So is there a band....

Pharmacists have Dorien Garry (a girl) = disqualified

Only the mid 90s edition of Radiohead fits with the description otherwise.

Cotton Mather I am pretty sure that the "dadrock" haters would hate. extremely Lennon-sounding vocals and all. Only they aren't famous enough for most people to be aware of them at all.

What's not to like?

I would say they don't put the main empasis on melody and harmony over rhythm either, even though there is certainly some melodic stuff on "Speakerboxx/The Love Below"

if the answer is no, geir, then why is that a bad thing?

Nope. Chick drummer. (xpost)

A lot of hip-hop acts, at least if most means more than 50 per cent.

...why is this important? Seriously.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), May 2nd, 2005. (later)

If my auntie had a dick she'd be my uncle, Geir.

as far as i'm aware you are the only person on ILM who is interested in this distiction as a qualitative one and why are you so keen on getting us like white-only bands? is there an implication of racism @ILM when, in fact, that racism resides in you?

Because some people tend to view it as a negative thing because it is "old fashioned" having white males only in a band.

"white guys with guitars" is way too often used as a negative term.

http://www.auburnmoonagency.com/music/images/Reed.jpg
http://www.auburnmoonagency.com/music/images/Reed.jpg

Why should one not like white-only bands to the same extent as everything else?

(Not to mention male-only, which is more atypical of typical post 1990 music than white only is)

xpost

"white guys with guitars" is way too often used as a negative term.

Who fucking cares, Geir? Bloc Party may not be the musical fit you're looking for, but even if they were you'd DQ them because the lead singer is BLACK (AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!). And don't try any of this "The reason they're not trad is BECAUSE he's black."

Your preoccupation with "white" pop music is weird, Geir.

I am not saying I dislike anything that does not consist of white guys with guitars. The point is that some people here tend to DQ anything that DOES consist of white guys with guitars only.

In the case of Bloc Party, their lack of good melodic songs is my main problem about them (like it was also my main problem about Joy Division and Gang Of Four)

i think this is about you not the rest of ILM, frankly.

also Tim Ellison OTM

xp

have any of them been made by black people?

Geir please link yo your list...

No, not this year. At least not so far. One of Ocean Colour Scene, one of my fave groups of the 90s, was black though. And Stevie Wonder made several wonderful albums during the 70s.

(Plus there were lots of great Motown singles in the 60s, but those acts never attempted to make cohesive albums)

Stephen Crane

(oh shit! The drummer's last name is SANDOVAL!!! I think he's HISPANIC!!!!!!)

o my godd

The Shins may be a good call btw. (But again, is there a reason why only American traditonally oriented bands tend to be accepted by most people here, and that most of them don't sell much?)

As for Soundtrack Of Our Lives, most of the comments I have read about them here have been negative.

D'oh Giboyeux beat me to the answer.

(oh. wait. Goddam you and your vaginaboobies Neko!)

I mean, I don't think there is a single band within any genre that anybody on ILM likes, that would be completely unlikely (and we have had several threads about that already)

But my point is that it seems a lot of the people here seem to dislike a lot of acts because they fit with the criteria mentioned in my original post, without really listening to whether they are good examples of the genre or not.

For instance, would any of the people who dislike Coldplay, Travis and Keane please direct me towards a band in the exact same genre (that is ballad/guitar oriented melodic 00s 30-something British indie/AOR) that is a much better example, doing this genre a lot better than any of those do?
Or is it just a matter of refusing the entire genre regardless of the actual quality of the songs?

Totally. Surprised you haven't peeped them yet, Geir. While the whole album isn't *great*, they are some jewels on there. Emma Blowgun... and If We Can Land A Man on the Moon...

For instance, would any of the people who dislike Coldplay, Travis and Keane please direct me towards a band in the exact same genre (that is ballad/guitar oriented melodic 00s 30-something British indie/AOR) that is a much better example, doing this genre a lot better than any of those do?
Or is it just a matter of refusing the entire genre regardless of the actual quality of the songs?

The thing is Geir, that people have given you some good examples (like New Pornographers and Shins) that fit without your wierd insistance that they have to be WHITE and MALE.

Not quite as much as Apples In Stereo, considering OTC have experimented a lot with floating and rather ambient soundscapes between their more traditional stuff.

Geir, you would love The Clientele. Pop perfection for your delectation. Seek out their debut The Violet Hour immediately.

Not impossible, but this isn't as much about what I would like as it is about what lots of people here tend to automatically dislike just because it is "old fashioned", "derivative" or for other musically irrelevant reasons.

As I said, they are the best call so far, and I certainly haven't read as much negativity here about them as about Travis/Coldplay. But I am pretty sure that if they had sold as many albums to 30 something that Travis and Coldplay had, then Shins would have been met with the same hatred too.

Shins are both white and male, aren't they?

all male yes. all white, no.

like being made by black people.

Oh. I thought you actually wanted us to, you know, answer your original question.

Geir, are you feeling....old? It's ok: we're all friends here.

Bringing up an act that most people on ILM haven't even heard doesn't answer my original question.

I mean, I love Cotton Mather, which was a brilliant example, but I doubt most ILMers have heard them at all.

The Polyphonic Spree :)

CRACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKA!

I think it's sad the way that white rock music never seems to get any press...I might start a blog about it.

xpost

Who? The Shins?! But...bu-bu-bu-...they were in GARDEN STATE!!!

The Polyphonic Spree :)

fixed.

If they are female and good looking, yes.

Oh, are they supposed to be a band? :-)

Close one.

Besides the TEN BANDS I've listed (and I second so many--Sloan, The Shins, etc.) I offer you ELBOW. They even have a tiny little bit of a Genesis thing going, which I gather would please you mightily. Their first album is more POP than their second, but they sound like your boys Coldplay and Travis sort of, I just think they're much better.

