TS: RJD2 "dead ringer" vs. DJ Shadow "the private press"

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― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Deadringer hands down. Private Press got really boring really fast. Deadringer is totally solid. I will also take sides on RJD2 live over DJ Shadow live.

― tk, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

thank you

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Deadringer. Private Press doesn't get rolling until half an hour in. Deadringer is a blast from start to finish.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the "Six Days (Soulwax Remix)" better than anything else on either record.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Private Press; keeps opening up, whereas Deadringer's all right there and then recedes. And Alex OTM.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Avalanches!

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

well duh

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

chicken-cone circuit rivals ANYTHING shadow has ever done. please note: i said RIVALS, not beats.

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

eek, chicken-bone

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

PUAL OAKEYFELD

― TRANCEY (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

The Private Press. Slightly ‘boring’, perhaps, but I think Deadringer is quite shallow while the Press has this huge (suggestion of) depth. I was fascinated by it for the first few months.

― Orange, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

since when has a suggestion of depth been an indicator of actual depth?

i NEVER have the urge to listen to the private press. it's a DOWNER.

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm shocked anyone has the urge to listen to either of these records.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

good news, on Shadow's next one he'll sample nothing but the Care Bears, soccer chants, and Sarah Cracknell will be q guest vocalist on five songs

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

MY MAJOR FORCE BOX-SET!!

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont think i've heard any (non-rap track) shadow in a good four years. i think i am afraid to listen to any of it again for fear of, like so much else from my youth, it sucking retroactively.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:57 (twenty-one years ago)

"Deadringer" is a childish record, so therefore I'd say that it is quite shallow. But that's why it's so much fun. "Press" is a more mature, reflective album. Maturity is not nearly as much fun.
(xposts)

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

there's some good stuff on the private press. but there is some not so good stuff too, whcih is probably why i never listen to it.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I hear Entroducing in stores occassionally and it sounds fine, but it never makes me want to go home and hear the rest of it, which upon reflection is probably not a good sign.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Endtroducing is every bit as good as I thought it was when it first came out, whereever and whenever I hear it.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm with you on THIS one matos

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

since when has a suggestion of depth been an indicator of actual depth?

I put ‘suggestion of’ in parentheses because I think there is a lot of depth, as well as a strong suggestion of it. I don’t know how to describe it exactly, but in places it sounds quite restrained but strongly hints at things, which I suppose is a form of ‘maturity’ I like. I think stuff like ‘Blood on the Motorway’ is just pompous, though.

(I also love (love!) Endtroducing... Still very satisfying.)

― Orange, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I will listen tonight then, Matos, and I will come back with cookies.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Endtroducing really does sound swell even now. It always will. I think that album has the depth.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

the moral of the story is: endtroducing and dead ringer are both outstanding debuts, only to both be followed by yawn enducing sopohomore slumps

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

That's the wrong moral to get from this story.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

By depth I also mean a sort of hinting at space. It really feels quite massive and ‘deep’ (physically, like a deep lake, if you will) at times. People were talking about the space in Geogaddi – to me The Private Press has a similar (again: suggestion of) depth underneath.

― Orange, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I find both artists to be pretty insufferable. Their music is at least listenable, but I never really heard anything all that amazing on either album, and when coupled with their public personas/massive backpacker hype I just get "overrated" syndrome and can't bring myself to care about the actual tunes, everything else around them is so off-putting.

I never feel an urge to listen to DJ Shadow. I always end up turning elsewhere when I want my DJ kicks...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

no, i think geogaddi HAS and does not merely suggest depth. david koresh, satan, leslie nielsen? C'MON!

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, all this thread has done is make me want to listen to geogaddi

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't love The Private Press the way I know others do, and it certainly has its dead spots, but I do think it's really good. Ditto Deadringer--fewer lulls, but the highs aren't as high as on the Shadow record.

I actually played Geogaddi the other week. If you cut it in half you'd have a really good album, but then it wouldn't be Boreds of Canada, maaaaan.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey OTM. The whole "Let the DJ take you a journey" trope is one of the lamest of the 90s tropes.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

blaming artists for the rhetoric that comes up around them: c/d?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

i always viewed shadow as a composer, and i have never once noticed this "trope" applying to him

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh please, he's at least as much to blame for the proliferation of that rhetoric as anyone else is.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

as much as, say, dj keoki? you are CRRRRAZYYY

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp400/p417/p41769hxdrb.jpg

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

NOW THAT GUY WANTS TO TAKE ME ON A JOURNEY

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't ben all that impressed by Dead Ringer though it is due for a re-listen, but Endtroducing is totally classic. When I did a lot of drugs in high school I liked it even more.

