh, excuse me. Sweetheart of the Rodeo ASSCLOWN more like it.

More like the rodeo assclown's harelip sweetheart who has festering anal fissures.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I would buy a book that was like this.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

you know, it's sunny outside. i need help.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Double Fantasy? Double the ASSY!

(I'm at work, that's my excuse)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Double Fantasy? More like you should be doubly happy that you are dead and don't have to listen to the damned thing!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

you know, it's sunny outside. i need help.

I don't get that one. Is it about Dark Side of the Moon?

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Dark Side Of The Moon? More like having way too much money and being an idiot!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

The Who? More like The What the Fuck?

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 10 April 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

The Best of the Doors? Thats downright paradoxical!

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

The Doors? Great, as long as one of them is an exit!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 10 April 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

thurston moore? how bout a little thurston LESS?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 10 April 2004 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

This one wins:

"Sweetheart of the rodeo CLOWN, maybe"

One of those titles you just gotta visualize.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:28 (twenty-one years ago)

"Nevermind The Sex Pistols...What do these Bollocks sound like?"

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy, I can't wait for the year 2025* when a bunch of punk kids talk shit about Illmatic and Selected Ambient Works 85-92

*if man is still alive

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

nate i love you

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

"The problem with Illmatic is that Nas had no foresight; were he a true visionary he would have known that muddy-sounding jazz and soul samples would be obsolete within three years. More like Illnemic if you ask me. Ha! Ha!"

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Selected Ambient Works 85-92? Imagine how shitty the ones that weren't selected are!

― christhamrinJR(fromthefuture) (christhamrin), Saturday, 10 April 2004 23:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"puzzlement over how Trout Mask Replica became the crit establishment's token avant (and Beefheart) pick, which is sorta kinda almost close to Nate's wish for "the laments of a hardcore genre aficionado wondering why a middling album from his favorite style of music...is given more mainstream credit than albums that do a lot more.""

If the statement can be applied to TMR, then what are some suggestions for albums that fit this description? What are some albums that could replace it as the token avant-rock pick? Preferably albums that are old enough to be considered part of the canon, but have long been overlooked..

I'm not saying they don't exist, i would just love to hear them!

― Michael Dubsky, Sunday, 11 April 2004 02:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Hampton Grease Band - Music To Eat

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 11 April 2004 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Music to Eat's not nearly as awesome as TMR, though.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 02:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Luv perfect sound forever, and it was one of the things I was reading before I got into ILM. The archives are really good.

Here is jason's essay (must've read that a couple of years ago), there's also a couple of other essays on TMR and reviews of all his recs (a similar tribute was made for The fall).

http://www.furious.com/perfect/beefheart/troutmaskreplica2.html

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 11 April 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Er...actually, now that I read it, his essay isn't really that good, either.

If somebody was to tackle TMR and its reputation, I'd hope they'd address the faintly condescending attitudes people have towards eccentrics and the clearly damaged, even when they come to praise them (this may include Zappa, arguably). Or the claims about Van Vliet's near-abuse of the Magic Band members.

Or maybe talk about Van Vliet's overweening arrogance and his disavowal of precendent and i*fluence in interviews -- which would dovetail nicely with Gross' claims that Beefheart's fans don't seem to give credit to those who those who came before him. Though does Gross *really* believe that "most" people who count Beefheart as a hero "never have heard of" Ornette Coleman? Is he serious?

Though to say that Beefheart's music seemed "new only because he took Coleman's idea to rearrange the ideas of what was supposed to be melody and rhythm into rock territory" wildly overestimates Ornette's example as a precedent (This reminds me -- is there any improvisation on TMR?)...hey, what about the blues? Howlin' Wolf, at the very least?

Oh yeah, then there's the pro-forma attacks on 70's radio...

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

there is a great interview with merrell frankhauser where he talks about the time that he had to go "rescue" jeff cotton from the depraved clutches of don. i think it was in ugly things.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahahaha/uh-oh

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I THINK THIS MEANS WE'VE WON!!!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy oh boy I hope they read the entirety of my blog post on their radio show, possibly using sarcastic sneery voices!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Then they'll say "what a jackass" and play something by the Shins

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy oh boy I hope they read the entirety of my blog post on their radio show, possibly using sarcastic sneery voices!

