More hypocrisy from the Guardian - why does Petridish get away with it when Big Ron doesn't?

If we can get this fucking board to WORK PROPERLY!!!!!!!!

Right. Try again.

Erstwhile Grauniad sports columnist Ron Atkinson gets the boot from the paper for his indisputably stupid comment.

Meanwhile, the Petridish makes fun of how funny those black people talk and keeps his job.

Still, I suppose selective racism is all par for the course at the Grauniad these days - they certainly have no problem using it against Palestinians on a daily basis.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 08:14 (twenty-one years ago)

what makes you think the chatroom girls are black, marcello?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

This is why I haven't bought the Grauny for years. How come he can earn cash money for writing about things he knows nothing about while I'm sat at home playing Eye-Toy Groove?

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

this makes me think he's a bigger wanker and has prompted me to revive my old home. big piece coming up over the weekend. condescending, arrogant fool of a man.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I think what he's saying is, "Why bother with Theory when you can churn out inept racist screeds in 10 minutes?"

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Pros seem very keen to differentiate themselves from Bloggers these days.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just realised he knows fuck all about Hume or Kant, either. < / irony >

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

well, as i say is he really being racist? how can we tell these girls are black. it's impossible. they could be turkish, asian, or white. people talk like this in east london, no matter what race. more a case of a pompous self-proclaimed authority on everything taking any opportunity to look down his nose at people. really shows what a fucking mediocrity he is 1) you're laugable if you're clever and well-read 2) you're equally laughable if you're an inner-vcity working-class kid.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if Petridish assumed the chatroom girls were black, but it's probably more classism than anything else.

The NERD interview in the Grau a while back was full of racist undercurrents too... can't remember who did it, it wasn't Petridish.

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, he's being smug and patronising rather than actually racist.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:33 (twenty-one years ago)

thanks at last to Ricardo for pointing out the obvious (and I mean that in a nice way to you)

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

that's what i'm saying alex. guardian promoting middle-class culture over all else? what a shocker. does this even need a thread? paul lester did the nerd thing and as much as i'm not a fan of his stuff i didn't see anything racist in it.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

well, i think i pointed it out in the post above on two different levels, but what the hey...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Fair play, Dave, but I was just thinking of the impression that the casual Friday Review reader, who wouldn't necessarily know about the scene or East London patois, would get from reading it, viz. more funny music by black people, no proper tunes, they talk daft, etc.

The strange thing about Petridish is how failure seems to be all around him. Failed music magazine editor, failed TV presenter, and most of his Grauniad articles seem to be about failure; failure to interview Kraftwerk, failure to find out what the first rock and roll song was.

Also, when he does his kneejerk jibing at bloggers, does it never occur to him that the Pro and Blogger camps overlap, i.e. there are people like Stelfox, me, Reynolds, Darnielle etc. who do earn at least part of their living from writing about music professionally, just the same as he does? So the subtext of "you bloggers are jealous because I get paid for doing this and you don't" doesn't stand up (and anyway I know all about pay scales at the Grauniad - Petridish ain't getting paid that much).

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 08:36 (twenty-one years ago)

from experience you don't get paid that much at the guardian so i'm not especially jealous! tho i'm sure he's worked out a better deal than i did.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

The weird thing that Mark S told me way back was that if you wanted to do broadsheet music writing, you're way better off going to the Times or the Torygraph as they (a) pay better rates and (b) don't have the same patronising middle-class subtext of the Grauniad, mostly because they don't actually know that much about pop and will therefore trust anyone who looks like they know what they're talking about. Stevie Chick of this parish writes for the Times so I'm sure he'd back me up on this. Personally, the papers' carpet-slipper Toryism continues to put me off trying; but maybe it oughtn't.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

paul lester did the nerd thing and as much as i'm not a fan of his stuff i didn't see anything racist in it.

I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was definitely something about "NERD are much better than all those other hip-hop people because they're inspired by white rock musicians".

(found it - a new archetype of "the smart, witty, literate black nerd who, ignoring the playas and thugs, flaunts his love of sci-fi and white rock'n'roll", then it goes on about ooh aren't NERD so good because they like Coldplay and Radiohead)

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

mmm, i don't think that flies. i think it's more a crate-digging thing. they have a perceptible wider view of music as a whole than other hip-hop producers. this is actually total bullshit as i know the guy who was responsible for swizzbeats's sample-clearance and some of his sources were mind-blowing, much more diverse than the neptunes. th times is nota good place to write features fow - reviews, it's great and they pay wel.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

The Wire did the same thing with cLOUDDEAD, i.e. thank God for intelligent, literate, well-read (subtext: white) rappers, not like those terrible, vulgar, money-orientated (subtext: black) oafs like 50 Cent.

I used to like Dave Tompkins' writing in The Wire but boy was he so wrong about The College Dropout.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm reposting that:

mmm, alex, i don't think that flies. i think it's more a crate-digging thing. the orthodox view is that nerd/the neps have a wider view of music as a whole than other hip-hop producers, according to their sources. personally i think this is actually total bullshit. i think this for many reasons, but i do know the guy who was responsible for swizzbeats's sample-clearance and some of his sources were mind-blowing, much more diverse than the neptunes. the times is not a good place to write features for - reviews, it's great and they pay well.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

All manner of rappers like Coldplay for some reason, do they not?