What about Preemptive Strike though? I like that even better.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex and Matos were completely right upthread (esp. about Soulwax). RJ's Polyphonic Spree remix is also better than 60% of his album.

Preemptive is pretty good. WDYSLL pt. 3 is really great, High Noon is in Shadow's top 3, as is the LP version of WDYSLL pt. 4. 'Hindsight' is the weak link and even that's decent.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe I'm breaking my ILM ban for this thread.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

RJD2 did an elbow re-mix that disappointed me thoroughly

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Ditto.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

It was then that I knew he was on the wrong side of the shark.

Or that could've been when I realised Deadringer wasn't better than TPP.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I feel bad about saying some of this shit cause the guy is sort of cool - he was really cool to interview 2 years back (accepting my impromptu offer, knowing not enough Manchester students knew who he was at the Shadow gig) and I got a front page nod on the paper thanks to him.

― Barima (Barima), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never really been able to understand what albums like this are supposed to convey, how they're intended to make me feel, etc. They're just... *there*, devoid of personality or a point-of-view. They really DON'T take me on a journey, apart from a journey through their record collections, which isn't very interesting when I don't know what any of the records are - even less so when the DJ's mystique, in part, revolves around maintaining my ignorance. If I want head-bobbing beats, there's no shortage of great hip-hop I can listen to. If I want abstract, sonic experiments and/or digital editing I can turn to any number of turntablists, laptop rockers, collage artists, ad infinitum.

So the main goal of these kinds of records seems to be to wow me with the DJs ability to manipulate obscure samples. That doesn't look very exciting on paper. And - surprise surprise - it doesn't come out sounding very exciting on record. These records sound like they were made with the singular purpose of filling a specific void (the instrumental hip hop record), regardless of whether or not filling that void sounds interesting or moves the human heart or mind. I just get bored by these records. They don't make me want to dance, and they don't give me much to think about, so what am I supposed to do with them? At least with folks like the Scratch Picklz you get a lot of humor and cartoonish storylines.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

can this thread be renamed to:

TS: RJD2 "dead ringer" vs. DJ Shadow "the private press" vs. eating a box of teddy grams while watching Sex in the City DVD #4

― ddb, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I choose suicide by choking on teddy grams with the TV off.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

So the main goal of these kinds of records seems to be to wow me with the DJs ability to manipulate obscure samples.

I think they're just supposed to sound good.

― reductionist (Oops), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

"I think they're just supposed to sound good. "

define "sound good"

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Private Press is TEH SUCK
Dead Ringer is what's really THUG

― ddb, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

define "sound good"

"Mashin' on the Motorway"

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

you know, like you hear it, and you say "gee I like this music that's playing. it sounds good".

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

hmm. in that case apart from "Organ Donor" both of these albums do not sound good, cuz my reaction to them is more like my reaction to the humming of fluorescent lights (ie, none).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

hmm. in that case apart from "Organ Donor" both of these albums do not sound good, cuz my reaction to them is more akin to my reaction to the humming of fluorescent lights (ie, none).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Fer me Endtroducing > Since We Last... > DeadRinger > Private Press

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 23:45 (twenty-one years ago)

More like Endtroducing > Since We Last Spoke > Private Press > Dead Ringer > whatever shit you think is cooler than RJD2 and DJ Shadow

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Thursday, 20 May 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Private Press is obv the best of the two for its goth moments alone ("You Can't Go Home Again", the melodramatic one just before it, the jungle one earlier on). The rest I could take or leave. Deadringer was a shrug record for me, but then I didn't really expect to be enthused so I may not have given it a chance (it's not the sought of record I would have paid money for in order to check out).

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 20 May 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Nate, go save the "Since We Last Spoke" thread thnx

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I have an ace up my sleeve, tee hee

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Thursday, 20 May 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

OK so I just read what Shakey wrote and I think he's absolutely crazy.

What's the diff. between these guys and laptop artists exactly? They're not showing off their record collections, they're mixing chopping panning filtering and editing the songs to create new ones...

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoever came up with the Shadow As Goth trope (Raggett?) I salute you - as instrumental hip-hop The Private Press sucketh, as this huge portentuous atmospheric thing it rules.

Dead Ringer starts off fantastically but loses the plot a bit in the second half, I think. And the tracks with actual rapping on them are pretty godawful. I haven't wanted to listen to either record in over a year.