DON'T FORGET THE HAND PUPPETS, NATE! THAT WOULD SERIOUSLY ROCK ON THE RADIO!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Which one is Sifl and which one is Olly? And which of them gets to be the one that says "You know those ILM people think they're sooooooo hot but you know what? [very, very long pause] They're not."

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"So I was like chillin my homiez Greil and Xgoo and Dero got in my face and he was all DA CANONS FOR TARDS and I was like YEAHWHATEVA!"

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

When I linked this earlier today i didn't get to reading it again, but I got to the bit about how some of the 'experiments' don't work.

Is the every track on the record suppoosed to be an experiment?

'orange claw hammer' is a 'good experiment' but its just a poetry reading (one of three on the record, I'm thinking he wanted variety on the double LP). and how is the 'dust blows forward' an 'uninspired reading'? I kinda agree with 'veteran's day poppy' but in the context of the record I just found it funny how he seemed to play it straight in the last track. I thought 'china pig' could even be a comment on how you couldn't get a feeling for the Blues, that the time for that had passed, so you might as well recorded as cheaply as you could to try.

as far as I know there is NO improvisation in TMR, and, like mike seems to be saying, that is where the comparisons between beefheart and ornette kinda break down.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 11 April 2004 15:21 (twenty-one years ago)

''DON'T FORGET THE HAND PUPPETS, NATE! THAT WOULD SERIOUSLY ROCK ON THE RADIO!''

haha Mike you can change radio 4evah with that idea of yours.

I'd actually like to read ppl who really love their records trying to actually rip into them or their critical rep, that could make for a better read.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 11 April 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i like Perfect Sound Forever too and i like the idea of starting arguments about TMReplica if you're using it as touchstone for some other recommendations, and the token avant argument appeals to me too -- after all, Gross's piece is surely the token avant piece in this collection (look at that awful list of known targets -- so the audience for this book is "first home buyers" -- surely ornette coleman is quite conceivably alien-enough a suggestion for the musical knowledge level at which this book is pitched)

If the statement can be applied to TMR, then what are some suggestions for albums that fit this description? What are some albums that could replace it as the token avant-rock pick? Preferably albums that are old enough to be considered part of the canon, but have long been overlooked..

exactly. OTM. why aren't "a new generation of rock writers" telling us about something we might not have heard (of) a thousand times already ? the appeal of PerfectSoundForever at least is its dives at new angles. at least it helps with those parallel universes of music i haven't heard of and would like to think exist. at least it tries to help in the quest for new alien music forms, or doesn't troll through the past as though reciting a music industry catalog like Uncut or Mojo or The Wire at times (or worse, perpetuate the myth that new stuff with avant-garde trappings gets a pass and will be rewarding and enduring, that thing that The Wire does worst, in it's endless enthusiasm, particularly for those muzaky sub-genres it hypes and uses for bread and butter sales)

new experience please, like "new writers" consider established "classics" if you must, but how about discussing/dissing /whatever the so-called "classics" and then saying :
"and/but if you like/hate this, you'll love [complimentary album that i might actually not have heard (of even)]"

in other words, any quibble with Gross and his piece would be minor given the rest, the conservative back-to-the-future cd re-issue "canonisation" /re-invention of the wheel that is the bulk of albums listed here

and as i read down the top of this thread my heart sank, realising it wasn't "kill 'yr idols" as intended (ie never mind the sex pistols, here's something surprising or new or interesting and sexy), that (these) "new writers" (mostly) aren't sticking their necks out with new recommendations, just chewing fat on stuff everyone already has opinions/ arguments galore over -- it's like English professors considering opinion on another professor's opinion on "canonical" 100 year old literary classic -- this may as well be acknowledging "rock writing" as just like any other hack work, like it's professional pass-the-parcel -- surely we all hope that all "rock writing" isn't like that ?

― george gosset (gegoss), Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

"Veterans Day Poppy" was an earlier track that they stuck on there. I think they were still recording some Strictly Personal era tracks when that was recorded. It was after Harkelroad joined, though, so it is the Trout Mask band.

What did the person say about it? It's not like it's that out of place on the album.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread was pretty good:


I really WANT to like Trout Mask Replica...

