what bands did 60s rockers used to listen to?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

This sounds like a dumb question but classic Rock to me started in the 70s with Black Sabbath et al. I know that the Mods listened to the Who, the Small Faces, the Kinks etc - but the Rockers? I think I could name some American bands at a stretch (War? Hendrix?) but I really couldn't name a British rock band pre-1970s.

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:42 (twenty years ago)

didn't they all listen to american blues?

― derrick (derrick), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:45 (twenty years ago)

I really couldn't name a British rock band pre-1970s

Surely you mean pre-1960s.

― o. nate (onate), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:47 (twenty years ago)

like who?

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:47 (twenty years ago)

Well, the Stones took their name from a Muddy Waters song.

― o. nate (onate), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:48 (twenty years ago)

Also, apparently there was something called skiffle. Though I couldn't name a band in that style.

― o. nate (onate), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:48 (twenty years ago)

the rockers listened to american rock from the 50s right? Gene Vincent etc? At least that's what the movie Quadrophenia has taught us...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:51 (twenty years ago)

Also, there is this famous quote:

"If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry" - John Lennon

So apparently they were listening to him.

― o. nate (onate), Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:51 (twenty years ago)

yeah,i was gonna say gene vincent too, but he's not british, is he? (unless he is.)...johnny and the pirates, maybe? or, um, the downliner's sect???

― chuck, Sunday, 8 August 2004 21:53 (twenty years ago)

but but - didn't they listen to any new music? imagine if 50% of young people today went round listening exclusively to mid 90s post grunge... oh wait, hang on.

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:06 (twenty years ago)

Some of the stuff 60s rock fans were listening to, not going too far into psychedelia and British biased

50s rock - Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Jery Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly
Ray Charles
Yardbirds
Rolling Stones
the Shadows
the Animals
the Beatles
John Mayall Band
Cream
Beach Boys
Byrds
Jimi Hendrix Experience
the Kinks
James Brown
Mose Allison
Captain Beefheart
John Coltrane
Miles Davis
Bob Dylan
Fleetwood Mac
Traffic
the Band
Otis redding
Charles Mingus
Aretha Franklin
Them
Credence Clearwater Revival
Frank Zappa
Crosby Stills and Nash
Blues - Robert Johnson, Buddy Guy, Junior Parker, Albert King, Howlin' Wolf, Magic Sam, John Lee Hooker, BB King etc. etc.
Motown
Stax

There's probably quite a bit I've forgotten, and I haven't included folk/folk-rock, SanFran bands and the Velvet Underground

Actually Bavid Bowie's "Pin Ups" isn't a bad indication of the things they were listening to

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:06 (twenty years ago)

The Who aswell d'oh

I fully expect to get ripped apart for misunderstanding the question

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago)

right - so really there was no "rocker" genre - it was mostly aesthetic then? i guess "mod music" was fairly loose too because that included ska.

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:10 (twenty years ago)

i always understood the Kinks and the Who to be very much a part of the mod scene, which was hated by the rockers, no?

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:12 (twenty years ago)

I personally view the Mod/rocker thing as a bit of a red herring yeah, though I'm sure others will want to disagree

My opinion is that that stuff was all about staged encounters on seaside resorts not any kind of musical divide

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:13 (twenty years ago)

fair dos.

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:14 (twenty years ago)

I'm not trying to deny the existence of a mod scene though, before anyone gets worried.
That was very strong in 1962-65

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:15 (twenty years ago)

John Lennon, the ultimate "rocker" (despite his haircut) loved so called mod staples like Motown and James Brown. He wasn't as keen on
blues though, and I guess one could posit another class of fan who listened almost exclusively to blues - particularly of the 50s Chicago variety - and loved these the Stones, Yardbirds, Clapton etc.

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:31 (twenty years ago)

did all the rockers become guitar teachers then? ;-)

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:38 (twenty years ago)

Yes. And taxi drivers.

― Bumfluff, Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:40 (twenty years ago)

I love the way those guys pronounce the word "Blues". It's slightly extended and "groovy" sounding like "Blooowooos" or something.

― dog latin (dog latin), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:54 (twenty years ago)

Rockers were into quite a bit of rockabilly stuff too. Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, etc...

― John Bullabaugh (John Bullabaugh), Sunday, 8 August 2004 22:58 (twenty years ago)

One thing I know, they hated all albums, listened exclusively to singles. Rockers were the original Anti-Rockists!

― Curt (cgould), Sunday, 8 August 2004 23:04 (twenty years ago)

I think '70s rock would have been 100% better if they'd all listened to bebop instead of blues

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 8 August 2004 23:05 (twenty years ago)

Rockers were the original Anti-Rockists!

Post of the year.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Sunday, 8 August 2004 23:06 (twenty years ago)

Course there was the older generation of rockers, many who did hate all the new music of the sixties and got terribly excited whenever Vincent or Lee Lewis toured the Uk. They didn't have many new bands to like until Credence Clearwater Revival showed up. "Finally, something we can understand".

― Bumfluff, Monday, 9 August 2004 03:31 (twenty years ago)

Downliners Sect had mod hair.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 9 August 2004 03:35 (twenty years ago)

I don't quite get the question. The Stones listened to what was going on around them, and not just to Chicago, Chess blues. They covered Don Covay and guys like that, Marvin Gaye. The Beatles listened to what was around them too. When those bluesniks in England started obsessing over blues--mainly it was blues guitar--was when it all went south, anyway. Cream was all right at making pop singles, boring when they played "blues," which they didn't really understand (they were just into guitar-playing, not blues itself, in my opinion).

There really were Mods and Rockers, too. The ultimate Mod band wasn't the Who, it was the Small Faces. The Creation, the Easybeats, and the Kinks were obviously more Mod than Rocker. Rockers believed rock and roll stopped when Eddie Cochran was killed in 1960--they were kind of the roots-rockers of their era. They did all get drunk and pilled up and fight at resorts, which was obviously a good thing for them to have done. Also a lot of that era was based on a healthy skepticism about jazz, specifically all that shitty "trad" stuff which was British people in bowties trying to recreate Dixieland, as well as skepticism about the whole post-bop scene. Altho in "Absolute Beginners" all that seemed to somewhat coexist.

Skiffle was British people doing jug-band music and ropey old American folk songs. Lonnie Donegan, who was one of the first signs of life in the British rock and roll scene. I mean why listen to that when you can hear Gus Cannon?

In America I think it was somewhat different, just because the musicians were so much closer to their sources. You had rednecks like Dan Penn all into Bobby Bland and soul music, and obviously lots of white soul bands doing "Knock on Wood" for sorority parties and so forth. And you had those guitar-lick worshippers playing blues just like in England, except that I'd say Mike Bloomfield and others tended to get the ethos of blues a bit better getting knives pulled on them in Chicago than someone who learned at the knee of Alexis Korner.

I hesitate to say it was a more fertile scene but it certainly seems less pretentious in every way than today, and it was probably more truly diverse. I just think that it's always a bad thing when musicians start wearing their influences on their sleeves instead of just doing what they feel like doing, and in that regard there's not a whole lot of difference between now and then...

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 9 August 2004 18:19 (twenty years ago)

I think '70s rock would have been 100% better if they'd all listened to bebop instead of blues

So they all coulda been like Steely Dan?

The thing is, the '70s were all about mourning the fucking Beatles, but you also had an awareness of what jazz had done over the last forty years. Slightly more harmonic sophistication by then. It came from bebop but mainly from that so-called modal jazz scene of the '50s. It took rap music and various other things to get people away from the misconceived notion that the Beatles were the be-all of previous music. Because it was, you know, James Brown all along...

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 9 August 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

eddie hurt = the most consistently OTM person on ILx

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 9 August 2004 18:43 (twenty years ago)

theres a cool page in the book to the byrds' box set that has info about all the byrds from an early press kit or something, and lists stuff like where born and age and stuff, and also what their favorite bands are - definitely kinks and zombies and beatles were there - and from what has been written about the competition between brian wilson and paul mccartney, it seems like a lot of 60's (pop-)rockers were listening to their own contemporaries.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 9 August 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago)

the kinks were fond of lots of broadway and showtunes and tin pan alley pop as well as blues, R&B, soul, after wards.

― splooge (thesplooge), Monday, 9 August 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

still not 100% convinced by the answers on this thread. I still find it hard to believe there was no quintessential counterpart to the Rocker ideology as the Faces/Kinks etc.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 25 September 2006 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

Buddy Holly, people.

― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Monday, 25 September 2006 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

based on everything i've read, skiffle was a huge deal. probably way underestimated cuz no one in america ever gave a shit...i remember seeing a video of lil' jimmy page at like 10 being on the bbc in a cute little skiffle band.

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:04 (eighteen years ago)

i still don't quite get the premise of the question, but how/where might cliff richard fit into all this?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:27 (eighteen years ago)

is this thread for real?

― any cop (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

...It was all just a long, boring dream...

― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

but but - didn't they listen to any new music?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon's_jukebox

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/lennon/

But yeah, the de facto answer still is Chuck Berry. He was one of the main roots of their generation.

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:48 (eighteen years ago)

Skiffle for sure. The Beatles started as a Skiffle band. Lonnie Donegan influenced a lot of the early skiffle bands. I'm not too clear on my Brit rock history, but somewhere around 1959-1961 skiffle gave way to the beat boom. Cliff Richard was important, but as something to react against. Lennon and the other Beatles were quite contemptuous of Cliff and the Shadows.

― Ice Cream Electric (Ice Cream Electric), Monday, 25 September 2006 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

What I've always been baffled about with this skiffle thing is how did it differ from pop-folk revival in the US? For example, Rock Island Line was entered into the folk revivalists canon by the Lomax's.

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

i always thought that skiffle was supposed to be rockabilly for england or something...like lonnie donagan=a more folky buddy holly. more beat driven than the folk stuff like kingston trio, etc.

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

Donagan's big hit in 1956 was Rock Island Line, which as stated, was a Lomax documented/salvaged thing. That whole Kingston Trio thing happened a couple years later which was part of the evolution of Folk Revival. Before that was the Weavers poppy stuff, and before that was all that Pete Seeger/Leadbelley/Almanac Singers stuff, which comes right out of the tradition of Carl Sandburg and the Lomax's.

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

If I understand it correctly, Cliff Richard was the UK diving right into the Elvis/Rockabilly fire, unlike skiffle.

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:23 (eighteen years ago)

As usual wikipedia has the details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skiffle

In the UK, Skiffle is to 1957 as Punk is to '77 and Acid House is to '89.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

TS: Acid House abroad 89 vs Acid House in Chicago 87

(thanks for the link)

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

eddie hurt is totally confused upthread vis-a-vis the influence of blues on rock n' roll. one cannot minimize the importance of blues; chuck berry was uptempo blues. skiffle artists like lonnie donegan recorded many reverent covers of american blues and folk. and don't forget bill monroe, he was a big influence on rock, especially by melding harmonized ear-candy choruses with extended soloing and improvisation.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

Dude, you are so in over your head right now...

― PappaWheelie says, ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

...but at least he brought up country music. [e.g. Bill Monroe ear candy -> Louvins -> Everlys -> Beatles, et al.] It may be irrelevant to a mods/rockers context, but in terms of Edd's post and general "roots" discussion, that may have been left out. And I'd describe Chuck Berry as being an "uptempo country blues" guitarist, of sorts.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

but but - didn't they listen to any new music? imagine if 50% of young people today went round listening exclusively to mid 90s post grunge...