Since I Left You >>>>>>>>> both albums.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 20 May 2004 10:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Jeez aside from the Jakki track, the other two tracks w/ rapping on them are pretty damn great. And I'd agree that DeadRinger slows down a bit at the end, although "2 More Dead" and that Bonus track kill that...

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't thionk anyone can say "dj shadow sucks" and actually mean it. deadringer is a better album than the private press. i know this. it's a concrete fact.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i know this. it's a concrete fact.

All my posts will now end this way.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i agree, but Endtroducing > everything ever still

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

ugh its 1997 all over again

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

"rap is wack, but josh davis will save us!"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

he is good at what he does. i am right. thank you

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah seriously strongo i don't think anyone here is saying that he is 'saving' rap or that it needs saving.

just that endtroducing is a damn good record. and it is.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

stelfox, i heart you

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

haha no i was just cringing at the thought of all that '97 press

shadow couldn't "save" a kitten up a tree these days, since he's no longer hip.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a "concrete fact" perpetuated by a bunch of student stoners who believed Deadringer was far better as a "sequel" to Endtroducing than TPP.

Oh, and Flesh Eating Disco Zombies vs The Bionic Hookers From Mars (London Funk Allstars) > Since I Left You/Major Force: The Original Artform > Endtroducing > Classic Tales (The Runaways) > The Private Press > Deadringer > the new one (I'm guessing).

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

what does rattling off a list of other you love have ANYTHING to do with this discussion

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

other albums.

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

he needs maybe 5 more years, so, like this last pete rock album that just came out, journos can begin begging people to take notice again as an "antidote" to whatever's in the charts at the moment

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I please state for the record that although DeadRinger is also instrumental hip-hop it sounds nothing like Shadow? (outside of "chicken bone circuit")

he needs maybe 5 more years, so, like this last pete rock album that just came out, journos can begin begging people to take notice again as an "antidote" to whatever's in the charts at the moment

hahaha I hate that.
(seriously though, the new Pete Rock rekkid is really quite good. Much better than SS1)

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

dj shadow is getting real FAT nowadays too, isn't he?

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:34 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW, I'm with Strongo re: cringing. And otm about 'antidote', it's partly why a lot of my friends got into Shadow and then they became wannabe connoisseurs. Ew.

If the Dust Brothers had done Paul's Boutique without the Beasties as planned, the world of instrumental hip hop might have been a bit different.

cutty, less anal retention.

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:34 (twenty-one years ago)

cutty, less anal retention.

barima, less of your personal BETTER THAN stash

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

i listen to company flow's instrumental hip-hop album a lot more than the private press. but i never really listened to the private press that much. i would go back to it from time to time thinking i would like it better, would dig the first 3 or 4 songs and then start staring at the ceiling. then i'd go looking for my cash money mix l.p.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

i've never put davis forward as a savior of hip-hop (he aint). i'm not big on the true-school aesthetic. most of it is crap. some of it is good. shadow has done important things. may yet do them again. deadringer IS a better album than the private press because the music is better, not for any other reason barima. i am 30 not a student and i don't go near the herb anymore. i am also right.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

deadringer = head nodder
private press = chin stroker (chin with soul patch)

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

ok shush now.

― prima fassy (mwah), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

that's mmade me feel quite queasy

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

On a rainy day:

the private press >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deadringer

On a sunny day:

deadringer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the private press

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Cutty, you're not actually going to make me go down the "don't like it, don't read it" road with you?

Others did it, I felt like joining in. Don't go pretending I'm trying to create a thread drift by my lonesome - and for that matter, don't throw stones in a glass house by then moaning about a relatively minor part of my 2nd or 3rd post on the thread and just to get my back up than actually contribute something yourself. Again, be a lot less anal.

(Wow, it's like I never left my comic messageboard days behind)

Dave, you make me laugh. I know you're not a student anyway, and I appreciate the pose. But I was referring to personal experience there (long memories of In/Flux and the Mo'Wax message boards to thread).

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

To these ears...

Shadow sounds digital, tight, like wine gums.

RJD2 sounds like crusty old spare electronic parts, very loose, like burgers.

I wuv RJD2 waaay more tho, I like his ears more than Shadow's.

― TomB (TomB), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

BURGERS!

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Tom makes a good case, but to me it works best when you think of how much of the introspection Shadow left off this time. Also, I think it has something to do with the gear upgrade b/w Endtro and TPP (slightly cleaner sound may play a part in why I prefer TPP to DR).