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

but i'm still waiting for Geir's book:


Ten "cannonical" albums that are closer to dud than classic.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Julio, try and hear the instrumental versions of the TMaskR material on that Grow Fins box set. my impression from that is yes, no improsisations.
and the zoot horn rollo book paints the picture of a band improvising around the house and van vliet selecting bits they were creating and saying "i can use that" -- as though he was editing their improvising, turning their inventions into parts of songs by insisting they learn such'n'such a bit -- seems as though the band practised lots, but as to whether the original ideas were belted out by van vliet on a piano or selected carefully from months of experiments and meticulous practising of parts by the majic band .. well the book seeems to shatter the "dashed out over 8 hours on a standup piano" story .. maybe van vliet could recreate or remind the band of some rhythms with the piano, use it like a sketch pad

― george gosset (gegoss), Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, Julio, there have been puppet shows on the radio, most famously Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy.

Dubsky -- I don't know if there any good replacements to TMR on the canon, but on further thought there are a few other token avant-rock albums that appear on best-albums-ever lists, namely Zappa/Mothers' We're Only In It For the Money and Eno's Another Green World, with maybe Can, Bowie's Berlin trilogy, Bitches Brew, and Kraftwerk making their appearances every once in a while.

George -- lacking most of the actual essays themselves, it's hard to say whether the writers do nudge the reader into other possibilities, both musically and critically, but given the conservativism of the writers I'm familiar with, my suspicion is that the best we'll get might be something on the order of "Wilco Sux, Uncle Tupelo was sooo much better." I'd like to be proven wrong.

Anyway, I feel a little awkward judging a book I haven't read, but all the evidence I have of it drastically limits how good the book can ultimately be. Some of those quotes are just unforgiveable regardless of their context -- the "Lovely Rita" musings are arguably homophobic in their crudeness.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't know about Jeff Cotton, but I do know that both John French and Bill Harkelroad regard the music on TMR as something of which they remain quite proud, despite the things Beefheart put them through at the time. (This is not to say that the cult-like environment from which it was created is Gross' main criticism of the album, but he does mention it early in the piece in an attempt to reinforce the general sense he's creating of the album just being an all-around disaster.)

I don't get thinking that Doc at the Radar Station and Ice Cream for Crow are great and Trout Mask Replica stinks either. Isn't TMR just a little bit more extreme in terms of compositional density?

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

It's pretty extreme in comparison with every other Beefheart album. Which aren't all that extreme.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I should play Trout Mask Replica when the baby wakes up. I never play it. But I play every other Beefheart album every once in a while. I guess it isn't my fave album by him.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

"It's pretty extreme in comparison with every other Beefheart album. Which aren't all that extreme."

I don't think I agree. I don't think it's that much more extreme than Lick My Decals Off and I think the post-Shiny Beast music was a move back in that direction.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 17:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I got all my beefheart albums out. i'm gonna play them all in a row. I'll get back to you. I haven't played Lick My Decals in a while either. I love that album.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Anybody got any numbers on how many copies of the horribly overrated trout mask have actually been sold since it came out?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha! Yeah, it's as good as i remember. I might not play it that much and it might not be my fave album by them, but it's so very wonderful in places. I just love that band so much. I could listen to them play forever. I need that Grow Fins. I never bought it. It's definitely an album where the things that someone loves about it would be the very same things that someone else would hate about it. Or maybe every album is like that. i dunno. Some of my favorite guitar playing ever.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Scott, I'm a little lukewarm about Grow Fins, honestly. I'm looking at it now...There are some good demos and live tracks on the first two discs. The Trout Mask sessions disc is the tapes recorded in their house--Beefheart never recorded vocal tracks on them. They're fun (you can have Trout Mask karaoke), but the recordings of the songs aren't as good as the studio versions--you can't hear the bass well. I haven't listened to it much. The CD-Rom footage is cool, but I'd actually seen some of that stuff before so that affected the way I felt about it with regard to the price of the package. And I haven't listened to the fifth disc much either, which is later period outtakes and demos. I should listen to that again.

I just bring this up because of the price of the package. Maybe there are some affordable used copies. The booklet is cool.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Improv on TMR = Don's sax playing surely

Grow Fins is great. It's a must for any Don fan. One of the best things about it is the live videos - the one for "Electricity" is awesome. Some good interviews and a nice essay by John Corbett too.