They don't. They listen to "classic" hard rock from the 70s or 80s: Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Iron Maiden etc.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 25 September 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

And don't forget Little Richard!! One reason Lennon go Paul in the Quarrymen was he could do the Little Richard scream.

― Ice Cream Electric (Ice Cream Electric), Monday, 25 September 2006 21:39 (eighteen years ago)

Well if you were a Rocker in about 1965, Rock would have only been aroudn for about 10 years, electric guitar only around for a couple years prior. Most Rock acts up until the Beatles were a frontman and a backing band. Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Billy Haley and the Comets, Elvis, Gene Vincent, etc. The backing bands were often a revolving door of profesional musicians. The band comradarie of the Beatles or other bands whose members had known each other since their teens was often missing.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

Boogie Woogie is the root of Rock. Specifically, Pinetop Smith in 1928. Pinetop got Cow Cow Davenport signed that same year, sparking a trend.

Boogie Woogie was embraced by the burgeoning Western Swing scene around 1932 with the Fort Worth Doughboys. Bill Monroe's influence may've been over individual artists...but very specifically, it was Bob Wills and Milton Brown who broadend Country into Western Swing.

Before that, it was mostly in the lineage of the Bristol Session, Carter Family, and Jimmie Rodgers on one hand, and the novelty of Hawaaiin Cowboys on the other (which I love to no end). Bob Wills and Milton Brown took all of that, and combined it with Boogie Woogie with the specific intentions on making dance music for barn dances, similar to Black juke joints.

While Western Swing was still thinking about Boogie Woogie, Boogie Woogie itself had already morphed into Jump Blues around 1936 with groups like Harlem Hamfats and Louis Jordan (which, despite the "rock comes from Blues" myth, Jump Blues really isn't so much Blues as much as it is taboo juke/dance music, psuedo swing with blues chord progressions -- but much of mainstream Swing at the time also had Blues chord progressions). This is all very different than Robert Johnson and such.

But the dance between Hillbilly and R&B continued on (well before Rockabilly). Western Swing morphed into Hillbilly Boogie during the R&B thing, probably around the time Hank Penny was coming into his own in the early 40's.

R&B began making mock gospel records with juke themes around 1945 with songs like "Who Threw the Whiskey in the Well".

The "rock" element in this lineage was basically in 1949 when a whole host of R&B artists started to syncopate the beat in a rocking style.

This dance between Metro Black and Urban Hillbilly finally leaked over to radio that year in Memphis when WDIA's all black station influenced the white Dewey Phillips to do something similar at WHBQ. That influenced WLAC in Nashville to follow suit, but rather than keeping it local, they broadcasted to the entire East Coast with the 500,000 watt transmitter. This spread R&B/Jump Blues to White audiences everywhere within range, including Alan Freed's little psuedo-Jazz show in Akron Ohio. Freed got popular enough with his show to get a job in Cleveland, where he met Leo Mintz. Mintz convinced Freed to switch format to R&B as a way to advertise Mint's store, Record Rendezvous.

Moondog Coronation Ball - 1952

Elvis & Bill Haley record souped up Hillbilly Boogie (creating the template for Rockabilly) - 1954

Blackboard Jungle - 1955

Elvis signed to RCA - 1956

Dick Clark watered it down with white teen Idols - roughly 1957

R&B (and its Doo-wop offshoot) morphs into Soul and becomes embraced into mainstream Rock via Jackie Wilson & Sam Cooke with "Lonely Teardrops" and "You Send Me" in 1957 after taking cues from Ray Charles and James Brown.

Payola Scandel shuts down freeform radio jocks - 1959

1959 - Motown & Stax formed. Motown has a pop hit right away with Barrett Strong's Money, followed by The Miracles' "Shop Around" in 1960.

ABC Records and RCA Records decide to start singing Soul groups (Ray Charles, Sam Cooke, et al) and crossing them over to pop charts in 1960.

Again, White America followed suit with hit factories sprouting up and taking their teen idols and having them work off of a watered down Soul template (e.g. Little Eva's "The Loco-motion", The Exciters' "Tell Him", Leslie Gore, Little Peggy March, etc.) This is most likely what weeded out the country influence in contemporary pop.

It took The Kingsmen's "Louie Louie" in 1963 to put this 60's garage sound on the map to create this lineage of the 60's rock canon.

The "we were inspired by American Blues and some country or whatever" thing has been overstated as some kind of blurry fact by people like Wagamuffin forever when all the facts are out there...

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

http://0li.tripod.com/06/montgomery_burns_excellent.jpg

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:39 (eighteen years ago)

[dang i been tripodded]

http://www.cod.edu/dept/athletic/teams/soccer/alumni/_notes/burns.jpg

"Excellent!"

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:45 (eighteen years ago)

>This is most likely what weeded out the country influence
>in contemporary pop.

not OTM.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

Once again wikipedia might be of interest here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_rock_and_roll_record

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 25 September 2006 22:55 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe a good question is "who made the first self-consciously rock'n'roll record?" or something.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

(But maybe not on this thread.)

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost Having said that Paul's probably right in as much that very, very little of the music which would have been relatively easy to find in the US would have been heard, never mind commoly available in the UK. Mid 50's and before that we were limited to what was broadcast by the BBC, which was definitely not rock and roll friendly, or more likely picking up on stuff from Europe i.e Radio Luxembourg, Hilversum, American Armed Forces network etc

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

Simon Frith has a theory that the 'embargo' by the BBC on contemporary music at the time, helped foster the growth of the diy skiffle aesthetic which was cheap, easy and exciting. Allowing a generation of British musicians to develop an aesthetic sensibility vastly different to those who would have been exposed to the music first hand.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:11 (eighteen years ago)

one common problem that comes up when trying to identiy the roots of rock - people invent this inviolate barrier between "white country" and "black blues" which is totally revisionist...country and blues have always been incestuous...

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:12 (eighteen years ago)

Good radio DJs and good jukeboxes trumped Jim Crow, over and over.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:16 (eighteen years ago)

The "we were inspired by American Blues and some country or whatever" thing has been overstated as some kind of blurry fact by people like Wagamuffin forever when all the facts are out there...

I've never said that, you jerk off. Take your slander and stick it up your patootie. And anyway, at least I'm not so simple as to buy into the Dave Marsh horse sushi idea that "Louie Louie" created the lineage of the 60's rock canon.
So just go to bed Fred, your corporate masters have a big day planned for you tommorow...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Monday, 25 September 2006 23:57 (eighteen years ago)

How simple are you, then?

"Louie Louie" is as good a touchstone as any; PappaWheelie just gave you a whole slew of touchstones, most of which seem to be beyond your "rockism" crusade's narrow parameters. That must suck to you.

Why don't you work on bringing something to the table before accusing people of slander.

[And who's Fred?]

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:16 (eighteen years ago)

louie louie? gimme a break.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:26 (eighteen years ago)

Sure. "Louie Louie" or "Shakin' All Over" (Johnny Kidd or Guess Who version) or Arthur Smith's "Guitar Boogie" or "One O'Clock Jump" or side two of Revolver or side one of Quicksilver's Happy Trails or Nellie McKay's new CD.

Whatever rocks you. It's all good.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:36 (eighteen years ago)

But shoot me if I ever try to sell you on "13 essential albums of rockism."

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:37 (eighteen years ago)

squirrel police otm about the non-otm-ness of the above. all you need to do is fill out the missing names behind that "etc": brenda lee, jackie deshannon, skeeter davis, blah blah blah. many of them heavily inspired by country, some of them country to the bone. and your next step after them is the beatles, whose covers of buck owens and carl perkins served as a not-so-subtle reminder of the massive influence that country music -- particularly its harmonies, particularly as expressed by the everly brothers -- had on everything they did. then you get your dylan and your byrds and your "sticky fingers" and your eagles and your poco and, excuse me, did someone say country's influence had been weeded out at some point?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:44 (eighteen years ago)

the Dave Marsh horse sushi idea that "Louie Louie" created the lineage of the 60's rock canon

methinks that is not what dave marsh thinks or has ever thought.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:45 (eighteen years ago)

So Rockers didn't start their own bands in the 60's? They only listened to old music?

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:46 (eighteen years ago)

i think pretty much every auteur was a slavish fanboy of someone earlier, eg. mozart desperately trying to out-vivaldi vivaldi.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 00:56 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe "weeded out" wasn't the best choice of words. Perhaps you could say that a certain hard-country/rockabilly sound was less likely to crossover into the Top 40 by the time of "I'm Sorry" or "End of the World".

xpost

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:25 (eighteen years ago)

The "weeded out country" is being taken (not surprisingly) literally. Bottom line is, the major labels got their hands on the rock/pop thing (as opposed to Tin Pan Alley pop standards) more in the 60's than they did in the 50's, which put Sun Records et al on the outskirts. That was my point.

Being I've proven myself on this thread to at least a clue about popular music evolution to some degree (as if I needed to), I'm sure you can guess that I understand 60's countrypolitan and it's reach. Jackie DeShannon's, Pati Page's, (et al) influences and context are certainly in my musical vocabulary, and those trying to spark conversations with this dead horse now searching for loopholes after the fact is rather transparent. Fred.

I broadened the pallette of this anyway and "put up", as once demanded, offering more on this roots-of-rock subject than most here, even if 10% is off. Feel free to continue to look for loopholes...there may even be a handful of typos to attack.

Most people know better, but I threw you a bone. Certainly don't regret it as I'm sure it helped in the long run...

x-post

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:28 (eighteen years ago)

(thanks mark...I thought my point was somewhat clear, so, you know, loopholes...)

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:29 (eighteen years ago)

Once again wikipedia might be of interest here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_rock_and_roll_record

DO NOT WANT (that theory what I'm aiming to dismantle)

Who invented rock and roll?

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:34 (eighteen years ago)

i took the weeded-out-the-country thing literally because it was stated literally in the first place. but, yeah, of course there are loopholes in yours and there are loopholes in mine, too, because there's hardly any such thing as purebred music. if it was mid to late 20th century pop, it almost certainly had some blues in it and some country and some soul and some tin pan alley and some broadway and some gospel and you name it. there was a lot more weeding-in then weeding-out going on, even if something was always falling out of fashion at one point or another.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:41 (eighteen years ago)

You know...even with someone like you who's been here forever and clearly respects ILM's community and whatever (using search function, takes inventory if he's beating a dead horse unecessarily, etc), I don't expect to get praise for being right 9 out of 10 times if that ever was the case...I expect that 1 time to be called into question for the sake of building the conversation and getting the sought after answers.

But in certain instances, some people take offense and look for loopholes...

I didn't interpret it as that in your case.

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 01:48 (eighteen years ago)

hell i don't take offense at anything on ilm, save for the occasional poxy fule message. it's 70 percent about building the conversation and 30 percent about avoiding work. this was in fact an attempt at a building-the-conversation moment, with a tad of the snarkiness that i sometimes can't help because i am not, alas, snark checking cuz.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 02:01 (eighteen years ago)

So maybe we can clear the air about 60's "rock" then. Louie Louie was cited as it's the first big hit I can think of with any garage feel, although I wasn't suggesting this was the first hit of the decade by any means.

Something I think about often is the 1950's sounding rock and roll that was a hold over, and the difference between those songs that sound more 1960's at least to my ears. The end mark for this litmus test is Feb 64 as that's the start of global Beatlemania.