Also, there is a looseness to tracks like 'Fixed Income', 'You Can't Go Home Again' and the two 'On The Motorway's.

Oh yeah, palpable feeling of joy/fun/good times from TPP to balance out the darker moments. 'Let The Good Times Roll' wastes TPP's uptempo moments, but it's still too lonely.

Really, it's a question of balance. RJ has some better moments ('The Horror', the intro of '2 More Dead', 'June' and esp. 'Ghostwriter' - how I love thee), but I find the Shadow far more consistent and less crap throughout.

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(Gah, 'June'? I meant 'Silver Fox'!)

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

No love for "Walkie Talkie"?

I've never heard RJD2 - I'm starting to think I should check him out - but I just want to chime in that I really love The Private Press from start to finish and have since I first heard it. I definitely don't think the point is to dazzle me with DJ technique. Endtroducing has seemed good the times I've listened to it, esp "Stem/Long Stem/Transmission" and "Organ Donor", but so far it's never become as much a part of my regular listening.

Mind you, I also love fluorescent lights.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 20 May 2004 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

(Though to be honest, fluorescent lights make me think more of Ryoji Ikeda or Oren Ambarchi or Immersion or maybe La Monte Young drone pieces or "Treefingers".)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 20 May 2004 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, "Blood On the Motorway" is playing now and it does have a bit of that glow about it . . .

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 20 May 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, "You Can't Go Home Again". I really think this is a phenomenal-sounding album.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 20 May 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"The Horror" certainly lives up to its name. I shreek and turn it off.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 20 May 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I have nothing to add to what I said on this thread ...other than I hope to always be Tim's hero ;-)

― Jeff W (zebedee), Thursday, 20 May 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

"You Cant Go Home Again is nice but perhaps too sparse"

!!!

-- Tim Finney
---------------------------------------------------------------

A !!! cover would probably sound almost the same!

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 20 May 2004 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

i just wanted to put something about shadow-esque stuff always having a better commonground with techno than hip hop and that the hip hop element is similar in aspect to jungle than any rap. since there seems to be some kind off fall down when people consider it hip hop. and no one uses the term trip-hop no more. im not sure if that makes any sense but i cant be bothered to check.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Um...Endtroducing ... is techno how?

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

erm what's with all the hate for the MCs on DeadRinger? I agree it sorta messes w/ the flow of the album on Jakki's track, but Blueprint is great and "June" is a gem, and as a single it was what built up all the hype for DeadRinger.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

no but the kind of music is closer to electronic music, as in techno than hip-hop. dont twist it with all the genre shit, just hear it as music, i was refering to issues on the hip-hop status of shadows work. what he does is taken from an element of hip hop just as hip hop is an element of his music.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

and the mcs ruin whats left of the flow from deadringer, the tracklisting is one of the worst things about the album, personally i always skip the mc tracks partly cause they dont fit too well and partly cause some of its just not my style.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

How is it closer to techno? He uses samples and breakbeats and the bpm is around the speed of yr average hip-hop track. He's a part of a hip-hop crew, his influences are primarily hip-hop (New York production largely, Bomb Squad, probably the early 90s shit like Large Pro too), and alla these are characteristics of hip-hop

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Endtroducing isn't really dance music.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

im using techno as a general electric term, some people so tight with your genre names, your probably right i just use the terms as a quick way round of description not as definition, hip hop started of as dance music (ish) or party music, not always the case now there are many fragments, id say endtroducing would fall to a genreless catagory if you had to push it. just as dance music, beats and baselines fragment into a other forms of listening that dosnt involve dancing, so do you still call it dance.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

What makes it NOT hip-hop? It has everything I've ever associated w/hip-hop minus the rapping.

I feel uncomfortable when people tell me its not hip-hop but that its "electronica" or "grenreless" cuz it always seems to me like they're trying to define hip-hop as something a lot less comprehensive than it really is.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

And in the process distance artists they respect from a genre they don't.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

A process that works both ways tho, i.e. as often as not Hip Hop gatekeepers want to expel Shadow too.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

i never said it wasnt hip hop, and i consider it hip hop, and tell me exactly what you think hip hop REALLY is, maybe i dont appreciatte people telling me i dont know what hip hop really is not some bullshit wide interpretation or something that excludes, if you must hip hop is a fucking lifestyle. are you talking lifestyle or music, i feel maybe what ive said was to easily mis-interpreted. what kind of people listen to shadow stuff, primarily heads? or is his fan base more generaluised across genres?

its mostly my fault last year i went through a stage of calling certain bands that dont use technology techno, i want go into it but i had reasons, but that was probably more to do with my state of mind i was just continuing something someone earlier said about shadow and hip hop.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:10 (twenty-one years ago)

btw i may be from london, not ny but i grew up black and asian, went to a black and asian school ( until i was 15) and for most of my life socialised among minorities, bitch i am a minority. im not saying its in anyway a race issue but trying to point out that what hip hop means to me as i was around black people and what hip hop means to black people is diferent by definition, did the hip hop heads in my school give a shit about shadow, for the mostpart, hell no. im not saying i know more because of this im just saying this has been my experience and part reasoning for what ive said also im going by sound not technique.