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 11 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I would buy it used.

Listening again, I'm reminded that i don't LOVE Trout Mask. I love the band and i can ignore any of the Zappa-isms cuz i'm really good at ignoring stuff like that so it doesn't ever really bug me too much. But listening to Lick My Decals right now I'm reminded how much i really do love that. And I could say the same thing about Safe As Milk and some of the others. I think it all boils down to the cover. Trout mask just had a really good cover. It had to be the masterpiece. Even if I do find the other records more pleasurable I do still think that TMR is goofy and entertaining as well. In that dude's essay he sez it's a good "idea" and all that and brings up Warhol's Empire as a good idea that you wouldn't want to sit through. I don't find it quite that torturous! Now some zappa records on the other hand...

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Anybody got any numbers on how many copies of the horribly overrated trout mask have actually been sold since it came out?

The only numbers on the album I've ever seen are from a Byron Coley story where he wrote: "As to Trout Mask Replica, Reprise kept it in print as a two-LP set until the early ‘90s, by which time it had sold about 70,000 copies." Can we assume half that number bought CD copies in the last 12 years or so?

― Vic Funk, Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you think they kept it in print that long cuz it was supposed to be one of the greatest rock albums of all time?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I remember reading some time in the '80's that when an album's annual sales dipped below 10,000-20,000 copies (maybe fewer -- can't remember), it would typically be deleted from a record company's catalog. If the total sales by the '90's only got as high as 70,000, that's a measly 3,000-4,000 copies a year, which makes its continuous availability really puzzling, especially when other, much more popular albums of their time kept lapsing in and out of print well into the CD age.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it must have been all those fine music writers overrating it for all those years that kept it in print. Bless their hearts.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

(By the way...isn't the book title wrong, or at least compromised? Shouldn't it be "YR." or "Yr.", not "Your"?)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe there still isn't a readily available CD of Decals. What in god's name is going on?

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Aren't there a lot of strange CD-release issues surrounding a number of other Bizarre/Straight albums, like stuff by the GTOs, Wild Man Fischer, and early Alice Cooper?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Axl Rose had a shirt during the Use Your Illusion-era that said "Kill Your Idols" with a picture of Jesus on it. Maybe the title is a homage to the shirt.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

That was actually mass-produced as a tee-shirt to wear as well. I had one when I was about 12.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Rather than the Sonic Youth EP? Ah, Anthony, that's the best possible explanation.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Re. Trout Mask staying in print: Was it always in print, though? I don't remember seeing new vinyl copies around in the '80s. I did buy a new cassette copy of it in 1988 or so.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 11 April 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

but as its been pointed out, the EP is titled "Kill Yr. Idols"!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

there was an article mocking Axl's shirt in SPIN re: "yr." too

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Is Axl a big S.Y. fan? They should jam together. They could back him up.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

the last G'N'R line-up had three guitars too. Axl + SY on a bunch of Skynyrd covers...

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

actually I want Axl and SY to cover skynyrd at a Cobain memorial concert

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just stupid enough to enjoy that!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

axl could print up a new "Kill Your Idols" shirt with a picture of Cobain on it! Fuck shit up!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 11 April 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Anthony, I hope you don't think I was mocking you -- that really *is* the best possible explanation!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 12 April 2004 00:00 (twenty-one years ago)

gotcha, Mike

http://koszulki.win.pl/sklep_online/images/img_thumb/d563e8d9d15edadb57a61871ea837fb6.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 12 April 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Also there was evidently a Kill Your Idols SERIES of books that included this tome about Elvis Costello
(you can see the phrase in the upper right hand corner)

http://www.cosmik.com/aa-march01/pics/ev-elvis_costello.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 12 April 2004 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Poor Elvis. He'ill always be on these deconstructivist lists, he is so eminently killable.

― de, Monday, 12 April 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Re. Trout Mask staying in print: Was it always in print, though? I don't remember seeing new vinyl copies around in the '80s. I did buy a new cassette copy of it in 1988 or so.

If it only sold 70,000 copies in 20+ years, it's probably safe to assume that Reprise's 1977 vinyl reissue of it lasted a long, long time and didn't need to be re-pressed all that often.

