Jess Harvell: hates noise dudes and hippies, has no point (NOT SAFE FOR WORK - mod)

It didn't make me think "noise dudes are a bunch of fucking morons" or "wolf eyes are totally shit". If anything such a dissection of a band is worth A THOUSAND beaming positive reviews. If someone else wrote a crap, SHIT positive review of Wolf Eyes would it make the Noize Board? Even if it was dire and said absolutely nothing?

One of the main things the article does, implicitly or otherwise, is make Wolf Eyes seem like an important band at the moment, and noise like a sort of cultural battleground. As far as I'm concerned that's the most important thing for any genre or style of music, once there's no argument about something it's dead in the water and a piece of shit.

I mean suspend your liking for the band for one second, is Jess REALLY just doing a hack job here? I don't think so.

As far as "maleness" goes, the stereotype of the noise scene IS dudely. It's just a stereotype, but . . . I didn't see many females at the Merzbow/Masonna show at the Bottom of the Hill 7 years ago, or the Hafler Trio/Phauss/Bilting Karkowski show at the Kennel Club 15 years ago. Those of us who have been following noise long enough to be "jaded" might reach a conclusion or two, hee hee.

Not sure about the repeated WIRE/Keenan obsession though, methinks it doth protest too much.

about 5xpost

Next up: Locusts swarm Senegal
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041019/i/r2053995893.jpg

Even his pokes at the 'scene' aren't so harsh: white, middlebrow, and predominantly male aren't inherently bad things and they are fairly accurate.

multiple xpost

there is alot of anti-writing sentiment here.

. . . except it IS a positive review.

is that a jab?

Find threads from I Love Everything, containing faggot, by user ex machina*.

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And if you do what makes it a "jab"?

x-post anti "ILX" person in anonymous shocker

-- Kevin Gilchrist (KevinGil14...)

How is a BLATENTLY obvious reference to me an attack on 'noise'

Okay, Jon, maybe not an attack on noise. If it's just that that worries you, maybe you have a point - but I don't think it was an attack, and only Jess can tell us if it is.

The Boy Noise Supremacists
1983 (A Christgau Should I Turn To Be)

A HORSE IS A HORSE IS A HORSE.

There is a point to that reference, anyhow: as an example of the continuing presence of pigfuckery in noise culture.

!!!

So, in retrospect, Jess's article really is a promotion for the "controversy" over Wolf Eye's signing and then some, along with the piece being a disguised praising of the album, and surely making Sub Pop happy, all in all. The piece plays both sides of the coin: people with shorter attention spans who'll hate Jess for the piece and go out and defend (and further publicize) Wolf Eyes, and those who never heard of them but now have a sick fascination with wanting to check them out. Win Win. Except for insecure potheads who used to listen to a lot of ska, I guess.

that said I think Jon should be flattered rather than hysterically defensive. His dickery got referenced in the Seattle Weekly! Hey!

Dan, Wolf Eyes (at least on the Sub Pop album) sounds like a guy screaming into a distorted mic with some thudding and static behind it. You might dig it. I find it oddly soothing.

haha, gee, funny that.

(but what about T. Tauri and The Gang Wizard? How come they're not on Sub Pop?)

Hahahahaha!

Dan, they're kind of GOTH!

now, who was THAT a reference to?

Dan, Wolf Eyes (at least on the Sub Pop album) sounds like a guy screaming into a distorted mic with some thudding and static behind it. You might dig it. I find it oddly soothing.

-- miccio (anthonyisrigh...)

yeah but theres also songs that sound like static and thudding that don't have any screaming into the mic. be fair, anthony!

Anthony, they are very energetic live but they're not Alice Cooper. No costumes.

(can I please only post to ILM through an intermediate?)

Another successful convert!

I heard they have a mace!

I believe this was the dreaded October Surprise Mr. Harvell hinted at prior to his departure.

-- gygax! (gygax0...), November 10th, 2004 3:57 PM. (gygax!) (later)

*puffs*

as I said, what's there to be annoyed about? the fact that a reference to people using the word "faggot" in the midst of a well written article jumps out like a fat ugly boil???

EGO GO POP... FZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz *poot*

Also, I know nothing about Noize music and I'm basically confused by the Noize Dudes - I sense something vaguely sinister about it, but Adam posts there so it can't be all bad! That said, I find it hard to call Jess' piece a positive review. My initial read through made me think it was an indictment of noise culture (with quite personal and specific criticisms) with grudging acknowledgement that he likes some of the music. It did make me more curious about the music (and what might be wrong with the people who listen to it), but I'd hardly call it "positive".

It's certainly very well written and describes a complex reaction to the music/culture. I heart and miss that f*cker. Can we get a bear pic up in this bitch?

what do you think the thousands of people who have no idea who you are or what ILX is think when they read that sentence? Is it about you to them? Plainly it's not, cos that's not possible. I wouldn't worry.

Ronan, there are only so many crowded msg boards were people talk about noise. Only so many that Jess probably frequents or did frequent. Just because Jon is paranoid, doesn't mean somebody isn't talking about him!

Bitch never got in my pants no matter how hard I tried so I dunno about that.

Right, sure, do you think Jess doesn't think about the fact that reception forms the very existence of almost any piece of art, be it a review or a record or whatever? It obviously works on several levels, none more valid than the others. As a reference to Jon may be one interpretation, for those who know Jon and ILX.

However once again I ask you, how is it a "jab" at Jon? Or how is it a cruel reference??

Then what?

And this is making a very big assumption about the object of that line, at that.

Again, none of this speaks to its validity as a piece of journalism.

I don't see how that matters. Jess mentions Wolf Eyes' fan base were they more interested in introspection than shouting "faggot" on a crowded message board. and Jon assumes that while Jess is targeting a certain demographic of the "noise scene" or whatever, he is thinking specifically of Jon. That's how I read it as well, knowing they've both been vocal presences here. Do Seattle commuters know about ILX and Jon Williams? Most likely not. Does that mean it's not about Jon?

Dan S., suppose Jess delurks and says "Yes, I was thinking of Jon when I wrote that line in the piece.", whether true or not.

Then what?

Then nothing! I was simply stating that if he was thinking of Jon when he wrote that, why deny it?