I'm basically listing songs that were not only hits, but longstanding oldies radio staples, and dividing them stylistically to see where Louie Louie fits in. I'm sure I'll leave out a small percentage as an oversight.

The 60's sound seems to start with mostly soul. Of course, Atlantic Records had a huge hand in this as one of the main "major indies" at the time, and their focus was Black music then, but ABC and RCA were the actual majors working this angle:

Soul

(1959) Ray Charles - What'd I Say, Parts 1 & 2
(1960) Joe Jones - You Talk too Much
(1960) Ray Charles - Georgia on My Mind
(1960) Sam Cooke - Chain Gang
(1960) Sam Cooke - Wonderful World
(1960) The Drifters - Save the Last Dance for Me
(1960) The Drifters - This Magic Moment
(1960) The Miracles - Shop Around
(1961) Ben E. King - Stand by Me
(1961) Ernie K-Doe - Mother-In-Law
(1961) Lee Dorsey - Ya Ya
(1961) Ray Charles - Hit The Road Jack
(1961) Sam Cooke - Cupid
(1961) The Impressions - Gypsy Woman
(1961) The Marvelettes - Please Mr. Postman
(1962) Booker T. & The MG's - Green Onions
(1962) Marvin Gaye - Stubborn Kind of Fellow
(1962) Sam Cooke - Twistin' the Night Away
(1962) The Contours - Do You Love Me
(1962) The Drifters - Up On the Roof
(1962) The Isley Brothers - Twist and Shout
(1962) The Marvelettes - Beechwood 4-5789
(1962) The Miracles - You've Really Got a Hold On Me
(1963) Barbara Lewis - Hello Stranger
(1963) Doris Troy - Just One Look
(1963) Jimmy Soul - If You Wanna Be Happy
(1963) Little Stevie Wonder - Fingertips
(1963) Martha Reeves & The Vandellas - (Love is Like a) Heat Wave
(1963) Marvin Gaye - Pride and Joy
(1963) Ruby & the Romantics - Our Day Will Come
(1963) Rufus Thomas - Walking the Dog
(1963) Sam Cooke - Another Saturday Night
(1963) Sam Cooke - Nothing Can Change this Love
(1963) The Drifters - On Broadway
(1963) The Drifters - Under the Boardwalk
(1963) The Miracles - Mickey's Monkey

Brill Building/Girl Group/60's teen Hit Factory thing:

(1960) Brenda Lee - I'm Sorry
(1962) Little Eva - The Loco-motion
(1962) Marcie Blane - Bobby's Girl
(1962) The Exciters - Tell Him
(1962) The Shirelles - Soldier Boy
(1963) Dusty Springfield - I Only Want To Be With You
(1963) Lesley Gore - It's My Party
(1963) Lesley Gore - Judy's Turn To Cry
(1963) Leslie Gore - It's My Party
(1963) Little Peggy March - I Will Follow Him
(1963) The Angels - My Boyfriend's Back
(1963) The Chiffons - He's So Fine
(1963) The Chiffons - One Fine Day
(1963) The Cookies - Don't Say Nothin' Bad (About My Baby)
(1963) The Crystals - Da Doo Ron Ron
(1963) The Crystals - Then He Kissed Me
(1963) The Ronettes - Be My Baby

Surf-Pop

(1962) The Beach Boys - Surfin'
(1962) The Beach Boys - Surfin' Safari
(1962) The Beach Boys - 409
(1963) Jan & Dean - Surf City
(1963) The Beach Boys - Catch a Wave
(1963) The Beach Boys - I Get Around
(1963) The Beach Boys - In My Room
(1963) The Beach Boys - Little Deuce Coupe
(1963) The Beach Boys - Shut Down
(1963) The Beach Boys - Surfer Girl
(1963) The Beach Boys - Surfin' U.S.A.
(1963) The Safaris - Wipe Out
(1963) The Ventures - Pipeline

Songs that sound like the 1950's to me (which is highly debatable)

(1960) Billy Bland - Let The Little Girl Dance
(1960) Brian Hyland - Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini
(1960) Connie Francis - Where the Boys Are
(1960) Elvis Presley - Are You Lonesome Tonight
(1960) Elvis Presley - It's Now or Never
(1960) Mark Dinning - Teen Angel
(1960) Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs - Stay
(1960) Neil Sedaka - Calendar Girl
(1960) Roy Orbison - Only The Lonely (Know The Way I Feel)
(1960) The Everly Brothers - Cathy's Clown
(1960) The Everly Brothers - When Will I Be Loved
(1960) The Hollywood Argyles - Alley-Oop
(1961) Barry Mann - Who Put the Bomp (In the Bomp, Bomp, Bomp)
(1961) Bobby Lewis - Tossin' and Turnin'
(1961) Chubby Checker - Limbo Rock
(1961) Curtis Lee & The Halos - Pretty Little Angle Eyes
(1961) Dee Clark - Raindrops
(1961) Del Shannon - Runaway
(1961) Dion - Runaround Sue
(1961) Elvis Presley - Can't Help Falling in Love
(1961) Elvis Presley - Little Sister
(1961) James Darren - Goodbye Cruel World
(1961) Jimmy Dean - Big Bad John
(1961) Joey Dee & The Starliters - Peppermint Twist
(1961) Ricky Nelson - Hello Mary Lou
(1961) Ricky Nelson - Travelin' Man
(1961) Roy Orbison - Crying
(1961) The Cleftones - Heart and Soul
(1961) The Earls - Remember Then
(1961) The Fleetwoods - The Great Impostor
(1961) The Marcels - Blue Moon
(1961) The Tokens - The Lion Sleeps Tonight (Wimoweh)
(1962) Bobby 'Boris' Pickett & The Cryptkickers - Monster Mash
(1962) Brian Hyland - Sealed with a Kiss
(1962) Dionn Warwick - Don't Make Me Over
(1962) Elvis Presley - Good Luck Charm
(1962) Elvis Presley - Return to Sender
(1962) Gene Chandler - Duke Of Earl
(1962) Neil Sedaka - Breaking Up is Hard to Do
(1962) Paul & Paula - Hey Paula
(1962) Roy Orbison - Dream Baby (How Long Must I Dream)
(1962) Shelley Fabares - Johnny Angel
(1962) The Alley Cats - Puddin N' Tain
(1963) Alan Sherman - Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh!
(1963) Bobby Vinton - Blue on Blue
(1963) Bobby Vinton - Blue Velvet
(1963) Elvis Presley - (You're The) Devil In Disguise
(1963) Lenny Welch - Since I Fell For You
(1963) Randy & the Rainbows - Denise
(1963) Ricky Nelson - Fools Rush In
(1963) The Tymes - So Much in Love

The leftover misc. The Four Seasons rule, partly due to Bob Crewe:

(1962) Bruce Channel - Hey Baby (countryish, 60's poppish)
(1962) Chris Montez - Let's Dance (beachy, without being surf)
(1962) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Big Girls Don't Cry
(1962) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Sherry
(1962) Freddy Cannon - Palisades Park (beachy, without being surf)
(1963) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Walk Like a Man
(1963) Jimmy Gilmer & The Fireballs - Sugar Shack (bubblegumish)

Garage Rock

(1963) Kingsmen - Louie Louie (trashed out garage)

Still seems to stand alone as the first big garage hit.

Surfin' Bird was 1964 combination of Surf and Garage-y-ness, but by then, the 60's sound was established as Beatlemania was full on.

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 02:44 (eighteen years ago)

Describe garage feel, PappaZit. Beyond being just electric guitar music recorded with low production values...what is this 'feel' you speak of.

Who's Fred?
Freddy's dead.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 14:25 (eighteen years ago)

I still find it hard to believe there was no quintessential counterpart to the Rocker ideology as the Faces/Kinks etc.

The Kinks definitely weren't a mod band. Mods weren't really interested in "bands" anyway, they were into dancing, not going to gigs and standing about watching some twat on stage who wasn't as cool as they were anyway. They were like the skinheads, they only really listened to black music anyway.

― Am I Re-elected Yet? (Dada), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 14:35 (eighteen years ago)

Describe garage feel, PappaZit. Beyond being just electric guitar music recorded with low production values...what is this 'feel' you speak of.

You're an idiot and I'm not the first, the tenth, nor the last to say it here. Good luck selling dead concepts to someone (anyone) and hopefully those Jack Black movies continue to entertain you as much as you have us.

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago)

Refuse to answer, eh? Just as I thought. Could that be because you HAVE no answer for any question that requires actual thought as opposed to text book cut and paste hogwash you get off of Internet sites?

Tell me what 'garage feel' is or else you lose all credibilty.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

I will say it's an hono(u)r that despite the fact that you are universally hated here, but I'm the only one to get under your skin.

You've been schooled...

Keep posting 'cause the excelsior thread is slow today and I *know* you'll fuel it. Get your squirrel shill in on it too. But dont' post anything of conversational value. I've done enough of that for both of us. Just get all angry and stuff. We enjoy that.

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

Angry? You've got me all wrong Amigo. I just want to hear your defintion of 'garage feel'. WHy do you refuse to answer this? You've done more side-stepping and diversionalry tactics than Scot McLellen on a bad hair day. So, I already told you why I think you refuste to answer my simple question, and until you answer, it 'appears' that my assumption is correct.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

FUNNIER!!

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 16:06 (eighteen years ago)

dude, all of your assumptions are correct

now for the love of god, please, please continue your former policy of overposting; i need something for the excelsior thread!!!

― PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (PappaWheelie 2), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

PEW:

SHOW US YR 'ROCKISM' T-SHIRT!

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

What bands did 90'post rockers or math rockers or jazz rockers listen to?

― mucho (mucho), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 17:22 (eighteen years ago)

PEW:
SHOW US YR 'ROCKISM' T-SHIRT!

I'll think about it...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah ace, think about it!

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

papawheelie in quantity over quality shockah.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:50 (eighteen years ago)

I'm glad you found a team mate sir

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

"papawheelie in quantity over quality shockah."

only pick any

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

haha, I was in tears the other day thinking about only pick any

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

>Blackboard Jungle - 1955
>
>Elvis signed to RCA - 1956
>
> Payola Scandel shuts down freeform radio jocks - 1959

>(1961) The Cleftones - Heart and Soul
>(1961) The Earls - Remember Then
>(1961) The Fleetwoods - The Great Impostor
>(1961) The Marcels - Blue Moon
>(1961) The Tokens - The Lion Sleeps Tonight (Wimoweh)
>(1962) Bobby 'Boris' Pickett & The Cryptkickers - Monster Mash
>(1962) Brian Hyland - Sealed with a Kiss

i was in tears over the fact that you think page after page of this shit makes your point

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

its called a timeline.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

can we just put him in a sack with squirrel police and tie it up

-- s1ocki (slytus...), September 23rd, 2006. (later)

cat in the bag
bag in the river

-- a name means a lot just by itself (lfamula...), September 23rd, 2006. (later)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

since it takes some serious hammering for SP to get anything, the recap

2.) dog latin asks in 2004 what did 60's rockers listen to. People answer with somewhat logical things such as Chuck Berry

2.) ilxors annoyed to no end with SP. Not because of his body odor or sense of fashion; but because he's said nothing of value

3.) dog latin revives as he's not convinced. I post a link to john lennon's personal jukebox, thinking that might answer the question to a degree

4.) PEW, who many suggest is just a character/troll, goes into his usual rhetoric of half-ass history lessons with no concrete supporting facts.