This has been covered on threads previous, though.

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

timbaland loves them. was in an nyt mag piece by sfj raving abt them

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just got the 'Petridish' joke! It's very funny!

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Jamelia and Justin T love Cplay as well :(

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 23 April 2004 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't all the old school rappers back in the 1989 day idolise Phil Collins?

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 08:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah. There's a tribute album where loads of hip hop and r&b artists do Phil Collins covers.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

But that's from about 97, I think.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Very likely to be the 'William Shatner Sings' or whatever of our tomorrows

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

As for the review, it just seems patronising and poorly thought-out to me too - why spend that long analysing the surrounding culture if you're obviously fairly disdainful of it, and about three paras on the album which you've given four stars?

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Cos he's a nobhead.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Funnily enough, in his N.E.R.D review the other week, Petridis mentioned watching Ice-T on The Word, circa 1991 proudly showing off his Phil Collins CDs. But I fear I may have missed a subtle Marcello joke in stating this.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

But that's from about 97, I think.

If only it were so long ago, perhaps we could forget...it was 2001:

http://bestcovers.tgnetwk.com/audio/phil_collins_urban_renewal_front.jpg

I interviewed DJ Spinna a while back and he kept banging on about the amazing drums on "In The Air Tonight" (fair comment, as it happens). I think it's a simple US/UK split here - PC doesn't have "twat" tattooed so obviously across his forehead in the US.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The weird thing that Mark S told me way back was that if you wanted to do broadsheet music writing, you're way better off going to the Times or the Torygraph

Don't know anything about journalism but this sounds about right - never trust a liberal/ hippy. Mark S or Mark E. Smith?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Petridis has a 'rant' feature on Radio 6 where he picks a subject every week and moans about it. Example: Bob Dylan promoting underwear. It's very bad. I think it might be Friday afternoons.

If it's any consolation, novelists take the piss out of people who publish on the internet as well, it's not just music journalists. I suppose they're just trying to discourage people so that they have less competition. Trouble is, it works.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Radio 6?!??!?!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

BBC 6 Music, then.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

What will they think of next?!??!?!

PJ Miller - you know Petridis used to be on Sinister?

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

in the air tonight is a fantastic record and i'll figjht anyone that can't admit that. that said, brandy's version of another day in paradise nearly destroyed the love i have for her.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

What, as a normal person? Or some kind of private detective of pop thing?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Atkinson is a football manager/pundit recognised by millions and generally well liked. His attitudes have some cultural importance.

Petridish is read by a comparatively tiny amount of people. 99% of them won't be able to tell you what his column said half an hour after they've finished reading it. The other 1% are music journalists.

― hidayglo, Friday, 23 April 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

... and he isn't exactly well liked either... by anyone

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

phil collins love:

1) duet with phillip bailey

2) "sussudio" sokay fake prince

3) what dave said re: "in the air tonight"

4) if the breaks site wasn't down there might be more (dude is a drummer)

phil collins is reognized as a twat over here though (cf: south park episode that introduced 'timmy!')

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Was he that guy who did Ceefax?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Real person, PJ - there were kisses at the end of his posts and everything.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

also i'm not sure if it matters that white/indian/samoan/whatever girls talk 'that way' too, the origins of that slang are what matter (as to what race that would be you tell me) and it's having been successfully integrated only makes it a bigger target for racists; hip-hop slang has permeated american culture (eg. tim russert on meet the press asking colin powell if he'd been dissed by the white house re: the woodward book), but when someone, in particular daft newspaper columnists, uses hip-hop slang mockingly to dismiss or mock those who use it sincerely there's little doubt that the asshole's a racist.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Instead, its fanbase is comically polarised. At one extreme, its sonic experimentation has attracted the kind of people who run music blogs in which records are referred to as "texts" and lengthy essays are posted on such burning issues as the differentiation between Humean and Kantian views of motivation in the lyrics of Bonnie Prince Billy. At the other extreme, it is favoured by inner-city teens who appear to communicate entirely in an impenetrable mix of street slang and patois. "Gial like me can be flossin' on dis rite ere," offers one participant in a chatroom discussion about grime. Another reliably informs us that Wiley is "nang standard no doubt". Well, of course he is.

What an utter fucking shithead, I've defended him before but this is ridiculous, read a fucking blog, they're nothing like that, just good writers/nice people. What a totally ignorant position that is, he simply places a few academic references in the right place in a sarcastic tone in order to ridicule people but what he's really doing is painting himself as an enemy of knowledge, and suggesting that in depth analysis is something radical, something which should be ignored. And in a paper that's supposed to be liberal!

I can't believe that, that's a terrible approach and I am certain it's jealousy, I realise that's wheeled out alot but I know for a fact most paid journos would kill to write like the main bloggers, mainly because I myself feel that way.