I'm not defending Jon's right to call people Faggot, which really sucks and should only be used amongst good friends, and/or actual homosexuals, or to take great offense at the article, just his right in recognizing that comment most-likely refers to him.

Ronan, I never said it was wrong of Jess to use the line, I just think Jon shouldn't be attacked for thinking it's about him.

Well, he denied it. Anyone want to prosecute?

I just think Jon shouldn't be attacked for thinking it's about him.

I agree. His reaction for thinking it's him, however, is ripe for comedy though.

xx-post

jess writes an article, in which he positively describes two very different records. jess dresses up said article in angry digressions and jabs at both "hippy" culture and "noise" culture, as though it's possible to separate music from the culture it comes from. it's not. it's a very blase and pop-ist approach to separate the two.

furthermore, jess seems very ignorant of said scenes from what he says in the article. that is personal opinion, based on my experiences with noise/hippy jam out crap, and clearly i haven't had a conversation with jess about this.

anyway, all of you faggots should eat a bowl of dick. kthx.

Does he mean "hanging out in his mom's basement?"

http://www.mcwdn.org/Geometry/ObtuseAngle.GIF

hahahahaha!!! who is this joker, anyways?
love
otto

Things like this: His claim that it's very white, for example, then proceeds to mention Merzbow, not to mention Japanese noise in general. It's like saying "jazz is black;" it's not about openness or segregation, it's just about WHO PLAYS THE MUSIC. Further, he disses Kenan and then quotes him, apparently to drive home his point about noise's masculinity. Maybe Jess should listen to Merzbow's records himself and make a judgement rather than relying on the judgement of someone he clearly disagrees with. This is to say nothing of the fact that Kenan is ALSO off the mark in regard to Merzbow (though I don't know what the specific album in question is); the implication that noise is just a series of climaxes is totally wrong, especially in the case of someone like Merzbow who definitely knows how to drone the fuck out...

god, it's just.. i could go for fucking days on this.

forever forever (and happier for it)

we should both go on a longer hiatus and concentrate on TFM dude

also, I think I might get to review Wolf Eyes for popmatters, any suggestions from anyone about ways to approach this band and its fans?

Abu Ghraib?

minus anything disturbing

I don't get it Scott, nothing about Wolf Eyes reminds me of that. I'd probably write about how when I was a kid, I used to play with this machine in my mom's phonetics lab where I could loop and distort my voice and watch the waves go up and down.

That's yer opening. Then just have at it!

(x-post yeah I knew there was composition)

just my take. i dunno. the sonics don't transmit that kind of stuff.

the description you used to read a few years ago of wolf eyes was something along the lines of "negative approach + throbbing gristle + king tubby." there's less space in their recent stuff though, so that kinda changes things.

this track is a fucking treat... smoke weed and listen to it yezaaaa!!!!!

dude that is SICK

Fun as hell. A tape of that would have been great.

Hey, those tour CDRs are great!

The king is still Muslimgauze.

Mix of each, I guess. I'd say it comes from punk/hardcore/metal/industrial, but there are certain noise artists like Brutum Fulmen who approach it VERY academically. Or there's Karlheinz, whose name is a homage to stockhausen but his music is very "from the gut" and intense--gives more the feeling of black flag than cage or branca. it really varies. there's a very strong DIY feeling attached to it, coming I guess from american hardcore.

brian chippendale's favorite record is tago mago.

some of them aren't wearing underwear

1. Alvin Lucier – Bird And Person Dyning/The Duke Of York (Cramps) – Pretty uncompromising experimental avant-garde electronics; Lucier and others from the Cramps' Nova Musicha series (Pauline Oliveiros, Walter Marchetti, Robert Ashley et al.) were a major influence to early Whitehouse.

2. Yoko Ono – Fly (Apple) – Love the whole gatefold cover, the music and arty presentation, one of the very few music albums I'm proud to own.

3. Langley Schools Project – Innocence & Despair (Bar/None) – Peter Sotos discovered this outrageous album of a school choir singing 60s and 70s pop songs, and surprisingly enjoyable to listen to it is too; 'we are your friends' indeed.

4. The Gerogerigegege – Live Greatest Hits (Vis A Vis Audio Arts) – An old man masturbating live on stage to a cheesy drum machine must be a classic moment of performance art.

5. V/A – Death Row Greatest Hits (Death Row) – In particular disc 1, this is amazing poetry and brilliantly produced.

6. Peter Sotos – Buyer's Market (AWB) – Transcends music. A true masterpiece.

7. Cro-Magnon – Cro-Magnon (ESP) – Album from the 60s (on the same label as the original Manson Family album). When I started listening to this around 1979, it filled my head with some of the incredible possibilities that music could offer with a leap of imagination.

8. Richard Bandler – Ecstasy Twins (LaValle Associates) – Bandler is the founder of neurolinguistic programming and it's always well worth hearing the entertaining and educational things he has to say (ignore the imitations).

9. Consumer Electronics – Teenage Nuremberg (RRR) – Contrary to popular legend here's a 14-year-old Philip Best single-handedly inventing all-out noise in 1981 (while Merzbow was stuck in his bedroom trying to emulate the abstract NWW on cheap cassettes). The Japanese noise style started much later in the 80s than most people realise.

10. Various Artists – The Best Of Italo Disco Volume VII (ZYX) – The best of the series, wonderful; there's nothing like Italo-style HiNRG – you can almost smell the amyl nitrate, I've played it to death.

-- Ian John50n (dr.carl.saga...) (webmail), November 11th, 2004 10:35 PM. (orion) (later) (link)

what if you use a DELAY pedal

there's an assload of people from all sides of the coin. that's what jarred me about the piece. i don't know locker room jams really. i know plenty of girls into it. etc etc. the most extremely punishing band i ever saw was 4 girls. i dunno.

but hey... everybody's got their thing.
m.