5.) SP rambles on in the same manner, citing artists who aren't even pivitol to PEW's shitty execuse for a history lesson

6.) I offer concrete facts that paint the history of PEW's thread hijacking.

7.) SP & PEW look for loopholes, which is the only thing left to do after being proven wrong and not accepting it.

8.) ILX returns to mocking, which fuels them to continue

9.) smiles all around

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

10.) Profit!

― mark 0 (mark 0), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

> 6.) I offer concrete facts that paint the history of PEW's
>thread hijacking.

i followed you up until this point. how is a random list like this "concrete facts." you offer no compelling link between these random factoids.

Moondog Coronation Ball - 1952

Elvis & Bill Haley record souped up Hillbilly Boogie (creating the template for Rockabilly) - 1954

Blackboard Jungle - 1955

Elvis signed to RCA - 1956

Dick Clark watered it down with white teen Idols - roughly 1957

Payola Scandel shuts down freeform radio jocks - 1959

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

11.) The circle of life begins anew

― M@tt He1geson: Real Name, No Gimmicks (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:39 (eighteen years ago)

GODDMAN YOU PAPPAWHEELIE YOU TYPED TWO LINES WITH THE NUMBER 2 YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER AND MY JOB IS TO POINT HTATH OUT THEREFORE I AM A SUCCESS AND YOU ARE NOT
---------------------------

shouldn't you be complaining about squirrel police?

-- electric sound of jim [and why not] (electricsoun...), September 19th, 2006. (later)

I don't get why "Ban Squirrel_Police" was moved to ITR.

-- Marmot (marmotwolo...), September 19th, 2006. (later)

ban squirrel police

-- gear (speed.to.roa...), September 19th, 2006. (later)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

I cited Louie Louie as being a stand alone track from the early 60's that became a template for a number of things that happened in 1965 and later that rockists hold dear (Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs, ? & The Mysterions, The Who, early Kinks, everything on a Nuggets comp, sans the psyche).

You response was simply "gimmie a break", backed up with nothing.

I explained it in detail for you offering timelines, specific songs, and dividing it into overlapping sounds.

You didn't refute the answer, instead, you attempted to blast me for offereing too much of an expalnation -- which is what you initially requested.

That's called looking for loopholes.

If you don't know how Blackboard Jungle and Moondog Coronation Ball fit into the history of Rock & Roll, then you certainly weren't qualified to throw things into _that_ pot. They weren't random things, they are, very specifically, the cornerstones of the history of Rock and Roll.

If PEW is in fact a real person who is as naive as he comes off, his history lessons got a swift update for his future ramblings. Maybe his supposed book might offer something other than telling me I need to own Bob Dylan and Liz Phair (?!).

Again, I don't claim to be 100% right on this topic, but I worked like hell over the years to get at least this much of an understanding...and it's the most offered so far here.

Feel free to contribute or refute.

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

http://psychevanhetfolk.homestead.com/files/moondog_2.jpg

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

(enter joke about owning Liz Phair here ______)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

Pappa, you and Squirrel Police need to settle it on the mic!

― mucho (mucho), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:30 (eighteen years ago)

My name's Barney Rubble and I'm here to say...

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Pappa he fried you like omelets, break free from yo ego and see

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

I've got tears in my eyes reminicing about the tears in my eyes from that

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

Freestyle Baiting: What Is It?

― mucho (mucho), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

my name is being tossed around pretty free and loose on this thread, and therefore I feel compelled to post something...but I've lost interest in this conversation somewhere back around the time that I realized I was actually trying to argue with someone who think 'louie louie' is the holy grail of rockist fundamentalism...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 23:54 (eighteen years ago)

wow. this has quickly morphed from most awkward thread ever to best thread ever.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

but I've lost interest in this conversation somewhere back around the time that I realized I was actually trying to argue with someone who think 'louie louie' is the holy grail of rockist fundamentalism...

will that be in your book, "ace"?

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 00:38 (eighteen years ago)

So Ace is now terrorizing the ILM boards, using pretty similar tactics to what he used here. Rockist rants, stupid "history lessons", and the like. There's threads all over with "Paul Edward Wagemann" all over it.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:oV3Us_1P85EJ:www.soundopinions.com/forum/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D105%26view%3Dgetlastpost+Paul+Edward+Wagemann&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

Thanks to Mr. Que

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 00:40 (eighteen years ago)

My fave response is on this one

------------------
mistermook's question:

Hi Paul, could you please explain to me as detailed as possible what Rockism actually is? Thanks!

Jalebi's response:

I'll do that for you.

PaulEddieWankermann's reply:
Well, it's all to do with

copied and pasted crap here
some grammatical errors here
a reference to his upcoming shite book here
reference to his 9 inch wang here
a poor attempt at a "witty" joke here
------------------------

NME.com users, OTM

For the record, I think there are generally dozens of pivotol hit po p charting records of any given genre and decade. I listed pretty much all of the hit records (sans Jay & The Americans [d'oh]) between 1960 and 1963. My only point, which is stated, is that Louie Louie stands alone categorically during that span, and does get absorbed into things a year or two later. Is it the beginning and end of anything? I never stretched it that far.

Look at my lists again and you'll see that Ray Charles 1959 hit "What'd I'd Say" is the beginning of the 60's to me. I stand behind that for sure.

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 00:50 (eighteen years ago)

My only point, which is stated, is that Louie Louie stands alone categorically during that span

though maybe this title from your list, which pre-dates louie louie, has some of the same mojo in it:

(1962) The Contours - Do You Love Me

― loophole picking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 01:25 (eighteen years ago)

Countours = Motown

Do You Love Me = Name that dance soul in the long lineage of Shing-a-ling/Popcorn/whatever that alllll comes from The Twist and it's fallout

hell, fuck backpeddling, Louie Louie has long been considered the proto-garage rock song, shit, despite what arguemnt two internet goofballs have gotten themselves into.

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:08 (eighteen years ago)

(not that Motown equates to Soul 100% of the time...but we're not talking about Nick & The Jaguars' 1959 non-hit single)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:10 (eighteen years ago)

I think we can expand this circular go kart track into a discussion about non-hits, sure, but that be one hell of a hole to get out of...so:

(1957) Duane Eddy - Ramrod

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:11 (eighteen years ago)

Countours = Motown

but what does motown equal? :)

― loophole picking internet goofball (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:17 (eighteen years ago)

(wait a minute, you credited me upthread for "takes inventory if he's beating a dead horse unecessarily." must. stop. now.)

― unnecessary internet goofball (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:19 (eighteen years ago)

This thread makes me dizzy, but then I focus on the picture of Moondog and I am all right.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:21 (eighteen years ago)

does it make you dizzy miss (50s rocker that influenced certain 60s rockers) lizzy?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:26 (eighteen years ago)

now, fact checking cuz, behave yourself!

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:32 (eighteen years ago)

are you asking me to, um, slow down?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:33 (eighteen years ago)

"I think '70s rock would have been 100% better if they'd all listened to bebop instead of blues "

Pete Townshend and Charlie Watts were both big Charlie Parker fans.

― Earl Nash (earlnash), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 02:33 (eighteen years ago)

hell, fuck backpeddling, Louie Louie has long been considered the proto-garage rock song

Considered by who? I dont want you telling me something is so jsut becasue someone else considers it so. If you really think that 'louie, louie' is THE first/best/most influential garage rock song, then show me you have a brain and explain why--dont jsut say, 'well its considered that by...uh, I guess someone...who I can't even site as saying it...but I think I heard that once, like in...uh rolling stone or something...uh...duh...doi-ey..."*makes fart noice then picks his nose.

If YOU consider it the holy grail of garage rock, then YOU tell me YOUR opinion...GEEZ US FREAKIN CHRIST ON A GOD DAMNED POPCICLE already!!!

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://static.flickr.com/31/38833175_0d66f04a76.jpg

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

Let's lookup the Kingsmen at AllMusic. Maybe they make some kind of reference to Louie louie being some sort of prototype Garage Rock song:

The Kingsmen by Cub Koda: A rock & roll band from Portland, Oregon, the Kingsmen's one big hit "Louie, Louie" defined the garage-band style and became one of the all-time classics.

Hmmm...well Allmusic is only one example. I wonder if long time ilxors think Louie Louie has at least a "grarage feel", if not being the number one garage rock song:

1000 garage-rock classics

Oh. Look at that. A rolling attempt to catalog 1000 garage rock songs started back in 2001 lists Louie Louie first. I wonder what prompted chris andrews to do that.

But intiatlly in this thread, that wasn't exactly my suggestion. It was more vague. I just said that between 1960 and 1963, it was a hit that stands alone stylistically, and what it did got absorbed into other hits of the decade. That's well reflected on this thread, which also lists Louie louie at the top:

Frat Rock: Search & Destroy

Clearly, people who don't think Liz Phair is the holy grail of rockist fundamentalism think Louie Louie was influential in some way. I didn't offer some random, thoughtless idea here.

I know above you said you were finished with this debate (although you've offered zero, yet keep returning, and thus justifying Mr. Que's acusations), but I have proven my small point and am seriously through with you wagamuffin...as is everybody else here worth a damn.

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

i can't be bothered to read all this, but is someone actually angrily demanding that someone else explain why Louie Louie is considered an archetypal garage rock song? come on now.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

yes Fritz that is what's happening.

apropos of nothing, I once assisted a filmmaker in collecting 100 different versions of "Louie Louie" for a movie he was working on, ugh that was a trial.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.coolforever.com/temp/patboone_yesindeed_lp.jpg

xpost

― mark 0 (mark 0), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

jeez then i want someone to definitively prove to me that the beatles are highly regarded in some quarters, and i don't want any bullshit made-up answers either i want facts, damn it!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

Now you're comparing the Kingsmen to the BEATLES? GEEZ US!!!

― mucho (mucho), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

surely someone on this thread has claimed that "louie, louie" was the first ***prog** record, no?

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

actually it was the first emo record.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

I just said that between 1960 and 1963, it was a hit that stands alone stylistically, and what it did got absorbed into other hits of the decade.
*sign* I guess I'm going to have to teach PappaZit the difference between sighting someone else who claims something is true and actually using your own brain to EXPLAIN why it is true. I am nether denying nor claiming that 'louie louie' is garage rock, or that it was stylisitically different than other stuff in the top 40 in the early 60s OR that it got absorbed into later hits of the decade. What I am saying is that, I take nothing at face value. If someone says something, I ask for proof--that's why I never beleived the Bush/cheney clowns when they were selling the war for oil in Iraq o the rest of AMerica. When somebody says somethign is true, I say prove it.
SO when you if you are going to make such claims, you cant jsut say well British intelligence tells us that 'louie louie' was garage rock and the CIA also claims this. I want to see the yellow cake!
Okay I'm mixing my metaphors or something here, but...BUT, I say. Rock was MIA from the Top 40 charts from 59 to 63. If 'louie louie' was one of the rare examples of Rock to make the charts in that period--then great. But that doesnt mean that there wasnt other Rock being made at that time. In the extremely crappy book Dave Marsh wrote about Louie Louie, (or maybe it was some other book, but I think it was his) he talks extensively about the garage rock scene in the pacific northwest that included the Wailers and a young Jimi Hendrix.
Now if you want to prove to me that 'louie louie' is all those thngs you clam it to be, you have to show me that it was a) stylistically different than everything else from the Top 40 at that time (youve listed what was going on in the top 40, but you havent pointed out what makes 'louie louie' different)...b) examples of how it was absorbed into later rock (that specifically show louie louie influence and not the influence of 50s rock or other garage rock of the early 60s) and c) what specifically makes 'louie louie' garage rock? I've asaked you this last one specifically already, but you have refused to explain the 'garage feel' beyond what I've sited as electric guitar music with cheap production values.
So either answer these questions or else your credibility will remain a joke!