If the total sales by the '90's only got as high as 70,000, that's a measly 3,000-4,000 copies a year, which makes its continuous availability really puzzling

Until the Warner executives shake-ups of the mid-1990s, Warner Bros had a ridiculously artist growth friendly reputation, where they put music first. Perhaps that accounts for it's availablility?

― Vic Funk, Monday, 12 April 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Just in case you were wondering what a review would have to look like to be rejected from this book, here you go.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 12 April 2004 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

That whole thread seems like a confusion.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 12 April 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

so is sound opinions always that awful?

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

broheems => I guess yr right abt the sax playing but I think its only on 2-3 tracks, so I forgot that.

His improvising on the sax seems to be even more far out on disc 5 of 'grow fins' and I'm specifically talking about the live version of 'when big joan sets up'. That disc is the best of the three discs I downloaded (CD 1 and 3 are the others). I've only given one listen to each disc so far and the TMR sessions (disc 3) were good, seemed to be better recorded too but not necessarily more enjoyable than the final version with don's voice.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 12 April 2004 07:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Just checking that other board: is ILX labelled as some sort of critic's who can't get published enuff board rather than just another board (I don't check any others)?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 12 April 2004 08:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Reading the Marquee Moon essay in light of the Kill Your Idols extracts, I'm puzzled by this hysterical insistence on calling overrated albums not merely bad or "fake," but fraud. It just seems very foreign to my sensibilties -- even when I violently hate a piece of music others love, or when I suspect others like something for dubious reasons, or even when I think people exaggerate their praise for a record, I don't assume any of this is because people know better but are too cowed by the status quo to say what they really think.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 12 April 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, you know how it is: people who like albums you don't are BRAINWASHED.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

you guys are coming off as jealous on this thread--isn't this book what you do all the time? Haters.

― shookout (shookout), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah none of us will ever be real writers like these guys

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

or like editors or nothin

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

haha are u from that board that Nate linked to earlier in this thread?

x-post: come on strongo don't put yrself down like this.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

haha "u" julio?? you've been reading spizzazzz too much

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

that's what the 'blogosphere' does to 'yr' (I got yr from sonic youth, not from this thread btw) english.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

FYI, Barricade Books also publishers "The Turner Diaries." Hm.

― shookout (shookout), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone should do 'The Queen is Dead' or 'Power Corruption & Lies' or 'Entertainment!' or 'Singles Going Steady' or 'Pink Flag' or '1999'

― dave q, Monday, 12 April 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Lemme tell ya something...there are at least three (maybe four) rock writers I can think of whose talents fill me with jealousy: all of them post to ILx (though very infrequently, at least nowadays) and all of them are very theory-oriented and proceed as if overintellectualizing things is the new fun. Which it is.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 12 April 2004 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone defended this book by calling the participants of this thread "haters." Um, OK...

Also, "jealous"--of what, the money? The introduction says the book's writers deferred their payments. And a lot of people on ILM are actually professional writers themselves.

― Archie Leach (Archie Leach), Monday, 12 April 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

overintellectualizing things is the new fun.

otm. I can't do it so I just read it.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 12 April 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"FYI, Barricade Books also publishers "The Turner Diaries." Hm."
WHOA! And I always thought of Derog as the Rush Limbaugh of rock cricket-dom, so there ya go...

― lovebug starski, Monday, 12 April 2004 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeep! There's unsettled info for ya.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 12 April 2004 23:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't bothered reading all of the 200+ posts (and I'm going to reserve judgment on the book itself until reading it) but, to me, the concept seems kind of forced.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

'Pink Flag'

Not in this lifetime

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah. DeRogatis writes about his original ideas for the book in his foreward (which is on his website) and, while the original idea may not have been forced, I can see that the individual processes of certain writers trying to come up with some album they think is rotten and overrated might have been forced.

X-post

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 13 April 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Some of the selections seem to be records that sold well but were hated by critics or the other way around. Sure, the Eagles sold 1,000000000000000000 records but were they universally loved and acclaimed?

I find it interesting that Ram is listed because I do not think any McCartney solo shit was universally accepted as a classic when released not even Band on the Run. Did not most of his records get awful reviews as underachieving ex-mop top bullshit even though they sold well?

I actually think McCartney's early solo music has aged rather well once the weight of the Beatles' myth faded (oh so slightly). Ram, McCartney and Wild Life have a ton of great home recorded pop.