I don't know if it's racist or not but it's certainly annoyed me this morning.

(Easy Lover rules also, as I said on ILX, we NEED an Alan Braxe or a Bangalter mix of it, desperately)

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

for example this prompted widespread outrage

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.rocpoint.com/01episode_Guide/season4/404_timmyshadow.jpg

"THEY'RE HOLDING YOU BACK AT THE GUARDIAN SON. TRY THE TIMES"

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.rocpoint.com/01episode_Guide/season4/404_timmyshadow.jpg

"THEY'RE HOLDING YOU BACK AT THE GUARDIAN SON - TRY THE TIMES"

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Well that was worth looking for

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

yknow that slang isn't that impenetrable to me, and i'm an american

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

just good writers/nice people

not all of them! easy lover is one of my fave records. it's in my desert island discs - reminds me of happy days and it's a good tune.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Off to the archives, then...

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

and yeah, i'm not saying that what petrdis is saying isn't suspect, you can just attack it more on class grounds and then he's got nowhere to run. you can also draw parallels with something nich griffin of the bnp once said, but i'm not going too deep into this. as i said earlier i'm reviving world of stelfox for a full rebuttal coz i want this to go out under my own name.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha ha - 'where's the poetry café?'

Seems like quite a nice young man.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Sure it's no paradise but he suggests it's more academic than it is, there's alot of the whole blogging thing is just people tipping each other off about stuff, friendliness.

I think we need to give Petridis a bad Frankie Bones mix to review.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely he's attempting a humourous exaggeration of the both polarities? It's crappy though, I agree. But it seems obvious it's not to be taken literally.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

what's wrong with being academic? the thing is that he makes it sound like we all write badly. some do; i don't. nor does simon r, phil s, or anyone he's really taking issue with. any one of us can write him and think him into the floor and this pisses me off intensely. as i said: being a member of a racially integrated working class youth culture that makes this music in the 1st place makes you a joke to him, being sharp and perceptive sets you up as a flouncing pretentious wanker. where's it deemed *right* to be? somewhere in the middle - well he's right, but there are ways of doing it. funnily enough myself, matt ingram, simon, and many other people do "cross over" with that other group of fans, we do meet, we do interact and it's fucking fun. you learn about *people* and we could all do with doing that a bit more. what he wants, though is something more anodyne, a nice presentable working class that talks properly and the rest of us not to think too much - or maybe not, that, after all would mean we'd all be as mediocre as him and he's have nothing to pour scorn on. go back to singing the praises of oasis, you tosser.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing is, he's right: most (all) grime artists do appeal to just two fanbases: the new blog intellegentsia, and inner-city kids (usually second and third generation West Indian kids). Why not telling me why this is Alexis, instead of finishing of your sentence with "both these groups are mad ghey".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 23 April 2004 09:59 (twenty-one years ago)

and i don't think any of the above writers have ever even typed the words "will oldham" until now.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:00 (twenty-one years ago)

N's right. It's a parody. It's a throw-away joke in a newspaper. I don't think it's worth all the bile. I don't know, maybe if I'd read something that joked about things that were as important to me as grime and blogging are to Dave then it would be different.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Just because Petridish used to be on Sinister and gives you the hots doesn't excuse his imbecilic writing. Richard Desmond goosestepping in his office yesterday was a "throw-away joke."

They should just give the Friday Review editor's job to Paul Morley and get Penman in as music editor (read his brilliant demolition of Trampin' in the new Wire) and then we'd all be better off.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't really agree N, I think it's a mockery rather than just a humorous exaggeration. To me it appears he's dismissing something in order to make the act of reading his own column appear more essential. On reflection this sort of thing is like crack to broadsheet music journalists, always waving a hand at imaginary "Hoxtonite" or "trendy" scenes because they're too lazy/conservative to bother trying to understand something. It's like they have to assure themselves their column is relevent by dismantling stuff. Maybe there's a certain insecurity in writing for a broadsheet music section.

I don't think it seems obvious it's not to be taken literally either, what non literal interpretation is there? I can't see any purpose to this other than bitchiness really. It really really bugs me.

As I said I've defended him before but mainly because I've felt he's not been snotty or bitchy with the stuff he wrote, that he meant well. I no longer feel that's the case, after this.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I was never a member of Sinister, Marcello.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

In this case the imaginary scene is not "hipster" but another scare word "academic".

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I was never a member of Sinister, Marcello.

I didn't say you were.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Such typical male dismissiveness of females' opinions: "Oh, you just like X because you fancy them." This is one of the most pernicious and insidious forms of sexism which seems to thrive within music journalism, and it's time for it to GO AWAY NOW.