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

haha what the fuck?

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

dont worry, pretend it never happened

― cedric hendrix, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

the vast majority of people I know that rate Shadow/RJD2, I would not call them hardcore hip-hop fans. I guess the music is hip-hop, in the literal sense that its based around turntables, samples, and funk beats.

Still boring though.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

techno:hip-hop::boards of canada:shadow

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Still boring though.

Shakey outta curiosity where are you from?

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I grew up in the fabled Inland Empire of Southern California (Upland reprazent wut wut!). Ran away to No Cal at the first opportunity, been living in SF since '96.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Boring music is grebt.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm for some reason I was gonna guess you were all euro'd out cuz this whole "I don't get the sampling" thing sounded like some euro dance dude who doesn't really listen to hip-hop but xcuse me.

(PS: I'm just getting into dance, and I like what I've heard. Please don't be mad at me euro dance heads.)

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

dood I used to see the Scratch Picklz and DJ Fuze man the boards at Club Deco (RIP) when I first moved here.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 20 May 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

In that case I am v. confused by yr whole "I don't get RJD2 and Shadow" thing. They're just reconstructing new songs from old.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i am still the only person who has been absolutely and indisputably correct on this thread

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

what did you say again, Dave, I forget?

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't really remember. it was good, though.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I keep coming back to this thread, but not much has happened. some people like this, some people like that. No real compelling arguments. It's a taste thing. not a skill thing or a cred thing. maybe RJ and Shadow are evenly matched. I need more RJ in my life. I love the instrumental thing. I only have him on comps and such. I like everything i've heard. i called him shadow jr. once. that was probably mean. i will go buy all his records to make up for it. So there is rapping on dead ringer? how much?

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure it was, Dave.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

not much rapping but it is there. it's not that great. i like rj for his instrumentals and i think they work best alone.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

that dude who left coflow, the dj., mr.len, that one album he put out with all the rappers on it? it sucked really bad. but that coflo instro album is genius or something.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

what am i saying? i don't "think" anything. since i am, as of today, only dealing with matters of cast-iron truth, it's safe to say i "know" these things. so i'll give this to you, undie rappers = generally not very good (buck65 is the exception that proves this empirical, scientifically extrapolated rule). undie producers = generally very good.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

el-p would be good if he just put a sock in it

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:49 (twenty-one years ago)

el-p WAS kind enough to put out an instrumental version of his album though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

that was good. the vocal one annoyed the nuts off me. he should be gagged.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, okay, well maybe I should make it clear that I don't have any issues with sampling as an art from and that there are a lot of sample-centric producers who I love and respect - the RZA, Prince Paul, Ice Cube/DJ Pooh/Boogie Men, the Bomb Squad, Erick Sermon, Dre, the Dust Bros, Biz Markie, the Scratch Picklz, ad infinitum. Most of those guys don't make instrumental records, so maybe part of what impresses me about them is how deftly they weave their backing tracks together to complement the rapping, it keeps their records focused and provides context. And a lot of times their re-contextualizing samples, making the familiar unfamiliar - juxtaposition is key. Take something your audience will recognize (Slick Rick! Prince! The Vandellas! Kraftwerk!) and do something completely incongruous with it. On top of that, all those producers have a definite ASS-MOVING objective, so they go heavy on the funk. Even when things are getting paranoid and creaky (RZA) or hysterical (Bomb Squad) or humorous (Paul, Dust Bros) they know how to rock breaks and keep the hands clappin and the heads bobbin. It's not about showing off how many obscure records you have, or what nifty new technological plug-in you scored, or re-creating the sound and feel of old records note for note. Shadow and RJD2 both seem to have this real dour, humorless, academic approach to sampling - like its the holiest of holies and they are on a sacred musical mission to wow you with their ability to mix obscure 45s together and they're gonna get abstract and take it to a whole new level blah blah blah. That whole monologue at the beginning of "Endtroducing" is such a lame, self-aggrandizing move - like he's begging for authentication. I'm waaaaaaaay past being infatuated by the "novelty" of sampling, and I'm way past caring about the fact that Shadow took old 45s (no way!) and mixed them together to make a new song (holy cow!) and then pass it off like that's a revolutionary approach. That isn't new - DJs have been doing that shit for 20 years, it's just that Shadow didn't bother to put a rapper on top of it, and forgot to make any records with actual hooks that you can dance to. RJD2 is a little different, but mostly what I hear from him is a lot of meticulous sampling done in an effort to construct what basically sounds like old soul, Barry White, blaxploitation sdtks etc. It's like he gets off on trying to trick your ears into thinking that something that was made with samples is really just some old record you've never heard before. That's it? What's so great about that? If I want Barry White, I'll listen to actual Barry White records. I just don't get it, what's the point... I'd rather hear Q-Bert scratch old Star Trek records over some crackly Peanut Butter Wolf beats, at least that shit is funnier.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 20 May 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Once again, I stop a thread DEAD IN ITS TRACKS!