(How important is volume in all of this? I remember reading Boyd Rice (I think) going on about how his music was so loud it was causing acid flashbacks and I also thought there was a lot of macho posturing that went with being really loud and having a high threshold for loud sounds. I really got to hate that whole attitude. The right noise will kill you, so no one is impervious. And I am against people playing so loud that it can literally damage your hearing, regardless of whether it's a standard rock band or John Zorn or a salsa band. Sorry, tangent.)

x-posts galore

OH NO ANOTHER HUGE FIGHT HAS BROKEN OUT

http://www.dustedmagazine.com/features/category/5

Many a true word spoken in Jess

b2d: alright, fair enough. i understand that people have different motives for the creation of music/"music"/noise/"noise"/sound/etc.etcetc. but i feel that in the "noise scene" (i feel awkward using these terms with you guys), there aren't any limitations when it comes to structure/content/melody/rhythm/method, whereas in other musical genres, there are definite boundaries. it's harder to pin down; MSP Is totally right about that.

RS: Talking about the boredoms is hard. jon is the one who ought to chime in here. while their fanbase intersects with the wolf eyes fanbase, i think as artists the two are coming from fairly different areas. then again, when the boredoms started they were doing crazy spazz/noise/hardcore, so maybe that helps things. as for volume.. man, i dunno. it's loud and in your face and that's part of its appeal, to some. to others it's a turn off. i'd say the reasoning for volume (or lack thereof; son of earth, for example, play VERY QUIETLY) is dependent on the artist--whitehouse has a heavily sadistic image/vibe going on, so loud volume goes right along with that.

while we're on the subject of both wolf eyes and dusted's listed, there's can be found here.

but they're a band that has changed more over the years than just about any band i can easily think of. (i'm sure somebody here will come up with an example being the knowledgable crew folks are.) i saw them in a period where i didn't like their records either. but...

yeah... ian's otm about the approaches and limits etc etc. i dunno. many of the people i know in noise bands are simply just hanging out on the edge trying to be on that forward/experimental frilly edge. that comes from jaded kids to heady academics and mixes of both and then some.

"noise" as a word is probably wide... and so maybe it's hard to pin it all down. there are a lot more labels and genres to throw around.
m.

The only way to listen to Songs of Love And Hate for me is fucking LOUD. Especially "Avalanche;" that is the most brutal, gut-twisting jam ever. totally noize!

Actually, I have this thing on tape that I don't know what it is that I taped off the radio late at night once. The DJ described it as "Japanese industrial" but I'm thinking it might be Merzbow, but I haven't heard enough to be sure. (Actually, it sounds a bit like Throbbing Gristle's Grief--which maybe is the last TG album I still really like--in that there are interviews and speech mixed in with the other sounds.)

Would anyone like to try to identify it? I could make a copy of it, though there might be some added distortion since my tape to tape recording almost always comes out sounding wrong.

It sounds like noise is close to be Cage's idea of music without its radical anti-expressionist and anti-taste components (which are a turn-off to me, incidentally).

Overall, it's a well-written review, but I can't tell who that's an indictment of. Throw the ILX context out the window, but I still think that the noise scene (or whatever) is responsible for some of the most forward looking music right now. I don't listen to Boredoms or Animal Collective or Black Dice etc to piss people off, I listen to it because I'm genuinely moved by it.

OTM. Those of us from within view it very differently than those on the outside. I never realized that before.

i'm not sure if that was a sincere statement or not. i'll get back to you.

Bands are not their fans, of course, and in their own weird ways, SHOTM and Wolf Eyes are screwing with noise's strictures.

Both innacurate and misleading. In this scene bands really are fans of their fellow noizers; looking at the Sunburned list on Dusted referenced above makes that abundantly clear. Further, the whole notion of noise having "strictures" is bunk.

xpost

(B2D-that album is a monument to freaked-out goodness. It's impossible to hate. I just don't need to hear accordions too much in my daily music life. I dunno why. I think it's just polka. Polka ruined it for me.)

Did Cage ever say that about rock 'n' roll specifically? Just curious.

Dominique: Steve Albini wrote of Whitehouse:

William Bennett can effortlessly play almost any Yes song you could be pained to mention on Spanish guitar. I shit you not. Each of the songs Whitehouse recorded was structurally mapped by a famous heavy metal song. So much so, in fact, that all Bennett used as a headphone cue was a cassette recording of whichever Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden or Deep Purple song the track was based on.

You don't like the new Destiny's Child single, Scott?!

I think that's pretty much uniform throughout ILM, noise board included. We're all drawn here because we're dabblers and ILM plays to that impulse. The noise board may be more uniform in discussion, but I know you've ran a few newslists for bands, are they really that much different? Just because you get on an MBV/T. Rex/whatever newslist to talk about that band doesn't mean that's all you listen to, or even the majority of what you listen to.

Me, Clear Channel + 1000s of teenage girls can't be wrong, Ned!

thats awesome

in certain ways, this can be refreshing, but, of course, it also veers close to locker room dweeby masculinity

by the same token, i also agree, the noise fanbase is often very broad in its tastes

"Free Noise" is the soundbite label which has been applied to a certain brand of newly emergent New Zealand musical activity. It is 'free' because it adheres to principles of improvisation, and it is 'noise' because in rhythm, texture, tone, melody and volume, it is outside the parameters of what is domestically accepted as 'music'. As a countercultural musical movement, free noise could well be, but probabliy isn't, the most exciting new development in New Zealand music. For the producer, it offers lucrative financial rewards and potentially unlimited artistic credibility; for the consumer, it promises personal growth in many spheres: psychological advancement, heightened aesthetic awareness, general mental improvement and skyrocketing social mobility. With this music, not even the sky is the limit.

Corpus Hermeticum was founded by Bruce Russell at some unfixed point early in the 1990s. Since then he has tirelessly walked the free noise dog, creating a new market and nurturing it to its current pitch of receptivity. This is a man whose stock-in-trade is undermining, and is some cases even reversing, popularly-held conceptions of what New Zealand music is, was and should be. His efforts have fortuitously coincided with the sudden availability and popular acceptance of two new domestic release format options, Geraldine lathe-cut polycarbonate records, and compact discs. Furthermore, and more importantly, there has also occurred a significant demographic shift towards a widespread openness to free improvised jazz music, as championed by certain media figureheads and aesthetic institutions. In particular, 'free jazz' has become increasingly popular throughout the early-to mid-1990s, with interest peaking in recent years with swells of acclaim for a number of saxophonists influenced by key 1960s figures - possibly the most attention jazz music has received in this country since it was invented by Chet Baker in the early 1950s.