― Super-Kate (kate), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate otm.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah exactly. i don't get the impression he thinks he speaks from a superior vantage, the classic guardian/timeout thing (man i'd be scared to say middle class or something. can i say bourgeois cos it's funny?) is to be a bit ironic about everything, and it usually stems from being aware of floating inbetween more committed poles. which isnt to criticise that side btw, who gives a fuck about commitment. he'd prob deprecate his own position in the er, discourse too if he could find the tropes and he ever needed to. the rest of the rvw doesnt feel patronising, in fact yes, yes i think he should die for usuing 'thrilling' twice and aaaah that whiskered old CHIPMUNK again

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:20 (twenty-one years ago)

o btw did i miss the giant in-joke or are some here actually comfortable with calling people JEALOUS

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

really fassy? i can understand anyone setting themselves up as being in the right as far as critical perspective goes, after all what's the point in saying "i know fuck all about this and i'm not a very good writer", but it's doing it by sniping at other people that annoys me so much.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

for the record i am totally jealous of petridis's position and the reach he has, but i think he is genuinely jealous of people who could do his job better. it's almost like he's coming out on the offensive here because of that.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I think prima fassy is otm. Petridish does this primarily because he wants to be funny, and this is the only way he knows how to achieve a 'comic' effect... sometimes he twists the entire review to fit the irony, rather than the other way round.

Kate, there are times when I think that music journalism is something of a byword for sexism - dismissing female writers, musicians, fans etc.

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

(which doesn't mean that there aren't underlying feelings of classism etc just that I don't think he thinks about them too deeply) (shockah)

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I generally wouldn't be comfortable with calling people jealous but in this case yes I am. Jealousy isn't mutually related or something, sure people would like his job etc etc, doesn't mean he can't be jealous of them too.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Petridis is the second summer of love equivalent of a bleeding ponytail.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

yes but really how bloody and heartfelt was the snipe? ok it was cheap and careless and a bit lame and i'm sure someone will come along and tell me 'ah yes naive fassy but even our smallest blithe jokery hides the greater malignant evil' but... please. yes he's probably a bit insecure. so do u think the rest of his rvw backs up what u've accused him of?

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

i've accused him of nothing more than being a snob, both in the traditional sense and the inverted one, so the review has little to do with it really. and i actually agree with quite a lot of what he's saying about the record!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

plus he has not exactly done the same as atkinson.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Prima Fassy OTM.

It's a quick fit-the-word-count way of explaining the culture surrounding grime to an audience who have an interest, not an obsession with music, who probably don't live in London and are a little older.

x-post with Dave re: Big Ron. Exactly. Racism is a strong term to throw about.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:37 (twenty-one years ago)

His greatest weakness is that he doesn't give the impression of having his formed his own thoughts about things. His writing is often a distilled version of 'the right thing to say'. He does that job quite well though, and I think maybe it suits the job spec of being a broadsheet pop critic.

I think Dave is right that he gives the impression of enving other writers, like he is worried he'll get mocked by more profound thinkers. But I guess this insecurity is waning a bit.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:38 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a quick fit-the-word-count way of explaining the culture surrounding grime

he really should have left well alone. i'd probably have agreed with him, if he'd just stuck to writing about the music.

right thing to say... I think maybe it suits the job spec of being a broadsheet pop critic.

surely that's not exactly criticism

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:41 (twenty-one years ago)

xposts but i cant be arsed

someone said above that 99% will forget the rvw in 20 mins and 1% that care are journos, i think that's partly true in that petridis is addressing a similar reader to himself who's probably a bit bewildered at the remote passions surrounding a cd and needs a middleground however weak we may find it. petridis prob does know soemone could nail the phenom a lot better but he prob also knows his is a necessary position too. i dont think many ppl have said much more of use about wiley than he has fundamentally

the rvw is important because it's pretty sympathetic and balanced i think and takes wiley on his own terms, which undercuts the perceived snobbishness somewhat. as i say snob demands a higher position whereas petridis' (at least here anyway) comes from a selfconsciously middling place

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know how bloody and heartfelt it was, I'm not calling him satan or a racist or anything, I just really have a thing about that sort of congratulatory tone.

I think the review would have been just as good without any reference to people blogging, or without that particular reference. It's exaggerated, in the first place, and secondly it sticks out on a technical level aswell, I know it's extremely tempting to let something that bugs you but isn't necessarily relevent get into a review but I think in this case it's sad that he did.

I think, for me, it goes slightly (not majorly) beyond cheap and careless. I guess I just think he should leave the subject alone.

This reminds me of Dom's anecdote about Alexis speaking about the blogs at his college, and saying something like "who on earth even knows what microhouse is???"

It's that "haha something different" humour which really gets under my skin, there was another thread where I really got het up about it aswell, personal thing I guess!

It's like a joke that's funny because everyone should get it.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

i cvan see what you're saying fassy and i can understand it, it's just that the "middling" place is painted as being the only right one to be in, anything else makes you a dimwitted ruffian or a pseud.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

btw, did you see the bug thread re voom voom?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)

haha who the fuck does know what microhouse or schaffel is! its the next step that counts, whether u listen to the explanation sincerely, and petridis does in this rvw. if u immediately accepted microhouse like 'yes yes i see' then someone will be along to call u pretentious. surely ppl can take a slight step back and see that this insano blogpride is a little bit amusing, not to denigrate the seriousness of it but c'mon

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

surely that's not exactly criticism

I only said 'maybe'. It's something (in a wider context) I think about a fair bit. Maybe it would be possible to draw non-experts in just by the force of great, uncompromising, idiosyncratic writing. But I can't think of any broadsheet pop critic that's ever done it.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

anything else makes you a dimwitted ruffian or a pseud.