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

Class?

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.whoknew.us/images/fat_albert.jpg
Did you say class? That dude got no class. (que laugh track)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

Dear Paul Edward Wagemann,

We here at ilm don't have to prove anything to you, because you are an assclown. (An entertaining assclown and attention whore, that is for sure.) We don't have to show you the yellowcake, we don't have to talk to you about The Sonics, garage rock, guitar tone, parakeets, CIA reports, the 1962 Corvette, Hendrix, fart noises, Egg Drop Soup, Mayor Florio LaGuardia vs. pinball games, or anything else for that matter. You are a clown. And your posts are all the proof we need.

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

someone with more photoshop skills than i needs to make a "wrinklepauledwardwagemann" graphic a la the "iraquaeda" saddam->osama one

― mango selassie (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:09 (eighteen years ago)

electric guitar music with cheap production values

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/c/christ_char_geniusoft_101b.jpg

― mark 0 (mark 0), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

"If 'louie louie' was one of the rare examples of Rock to make the charts in that period--then great. But that doesnt mean that there wasnt other Rock being made at that time. In the extremely crappy book Dave Marsh wrote about Louie Louie, (or maybe it was some other book, but I think it was his) he talks extensively about the garage rock scene in the pacific northwest that included the Wailers and a young Jimi Hendrix."

THE KINGSMEN ARE FROM PORTLAND ie, the Pacific Northwest!!! wtf Their hit was bigger than anything recorded by the Wailers and "a young Jimi Hendrix". The song was covered by bazillions of bands. The sound of the record was copied incessantly for years to come (including by such r'n'r luminaries as the Beach Boys, the Kinks, etc.) I mean COME ON

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:11 (eighteen years ago)

DO NOT ENGAGE THE ASSCLOWN

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

EVIDENCE AQUIRED, ABORT MISSION

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

Rock was MIA from the Top 40 charts from 59 to 63

The Four Seasons rock pretty much more then any record you own, as did Phil Spector.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

Dan, I was going to say the same, but if dude ain't get it from the detailed lists above, he ain't gonna get it, which agan justifies Mr. Que's constant reminder of reality here...

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:48 (eighteen years ago)

"rock" is totally relative, "garage feel" is relative, etc. any theory is as good as the next when it comes to this kind of thing, although the answer to the original question is probably most successfully found in artist interviews.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, hell...

Songs that sound like the 1950's to me (which is highly debatable)
(1960) Billy Bland - Let The Little Girl Dance
(1960) Brian Hyland - Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini
(1960) Connie Francis - Where the Boys Are
(1960) Elvis Presley - Are You Lonesome Tonight
(1960) Elvis Presley - It's Now or Never
(1960) Mark Dinning - Teen Angel
(1960) Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs - Stay
(1960) Neil Sedaka - Calendar Girl
(1960) Roy Orbison - Only The Lonely (Know The Way I Feel)
(1960) The Everly Brothers - Cathy's Clown
(1960) The Everly Brothers - When Will I Be Loved
(1960) The Hollywood Argyles - Alley-Oop
(1961) Barry Mann - Who Put the Bomp (In the Bomp, Bomp, Bomp)
(1961) Bobby Lewis - Tossin' and Turnin'
(1961) Chubby Checker - Limbo Rock
(1961) Curtis Lee & The Halos - Pretty Little Angle Eyes
(1961) Dee Clark - Raindrops
(1961) Del Shannon - Runaway
(1961) Dion - Runaround Sue
(1961) Elvis Presley - Can't Help Falling in Love
(1961) Elvis Presley - Little Sister
(1961) James Darren - Goodbye Cruel World
(1961) Jimmy Dean - Big Bad John
(1961) Joey Dee & The Starliters - Peppermint Twist
(1961) Ricky Nelson - Hello Mary Lou
(1961) Ricky Nelson - Travelin' Man
(1961) Roy Orbison - Crying
(1961) The Cleftones - Heart and Soul
(1961) The Earls - Remember Then
(1961) The Fleetwoods - The Great Impostor
(1961) The Marcels - Blue Moon
(1961) The Tokens - The Lion Sleeps Tonight (Wimoweh)
(1962) Bobby 'Boris' Pickett & The Cryptkickers - Monster Mash
(1962) Brian Hyland - Sealed with a Kiss
(1962) Dionn Warwick - Don't Make Me Over
(1962) Elvis Presley - Good Luck Charm
(1962) Elvis Presley - Return to Sender
(1962) Gene Chandler - Duke Of Earl
(1962) Neil Sedaka - Breaking Up is Hard to Do
(1962) Paul & Paula - Hey Paula
(1962) Roy Orbison - Dream Baby (How Long Must I Dream)
(1962) Shelley Fabares - Johnny Angel
(1962) The Alley Cats - Puddin N' Tain
(1963) Alan Sherman - Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh!
(1963) Bobby Vinton - Blue on Blue
(1963) Bobby Vinton - Blue Velvet
(1963) Elvis Presley - (You're The) Devil In Disguise
(1963) Lenny Welch - Since I Fell For You
(1963) Randy & the Rainbows - Denise
(1963) Ricky Nelson - Fools Rush In
(1963) The Tymes - So Much in Love
Soul
(1959) Ray Charles - What'd I Say, Parts 1 & 2
(1960) Joe Jones - You Talk too Much
(1960) Ray Charles - Georgia on My Mind
(1960) Sam Cooke - Chain Gang
(1960) Sam Cooke - Wonderful World
(1960) The Drifters - Save the Last Dance for Me
(1960) The Drifters - This Magic Moment
(1960) The Miracles - Shop Around
(1961) Ben E. King - Stand by Me
(1961) Ernie K-Doe - Mother-In-Law
(1961) Lee Dorsey - Ya Ya
(1961) Ray Charles - Hit The Road Jack
(1961) Sam Cooke - Cupid
(1961) The Impressions - Gypsy Woman
(1961) The Marvelettes - Please Mr. Postman
(1962) Booker T. & The MG's - Green Onions
(1962) Marvin Gaye - Stubborn Kind of Fellow
(1962) Sam Cooke - Twistin' the Night Away
(1962) The Contours - Do You Love Me
(1962) The Drifters - Up On the Roof
(1962) The Isley Brothers - Twist and Shout
(1962) The Marvelettes - Beechwood 4-5789
(1962) The Miracles - You've Really Got a Hold On Me
(1963) Barbara Lewis - Hello Stranger
(1963) Doris Troy - Just One Look
(1963) Jimmy Soul - If You Wanna Be Happy
(1963) Little Stevie Wonder - Fingertips
(1963) Martha Reeves & The Vandellas - (Love is Like a) Heat Wave
(1963) Marvin Gaye - Pride and Joy
(1963) Ruby & the Romantics - Our Day Will Come
(1963) Rufus Thomas - Walking the Dog
(1963) Sam Cooke - Another Saturday Night
(1963) Sam Cooke - Nothing Can Change this Love
(1963) The Drifters - On Broadway
(1963) The Drifters - Under the Boardwalk
(1963) The Miracles - Mickey's Monkey
Brill Building/Girl Group/60's teen Hit Factory thing:
(1960) Brenda Lee - I'm Sorry
(1962) Little Eva - The Loco-motion
(1962) Marcie Blane - Bobby's Girl
(1962) The Exciters - Tell Him
(1962) The Shirelles - Soldier Boy
(1963) Dusty Springfield - I Only Want To Be With You
(1963) Lesley Gore - It's My Party
(1963) Lesley Gore - Judy's Turn To Cry
(1963) Leslie Gore - It's My Party
(1963) Little Peggy March - I Will Follow Him
(1963) The Angels - My Boyfriend's Back
(1963) The Chiffons - He's So Fine
(1963) The Chiffons - One Fine Day
(1963) The Cookies - Don't Say Nothin' Bad (About My Baby)
(1963) The Crystals - Da Doo Ron Ron
(1963) The Crystals - Then He Kissed Me
(1963) The Ronettes - Be My Baby
Surf-Pop
(1962) The Beach Boys - Surfin'
(1962) The Beach Boys - Surfin' Safari
(1962) The Beach Boys - 409
(1963) Jan & Dean - Surf City
(1963) The Beach Boys - Catch a Wave
(1963) The Beach Boys - I Get Around
(1963) The Beach Boys - In My Room
(1963) The Beach Boys - Little Deuce Coupe
(1963) The Beach Boys - Shut Down
(1963) The Beach Boys - Surfer Girl
(1963) The Beach Boys - Surfin' U.S.A.
(1963) The Safaris - Wipe Out
(1963) The Ventures - Pipeline

The leftover misc. The Four Seasons rule, partly due to Bob Crewe:
(1962) Bruce Channel - Hey Baby (countryish, 60's poppish)
(1962) Chris Montez - Let's Dance (beachy, without being surf)
(1962) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Big Girls Don't Cry
(1962) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Sherry
(1962) Freddy Cannon - Palisades Park (beachy, without being surf)
(1963) Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons - Walk Like a Man
(1963) Jimmy Gilmer & The Fireballs - Sugar Shack (bubblegumish)
Garage Rock

(1963) Kingsmen - Louie Louie (trashed out garage)

All of these charted pop/rock, and pop doesn't mean nelson riddle arranged tin pan alley standards.

He ain't ever gonna get it ...

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

what if X or Y influential artists never listened to the radio? not at all inconcievable.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.geocities.com/cinemorgue2/wallaceshawn.jpg

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

Now, you're STARTING to catch on. But still not specific enough. If a band covers a song, thats a pretty good indication that it was influenced by that song. But the Kingsmen didnt even write 'louie louie' they were just doing a cover version of it themselves. So what I need is what specifically about their cover of it, influenced the Rockers of the 60s? And like I say, this is a question that is simply asking for your opinion. I'm not gonna jump down yoru throat and cry wrong, if you make an honest attempt and answering the question. But at least show me you have some semblance of independent thought and can articulate what you think (if indeed you actually do have original thoughts) makes 'louie louie' garage rock, what has made it influential and how it is stylistically differnt. I realize this is a question that calls upon original and possibly creative thought on your part--so if you continue to refuse to answer, then I guess the reason why will be pretty obvious, won't it?

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg

IM ON UR WEB
HARSHN UR COMITY

― mark 0 (mark 0), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

How about you actually SAY SOMETHING for once and say why you suspect it might not be garage rock? (2xp)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg

http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg
http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg
http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg
http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg
http://myspace-624.vo.llnwd.net/00788/42/69/788039624_m.jpg

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

quickly becoming the best thread ever yet again

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:45 (eighteen years ago)

What makes 'Louie Louie' Garage rock? Well it has all the characteristics of garage rock i.e raucous, anarchic atmosphere, a harsh, raw sound, emphasis on power over finesse. It's like that Cheech and Chong joke about shit. All a little irrelevant as it only became garage rock after the time, term not being coined until several years after the bands in question were functioning.