Hence the title Le Jazz Non, whilst avoiding jazz music's more negative, stigmatizing associations, by virtue of not being jazz, free noise can nevertheless reference the proponents and principles of jazz music - the most crucial being improvisation, and enjoy all the positive countercultural linkages. The idea of improvisation is so salient because improvisation is a musical philosophy with an outstanding lineage of intellectual superiority, and artists claiming it as the bulwark of their creative endeavours can legitimately stake claims to the cultural, methodological, and ideological high ground. Free noise artists can easily reference the ideas of figures as disparate as Cecil Taylor, Karlheinz Stockhausen, John Cage, and Derek Bailey, with little or no resultant embarrassment.

For the budding entrepreneur, free noise is an attractive option for a number of reasons. Little or no technical ability is required in the free noise milieu, is is considered de rigeur to not be able to play one's instrument, and complete musical illiteracy is encouraged. Only a small financial outlay is needed: free noise musicians present poorly-recorded music with pride (usually they perform with decrepit and frequently broken instruments). With the CD and Geraldine polycarbonate release formats freely available, financial gain is guaranteed. This is where the do-it-yourself ethic finds its ultimate resolution; once the artists start to release the music themselves, they see how much money there is to be made.

Free noise is a nationwide phenomenon. Dunedin, now in terminal musical decline, is no longer the geographical centre, and has lost much of its credibility as a global musical omphalos. Today's free noise artists hail from locales as far afield as Blenheim, Wellington and Whangarei, and they proudly proclaim their regional diversity. Many of the artists on Le Jazz Non are recent converts and have difficult past histories, exact details of which they would not thank me to reproduce here. Their success, one and all, has been impressive. many of them already hav deals with established and respected overseas labels. Little to no soliciting was required, such is the current level of foreign interest. Even the most self-professedly isolationist of these artists, a man who disregards communication as an outmoded means of achieving human progress, has had to fend off approaches from several offshore imprints.

Consumers of free noise are at liberty to bask in the reflected glow of higher culture by association. In the fanzine culture that surrounds and documents free noise, it is a solidly-entrenched axiom that the more obscure the artist, the more credibility available to those associated with them. This search for cultural capital is ongoing and productive of lucrative personal and financial rewards. Free noise is its next goldmine. Moreover, through pledging allegiance to free noise, consumers immediately link themselves with its attached referents - both those ideological as discussed above, and those cultural cited by free noise protagonists, e.g. Russell's Rosicrucian antecedents. Should consumers feel the need to actually consume this culture, the prospect of intellectual expansion, with all the obvious flow-ons, is an open offer. And thus, everyone is a winner in the free noise game. For the new player, Le Jazz Non must serve as the obvious starting point. Collecting the finest representative efforts of the most promising artists right now, it is an essential fin de siecle documents. It offers a concise guide to the current landscape, both mapping it or the purposes of the present day, and preserving it for posterity. It is to the late 1990s what East Village Other was to the late 1960s, what No New York was to the late 1970s, and what nothing was to the late 1980s becuase the late 1980s sucked. It's the perfect portable summary of the scene that rests at the cutting edge of world culture, a compilation of artists of inscrutably peerless creativity.

Free noise is new, free noise is radical, and free noise is now.

Free noise is the New Thing.

Nick Cain, June 1996.

RRR records, Bananafish magazine, the "Rising from the Red Sands" cassette series, Unsound magazine, Merzbow, Hijokaidan, Hanatarashi pre"AIDS-a-delic", certain TG songs (but not all), Whitehouse, certain Organum records (but not all), certain AMM (pre-John Tilbury), certain Xenakis pieces (but not all) the 80s cassette underground, the prototype of industrial music before the WaxTrax/NIN takeover, only Neubauten tracks such as the "Das Schaben" 7", the Zurich Schimpfluch scene around Runzelstirn & Gurgelstock and Sudden Infant and Schimpfluch Aktion Gruppe, burlier Arcane Device, Incapacitants, Gerogerigegege, Violent Onsen Geisha, Solmania, Agencement, early NON, stuff on the Tochnit Aleph label, certain Hecker tracks, Russell Haswell's non-DJ set work, von Hauswollf, John Duncan circa "Riot!", Masonna, Dave Philips, Black Jewish Gays, Pauline Oliveros' "Bye Bye Butterfly", Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music etc.

I have loved "noise" with an S since I was 16; I am now 33 and suddenly, look mom at what they've done to my noise scene . .. .

I am truly mystified that "noize" now spelled with a Z seems to include Animal Collective (an excellent band but one whose charms focus on faux naif doo wop vocalizing and Syd Barretish singsong) and the Black Dice (an excellent band who used to be hardcore and then were drum circle Amon Duul and now are gentle circuit bending chirping ala a gappy recording of David Tudor's "Rainforest") and the Boredoms (a totally fucking transcendent band but one who play music with a capital M with plenty of real and in tune instruments; historically related to noise due to Yamatsuka Eye's Hanatarashi project- which is my favorite noise project of all time, check out the 5CDR bootleg of early stuff un/re-released available through tochnit aleph- but still the Boredoms are NOT a noise band, they're a band band, cmon people), Yes, Wolf Eyes do really count as a noise band (at least Dread and Dead Hills and the CDRs I have do, haven't bought Burned Mind yet)- but NONE of these other bands mentioned above ought to, in my book. The question is: am I just a tired old dinosaur who should stop whining and splitting genre hairs? To me noise is a centuries old historical arc, importantly articulated and perhaps named into existence by Russolo and Marinetti, discussed back and forth between Cowell and Cage, hammered and reforged into particular shapes in Austria in the late 60s with the Aktionist Larm-Konzerts and in the late 70s in England with Industrial Records and in the early 80s in Germany with Neubauten and the mid-80s-to-mid-90s in Japanoise. I think culture is only alive when it mutates and changes, so surely I should celebrate the death of "noise" and the birth of "noize": but this newly shuffled canon bugs me because the word has been stretched beyond its useful/meaningful application. Art schools across this good land are *crawling* with 20 year old hipsters who say they love noise and when asked what they think that means trot out that same old list of: Animal Collective, Black Dice, Boredoms. It just strikes me as, well, not truly noise; like yes, those are all really good bands. But they are NOT noise, sorry. I mean sure, Nautical Almanac, that counts, sure Wolf Eyes, that counts, there are noise bands that exist in the here and now. But this widespread application of a term that once meant quite a lot to me and still inspires me is bothersome. I am not targetting Mr Harvell with this rant, or any individuals on ILX, in fact judging from this thread plenty of younger people who are newer to noise are energetic and thoughtful about their consumption/enjoyment of it. But the widespread discursive mutation in the extension/application of the term "noise" in the demographic of hipsters-at-large does a disservice to both history and truth.