Give me dimwitted ruffians or give me death!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Well fassy I barely even blog, I read a few blogs on a regular basis. It's as much a gripe with the style for me, I guess it could be about anything and it might annoy me.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

"it's just that the "middling" place is painted as being the only right one to be in, anything else makes you a dimwitted ruffian or a pseud"

yeah i just dont get this totalizing impression, maybe he shouldnt assume EVERYONE reading is in his boat but he wouldnt be hugely wrong. like i dont think he's saying blogpseudness, even if he has made a grotesque of it, is always wrong just convoluted, and i dont think he makes his ruffians diwitted either

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing is though that he DOES know what microhouse is! he just chooses this "don't think too much, don't overanalyze, just feel it" psoition, it's what kodwo eshun called bovine.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate it when people knock cows.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sick of your bovine sympathising.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the way you stick to saying envy instead of jelousy, well done

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

When I grow up I'm going to Bovine University

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

actually i find peddling exonyms to be the least thinky part of it all

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, it's nearly as bad as condemning working class kids because you don't want your "hard-earned taxes" being spent on educating them.

Kate, just go away now. As far away from this board as possible.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello, remember that ILX break you keep saying you have gone on permanently?

― Super-Kate (kate), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, personally speaking, I resent my hard-earned taxes being spent on dole payments to bored computer programmers who could work if they wanted to, or on Arts Council grants to "sound artists."

You want to play that game, K, I'll play it.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

so sexism is the necessary 'lesser of two evils' in this case eh? who knew woman-hatin' worked so well as an anti-racist device!

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost wow this one's gonna be a whopper...

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Who said anything about woman hating? Females fancy males. It's a basic fact of human existence. Deal with it.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"You want to play that game, I'll play it" is not quite up to '"Don't try it", but we're on the right track.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I used up my stock of "don't try it"s with Peschek this morning. I admit this doesn't flow off the tongue quite so easily. I'll try and think of a snappier meme.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello, if you want to derail your own thread with bitter ranting and pathological twistings and distortions of off-topic subjects, that's your own business. I don't have any interest in being provoked into a fight over a subject I care nothing about.

But what you said to Anna was out of line, it *was* sexist, and it irritated me.

― Super-Kate (kate), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello, as far as I can see neither Nick or Prima Fassy have been told their opinion doesn't count because they apparently have the 'hots' for the writer in question. Kate's first comment was pertinent and I was grateful she made it.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

surely the purpose of a neologism like microhouse is rather more endonymic than exonymic, in that the ones that stick are accepted the world over, everyone knows what you're talking about?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course, one of the other things I don't do on ILx is falsely accuse another poster of posting pro-rape comments under a pseudonym.

Know what I mean, Anna?

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I actually have no idea what you're talking about.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

can we go back to etymology and linguistics, please?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus Marcello can't you post here for two days without starting a load of nonsense.

x-post, Dave otm.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I would just like to make it clear that I fancy Alex Petridis. I am sure the kisses at the end of his Sinister posts were meant for me.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

as i stated further up the thread , the only thing worth fighting over is philip bailey and phil collins' easy lover...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I seriously can't stop thinking of that imaginary Bangalter remix, or a Daft Punk cover or something.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

not a cover, a bangalter mix would be glorious, though

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I know it's just stupid trolling and this is what they want, but the 'I h8 MiltonPinsky' thread is:
1) Directed at a non-troll poster
2) (the bit I mind most, sorry enrique) Contains a rape threat. I find flippant comments about rape really offensive. Could a moderator delete it/ send a stern email (apt if it's Marcello) or lock it or ban someone or something?
Thanks.

-- Anna (Fieldingann...), February 13th, 2004

Does this refresh your memory?

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

We need to send messengers to the ivory bangalter tower.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Personally I cannot see how any sentient human could get the hots over that monobrowed Hellenic doughball Petridish.

"Jesus Marcello" - that's got a nice ring to it...

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh heck. Don't do this people, please. The sun's shining...log off!

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Well that's two mentalist posters I can ignore more easily.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi Dr C! Aargh I meant to email you about "Opus 400" - it's a 40-minute "CD single" extension of the original B-side. Brilliant as well, though I initially thought the lyrics were a bit verging-on-BNP dodgy. But no, at the gig Mr Woodward assured me that it was an attack on unthinking patriotism rather than an endorsement. Anyway you ought to get a copy.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Who said anything about woman hating? Females fancy males. It's a basic fact of human existence. Deal with it.

lesbians to thread!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

marcello are you fucking insane? you're calling petridis a racist then you call him a monobrowed hellenic doughball! the thread even has the word hypocrisy in the title. *smacks head against table*

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

when did he stop being phoebe dinsmore

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

btw i just emailed you about something anna, check it when you can. non-ilx business

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely "deal with it" can be the new "don't try it"?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate it when people knock the insane.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

shut up you headcase

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh right that. I'd forgotten about that.