Was it influential? Made #2 in the US, the explosion of garage bands playing in a similar style following on is documented elsewhere (nuggets etc), though I suppose you'd have to go round asking each band if they were influenced by the Kingsmen. No doubt there were garage rock acts before then, but then they didn't have the reach of the Kingsmen.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:50 (eighteen years ago)

c/d explaining the obvious

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

uh Paul you do realize Pappa and I are different people? as to what makes "Louie Louie" garage rock... I dunno that question is too vague and stupid to even really begin to answer. Its widely acknowledged as "garage rock", it has the sound that came to be associated with subsequent "garage rock" recordings, etc. As to what makes it stylistically different from other songs listed (many of which I myself admittedly haven't heard), I mean all you have to do is listen. If yr ears can't pick out any difference between, say, the Chiffons and the Kingsmen well, there's no hope for you... (and as noted the assertion that rock was "dead" while PHIL SPECTOR was in top form is fucking ridiculous, gimme a break)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:54 (eighteen years ago)

you see, the reason why it's funny is because the man didn't expect to get hit in the groin with a football. you see, the football hit him when he wasn't looking. and it hurt him. and it didn't hit us, so we laugh. do you get it now. the football hit him. in the groin. and it wasn't us.

(x-post, shakey, you know every song up there by sound if not by name - I only listed huge fucking rock-pop oldies radio staples)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:58 (eighteen years ago)

I love it when Wage Man gets hit in the football with a groin

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:00 (eighteen years ago)

maybe that's why he's the only one not in on the joke

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

oh, wait, he's acquired a shill during this; one who previously had no teammates.

Squirrel Police, you are loveable and capable...

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:02 (eighteen years ago)

i bet you we can come up with 26 reasons why louie louie is considered garage in about 26 minutes:

A is for "amateurish". E.g. the false starts and stops, the botched notes, the thuddding ending, the cracking adenoidal zit-faced voice, the zero production values.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

they didn't even cover the chord changes correctly

!!!

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

B is for Bass which is Buried in the mix. It's also for Bad, which everyone thought it was. and richard Berry who wote this (and other Garage Rock classics like Have Love, Will Travel and Farmer John)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

C is for Covers. It was a cover when The Kingsmen did it and The Sonics and the Wailers and The Kinks and Paul Revere and The Raiders and everybody and his mother since. Garage bands like to do covers!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

(haha, that farmer john thing was dismissed today on the frat rock thread. he didn't actually write that)

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

fuck, oh well he did write Have Love... + Louie Louie though

D is for Dez Cadena, who sings one of my favourite versions (by Black Flag). Lots of Punk rock bands covered Louie Louie, cause it's easy to play, everybody knows it, and you can make up nasty lyrics to it easily. These are also all hallmarks of Garage - much of which is just Punk before it was called Punk.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

I can foresee Wagemuffin coming back asking for an equation of specific sounds that equal "garage rock" but genre definitions don't work that way (chuck eddy to thread, even tho I myself usually get frustrated with his genre perambulations...)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

E is for Elementary, i.e. same three chords over and over and over.

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

(x-postiness!)

E is for Easy to Play.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:13 (eighteen years ago)

F is for Fuck, which they don't say but people thought they did. Sexual innuendo is a hallmark of garage lyrics (see also Try It by The Standells and Rumble by Link Wray)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

yeah shakey, the schtick is rather predictable at this point.

the bait would have more value if the questions weren't so ridiculously benign

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

(I gotta go home and take my kid for a walk, you guys can finish this off if you want)

G is for Gerry Rosalie, whose band The Sonics covered Louie Louie too, and were part of that whole Pacific NorthWest scene (wailers, raiders, etc) that was playing speeded up screamy r&b covers in the early 60s

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:18 (eighteen years ago)

damn, I was hoping you'd keep him on the hamster wheel as I was about to start prepping dinner.

having a life sucks when you've found mice to bat aorund :-(

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

H is for Holden. Ron Holden, cited by the aforementioned Dave Marsh as having been the first of the Pacific Northwest musicians to perform "Louie Louie".

H is for Horse Sushi, PEW's opinion of one or more of Mr. Marsh's ideas.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

I is for the Iggy and the Stooges, purported to be the first band to release a version of the song with actually "obscene" lyrics, a practice continued in their wake by numerous punk bands (see Dez Cadena ref above)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

I is also for Iguanas, Iggy Stooge's old Michigan GARAGE BAND

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

uh Paul you do realize Pappa and I are different people? as to what makes "Louie Louie" garage rock... I dunno that question is too vague and stupid to even really begin to answer.

Yeah, I was in a hurry on that post (been busy all day) and just sorta lumped you in with Pappa Zit just to be economical. Sorry Shakey Mo, it wont happen again...
...also, I really dont think there are any stupid questions...I really dont. Everyone has different levels of understanding and different areas of expertise.
Also someone asked me wy I think 'louie louie' is NOT garage rock. But I said earlier in the thread that I'm not saying that it is NOT garage rock. All I was asking for was something other that the generically general statement that Pappa Zit gave. Fine, Pappa Zit, you think it is garage rock, you think it is stylistically different than other top 40s songs from the time, and you think it had a huge influence on 6os Rock bands. Well all of these statements are fine, but they are empty, generic generalizations. If he is going to make this empty generalizations, then I am going to ask him to elaborate so that I will know whether he know his stuff or is full of horse sushi. And since he has refused to answer, then it appears obvious that he doesnt knwo jack squat on a pogo stick...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

wait wait wait there are a LOT of specifics on this thread on a) who the song influenced, b) what makes it a canonical Garage Rock song, and c) the stylistic differences between it and other Top 40 songs of the time are readily identifiable to, as I said, anyone who listens and compares the Kingsmen recording to, say, the Chiffons, or Paul and Paula, or Paul Anka, or any of the chart hits Pappa listed. Are you seriously telling me you don't hear any difference between the Kingsmen and Elvis Presley?!? Or Neil Sedaka or Sam Cooke or Ray Charles??

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

or, more to the point, name me one other song that was as widely covered, was as big a hit, and was cited as massively influential AND sounds like the Kingsmen's "Louie Louie". If there's nothing special or seminal about it, what beats it on these counts?

(also plz note I'm about the only person on this thread who hasn't personally insulted you and is actually trying to answer yr point, and even so I'm still gettign fairly exasperated)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:03 (eighteen years ago)

Prominent elec. piano rhythm part predates the Seeds' sound and the Seeds are one of the archetypal "garage bands."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:06 (eighteen years ago)

Paul...he was refusing to answer NOT because he didn't have an answer, but JUST TO PISS YOU OFF! If you want to know whether he know his stuff, just stick around for a while. Wait, maybe I don't mean that.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:12 (eighteen years ago)

dan selzer, Well that seems immature and troll-like--not my game. I'm here for intellectual stimulation and entertainment, not grade school nanny nanny boo-boo nipple twisters...

shakey mo, off the top of my head, I'ds say it sounds a bit like sam the sham and the pharoahs stuff...or maybe a honky-fied version of screamin jay hawkins...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

uh, Wooly Bully is TWO YEARS after the Kingsmen's "Louie Louie". Prior to that, the Pharaohs didn't even have any records out, much less any hits.

As a huge fan of Screamin Jay and an owner of several of his early 60s records, his shit doesn't sound anything like "Louie Louie". Certainly not "I Put a Spell on You", much less any of his schmaltzier stuff or r&b workouts.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

and "I Put a Spell on You" was Screamin' Jay's biggest hit by far - or are you thinking of "Constipation Blues" or "Orange Colored Sky" or "Feast of the Mau Maus"? None of which bear any lyrical or musical or structural similarity to the four-chords-and-a-yeller template of garage rock?!?

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:34 (eighteen years ago)

Well, in terms of Screaming Jay I was talking about the singing...the odd, halting/slurred phrasing of the lyrics...sounds like he was drunk (which he was) which is the same 'feel' (oh gee, i used that word) as 'louie, louie'...as for sam the sham, you're right, I jsut checked it out and they formed in 1964 in Dallas (like I said, this was off the top of my head)...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno I don't hear a lot of the psuedo-operatic stuff Screamin Jay included in much other garage rock stuff. Screamin Jay had serious r&b vocal chops which he didn't hesitate to show off - sure he hollered and screamed now n then (that was the gimmick after all), but again no single song of his had the impact that "I Put a Spell On You" had - and that's hardly an archetypal garage rock song. Its a waltz for with a descending blues chord progression.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

Just another thought about the voice comparison, Screamin jay was a baritone, and Jack Ely obviously was not, but they both have the sound of a beligerent drunk, which I woudl guess is not a feel you got from too many top 40 hits of that era...
Also, like I say, I'm not saying the kingsmen 'louie, louie' wasnt garage rock or that it didnt have an influence on 60s rock or that it was stylistically different. But I am saying the issue should be examined before someone like Pappa Zit comes here and declares all of these assertions as gospel. The recording is over 40 years old. Music folks have probablly made this statements about the song before--as Pappa Zit sited--but that doesnt mean we should just blindly accept it. pappa zit might call it 'revisionist history' but I consider it as simply studying the issue more in depth. ANd in the process hopefully learning something from it.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

you can keep casting aspersions on Pappa's assertions, but you have no facts to back up any contrarian opinion. We're over 100+ posts into "examining his position" and he's got a backlog of referenced songs and sources cited (CITED mind you not "sighted" or "sited" - sorry) and a bunch of connections between the Kingsmen and the garage rock tradition have been drawn. Its hard to avoid the impression that you are talking out your ass.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:57 (eighteen years ago)

(also "I Put a Spell on You" is '57, 6 years before the Kingsmen, not sure if that counts as the same "era" - at the time Screamin Jay's hit was largely considered a novelty and even so it barely cracked the Top 40.)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:00 (eighteen years ago)

WHat contrarian opinion do I have? I simply refuse to believe widecast, generic generalizations. Whether they are made by some tool on an internet board or some tool in his state of the union address. Show me the facts.
You are the one that pointed out 'louie louie' was covered by the Kinks and the Beach Boys. But all Pappa Zit did was list a number of songs from that era which were Top 40. And doesnt it go to reason that if none of these other hundreds of songs from the Top 40 had an impact on Rock bands of the 60s, then 'louie louie' wouldnt either? I mean just because a song is Top 40 that doesnt mean its gonna be an influence--and in fact most top 40 songs didnt seem to be much of an influence on 60s Rock bands. So if Pappa Zits argument is that it was an influence just becasue it was Top 40, then I want to know why it was an influence, yet none of these other top 40 songs were.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:28 (eighteen years ago)

"So what I need is what specifically about their cover of it, influenced the Rockers of the 60s?"

BAH BAH BAH BAH-BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH-BAH...

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:33 (eighteen years ago)

HORSE SUSHI!

― mucho (mucho), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:38 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure what your opinion is at all beyond "PappaZit is wrong". Which is the essence of a contrarian opinion.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:40 (eighteen years ago)

Show me the facts.

Is the thread above dissappearing for anyone else other than wagemann?

BTW, it's never been my aim to piss anyone off. When a question has been answered in great detail (so much so that I was accused of tmi), there's nothing left to be said...

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:46 (eighteen years ago)

J is for Joke. Frank Zappa wasn't a fan of all those stripped-down, unpolished bar-band renditions of the repopularized "Louie Louie".

"Well, I was also in bands when 'Louie Louie', before the Kingsmen made it into the joke that everybody recognizes now. 'Louie Louie' used to be a really cool tune, the Richard Berry version of it. It had, y' know, a nice arrangement to it, and a whole different feel to it. It wasn't until The Kingsmen version that it became, y' know, the 'Animal House' joke that it is right now."