very pedantically yours,

(my 2 cents - yeah, jess, seemingly has used his knowledge of noise dudes direct from the ilxor world but do i care? no, not really. its not exactly chekhov is it?)

what, like Bjork you mean?

'jess writes an article, in which he positively describes two very different records. jess dresses up said article in angry digressions and jabs at both "hippy" culture and "noise" culture, as though it's possible to separate music from the culture it comes from. it's not. it's a very blase and pop-ist approach to separate the two.'

Ian it is perfectlly plausible to like a type of music and to hate certain aspects/all of the culture that comes attached with it (even if by the act of listening to it you may appear to be approving of it) -- he is using david keenan's pieces for the wire as a jumping off point, saying that you have to look at both and not separate(Keenan mostly took a consumer guide approach, which is the wire primer's function, but still). Dancehall may be laregely great and fun right now but it has its set of 'dark' issues too but its far more a part of pop so there is no hiding place (the point is these things have to be bought out if you feel its present. Whether he has any concrete evidence (ho ho) I don't know or whether he just thinks this is just hardcore culture in another disguise -- which I think he has had some experience of?).

otoh, there is at least one female member in sunburned, its 50/50 on double leopards, one female member each in vibracathedral orchestra and sunroof (most no wavers had a female member too right?). Don't know what male/female ratio participation in US 'noise shows' is like but I saw sunroof in the UK a few weeks ago and it was higher than I would've thought (70/30, I'd say).

anyway, the music was to turn it all ON and and do the speaker damage thing ('soothing' actually, reminded me when I saw suno))) last year) -- 'cause at the end of it I just found the drones/whatever to be really unsatisfying, there wz suck a lack of anythine beyond the actual sound stream that was kinda nice to experience but they were just so bored of droning underneath the main sound after 15 mins and so were we -- some ppl started rolling up some of the fliers handed out and throwing them on stage (the band had their backs turned on us throughout); despite the lame reaction that wz entertaining enough (noise to them, I guess).

the only reason a pop band like animal collective gets labeled noise (noize seems to be from the internet)... is cause there are noisy elements to what they do. it's certain weirdo something. but yeah, i think a bunch of us who hang out over at the pickle bar board would say as ian did above... AC = pop.

YET, i think for me there's a certain attractiveness to novel/weirdness. it's that dada (fuck i said dada and i told myself i wasn't gonna write dada in this thread, but here i am, fuck me.)... it's that dada spirit of anything goes, diy, sproing! yet for some, i know it's not that at all. but there's how i came to this. "destroy all convention"... or at least some convention.

noise, that unconventional element of music that renders it not-music, has been a thread throughout all music for quite a while... kids today are playing rock/pop and infusing non-conventional sounds and infusing an "other" element in it. that's been labeled noise for lack of a better word.

maybe cause they play shows with the nautical almanacs. or maybe it's cause some old coot keeps screaming, "turn that goddamned noise down!!!"

one old guy, the pariah of music critics everywhere,
m.

but yeah, now that indie rock has come to mean completely bland and uninspired to 90% of people, i think that's helped the general noise tag evolve back into play.
m.

i tend to be in a similar boat. i need a hook... be it texture or tone or beat... i do dig some stuff that has none of those in it's favor, but dagnabbit, i like pop music. i just like weirded pop music. being in nashville, where the tradition and standards of the music is "#1!!!", i need something else.

seriously, my favorite noise band right now is sorta like an improv marriage of sonic youth and alice coltrane. irreverant vs. total spiritual. are they totally white blurt "noise"? no. there are other words to use. but taiwan deth (who were tan as fuck, who were new faggot cunts) are awesome. they're a girl/boy noise duo.

m.

nitush wrote something about this on ilm a long time ago, referring to "slanted pop," which is a really good phrase for it (unless it's j-pop, i guess).

it's like black sabbath on a king tubby/peter brontzman ala zombie-themed pleasure cruise. get out the lighters. bang your head. find your spirit pokemon.
m.

Though I still very much like the article, I must agree.

Adam posts there so it can't be all bad

Hahahaha! I am the antidote!

(I'm actually not disturbed by it all, I was just surprised that such a place existed in SF. But so long as we're agreed that Mexican food only makes sense in states that border Mexico itself, all is well.)

I have no illusions about SF cheesesteaks holding much of a candle to their Phillie brethren, but they are quite good. Next time you come up, Ned, we will drag you there.

WAAAAH.

(Keep in mind that the 'Mexican' food experiences I noticed in Aberdeen, Dublin and Melbourne are questionable.)

That said, it pains me that there isn't a truly good Mexican joint in Madison.

can someone provide a synposis?

Actually they really should get together and do this and be nothing but Mexican death metal.

but to get back on topic, cheeses for jesus!!!

that was to yanc3y

duh

But there isn't good Mexican food everywhere (although even in St Louis there was one burrito place that was pretty okay, but it was literally the only halfway decent place.)

"My good friend/former roomate (not to mention a successful chef/gourmand and self-described Cheesesteak Connoisseur) is a Philadelphia native and swore by the "Cheese Steak Shop" (the place up Divis. @ Pine)."

Has he gone to the place we went to last night?

I was really serious upthread about bands = fans in the "noise scene" or whatever. There's really a feeling of excitement and positivity about this thing--it can be really inspiring to see your friends jamming out and creating something inexplicable. I think the prevalence of collaborations in the noise scene helps reinforce this. Search: Wolf Eyes with Smegma LP, Lifestorm (Knifestorm + God Willing), PPP (Prurient + Meerk Puff [of Forcefield/Mindflauer] + Pleasurehorse), and the Newton & Tan as Fuck CDr. Collaborating with friends in the creation of something formless (or close to formless) is really exciting.