― Justin Farrar (Justin Farrar), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 02:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Some of the selections seem to be records that sold well but were hated by critics or the other way around. Sure, the Eagles sold 1,000000000000000000 records but were they universally loved and acclaimed?

Well, if so, Hotel California or Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975 seem like more obvious subjects than Desperado. And there are plenty of mega-selling/crit-hated albums not covered in KYI that seem completely appropriate and ripe for abuse.

It's funny that I'm a huge Beatles fan, I bought Plastic Ono Band and All Things Must Pass and even Ringo but never a Macca solo or Wings album, not even a greatest hits package. I just never got around to it. I suppose I should rectify that one day.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone know who this Archie Leach guy is?

Is he reviewing the book?

Is it a pseudonym for Matos or Frere-Jones?

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW: I'm the guy who wrote the piece on "Marquee Moon".

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I honestly don't know who he is.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:40 (twenty-one years ago)

On the other hand, if I did know, I think I'd respect Mr. Leach's anonymity -- I don't think there's anything especially risible about his comments.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(Ram is actually a really fun record, Michael. I bet you would like it.)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe. The pot-addled formlessness of "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" has always irked me -- on the other hand, everyone knows what lengths I've gone to defend Guided By Voices, so sometimes I have a high tolerance for the homemade and the structurally whimsical.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

"On the other hand, if I did know, I think I'd respect Mr. Leach's anonymity -- I don't think there's anything especially risible about his comments."


Didn't say that there was, just asking out of curiosity.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I kinda assumed that, but I just wanted to say that to be clear.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

"Also, "jealous"--of what, the money? The introduction says the book's writers deferred their payments. And a lot of people on ILM are actually professional writers themselves."

Like somebody standing in a pig-sty proving with impeccable and undeniable logic that no pigs could possibly have shat there. Despite the saturating, obnoxious stink.

― CaryGrant, Tuesday, 13 April 2004 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Kill Your Idols
A New Generation of Rock Writers
Reconsiders the Classics
Edited by Jim DeRogatis and Carmél Carrillo
Coming from Barricade Books in June 2004!

Thirty-five of the best rock writers of Generations X and Y each weigh in on an album that's universally considered "a classic"—-but which they think sucks.

I'm just bemused by the idea that DeRogatis considers himself part of Generation X!

Scott Seward should write something about Mellon Collie, somewhere.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

That he should. It would rule!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

But you might get hurt!

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

And? It would still rule! Besides, you have to remember there is a watermark he has to aim for -- Everett True's spectacular demolition via live review from 1993...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

That may be my favorite piece of music writing, if only for the fact that it caused crybaby Billy to dress up in a clown suit.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

If Scott can write something that causes Billy to take a new photo of himself in a clown suit and post it on his website, then he will have taken the crown.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Or maybe he'll just dress as a pirate or a pierrot, to mix it up a little.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

But wouldn't you have to like him if he dressed up as a pirate?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

No, he'd find a way to make it look stupid. Trust me.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe he could be a dandy highwayman, because ridicule is nothing to be scared of.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

It's obvious that he hasn't been scared for the majority of his career, then.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

So clearly you must salute him for his bravery! And self-control! Wait, let me think about that last part.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...
I made the mistake of spending money on this book. I am a fool.

― J (Jay), Monday, 19 July 2004 01:17 (twenty years ago)

this was a great thread before it devolved into cap'beefheart stuff. its a shame nate doesn't post anymore. but I read Spin and he had a review in there so maybe he has better stuff to do. he is a big shot now!

― artdamages (artdamages), Monday, 19 July 2004 02:18 (twenty years ago)

haha, that colombian necktie crack was hilarious!

― dave k, Monday, 19 July 2004 02:57 (twenty years ago)

I'm not gonna say who, but one of the writers has a blog with a account of their non-ironic participation in a Defense of Marriage rally.

Said writer once got into a blog war with me because I called said participants "morons" and "hate-filled." Said writer also exchanged several e-mails with me in the process, in which said writer came off as nice enough and all, but not too bright. Which would probably describe a great many people who would unironically participate in such a rally.

― phil dennison, Monday, 19 July 2004 08:12 (twenty years ago)

All I can say is that this book was absolutely stuffed with terrible writing. There may be two or three good essays in it.