[...]

"The only things club owners wanted bands to play then were Wooly Bully, 'Louie Louie' and In The Midnight Hour, because if the band played anything original, nobody would dance to it, and when they don't dance, they don't drink."

― mark 0 (mark 0), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

L is for fuckin LOUIE LOUIE

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 22:58 (eighteen years ago)

uh but first K, which is for the Kingsmen, the Kinks, etc.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 23:00 (eighteen years ago)

this is my favorite Usenet thread of all time

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 23:01 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure what your opinion is at all beyond "PappaZit is wrong". Which is the essence of a contrarian opinion.

I've never said PappaZIts assertion was wrong: that louie louie was all that stuff. I'm just asking him to put his money where his mouse is (btw 'put your money where your mouse is' is a Pew original, alot of people are copying it off me now, but it is indeed one of my own witty inventions...in a couple years from now when everyone is using that one, you can tell them you heard it from the originator--back in the day, if you will--and they will surely be impressed). I for one wasnt even an itch my old man's drawers when 'louie, louie' came out, so obviously I dont have any first hand testimonial to add. But if there is interviews or other things that prove the influence, then that is what PappaZIt should have cited. If there are specifics stylistic differences then he should have explained them. That is all I'm asking.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 23:27 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 23:48 (eighteen years ago)

M is for Mony Mony, a song that is an update of Tommy James' early hit Hanky Panky, both seemingly based on The Kingsmen Louie Louie template

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Thursday, 28 September 2006 00:39 (eighteen years ago)

"The Sudden Ghastly Death of Paul Edward Wagemann"

(by Urge Overkill)

-- nabisco (--...), September 24th, 2006.

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 00:48 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.soimmature.com/images/black_beans_meat_vomit.gif

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 00:52 (eighteen years ago)

http://myspace-889.vo.llnwd.net/00788/98/88/788038889_l.jpg

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 00:54 (eighteen years ago)

M is for Mony Mony, a song that is an update of Tommy James' early hit Hanky Panky, both seemingly based on The Kingsmen Louie Louie template
oh sugar, sugar, that's yummy yummy...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 02:34 (eighteen years ago)

M is also for minor chord, the song's misunderstood secret weapon. come to think of it, M is also for misunderstood.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 28 September 2006 03:11 (eighteen years ago)

M is also for The Mothers, whose guitarist/composer Frank Zappa was fond of disdainfully quoting "Louie Louie", a cool R&B song that had been neanderthalized into a burgeoning rock anthem.

[NP: The Mothers, "Plastic People"]

― mark 0 (mark 0), Thursday, 28 September 2006 06:45 (eighteen years ago)

"(btw 'put your money where your mouse is' is a Pew original, alot of people are copying it off me now, but it is indeed one of my own witty inventions...in a couple years from now when everyone is using that one, you can tell them you heard it from the originator--back in the day, if you will--and they will surely be impressed)"

I INVENTED THE INTERNET!

N is for Noise. It's the weird noises and false starts that give the song such an ad hoc and garage band feel. Their goofs become charming and populist, and invite millions of other budding musicians to think "I can do THAT!" (A garage band being an amatuer band that practices in a garage, PEW. I'm sure if you scoot over to Wikipedia or LexisNexis you can find a properly academic cite for that point).

― js (honestengine), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

I got the scoots :-(

― PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (PappaW, Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:53 (eighteen years ago)

>> M is also for minor chord, the song's misunderstood secret weapon.

Yah, rly. Too many bands just play it A-D-E (or whatever), you gotta have that E minor chord!

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:10 (eighteen years ago)

O is for Karen, just because.

P is for Presley. Not Elvis, but Reg, whose band The Troggs kicked it up a notch with their version of Chip Taylor's "Wild Thing", built, in part, on the duh duh duh-duh duh-duh-duh (etc.) of "Louie Louie", helping create the sense of a lineage for garage rock.

[And P is for PEW, perpetually pwnd. And mercifully silent. As I will be, in regards to the rest of teh alfabets.]

[wot r "teh scoots"?]

― mark 0 (mark 0), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:20 (eighteen years ago)

P is also for "Big Boy Pete," the Olympic's song upon which the Kingsmen based their song about "The Jolly Green Giant."

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:23 (eighteen years ago)

Olympics'

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

Paul you are a major troll

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=PaulEdwardWagemann&btnG=Google+Search

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

It's the weird noises and false starts that give the song such an ad hoc and garage band feel. Their goofs become charming and populist, and invite millions of other budding musicians to think "I can do THAT!" (A garage band being an amatuer band that practices in a garage, PEW. I'm sure if you scoot over to Wikipedia or LexisNexis you can find a properly academic cite for that point).

That's not a bad start, but does that mean that Spike Jones 'Tea for Two' is garage rock as well? I'm not saying your definition isnt PART of the answer though--it's a good start.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

"http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=PaulEdwardWagemann&btnG=Google+Search"

ay caramba

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

http://rocknerd.org/~PaulEdwardWagemann/journal/

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:tglEMoTwCt4J:www.nme.com/boards/printthread.htm%3Ft%3D25740%26pp%3D40+troll+Paul+Edward+Wagemann&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

Hi PaulEdwardWagemann I'm not familiar with ME as it was not very popular

HAHA!

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. All the clues are there! (PappaWheelie 2), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

I rescind all previous attempts at semi-polite engagement

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

He's just someone who's clueless, which is kinda sad and sweet at the same time, but pigheadedness and cluelessness are obnoxious when mixed, which seems to be the case here.

If he's serious about spouting rhetoric regarding Rock history, there's plenty of points above he surely would take note of if it wasn't for being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn (and not even putting much effort into justifying that).

In short, dude's in over his head.

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. All the clues are there mann! (PappaWheelie 2), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

Awwww, you called me sweet...

Well, I clicked onto Mr.Q's link and my question is: So?
I belong to several message boards that deal with Rock as a subject matter. Mostly this is due to the fact that my second book (currently writing) is on the subject matter of Rock. Here is alot of personal experience that will go into the book, but I also need to flesh out certain facts that memory has faded as well as bounce my ideas of others who are into Rock... If that is what I'm being accused of, then I plead guilty as charged and throw my self on the mercy of the Rock-n-Roll court.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

I can't wait to read all the in-depth sightations in your book

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

Holy crap.

I want to say thank you to everyone on this thread for making it possible.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

(And I wish all this knowledge - brung like FedEx - could have appeared on this, one of my very first ILM threads - Who invented rock and roll? - hopefully with the magic of "trackbacks" - if that's working - it kind of does)

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

Ooops, I meant I clicked on Shaker Mo's link--not Mr. Q's...

Mr. Q's link is something entirely different--the subject matter of which really has nothing to do with Rock or this thread or this board for that matter. Not sure why Ms. Q would post that. I guess he's jsut not a very happy person and doesnt have anything better to do with his life than spend it sitting in front of his computer cyber-stalking me...*shrugs* Oh well, different strokes for different folks...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

or not, as the case may be

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

Boogie Woogie is the root of Rock. Specifically, Pinetop Smith in 1928. Pinetop got Cow Cow Davenport signed that same year, sparking a trend.

Before that, it was mostly in the lineage of the Bristol Session[s], Carter Family, and Jimmie Rodgers on one hand, and the novelty of Hawaaiin Cowboys on the other (which I love to no end). Bob Wills and Milton Brown took all of that, and combined it with Boogie Woogie with the specific intentions on making dance music for barn dances, similar to Black juke joints.

But the dance between Hillbilly and R&B continued on (well before Rockabilly). Western Swing morphed [or splintered off] into Hillbilly Boogie during the R&B thing, probably around the time Hank Penny was coming into his own in the early 40's.

R&B began making mock gospel records with juke themes around 1945 with songs like "Who Threw the Whiskey in the Well". [one of the first R&B songs to have the gosepl 2 & 4 clap, creating the "backbeat]

The "rock" element in this lineage was basically in 1949 when a whole host of R&B artists started to syncopate the beat in a rocking style.

Hillbilly Boogie and R&B traded catalog back and forth. The rockist canon has dug only deep enough to cite 1951's Ida Red/Rocket 88 connection, but this was hardly the first, much less all that unique. [better yet, the rockist revisionists keep digging for random songs that have the words rock, or roll, and have some 60's> rock elements in it, as if this overrides the actual history of the genre listed above]

[Alan Freed's] Moondog Coronation Ball - 1952

Elvis & Bill Haley record souped up Hillbilly Boogie (creating the template for Rockabilly) - 1954 [of course, Haley's been working in this direction for the past 3 years, and his 1954 breakthrough was pretty much spot on copy of his 1952 cover of Shake Rattle & Roll]

Blackboard Jungle - 1955 [spread it everywhere, and played it loud over movie theatre speakers, forcing it into your bones]

Elvis signed to RCA - 1956 [official "Elvis mania"]

Dick Clark watered it down with white teen Idols - roughly 1957 [Frankie Avalon, Fabian, etc.]

Payola Scandel shuts down freeform radio jocks - 1959 [possibly considered stage one of Rock becoming institutiolized]

1959 - Motown & Stax formed. Motown has a pop [chart] hit right away with Barrett Strong's Money, followed by [massive success of] The Miracles' "Shop Around" in 1960.

ABC Records and RCA Records decide to start singing Soul groups (Ray Charles, Sam Cooke, et al) and crossing them over to pop[/rock] charts in 1960.

It took The Kingsmen's "Louie Louie" in 1963 to put this 60's garage sound on the map to create this lineage of the 60's rock canon. [this popularized some elements that were going on beneath the surface such as Duane Eddy, Dick Dale, Link Wray, but in a amatuerish way that emphasized RAWNESS, unlike Duane Eddy and Dick Dale's virtuoso styles]

...

-- PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (evieandjo...), September 25th, 2006. (later)

So maybe we can clear the air about 60's "rock" then. Louie Louie was cited as it's the first big hit I can think of with any garage feel [amatuerish and raw], although I wasn't suggesting this was the first hit of the decade by any means.

Soul

Brill Building/Girl Group/60's teen Hit Factory thing:

Surf-Pop

Songs that sound like the 1950's to me (which is highly debatable)

The leftover misc. The Four Seasons rule, partly due to Bob Crewe:

Garage Rock

(1963) Kingsmen - Louie Louie (trashed out garage)

Still seems to stand alone as the first big garage hit.

Surfin' Bird was 1964 combination of Surf and Garage-y-ness, but by then, the 60's sound was established as Beatlemania was full on.

-- PappaWheelie demands you to ''only pick any'' (evieandjo...), September 25th, 2006. (later)

And saying Surfin' Safari wasn't Rock makes no sense as they ripped off Chuck Berry enough to give him writing credits (!), regardless if you don't consider Phil Spector or The Four Seasons Rock.

I insist that not calling them Rock comes from a revisionsit standpoint...as if that which makes mid-60's to mid-70's Rock defines Rock, and whatever that came before those eras that fits into _that_ mold makes the cut. Time and evolution don't work like that.

Can we shut this down now?

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. All the clues are there mann! (PappaWheelie 2), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

PEW, I hope you have several proofreaders on board for your next book.

