Taking Sides: Echo & the Bunnymen VS. The Cure.

no, hang on. echo and the bunnymen. yes. got to be.

hang on. no. let me think.

bastard!

gonna go with the cure. yes. don't ask me to explain, i'll only change my mind again.

my heart, however, tells me to pick EATB -- as an inverse to what baaderoni just said, ian mccullough spoke more incisively to ME than robert smith did. musically, they were a little chillier and more grandiose than the cure -- which suits me just fine. i listen more to my crystal days box-set than my join the dots one. and bunnymen-love pisses off miccio more than cure-love :-p

alex, i don't think that it's a matter of there being "little love for the bunnymen" so much as it's "i prefer the cure to the bunnymen." which is telling in and of itself -- EATB were always the odd man out of the 80s depressing-brit band bunch.

There are SO many early Echo moments I can't live without. You think I have no love for something like "Crocodiles" or "Over the Wall" or "Villiers Terrace" or "Gods Will Be Gods" or etc., please. (Not that you were saying that, Alex -- but perspective here is good!)

This might be what sinks it actually. I think that it might be the combination of what feels to me like the cheapness and crassness of that type of 80s pop crossed with the ultra-romantic dramatic ambitions of the music that seems so gross to me.

I know I like lots of things that are just as crass and cheesy in their own way.

i do kinda like "don't stop believin'" you know ;-)

yeah, esp. since the cure and EATB were an antidote to journey et. al. when all three were going concerns i think that this is OTM. i used to think that this was more grounded in 80s youth culture (think breakfast club and pretty in pink), though apparently those divisions haven't really died. the best that i can explain it is, that what might strike one person as "crass," "cheesy," self-indulgent et. al. would appeal to a somewhat lonely misfit suburban 80s teenage kid (like myself) as an interesting alternative to all that. think "subdivisions" for anglophiles (a song that i also love and kinda flits w/ the same vibe). it just kinda went hand-in-hand w/ growing up, discovering yer self, yer identity, etc.

Believe it or not, though, I'm inclined to think that the Bunnymen were actually the more versatile of the two. Yes, the Cure dabbled in a myriad different styles (from spritely pop, to po-faced gloom to danceable bop to ponderous doom), but in the end, it always sounds like the Cure -- no real surprises. Despite Sundar's impression ("It just feels like the cheesiest, drippiest music I've ever heard"), the Bunnymen were capable of being absolutely feral...no drippy cheese to be found. Moments like the live rendition of "Do It Clean" and/or the absolutely amazing b-side "Rollercoaster" or the afore-alluded "Thorn of Crowns" catch the band in such sharp, angsty frenzy that to get to close to them while they're performing means you'd risk getting lacerated. The Cure, by comparison, usually sound pretty blunt. The Cure -- for all of their glacial splendor, always seemed to lack a certain edge. I also think that apart from a couple of tracks on Wish, they should've hung it up after Disintegration.

I'm assuming the version on Songs To Learn & Sing isn't the live one you speak of, since it sounds far too much like "Incense & Peppermints" for me to worry about laceration. I like both songs though.

This is completely correct, even down to the 'couple of tracks on Wish'.

"Plastic Passion"
"World War"
"Primary"
"Doubt"
The entire _Pornography_ album
"Give Me It"
"Bananafishbones"
"The Baby Screams"
"Screw"
"The Kiss"
"Torture"
"The Snakepit"
"Like Cockatoos"
"All I Want"
"Shiver And Shake"
"Fight"
"Last Dance"
"Fascination Street"
"Disintegration"
"Open"
"From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea"
"Cut"
"End"
"Want"
"Trap"
"Watching Me Fall"
"39"
"Bloodflowers"
"Lost"
"Labyrinth"
"Anniversary"
"Never"

It's Mac, you divs.

Not. Even. Close.

im gonna pick the cure(shokah). but to be honest, i never paid enough attention to Echoe way back when. which means i ve got more of it now to digest.