― J (Jay), Monday, 19 July 2004 12:01 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry, but I have to share -- it's in the author's bio section, but this may be the funniest line in the book:

"Adrian Brijbassi's first novel, 50 Mission Cap (Trafford, 2001), was inspired by the music of the Tragically Hip..."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 12:09 (twenty years ago)

*faints*

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 12:12 (twenty years ago)

There are no words.

― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Oh there are words all right. But we are observing decorum.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 13:09 (twenty years ago)

Man, wait till you guys read my first novel I'm basing on a fictionalized version of Our Lady Peace!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 13:59 (twenty years ago)

Do they get into a fight with Moist and then go and dance to Tea Party songs?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago)

shh, ned don't give away the plot! you will be hearing from my legal team.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago)

F. U. GORDON DOWNIE OR WHATEVER YOUR REAL NAME IS YOU TOQUE-SMOKING BACK BACON-CHOKING HOSER.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 14:16 (twenty years ago)

I must say, the special kind of hate directed at this book is really interesting.

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 14:55 (twenty years ago)

I think people are more bemused by the book than anything.

― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:00 (twenty years ago)

It is more pity and awe.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:01 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry, but I have to share -- it's in the author's bio section, but this may be the funniest line in the book:

"Adrian Brijbassi's first novel, 50 Mission Cap (Trafford, 2001), was inspired by the music of the Tragically Hip..."

de gustibus non est disputandum. humor however. ;-)

― jesus nathalie (nathalie), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:14 (twenty years ago)

At least one chapter from this book has already gone on reserve here at UCI as part of some recent social studies class. I have no idea what to think. (It was the Fugazi chapter, unsurprisingly.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Fugazi chapter?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:45 (twenty years ago)

Bah, my brain hurts, I was confusing this with Our Band Could Be Your Life.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:45 (twenty years ago)

Ah... see, that's a GOOD book. I was about to lose all faith in mankind if people were teaching second-rate alternative newsweekly writing in college classes.

― Major McTwitch (kenan), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:47 (twenty years ago)

Our Band Could Be Your Life...I wouldn't call it 'good'.

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:49 (twenty years ago)

I would.

― Major McTwitch (kenan), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:51 (twenty years ago)

Thats what makes you you and me me.

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 15:52 (twenty years ago)

I would describe "Our Band Could Be Your Life" as one book that killed thirteen books.

― shookout (shookout), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 16:29 (twenty years ago)

what didn't you guys like about the book? I thought it was pretty great...or was it just that you would have preferred each chapter to be developed more fully and in a longer form?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago)

I thought it was great in a lot of ways, but the writing was a little dull. I guess thats my main complaint. That and where he completely dismisses the 90s at the end. I still read it in about 2 days and then bought Vs. cause I had never heard of Mission of Burma before besides something about R.E.M. being into them or something. So I really can't complain.

― artdamages (artdamages), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago)

I would describe "Our Band Could Be Your Life" as one book that killed thirteen books.

I would say that is approximately OTM.

― dan carville weiner, Tuesday, 27 July 2004 17:24 (twenty years ago)

Probably 13 books that would never be published, though. What's the market for an in-depth bio of Husker Du?

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago)

mark otm

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 17:47 (twenty years ago)

Probably 13 books that would never be published, though

Not necessarily, especially given the rise of self-publishing. Who'd ever thought that a mini book about "Sign O the Times" would have a market? I'll bet an in-depth of Husker Du would push comparable numbers.

― dan carville weiner, Tuesday, 27 July 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago)

it's truly a bummer azerrad left out the meat puppets. i'll take meat puppets ii over any of the other great ones from the bands in that book.

― drew, Tuesday, 27 July 2004 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Hmm ... should I buy the in-depth Grant Hart bio or the novelization of the music of the Tragically Hip? Or perhaps forego them both for the collected columns of the former drummer for the rock group Gay Dad...

― briania (briania), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 19:17 (twenty years ago)

The National Review has its say. (I'm not kidding.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 18:47 (twenty years ago)

"Kill Your Idols is often bad, sometimes even disturbing, and never dull. Kind of like rock-'n'-roll, after all."

Blech.