― mucho (mucho), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

― Ruud Comes To Haarvest (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

(not sure if that was aimed at me, but I do realize that twice on this thread, I used "it's" incorrectly due to fast typing/thinking)

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

P is also for "Big Boy Pete," the Olympic's song upon which the Kingsmen based their song about "The Jolly Green Giant."

P is also for pogo stick, as in "jack squat on a pogo stick," my new favorite insult (search upthread for more info).

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

Are your initials PEW, PappaWheelie?

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

shit is this like a "fight club" thing?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

Wait is Pappa Wheelie PEW? No way.

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

first rule of nerd club is don't talk about nerd club

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

http://grimsb.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/trust.jpg

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

No, he just thought the proofreading remarks were for him, when clearly they were for PEW.

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

Or WERE they?

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

Pappa, that remark was meant for Paul, and it's about more than the occasional typo. His posts are painful to read, but I don't have to tell you this.

― mucho (mucho), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

It's like he read the first two items in the "How To Be A Rock Critic" FAQ about having controversial, stand-the-old-way-of-thinking-on-its-head opinions and presenting them in a typographically unpleasing fashion.

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

Ruud I think yu are giving the guy too much credit--I don't think he can read.

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

In my own mind, I'm famous for typos, so, you know...

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

typos--this is a freakin interenet message board, not a graduate thesis...just take the stick out of your patootie and go with it...complaining about grammar and typos on an internet board is possiboy the most boring thing in the world...nest to one of Pappa ZIts long ass-meaningless lists of '60s rock that actually sounds like 50s rock and soul music that replaced rock ont he top 40, but that he insists on catagorizing as Rock anyway becasue...geez, there really is no reason for that, but he does it anyone because he likes lists and he isnt capable of going into any more depth on a topic than simply answering with a long boring list..."

BTW chris montez's 'lets dance' pre-dates 'louie, louie' and that sounds just about as garage-y as 'louie louie'...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

Asshole, I said it's about more than the occasional typo. Your posts are muddy,and unclear and really give me a fucking headache. Pappa's posts are usually clear, concise and informative. I don't even like lists, but I enjoyed reading his and thought he did a good job of backing up his argument. Why he even bothered to get into it with a befuddled moron like you, I don't know.

― mucho (mucho), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:06 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry for calling you an asshole. Maybe I should have used "a horses patootie."

― mucho (mucho), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

appology accepted...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:13 (eighteen years ago)

*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

possiboy nest to on

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:31 (eighteen years ago)

Wait! Where is the love for garage pioneer Chris Montez, people?

http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~eneman/MUSIC/obaka/obakapict/chris.jpg

― mark 0 (mark 0), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

Do you have any proof Marek 0 if that is your real name? I'm talking about rockism herwe and what's I'vw e walways found is *fart joke* PappaZit does not have inderstand the internet.s patooitie on you? Do you have any mp3's of this so I may make and evalutaionry? You are full of empty general genreic generalitztions. General Ppoop I shouild call you!

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

**Obiviously, that was my Paul Edward Muffinhead impression**

― Mr. Que (Mr.Que), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:41 (eighteen years ago)

Obiviously.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

obviviously dublicious

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

mark o, the Montez makes the Kingsmen look like choir boys:
[IMG]http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h175/PaulEdwardWagemann/kingsmen.jpg[/IMG]

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Thursday, 28 September 2006 23:56 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, but you're comparing what is likely an early-60's pic of The Kingsmen (early-60's band in suits and ties shocka!!!) with a circa '66/'67 pic of Montez.

But it's not really about the photos; Montez came into his own (such as it was) as an Alpert-produced balladeer, a few years after the lo-fi roller-rinky-dinkitudinous (but still classic) "Let's Dance", which left a somewhat less-than-lasting impression on subsequent rock, compared to "Louie Louie".

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 29 September 2006 00:15 (eighteen years ago)

[IMG]http://i64.photobucket.com/longlist/meaningless/patootie/horsesushi/pappazit.jpg[/IMG]

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Friday, 29 September 2006 00:25 (eighteen years ago)

but the songs dont sound that much different. To my ears, the main difference is the production value. They both sound like drunken frat house sing-a-longs...maybe louie louie sounds a bit more drunken, but that's becasue the words are unintelligible at times...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Friday, 29 September 2006 00:29 (eighteen years ago)

TS: louie louie as a million cover versions vs. Let's Dance as covered by the Silicon Teens.

NO CONTEST.

Chris Montez's Call Me PWNS all other music anyway.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 29 September 2006 00:39 (eighteen years ago)

Dan, c'mon now, Chris Montez's Face that I love ranks on my last.fm as seriously, like, top 5 of all time I think.

Uh, oh yeah, LOUIE LOUIE AND SHIT!! FUCK!!

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Friday, 29 September 2006 00:41 (eighteen years ago)

Oh shit, top 3

1 The Modern Folk Quartet – This Could Be the Night 29
2 Alvin Robinson – Down Home Girl 27
3 Chris Montez – The Face I Love 25

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Friday, 29 September 2006 00:43 (eighteen years ago)

Toto, I don't think we're in the garage anymore.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 29 September 2006 00:44 (eighteen years ago)

EVIDENCE AQUIRED, ABORT MISSION

-- PappaWheelie has no answers to any question that requires actual thought (evieandjo...), September 27th, 2006. (later)

The new PEW thread is 1,000x funnier

― PappaWheelie puts out again and gives up again and puts out again and gives (Pap, Friday, 29 September 2006 00:53 (eighteen years ago)

if reincarnation is real, i can see papawheelie as a mad, majestic monk in the middle ages, preaching a glorious crusade to the holy land...or in this case, "garage feel" land

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 29 September 2006 03:07 (eighteen years ago)

see Pappawheelie, the fact that you and I love Chris Montez makes it all the more obvious why we DJ euro-disco together so well.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 29 September 2006 03:20 (eighteen years ago)

"1 The Modern Folk Quartet – This Could Be the Night 29"

ah this song is SO AWESOME

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, everything that Pet Sounds is and a little more

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. The clues are there man! (PappaWheelie 2), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey, are you on lastfm? Or any other community at all? I sent you a friend request on one particular community using the given email, but your profile was not developed and you've not responded.

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. The clues are there man! (PappaWheelie 2), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

"Let's Dance", which left a somewhat less-than-lasting impression on subsequent rock, compared to "Louie Louie".

TS: louie louie as a million cover versions vs. Let's Dance as covered by the Silicon Teens.

b-b-but Ramones cover "let's dance" on The Most Important Album of All Time! that david bowie cover sux though

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

(oh btw no I'm not on lastfm or anything else really, my band has a myspace page but that's about it - ILX is all the internet I can handle most of the time)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

"The More I See You" by Chris Montez was The First Song at my wedding! He rules.

I never knew he did Let's Dance though! I are stupid.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey, band name?

Chris Montez at AMG

One of the leading rockers in the Los Angeles Hispanic community after the tragic death of Ritchie Valens, Chris Montez later mellowed out under the tutelage of Herb Alpert and tallied several MOR-style hits. His first smash was on Monogram in 1962, "Let's Dance." It was a grinding rocker with roller-rink organ. Montez changed his attitude after signing with A&M. With Alpert producing, Montez adopted an easygoing approach on "Call Me," "The More I See You," and "Time After Time," all solid sellers in 1966. The formula quickly faded, however, and his final chart entry came the following year with "Because of You."

Hispanic Rock from the 50's-early 60's relly was a monster of it's own kind, with each head being incredibly different than the other (Ritchie Valens, The Premiers, Montez, etc.)

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. The clues are there man! (PappaWheelie 2), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

The Plugz...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

huh I've never heard of this Montez guy, must investigate...

(btw - http://www.myspace.com/thesocietyofrockets)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

there's a 2 volume "sound of east l.a." comp on dionysus that is blindingly, mindblowingly great.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, Fritz was waiting for someone to mention that Ramones cover.

― Ruud Comes to Haarvest (Ken L), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drc900/c924/c9245094bv6.jpg

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

added to wishlist!

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. The clues are there man! (PappaWheelie 2), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

you'll dig it. Worth the price of admission for Las Dillys Sisters' version of Good Guys Don't Wear White alone.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

Word, not to mention the Mixtures stuff.

― mucho (mucho), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not trying to be a contrarian, but I am skeptical that having a bazillions shltty half-cocked wannabe bands cover a covered song doestn neccesarily equate to that covered song being a huge influence on Rock. If a band like the Ramones covers a song, then that's saying something. Unless its surfing bird or something else that's kinda stupid.

So heres a question. What is the best cover of the Kingsmen version of 'louie louie' and what is the best cover of Montez's 'lets dance' (btw I'm assuming Montez's tune was an original)...

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

dood either go away or be funnier

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

ROFL at the following " shltty half-cocked wannabe bands":
The Beach Boys
The Beau Brummels
Black Flag
DRI
Jack Ely
The Fall
The Feelies
The Flamin Groovies
The Fat Boys
Iggy and the Stooges
Jan & Dean
Joan Jett and the Blackhearts
The Kinks
Julie London
The Maytals
Motorhead
Robert Plant
The Pretenders
Otis Redding
Paul Revere and the Raiders
Skid Row
The Sonics
The Standells
The Surfaris
Thee Headcoats
Johnny Thunders
The Troggs
Ike & Tina Turner
The Ventures
The Wailers
The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band
Barry White
Johnny Winter

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

(best cover version = Sherman Helmsley's)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:21 (eighteen years ago)

helmsley's half-cocked

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

for every decent band that covered 'louie louie' there are 20 mullet-haired frat bands that crapped all over it...
You know its true.

― Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

"mullet-haired frat bands" = true rockists

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

paul...on the other thread you're praising rockers for rocking and getting stoned and leering at girls from their camaros, but on this thread you're dissing mullet-haired frat bands?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

thus, fulfilling shakey request to be a funnier troll

(shakey, if you've seen animal house, you've heard montez's let's dance)

― PappaWheelie burried Paul. The clues are there man! (PappaWheelie 2), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

john paul and george cover bill monroe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPROIttiRh8

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 6 October 2006 21:45 (eighteen years ago)

john's not on that.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 6 October 2006 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Many sleepless nights and he revives this hijacked thread to show us The Beatles like Elvis's répertoire?

Before you put too much more effort into it, I can give you one more tip. Paul McCartney appears on the recent Sun Records documentary too. You heard it here first!

― The PappaWheelie Story: Half Brain, Half Soul, All Mouth (on sale now) (PappaWhe, Friday, 6 October 2006 22:16 (eighteen years ago)

sorry, meant to say ringo paul and george.
keep it up papa.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 6 October 2006 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

What a strange thread this is.

I think it's nearly impossible to desecrate Louie Louie.

― Ice Cream Electric (Ice Cream Electric), Friday, 6 October 2006 23:26 (eighteen years ago)

What a strange thread this is.
I think it's nearly impossible to desecrate Louie Louie.
-- Ice Cream Electric (docido...), October 6th, 2006. (later)

louie louie? gimme a break.

-- Squirrel_Police (goblinatri...), September 25th, 2006.

― The PappaWheelie Story: Half Brain, Half Soul, All Mouth (on sale now) (PappaWhe, Saturday, 7 October 2006 04:06 (eighteen years ago)

keep it up papa.

-- Squirrel_Police (goblinatri...), October 6th, 2006. (later)

Confuse your actions with others reactions much?

― PappaWheelie: Giving out breaks to the needy since September 25th, 2006 (PappaWh, Saturday, 7 October 2006 04:18 (eighteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.