I thought at the time it might be one of your characters (but equally may not have been). If you look at the post I was actually distancing you from a harsher course of action (banning). A troll could have actually meant it, whereas I thought if it had been you it was probably just a misguided attempt at being provocative.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 23 April 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I did not say that ALL females fancied males. I said that females fancied males. This does not deny the fact that females fancy females or that males fancy males.

I do not think that "deal with it" possesses sufficient chetif to pass as a suitably aggrieved meme.

Nevertheless the Petridish is undeniably monobrowed in hirsuteness, Hellenic in origin and a doughball in intestinal circumference. If I had intended that to be a racist comment I would have used accepted unacceptable racist terms in order to convey it.

It merely elevates his inferiority as it is surrounded by such barbed blossoms.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I do not think that "deal with it" possesses sufficient chetif to pass as a suitably aggrieved meme.

I agree with this.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Chetif? The benefits of a Scottish education shining thru once more.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

endo/exo: theoretically yes, in practice it can be the be all and end egotrip. whatev. heh heh like petridis i acknowledge your point but prefer my catchy bitchglib all the same

fin.

― prima fassy (mwah), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there an accepted unacceptable racist slang term for Greek people? I am so out of touch.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Serge Gainsbourg - Je Suis Venu Te Dire Que Je M'En Vais
Einsturzende Neubauten - Halber-Mensch
Pain Killer - Guts Of A Virgin
Peter Sarstedt - On Cool: Thoughts Of A Contemporary Songwriter
John Zorn - Spillane
Nancy Sinatra - Lightning's Girl: Greatest Hits 1965-71
Psychic TV - Dreams Less Sweet
Joe Harriott/John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions Vols 1 & 2
Martin Carthy - Out Of The Cut
Mazzy Star - So Tonight That I Might See
Great summer listening, huh? Yes, I'm in a bad mood. Sometimes you need to be.

-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarli...), April 23rd, 2004 9:35 AM. (later) (link)

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I have similar tastes to Marcello - should I be worried?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

"i hate them greeks! they invented gayness!"

(thats a father ted quote btw, before the headcase marcello gets defensive)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

That's funny - I just recommended that Serge G song on the rude thread.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there an accepted unacceptable racist slang term for Greek people? I am so out of touch.

The Racial Slur Database suggests:

Beef-Curtain
Bubble
Flease
Goat-Banger
Gobbler
Guppie
Highboot
Homocrat
Olive Nigger
Pendo
Tuft
Uni-brow
Yanni

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

May I suggest "Watch it, fuckface"?

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

(hi Marcello - thanks for the info on Opus 400. I think I should hear that)

I would like to frogmarch everyone here to the pub and buy you enough booze to get to the 'I reaaalllly love you reaallly' stage within 30 minutes.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Dr C OTM.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I would like to be frogmarched

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

(also, fassy otm. as usual.)

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

What about "Don't you look at me FUCK!" as per Dennis Hopper in the car in Blue Velvet just before he dons the oxygen mask?

Dr C, your idea sounds invigorating. Are you going to the FAP tonight? If so I might make an appearance.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone get on a train to Exeter now; it's amazing down here. We can all camp out at Turf Locks and watch the mist on the Exe roll out to sea at dawn.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

X-post; Blue Velvet Dennis hopper is OTM, Marcello.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

FAP = Fancy a Punch-up?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the juxtaposition of marcello's last sentence with southall's first.

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Right I'm on my way.....where are you all? You WILL drink and be merry.

Is there a FAP? I cannae make it I don't think. I'm shot away - I've worked 3 18-hour days in a row now.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

now it's dark.

― do it for van gogh, Friday, 23 April 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

but hey now i won't be coming so you don't have to take the train to exeter innit?

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

what?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Is this some kind of urbane Londinium street patois, Jesus Marcello?

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate is OTM upthread by the way, going "ooh, you're just defending him because you fancy him" is smug mysognistic bullshit and childish condescending* to boot, especially as Marcello is PERFECTLY CAPABLE of engaging in adult debate when he wants to.

*As much if not more so than Petridish.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Misogynistic, ahem.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I prefer your slepping.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Also Marcello that is utterly disingenuous - the phrase "tone-deaf lazy black" may be 100% factually accurate when applied to whoever but even bringing race into it is gratuitous and offensive. Why should Carlin get away with it when Big Ron doesn't?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow, I foretold all this once upon a time, over on ILE: Give a Thread Title that's guaranteed to generate over 500 posts...

― M Carty (mj_c), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's confiscate his chalkboard.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's make banana sandwiches.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's Burn Down the Cornfield

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

let's play nice

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's hang faux-PC dimwits at the bus stop outside the Parkhead Forge as an example to travellers of how Gallowgate got its name.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

oh I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's bomb Shoreditch!