I am MASTER OF THE INTERNET!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 20 May 2004 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i think people just haven't finished reading your post yet

― cutty (mcutt), Thursday, 20 May 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

oi oi Scott/Stelfox, there is another El-P instro record making the rounds (well, mostly instro; beware the Axl-yawp tune called "Oxycotin") called Collecting the Kid. You need to listen the fuck outta "Ghost Final".

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 21 May 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoever came up with the Shadow As Goth trope (Raggett?) I salute you

Franks. I did indeed say something of the sort a few years back; whether I was alone or the first is another question, but Tim picked up on my take and pondered it further. And yeah, he's a total fucking goth. I can't hear Entroducing without that filter.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 21 May 2004 04:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get think about the technical prowess or whatever of people like Shadow or RJD2. Maybe they are trying to wow me with their creative genius, I wouldn't know.
Do you like any music that isn't totally extroverted? Perhaps the aim of this music is not to "rock breaks and keep the hands clappin and the heads bobbin." It doesn't need to in order to be enjoyed.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 21 May 2004 05:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave, that's patently ridiculous...

good "undie" (stupidest term ever, i mean really) rappers:

Vast Aire, MF Doom, Blueprint, El-P (yes fa god sake the man is a good MC!) Aesop, Mr Lif, Aceyalone, Murs, etc etc etc

― djdee2005, Friday, 21 May 2004 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, 2/3 of the tracks w/ rappers on DeadRinger are good (Final Frontier and Rain) although Final Frontier doesn't work as well in the context of the album. (Hating on "Rain" though - inexcusable. And I don't even normally like Copywrite...!)

― djdee2005, Friday, 21 May 2004 06:47 (twenty-one years ago)

private press

― chaki_burger (chaki), Friday, 21 May 2004 06:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave, that's patently ridiculous...

my point is not up for debate. please don't argue with me. i am right.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 21 May 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey, people dance to the originals and various remixes of 'Organ Donor', 'The Number Song', 'Mashin' On The Motorway', 'WDYSLL Pt. 3', 'Right Thing/GDMFSOB', 'You Can't Go Home Again', 'Drums of Death', 'Six Days', 'Walkie Talkie', 'Napalm Brain/Scatter Brain', 'Giving Up The Ghost', 'Celestial Annihilation' and I'm sure some rock out to 'Nursery Rhyme'.

~~I am right~~ ~~This is fact~~ So there ya go.

Also, Shadow's *critics* hailed his approach as 'revolutionary' or whatever but mainly because he wasn't making *"conventional-sounding" hip hop* on Endtroducing. He didn't break the mould or anything musically on that record much either, but a hip hop kid sounding like he did (a goth, right?) lead to those "Jimmy Page of the sampler!"-type comments in his press.

The dude just followed his muse, and yes, he did want to be seen as 'the outsider', but I don't recall him ever claiming he was inventing a new way for others to follow. Hell, sometimes the Mo'Wax posse and I struggle to name 5 peeps who directly imitate him.

― Barima (Barima), Friday, 21 May 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey is jess and I claim my $5.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 21 May 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

TS: DJ Shadow vs Andre 3000

― Barima (Barima), Friday, 21 May 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

andre gets laid more for sure.

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 21 May 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, only cause Josh is married!

― Barima (Barima), Friday, 21 May 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

hmm, it's pretty rare that I agree with Jess...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 21 May 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I know! That's why it's funny! Plus I have met the both of you.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 21 May 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

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