"Plastic Passion"
"World War"
"Primary"
"Doubt"
The entire _Pornography_ album
"Give Me It"
"Bananafishbones"
"The Baby Screams"
"Screw"
"The Kiss"
"Torture"
"The Snakepit"
"Like Cockatoos"
"All I Want"
"Shiver And Shake"
"Fight"
"Last Dance"
"Fascination Street"
"Disintegration"
"Open"
"From The Edge Of The Deep Green Sea"
"Cut"
"End"
"Want"
"Trap"
"Watching Me Fall"
"39"
"Bloodflowers"
"Lost"
"Labyrinth"
"Anniversary"
"Never"

-- Dan Perry '08 (djperr...), October 18th, 2004."

File under: "Posts you knew were Dan before scrolling halfway down."

Mac has way better taste in yer actual music than RS, although I rate the Cure as pretty much perfect in their own universe until 1986. RS has been doing the chatshow rounds lately (HE WAS ON T4) and managed to be charming but that's exactly what he is in that situation.

I've also interviewed both of them. Maccccccch might as well have sunglasses mirrored on the inside, he is so self-regarding (but he is also blind as a bat). He would not stop talking about the Manics nicking the idea of wearing camo from him (although according to Julian Cope, Bill Drummond ripped it off the Teardrops for his charges, the Bunnymen). Will Sergeant was MUCH nicer. Last time I saw Mac he was off his tits (and showed his claimed third nipple to Doomie) at Death Disco and there is a reason he has been nicknamed Shake and Vac. Robert Smith is very coy and platonic-flirty and we wound up teasing the fuck out of one another on both occasions. At one party he waved me over quite excitedly, gave me a glass of champagne and introduced me to Billy Mackenzie (sob).

I think both groups complemented each other very well, and both sides would say this quite readily.

Only one small point to address:

Mac has way better taste in yer actual music than RS

But RS never got involved in a Ocean Colour Scene/Space/Spice Girls travesty, so it all balances out.

Because Robert Smith is not Liam Gallagher, he didn't feel like giving that title to The Cure :-)

Robert Smith gets extra points for his tenure with Siouxsie.

And, while I'm at it, where's the love for the Noel Burke-era Bunnymen (Reverberation)?

Precisely.

i've seen echo and the bunnymen live -- matter of fact, they were one of the 1st concerts i saw live (in 1988, when they played at rutgers). they were pretty damn ON that night, even if they were in "lips like sugar"-mode (as opposed to "cutter"/"do it clean" mode). i even like their recent live at liverpool cd -- even w/t defreitas and w/ the ravages of time, they still are a mighty live force.

sadly, i have never seen the cure live. this is definitely something i would like to do whilst i still can but alas.

no sooner posted than i remember that twas i who created this thread on their concert disc. and a damn fine cd it is!

And, while I'm at it, where's the love for the Noel Burke-era Bunnymen (Reverberation)?

twas i who also created this one -- echo and the bunnymen, "reverberation" -- so, what does ILM think?. have a blast, if you must ;-)

he also bought me a drink and invited me up to liverpool next time i'm around.

suzy we should hang out again... hassle popstars and demand to see their nipples.

I'm not sure either have very good taste in music. Both liked the godawful Doors and doesn't Bob hang out with Blink 182 nowadays? (Although he does like Electrelane apparently.)

I think its a kind of unfair taking sides anyway as both bands mean too many different things to too many different people, rather Cure vs Joy Division/New Order and Bunnymen vs Teardrops Explodes.

"It's like taking the most archaic and melodramatic tropes from 19th century Romantic poetry and the corniest little-girl plays on words, delivering them in a stylized sob, and setting it all to ultra-saccharine over-'pretty' ringing guitars and obvious string arrangements"

Thing is, you can reduce just about any band you want to a few tropes. Bob Dylan: "It's like taking bad Rimbaud poetry delivered in a stylized moan and setting it all to corny folk arrangements" bla bla bla.

Also, I might as well throw this in: I've seen the Cure four times (Kiss Me... tour, twice on the Disintegration tour [oops, sorry, purists...the Prayer Tour...] and last on the Wild Mood Swings tour). While the music was always great (and that's the real point, right?) it should be noted that as a live band, THE CURE ARE A COLOSSAL SNORE!. The Bunnymen, at least, created the visual impression that some effort was being put into it.

That said, Simon Gallup has always looked like he should be playing in a different band.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...) (webmail), October 19th, 2004.

Apparently he was openly cringing through 'Lovecats' when they played it at that MTV thing not long ago.

Your spiritual compatriot Matt Maxwell is a massive fan of it, and would urge you to see it sharpish. I would say this too.