Can I say Drew's post up there a bit was really cool, mang?

WAY TO GO LADS!

See also, drum circles?

I'm totally willing to make noise CDrs for people, based on what they're interested in, in exchange for CDrs of stuff I know nothing/close to nothing about--dance music, soul, bebop, hip hop.. we should all be learning more about music. E-mail me if anyone's interested.

xposts.

Ned OTM. I enjoy a lot of that terrastock type stuff (though i got into it through The Broken Face really), and there's definite crossover. Last time I saw Black Forest/Black Sea, they invited noize dude Knifestorm to jam with them on their last song; the spirit of collaboration/freedom is very similar (if not congruent. i love that word. congruent.)

Heh -- considering I wrote them, I'll take a small part of that credit! ;-) You'd love the dudes in Crevice, especially Jeff DeCuir, guy's done everything from original US hardcore DUDE (Fearless Iranians from Hell) to all sorts of soundfuckery since he was a kid to AM pop celebrations to synthpop merriment.

Crevice and associated:

http://www.unclebuzz.com

Tell Jeff I sent ya. He's got lots of stuff there. New synth band is Hyperbubble:

http://www.hyperbubble.net

YES, Fresh Tortillas! I couldn't remember the name. They were popping up everywhere the last time I was in Manhattan. I found it very amusing.

The airport isn't really Philly. It's like embassys or international waters or whatever. (Acutally I kind of like Philly's airport. It's a hell of a lot better than Pittsburgh's which is a complete fucking mess of a thing.)

http://www.time-lagrecords.com/home.html

Not least of which is the Black Forest/Black Sea split with Christina Carter! Also contains a long collaboration track... Roger Adultery's band's got a double lP coming out on timelag which looks to be totally rad.

xposts with ned! eclipse should be sending me that cd RIGHT NOW. i actually give you a lot of credit for helping me get into psych-y stuff because you were one of a few who originally pointed me to Mr. ed Hardy, messiah of all things spacey.

(i do LOVE taco bell, though. growing up in zee suburbs, if yr hungry at 1:45am, the speeding drive to either taco bell or wendys is NECESSARY. i looked forward to it like a junkie looks forward to the needle's pinch.)

You were eating his burrito?

Yeah, I don't remember Portland having any good Mexican places either (but they used to have some good Russian delis which balanced things.)

I believe the original SD mexichain is Roberto's.

Portland has a pretty good mexican restaurant just west of the Burnside bridge.

i think the noise scene both benefits and suffers from this situation

amateurist in making banal point shocker

xxxxxpost

i like cilantro

My favorite Roberto's was on PCH in on the border of Encinitas/Solano Beach (N. County SD).

i think the noise scene both benefits and suffers from this situation

tightness can be perceived as insularity, this is true. but i've also found that 98% of people (musicians, fans) are very outgoing & friendly. we're not cold monsters (most of us.)

oookay, i'm going to class now. take care guys.

Don't trust anyone that tells you that Gaspare's is the best pizza in SF though (it's good but not all that) and the place that Ralph Barbieri big ups all the time is a fucking rip off.)

NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

of course not.

but there are some uncomfortable aspects to what i've experienced of the freedom from seen. confrontationalism for its own sake. and weird racial stuff. p.s. i'm not accusing you of being a racist.

sour cream is also good.

I'm not denying THAT! I'm glad to see Alex agrees with me.

arronelle's or whatever in berkeley around the corner from mod lang was a fave too for thin crust.
m.

???

I don't know this place and I am around there all the time!

Sometimes a burrito is too big of a committment, and sometimes I don't feel like eating beans.

i will clarify later i hope.

http://www.shopinberkeley.com/a/arinellpizza/index.php

sorry... i can't spell.
m.

Could you kindly elaborate on FF's "weird racist stuff"?

i dunno like playing a set of noise and then bouncing around exaggeratedly to snoop dogg. there seems to be a weird primitivism/rap music thing going on. sort of frat boy esque.

does that make sense?

i don't mean to be incendiary.

xpost

how do they know how big your head is??

does that make sense?

you must be either talking about hair police or no doctors (which is fine as they are by far my least favorite FF acts.

Oh no, now there are two Wolf Eyes Dans!

gygax: yes i am!! (also neon hunk and some other bands i've forgotten the names of. a friend of a friend plays in one of them, but he predates/is kind of aloof from the freedom from thing. not to say i don't have some reservations about his whole outlook.)

we are in aggreement then i think. (i actually liked some of the music, but the whole "happening" made me uncomfortable. also the circumstances were really weird.)

Exactly, right. Do people who don't follow ILM like this stuff? The in references give me a headache as is.

*tee hee

i wasn't trying to "own" you.

That said, I think Jess has some good points and an interesting perspective. That mention of Animal Collective might be a mistake, but the Lightning Bolt is not bothersome--comes out of the whole Providence post-hardcore ideology that spawned a million noize bands. Also, what's wrong with generalizing about noize using the internet evidence as your model? The noise "scene" is very much a product of message boards and tiny label websites, as much as it is a product of hardcore-like zine/tape trading and setting up basement shows, isn't it?

As I see it, it's not vague at all. In fact it goes to a specific point about ideology and self-definition.

i think the best writing about noise in many cases is written somewhat in the style of noise, like jw's constantly-changing name/all-caps approach to posting. thats the only thing i find a little off-putting about jess's pretty good article - it sort of lacks the irreverence and enthusiasm that seem to be such great parts of noise music these days.

"fun" is never without larger implications. i know that sounds really prissy.

some noise fans, not all, but many i personally know came to noise after saying yes to many many many types of music first.

saying noise is music requires faith, yes?

more faith than pop? it's a new religion every time, instead of what you grew up with.
m.

sounds like a re-run of that whole US hardcore/pigfuck thing + internet and also its more international too when you factor in 80s UK post-indutrial music ('consumer electronics') and japan via thrash metal and the guttural noise element of free jazz (arthur doyle, take out of the process etc) and indian classical music (drone for a while but not too long 'cause no one has the patience for it).