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's kick Petridish's dick away!

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's raise a glass of sherry in solidarity with all the "socialists" in Hampstead!

― Super-Kate (kate), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello Carlin is bald!

― Swivel Stick, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, getting there, but not quite yet.

Have you any idea how lonely it is being a rightie in the heart of Glenda Jackson country?

That having been said I am voting for Glenda at the next election 'cos she gives me the hots.

I'm just being honest.

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Thus is the level of political debate in this country heightened tenfold.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Shut up lippy disciple and profit from my teachings.

― Jesus Marcello, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

don't try it jesus.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

lock this man.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Have you any idea how lonely it is being a rightie in the heart of Glenda Jackson country?

about as lonely as being the only sane voice on this messageboard?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Calm down Dave. It's a messageboard.

― Marcello Winner, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Pink Floyd - Apples & Oranges (44 new answers)

Syd Barret in Sanest Man On ILM shockah!
-- Dadaismus (kcoyne3...), April 23rd, 2004.

The Sin of Pride ... complete with spelling mistake

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

has anyone seen my groceries?

― Sid Barnett, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I like this thread.

I like Miller on the private detective of pop.

I like it when the Doc tries to calm people down.

And N. is tremendous. I am not sure whether I am reluctant to say this. Perhaps not.

I have not read the Petridis piece. I think he likes too much music, and too much bad music.

― the blissfox, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Calm down Dave. It's a messageboard.

only an appearance here by michael winner could make this board any worse.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

or maybe frankie bones

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Does Hoxton exist? I've read about it but assumed it was a bit like Narnia.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

... but with worse haircuts

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

you could probably get to it if you walked directly thru my wardrobe, as it happens

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

What, dears?

http://www.atommickbrane.com/gfx/winner_mase.gif

― Your Pal, Michael (starry), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't calm people down PF, I am a failure.

I wouldn't bother with a Petridis article unless it was about The Stockholm Monsters, Chic or The Pinefox.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

!!!

― the ... pinefox, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Doc, it's a pity you can't come out tonight. Like Carlin, of all people, I would be much encouraged to go to the FAP if I thought you were putting in even a brief appearance.

― the bellefox, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

tim russert on meet the press asking colin powell if he'd been dissed by the white house re: the woodward book

I tend to expect that on the news more from meaty fortysomething ex-jocks on ESPN interviewing Kobe or the like, but then again Woodward's not writing about him yet.

As for the rest of the thread, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. (Except for Sarah's visual.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Sarah's visual = teh R0XoR!!!1

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

**Doc, it's a pity you can't come out tonight. Like Carlin, of all people, I would be much encouraged to go to the FAP if I thought you were putting in even a brief appearance.**

Cor. But didn't we end up shouting at each other last time - about reggae or Morrissey covers or something? Anyway, I'd like to come - I will try and fit in a fleeting visit, but I have first to consult 'er indoors about what she's doing. Also we're trying to figure out if our next door neighbour has died - there are some strange comings and goings and crying women in the street. It's all a bit grim. Also I have something to send you - can u email me?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the shouting, which didn't really happen, was good-natured.

All streets in time are visited.

― the blissfox, Friday, 23 April 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes I know.

Ha - the thing I want to send you involves Larkin in a small way.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 23 April 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

not that i've any time for petridis' writing,but everyone who is jumping down his throat over his comments about blogs should be aware that he wasn't exaggerating anything-the will oldham/philosophy thing is actually from a blog,and a good one at that
silverdollarcircle.blogspot.com
scroll down towards the end of the page

― robin (robin), Friday, 23 April 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, but I didn't necessarily mean he was making it up - just that he was presenting extreme examples to underline his point.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 23 April 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

okay, so he reads them. he's still a condescending knobhead.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I am the only person's whose opinion of Petridis has improved since finding out he was on Sinister, so it must be my fault. Incidentally, it's never too late to join Sinister.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree on both counts.

― the bellefox, Friday, 23 April 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

PHILOSOPHY AND ALT. COUNTRY LYRICS CONTINUED.

Palace- ‘its not like an urge, its more like a duty’. Here will oldham seems to be drawing attention to the differences between a Humean and a Kantian view of motivation. Rather than aligning himself with the Humean view that only desires, which assail us as ‘urges’, can motivate us to act intentionally, the bonnie prince shows some support for the Kantian view that the cognitive recognition that an act conforms to duty (rather than simply desiring the performance of the act, or the outcome of the act) can itself provide motivation to act. Whether he agrees with Kant that only acts performed out of a sense of duty are morally virtuous is unclear. He doesn’t come across as someone much concerned with morality.

Anyway... since when did music blogs become exempt from satire? Satire is, almost by definition, a cruel and blunt instrument, and there is certainly plenty to satirise in music bloggage. And this wasn't even particularly cruel or blunt satire!

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Saturday, 24 April 2004 15:19 (twenty-one years ago)

"Gutterlectuals unite, down with middlebrow!"

petridis has my blessing now.