It's a cringe-making kind of song, isn't it?

Good lord no, it's merry and the video is great.

(xpost HAHAHA Didn't Phil also produce _Pornography_???)

Is this not in fact the point? It's giddy and goofy.

Meanwhile The Cure have just plodded stolidly on.

Each to his own. Goth camp never really did it for me!

But so did the Sultans of Ping FC. *hides*

Actually does the credit for all that go more to the band or to Drummond and his habit of snorting ley lines?

Goth camp never really did it for me!

What goth ISN'T camp? The best ones are those who get the joke.

(xpost Meanwhile The Cure have just plodded stolidly on. I Cannot get behind this sentiment AT ALL. Echo may have been a fantastic live band but I never saw or heard them and the idea that their live performances would be THAT MUCH BETTER than their recorded output, which by and large makes no impression on me, sets off gigantic "these guys suffer from 10,000 Maniacs Syndrome" warning bells for me and prejudices me against liking them.)

Either you are joking without a smile on your face or you are just plain wrong (I'd prefer the former approach).

Er, I would tend to think the more obvious breaking point would be between Pornography and "Let's Go to Bed," at least in terms of musical approach.

I am struggling to explain what it is that EATB did/do that is so special. I think with the Mac/Will/Les/PDF line-up it was a case of having quite inventive drums and especially guitar, yet still all working within the bounds of the song. All their best songs have great hooks, yet sound unforced and effortless. And that exactly complements Mac - swaggering, but never looking or sounding like he cared *too much*. I just think the Cure sound like it's all a bit of an effort.

After the Top/Ocean Rain I can't really see what the two groups had in common at all, (a similar fanbase maybe?)

Yeah, the Smashing Pumpkins, for one, were really damned obscure here in the nineties in the US. As was Jane's Addiction.

Adam Clayton of U2 in --- was it Blender or Q -- recently commented that some of his bass parts sounded particularly Bunnymenesque...following up with some quip about "going back to our roots" or some shit.

They made not admit it (well, by now they would), but if you've ever heard "Wasteland" by the Mission, you should be able to pick out their obvious reverence for the Bunnymen ("Over the Wall" in particular).

i will have to dig out my mission records and have a listen

This is the thread where you post in the style of Wayne Hussey

Aw, Doomie, am mad busy until the end of next week but after then, yes yes fun. Have to send an invite to AMcG for the crazy thing I'm working on that I'm not talking about here. Mail at my Yahoo address, suzy(surname)@yahoodotcodotuk. Any probs, mail Ed!

First time I interviewed RS I was (just, still) dating a certain Creation artiste whose 4AD band had opened for the Cure in Edinburgh in the wayback. Nick had told me about this juxtaposition before I went to meet RS and we were shooting the shit in between questions and in the middle of the bit where they ask about 'you' they asked if I had a boyfriend and when I said who it was, RS and Perry started running around, yelling 'her boyfriend's a pervert! She's shagging a pervert!'

Back in the days when my friends and I used to hang out near stage doors at soundcheck time (couldn't go to ID shows etc so we connived to watch soundchecks, also allowed us to meet bands ) we met both groups and the Bunnymen brought New Order with them in '88. I cannot BELIEVE Dan missed that show.

robert smith stands in for john peel on his radio show sometime this week btw. as does siouxie: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/alt/johnpeel/index.shtml

Dan wasn't allowed to go to shows until 1991 because Dan's parents were overprotective and paranoid. (I could depress everyone and tell WHY they were overprotective but suffice to say I lived far enough out of town that sneaking out of the house was not an option.)

Maybe I'll check out those other E&tB albums. If they're anything like what Alex makes them sound like, they'd have to be pretty damn different from what I've heard.

If it was based on singles only, then The Cure win by a furlong and two lengths.

I think you might have fun checking out the various Interpol threads in the archives for possible answers to that question. ;-)

here is that live version of "do it clean" that Alex in NYC referred to a decade ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KCSQk5ZvSA

E&TB were indeed a fearsome live band ca 1980-84, as evidenced above.

this is a tough question! burning incandescent for four years VS in-for-the-long-haul. a pleasant dilemma.

I like Echo & The Bunnymen, but The Cure have always meant more to me.

Cure all the way and I love both bands. But yeah, Cure.