Hence, that was my main problem with "the line" in the article, but music writers related to different music cultures using their own experiences and criteria (no pun intended).. and I really liked the piece because Jess really seemed to be conflicted with himself within the piece, whether you agree with him or not, which made for not only a great article but a far more engaging and ultimately pro-Wolf Eyes/SHOTM piece than what would otherwise be a mildly all-praising, boring, press release type article on the same bands, which would get a few smiley shrugs from the already converted, otherwise.

i mean, andrew wk is a noise dude.

Well, that's a bit unfair, I think. Certainly it is not as good or plentiful as in LA or SD, but that's hardly a fair standard.

We have some great places:

El Gallito
Tacos Guaymas
Gordito's (borderline)
Plus all the taco trucks on the north side, esp. the one in the gas station across from Northgate mall.

I'll admit there's plenty of BAD Mexican food in Seattle, but there are some great places.

no, not anymore (if ever) - and anyway the definition of music was never set in stone, and whatever it is right this second will contantly change.

at least you like the right baseball team, though.

http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/bagge/bullet/b1.jpg

I hope he's happy.

I'll opt for Taco Johns.

-- Alex in SF

The cover picture ACTUALLY pales to the one's inside the issue. It was almost eerie.

-- Julio Desouza (juli...), November 11th, 2004. (later)

okay... but is a lump of matter food without being properly arranged as a burrito?

and furthermore, is the pitter patter of drums music? or does it take bjork in a musical to make it so?

m.

I wz listening to jess approved music while typing that.

I'm gonna eat sphagetti now.

Mr Harvell, I'm from the grammar police. Do you know why I've pulled you over, sir? No? Are you aware that you just committed four infractions of the Simile and Metaphor codes? Step out of the text, please, sir. Come round to the third paragraph.

The noise scene in 2004 is a bit like terrorist cells: only vaguely united by ideology, fractious, and connected by the Internet. But Lightning Bolt, Animal Collective, Black Dice, and others have crawled out of the limited-edition cassette playpen and into the light of something like acclaim.

Now sir, I'm going to let you off with a warning on that one. You've got 'terrorists' crawling out of a 'playpen', but they're in different sentences, so I'll let it pass. Now, sir, if you'd like to follow me to para 5. Keep your hands out of your pockets, please. Thank you.

spin concentric orbits of sound and fury that sometimes collide in a Fourth of July explosion

Now, sir, that's a metaphor, isn't it? 'Concentric orbits,' that's planets, right? But a Fourth of July explosion, that's fireworks? Sir, may I see your poetic license? Sir, if you resist I'm going to have to use the cuffs. Thank you. Now, looky here.

"Camel Backwards" revs up a bone-shaking groove hanging onto its Stone Age funk by its fingernails while brass and noise strafe like lightning

The groove is an automotive vehicle of the kind seen in The Flintstones, am I right, sir? It revs like a car. But it has fingernails. Fingernails, sir. And finally:

SHOTM attempt a radical refusenik democracy in a genre where every man is an island with a ring modulator.

A man is an island, that might have been acceptable, sir, if somewhat cliched. But a man who is an island which is a synthesizer... sir, these signals are endangering other language users. Lock your article and follow me to my posting, please, I'm running you in to the dictionary.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1411782_877163c843.jpg

http://www.tastyweb.nl/TastyWeb/Images/pico.jpg

This is the most interesting thing in the article. It seems like quite an indictment (far more than the "f*ggot" jibe), and I'm wondering if anyone (since Jess is not here), noize-y or not, has any further insight. Like I said before, I have a vague uneasiness about noize culture (from my very limited exposure to it). Is there something sinister about it (that might lead to a kind of "fascism")? Does it signify a nihilism akin to say, Viennese Actionism?

but somewhere, someone told you that a pile of pasta was spaghetti and was food. not worms. (which actually could be food.) not a pile of mop thread. (which i guess could be food, but...)

the beatles = music. not fungus on a head spitting ducks.

again, flash to the old man, "turn off that goddam racket! how DO YOU listen to that noise!?!"

is there a reason why the US defense department uses metallica and barney to drive iraqi prisoners into submission? would that work on a 15 year old american kid?
m.

This is the most interesting thing in the article. It seems like quite an indictment (far more than the "f*ggot" jibe), and I'm wondering if anyone (since Jess is not here), noize-y or not, has any further insight. Like I said before, I have a vague uneasiness about noize culture (from my very limited exposure to it). Is there something sinister about it (that might lead to a kind of "fascism")? Does it signify a nihilism akin to say, Viennese Actionism?

I don't understand this that much. There are definite examples of it (esp. in the power electronics sub-scene; see whitehouse, grey wolves, nicole 12, richard ramirez, etc.) but my experiences with noise were largely about its positivty and fun. growing up in Providence I was exposed to tons of stuff that people call noise that emphasized fun and imagination and playfulness--lightning bolt, forcefield, pink & brown. even a band like wolf eyes has this really "metal" mentality--music is for good times, kickin back with friends, gettin' rowdy. maybe that comes off as frattish.

while we're on the subject, amateurist's comment about noize dudes and hip hop kind of rubs me the wrong way. are you suggesting that said noise dudes could never sincerely enjoy hip hop? I know plenty who do.

there are so many approaches and reasons people come to make noisy music... some sinister... some innocent as any other genre.

dan pointed out elsewhere that jess seems to be more talking about one splinter of the overall scene. that makes me feel better.

cause fuck, am i sinister cause i like noise? jeez. excuse me, i gotta go change a diaper.
m.

xposts galore

careful with those diaper pins, weirdo noise dude!!!! Make sure it's not on too tight! oh wait, is the diaper going on you? If so, disregard.

queen's "one vision" is fascist.

DAMN KIDS.

(you know i love.)