― prima fassy (mwah), Saturday, 24 April 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I must be the only pro-grime blogger who felt oddly complimented by Petridis's descriptions. It made me feel incredibly intellectual!

(although I imagine he was only talking about UK blogs)

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 25 April 2004 07:09 (twenty-one years ago)

To the moon and back, Marcello. You speaka my heart on this... The Times has been one of my happiest and most successful (and certainly longest) creative relationships. There are some good writers at the Guardian/Observer (kitty empire, maddy costa, dave simpson, ian gittins) but the bad outweighs the good, and the clueless outweighs them all.

Don't even get me started on the blinkered middle-class bias. ICK.

― stevie (stevie), Sunday, 25 April 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

This is the daftest thread I've read in a long time on ILM. Whether you liked the article or not, it was about as racist as an apple. It does nothing to disprove the image of posters using for their own petty grudges.

Moaning about certain magazines and writers is even more pathetic when you've seen some of the begging letters from some those writing here. Sour grapes doesn't even begin to cover it.

For the first time ever I think I'm in total agreement with Kate. Too much of ILM is just patronising, condescending and plain nasty.

― mccarthy, Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

The best construction you could put on the review is that it's thoughtlessly condescending. As an uninformed/uninformative piece of journalism, why shouldn't people here discuss it and the politics which lead a major British newspaper to publish this sort of thing?

The accusation of jealousy that comes tottering out every time somebody dares to criticise a professional journalist is laughable, really. Perhaps it would bear more weight if people who used it cared to name names, rather than pout knowingly.

Now Thierry Henry, there's somebody to aspire to be...

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah it's my blog he's talking about in the review with the whole bonnie prince billy thing.
but i think it's pretty obvious that in that piece 'philosophy and alt. country lyrics', i wasn't being at all serious, and it was a just a silly thing written in my lunch hour.
he chooses this one little thing that's been written on a blog [and not even a particularly big one at that], then makes out i was being totally serious in writing it, then generalizes to take the piss out of all pro-grime music blogs.

cock.

― simon h (simian), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Ahh, there's nothing quite like musicblogdom rising up in righteous anger against mainstream journalism.

I don't see the review as racist. It's classist, yeah, takes potshots at those poncey intellectual types with their theory & their love of music that no assumedly 'right-thinking' person would want to listen to regularly (because "sonic experimentation", let's not forget, creates music that you're not supposed to enjoy but only appreciate with a po-faced chin-stroking theory-heavy pose). It sneers a little at those horrible urban lumpen-proletariat kids who have the audacity to speak in slang the middle classes don't understand, can't explain why they listen to it beyond the implicit idea that the music echoes their lives and their language, "crude", "impenetrable" and unappealing to the mainstream. He's identifying them as inner-city teens, though, not as a racial group, and characterising them by their slang doesn't say shit about their ethnic origins or identity, not in London at least. He may call it a "patois", but it's not a language restricted to West Indians - you hear it from second-generation Greeks, children of white British families, anyone.

It's a valid point, that interest in grime is polarised: he expresses it in exaggerated, classist terms, but he's speaking to the middle and not that good a journalist, so it's not all that surprising.

― cis (cis), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Oops: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GOLDFRAPP-OHH-LA-LA-PROMO-CD-SINGLE_W0QQitemZ4761095915QQcategoryZ1057QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Saturday, 3 September 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

"Instead, its fanbase is comically polarised. At one extreme, its sonic experimentation has attracted the kind of people who run music blogs in which records are referred to as "texts" and lengthy essays are posted on such burning issues as the differentiation between Humean and Kantian views of motivation in the lyrics of Bonnie Prince Billy."

I'm actually really bored with this sort of thing. Analysis is good, yes, but sometimes it sucks the joy out of pop.

― Mippy (Mippy), Sunday, 4 September 2005 06:48 (twenty years ago)

Joy is overrated.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 5 September 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

what was the whoops? ebay haf taken it down.

― N_RQ, Monday, 5 September 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

Watermarked promo CDs wot Petridish was trying to flog tut tut tut...

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 5 September 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

Don't get the fuss bout the original quotes, but still. Hate Petridish, but his review has in fact prompted me to return to Treddin on Thin Ice for first time in a long while...

― baboon2004 (baboon2004), Monday, 5 September 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

Hangin's too good for 'im.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Monday, 5 September 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

Yeh, i'd prefer all those he's wronged to rip off his head and shit down his neck on a regular basis. Um...

― baboon2004 (baboon2004), Monday, 5 September 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

i dont get what the big deal was about petridish's comments. nothing he wrote seems that bad at all. this seems like an excuse to simply nitpick.

― oko, Monday, 5 September 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/aug/01/popandrock1

― the pinefox, Sunday, 3 August 2008 13:11 (seventeen years ago)

And more than anything, I think of how when people talk of Power's voice, they speak of its heaviness, how sultry, how treacly it runs.

http://www.hulahoops.com/images/hulahistory/image_1995.jpg

― DJ Mencap, Sunday, 3 August 2008 13:38 (seventeen years ago)