"It's crap, sure, but let me pat this shitty book on its head in a kindly and condescending way by saying, you know, it really makes ya think, which of course is another way of saying it exercises your repetoire of knee-jerk responses, only a little quicker and sharper than usual. And that's a good thing, for some vague reason or another."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 August 2004 19:06 (twenty years ago)

four months pass...
As far as the book goes- this type of anxiety-of-influence reputation-making power play was old when H4r14n E11!son insulted Is44c 4s!mov at the sci-fi convention way back when. As far as the thread goes- it was pretty entertaining.

― Ken L (Ken L), Sunday, 26 December 2004 06:17 (twenty years ago)

I thought the Radiohead essay, which I read at the Barnes and Noble, as spot-on.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Sunday, 26 December 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago)

Besides, you have to remember there is a watermark he has to aim for -- Everett True's spectacular demolition via live review from 1993...

Is that online anywhere?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Sunday, 26 December 2004 18:39 (twenty years ago)

Would have been way more interesting seeing some 68'ers take on recent canonical releases by Public Enemy, 2 Pac, Leftfield, Prodigy, Nirvana, Metallica, Human League, ABC etc.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 27 December 2004 02:10 (twenty years ago)

A great rock album should scare your parents

The worst mistake done by so many fans and critics alike throughtout rock history is the completely ridiculous idea express in this quote.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 27 December 2004 02:13 (twenty years ago)

xpost OUR BAND: been a while since I read it, but thought he didn't exactly dismiss the 90s; rather a) he was deliberately focussing on one segment of the indie timeline (pre-Alternative alternative's road trip USA, getting out of the house and local scene:a part of the 80s where tourists are less likely to be taken). Thought he *kept his focus too, by zeroing in on chosen segment. Chosen, however, b) cos he seemed to want to end it right when the girls (incl. gurls, grrrrls, women, etc.) got into the clubhouse. Something about girls imiating Calvin of Beat Happening, like they done stole ol Calvin's blues (and pinks)!? So the book also ends where it should, in terms of his sparing us his possibly skewed-to-warped view of 90s (maybe I'm inferring too much; hope so, re what he might still write). Which 13 books did it kill? I bet some of those musos will write their own,sooner or later.(Mike Watt, hopefully, if it's not too painful given the loss of Boon. "Hopefully" because he's a good writer, judging by what I've read online.)

― don, Monday, 27 December 2004 10:31 (twenty years ago)

sixteen years pass...

This thread displays a lot of anticipation for the book, but not much comment on the book itself. I read this when it came out, and decided to look at it again now that I've heard all the records discussed.
It was pretty dispiriting. Too many of the essays display a lot of snark but not much wit; I agree with the person on Goodreads who said, "there is not a choice paragraph or phrase one comes away with". It made me wonder if bad reviews should be epigrammatic, confined to a maximum length of a paragraph.
I'm always willing to read criticism, even of things that I enjoy, but there's something inert about a piece of writing designed to tell you why a record is bad, especially if the writer feels that the record violates some sort of First Principle of Rock; so Pet Sounds and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot fail because they don't scare your parents, while Kick Out the Jams and the Public Enemy albums fail because it's wrong to scare your parents.
There's also a disjunct between the writers who have picked an album they think is OK, but overrated, and those who hate the entire genre or the artist. The former group feel they have to puff up their "hate" to keep the reader's interest; the latter display the irrelevance of their point-of-view.
I'm looking over the table of contents, and despite having read the book twice, most recently in the past week, I can't remember a single thing about more than half of the chapters.
The worst essay is probably Jim Walsh on Rumours; although it contains a fantasy of assassinating the band, it's really more about the author's loathing of his job as a newspaper rock critic, which in 2021 is fortunately no longer a problem for him.
Best essays:
- Chris Martiniano on Blood on the Tracks - he makes a number of incisive observations on the point-of-view of the songs and the structure of the record, though he is obsessed with making all 10 songs describe a single real life relationship.
- Dave Chamberlain on Exodus - sees the record as an overrated lull in Marley's oeuvre, discusses it in relation to his biography, discography and the state of reggae in 1977.
- Marco Leavitt on Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables - a measured appraisal of the lyrical and musical flaws.

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 2 August 2021 15:33 (three years ago)

I prefer Kill All Your Darlings.

― Two Severins Clash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 August 2021 16:18 (three years ago)


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