I'm such a pussy and clearly not a noize dude.

xxxpost

yeah, jess really misses all of that:

Wolf Eyes, in particular, are a fucking hoot, in love with all of metal's pomp and gore, with titles like "Urine Burn" giving the game away.

http://www.pnc.com.au/~siblu/bunchofbabies.jpg

a lot of what is projected by a band's sound is not really indicative of their personalities. i've found that to be true with noise more than any other genre of music i've been involved with; with a youth crew hardcore band, they're singing about life a clean livin' while projecting a macho image, and that is often the way they were personally. noize dudes can project a variety of things with their music (hate, anger, irreverance, being on drugs, laughter), and it's often not easy to clearly see a link between the sounds and the creators.

i think one of noise's attributes, for me, is that it's so ambiguous in meaning.

xposts.

I wasn't necessarilly addressing jess with that comment, just whomever it was who asked for an elaboration. and i DO think jess misses it in that he interprets that as frat boy jock mentality; it's not the same thing.

I remembered this piece I saw on TV (a few years ago now) about this restaurant that opened in France and it only served cooked insects as food. something maybe unaccepatable as food but that maybe bcz yr body may not be able to digest it whereas music like R&B and UK garage is noise for many in way that 'noise' music and the beatles was a lot of noise to sinatra fans but we have become noisier to it.

Noise (and silence) has been used as a confrontational tactic but it depends on the audience, what their expectations are (frog sounds in concert halls in the 1950s)...I don't expect anything to be offered up by the current bands in this scene to actually shock (or shake) anybody in it - I can't quite see anything too rebellious in it.

ton of x-posts

shit, don't they both semi-work for a detroit weekly or something? i've seen john's vegan smoothie recipes passed around...

regular as anybody.

Wolf Eyes, in particular, are a fucking hoot, in love with all of metal's pomp and gore jess definitely is sorta OTM on this point... the hansen list has plenty of manowar and horror flick love. but nothing more than plenty of other folks i know.
m.

My parents would probably say something funny instead of just so mean and wrong.

also the application of journalistic/critical techniques inappropriate to a certain subject by good charlotte fans. (here we go with the childishness again.)

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

He is hands down the WORST DRUMMER in the mooniverse.

(I really like the first LP)

I know this to be true, as it is with many bands, but on a visceral level couldn't stomach it.

Brainbombs scare me, too. There is something interesting/provacative about Brainbombs, though.

IIRC, John worked for the phone company in metro Detroit doing electronic maitenance.

I don't believe this. But that's just me.

I'm not saying this of music in general; just of noise, but I do stand by it in that respect. It's not something you can understand on the outside. YOu can make aesthetic observations, sure, but don't try to make cultural judgements without any knowledge of the subject.

m.

HORSE. SHIT.

xp

Bah. Being informative is so much better than being antagonistic.

xposts. can we go back to talking about burritos? i really want one.

So no burritos, then?

DUDE

sorry, don't want to beat a dead horse, but i don't see how you make the above claim and then say the claim is not about the music. the music is what you think is sonically ambiguous, right? so above, i assume "it" means the music. but even if it doesn't, i don't get why you think it's any tougher to understand the alleged "noise scene" if you haven't lived it than it would be to understand any similar scene in any other musical genre. which you apparently do think, because if not, why else would you have singled out "sonic ambiguity" in the phrase above? you apparently believe for some reason that noise is some kind of special animal. and sorry, but it's just not. (of course, maybe you think other kinds of music are sonically ambiguous as well, thus making their scenes impossible to analyze unless one is a part of them as well. and maybe you think other, sonically non-ambiguous scenes are impossible to analyze for different reasons entirely. i just don't get what sonic ambiguity has to do with your claim that you're not talking about the music. feel free to explain.)

noise, in many cases, has a sonic ambiguity that other musics do not. what feels menacing to some might feel soothing to others; angry could soon passionate--it varies.

"it" in the sentence of mine you've quoted, was mean to refer to the noise scene and the generalizations jess made about it. this thread evolved in a very addled way, full of cross-posting; that makes it harder to read, and that's too bad. i do feel that nothing useful can be gained about the noise scene from its sonics, partially because of its ambiguity and because of the vast variety of types of "noise" being created by a vast variety of different people. the dead c is not wolf eyes is not humectant:interruption is not caroliner is not lightning bolt is not arab on radar etc. they fall under the same general umbrella for reasons of sonic/aesthetic similarity.

perhaps i was being too general in my implication that there aren't other scenes like this; on second though sure there are--dance and even jazz spring to mind immediately; non-texted musics in general, I feel, need a significant cultural understanding before an understanding of the sounds themselves can be reached.

maybe i'm being obtuse.

they DON'T, that should read.. i feel that artists in this case get put together more because of common ideals/goals rather than distinct sonic similarities.

(if they could just learn to semi-ironically reassess in realtime all of the horseshit on the radio then all would be well etc.)

I think half the point is that we DO appreciate a chunk of all that, but jess/the world at large doesn't seem to acknowledge that.

and how are pop and rap and country etc. different exactly? do you really believe that every listener gets exactly the same thing out of say hoobastank or ashanti? sorry but that is just silly.

"non-texted musics in general, I feel, need a significant cultural understanding before an understanding of the sounds themselves can be reached."

right, the sounds. so: the music. which is what i thought you were saying til you denied it. again see my post above that starts "because what the music does may or may not have anything to do with what it tries to do" etc etc etc.

Hoobastank and Ashanti are referencing popular music. There is a conditioned response that is involved which is found less in noize, imo.

clay: pop and rap have clear motives, don't they? they have readily discerable lyrics, making the intended meaning MUCH more crystal. this is obv. not true in all cases, but by and large i don't think i'm amiss in saying that.

actually, most rap lyrics are anything but clear, if you ask me. and i still don't know what "the reason" is about, but maybe that's just because i never listened close enough. either way, thirteen years post smells like teen spirit and four decades post subterranean homesick blues, lyrical ambiguity and its sonic cousin are hardly radical. if anything, they're the biggest cliche' on earth.

and what, exactly, is "semi ironic" about it again, duke?

by that i mean how can one possibly be into hyperconditioned music for people who don't like music unless one (a) doesn't like music or (b) is being self-aggrandizing?

people who like music i don't = "people who don't like music."

which is stupid beyond words, obviously.

Jess Harvell: hates noise dudes and hippies, has no point (666 new answers)

Christian Vander thinks you are all FAGGOTS