This is breathtaking!

You are surely winding us all up...

Ocean colour scheme are the worst band ever and one day I will invent an electric machine to prove it.

Geir: (Plus there were lots of great Motown singles in the 60s, but those acts never attempted to make cohesive albums)

Oh, my....!

Pedal Steel + Rock Music = Blissed Out
Geir, Do You Like Led Zeppelin?
Manliest/Least Manly bands/singers/bandmembers in Britpop?
The Wedding Present tonight (4/29/05) at The Bowery Ballroom, NYC
Tindersticks : classic or dud

and so on because now I am bored

Are those attributes always irrelevant, Geir? Do they never come in to play in how you perceive the greatness of a certain artist?

hope so...

Yes, they are. Good music is timeless.

AND HEY GEIR, YOU NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SPOON! GIRLS CAN TELL IS RIGHT UP YOUR ALLEY, BUDDY! OH AND WHAT ABOUT SUPERGRASS AND THE SUPER FURRY ANIMALS?

SFA are popular here because they use a lot of synths and are kind of "weird" and experimenting. Plus the recent SFA thread had several negative comments anyway.

Yeah! Maybe the hive doesn't love them, but I'd bet more than 50% do.

x-post ya beat me Geir.

(I mean, I love SFA, really, but they don't fit into the stereotype that is seemingly always disliked here)

The Black Crowes are too blues and rock'n'roll to fit with the criteria.

xxx-post

-- Tim Ellison (timelliso...), May 2nd, 2005.

Yes, they are. Good music is timeless.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), May 2nd, 2005.

Music is not just notes and sound, though. Styles of music have sociological connotations.

The "genre" you talk of exists nowhere but in your MIND.

Way too often, yes. But I think music should struggle to get beyond those, and become timeless and great regardless of any sociological connotations. That is what good music should always aim at.

Not in this thread, no. Most of the Britpop bands fit with the criteria, as do several current American alternative acts such as Wilco and Jayhawks, not to mention hundreds and hundreds of underground powerpop acts.

Plus if there is one really narrow genre that Travis, Coldplay and Keane belong in, then Athlete and Thirteen Senses (plus Starsailor, although they suck) fits into the same one nevertheless.

Oh man, Linus is SO GOOD live.

Whoa, you mean there isn't TOTAL CONSENSUS on ILM????

xpost

x=post

Well, of course you could say the German 19th century of "Absolut Musik" was sort of a sociological connotation in itself. But it was still an interesting idea.

There have been revivals of older genres ever since the late 60s when the hippies started getting influence from blues and country.

And the fact that Coldplay, Travis and Keane all sell bucketloads make them seem quite current in a way, even though the kidz may think differently.

Geir, could you please name the specific "those" people on ILX you're talking about, instead of just devising this strawman? Because I think you're totally constructing this to support an unsupportable argument.

Does that add to your enjoyment of the music at all, though? Because I thought you said it was irrelevant.

Geir The Unstoppable Argument Machine

There are certainly those who seem to regard anything made by all whites (and again, even more all males) as unworthy of attention.

he might mean some of the folks on the dance threads... but is asking name naming really a good idea, that could get er messy...

BZZZZT!!! NOT WHITE! NOT WHITE!

M.O.T. != Caucasian, dude. Get some scandos and then we'll talk.

Yes, Jewish people are rather white.

Plus I don't give the fuck about skin colour anyway. But it seems skin colour (not to mention gender) means a lot to fans of other genres.

Why the heck is "white guys with guitars" supposed to be something negative?

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0028-0404-1617-5112_SM.jpg

...I just think a lot of people think that many WGWG bands (wug-wug!) are BORING RETREADS. To wit: if I want sweet melodic pop, I'll go listen to the White Album. Fucka Keane.

This thread hasn't half gone on seeing as the answer is The Shins.

....that Latino dude is still the sticky wicket, though, buddy.

(zang!)

And they're cross-referenced in the Blissed-Out Pedal Steel Guitar thread! Americana Uber-Alles!

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002E4A8C.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Didn't he say something like "Hey esse, joo lahk mah lowrahd?"

If so, they will fit the bill if suitably liked, I believe.

We are in a stalemate.

http://www.fireflies.nl/upload/shins.jpg

As for Jellyfish, I cannot see how they would be any more popular here than Crowded House (a similar band, only better) are.

http://www.brucewillis.de/wallpaper/files/last_man_standing__wallpaper_1__640x480_.jpg

Geir and everyone else on this thread.

x-post I think I threw up in my mouth.

http://www.mopsquad.com/artman/uploads/the.jpg

xpost i thought ilm hated wilco personally

Shins still a good call, although I think Doves may be the best call. They have achieved considerably more mainstream success than Shins ("The Last Broadcast went UK #1) and yet I haven't seen a lot of negative comments about them here. I guess it has to do with their dance past ;)

Why should I do that when a lot of new great music is being made every month in the same traditional genre that Beatles was part of?

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=10:ovcyxd7b3old

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:kx6gtr6ykl6x

and if the pet shop boys don't have rhythm then i'm not sure what rhythm is.

and if either band is guitar-oriented, i obviously don't know what a guitar is.

my point was, Geir's point about ILM hating new white guitar-pop is ridiculous.

Virtually every Pet Shop Boys song can be played on an acoustic guitar and be wholly recognizable as the same basic thing (although some of them are harmonically tricky enough that they work way better on keyboards: "It's a Sin"!).

I am still wondering who, exactly, on ILM regards music made by all males (let alone all whites) as "unworthy of attention"; until Geir names some names, I'm going to assume that that is a figment of his imagination.

(Also: while I don't think anyone thinks that "white guys with guitars" is INTRINSICALLY negative, it's very easy to argue that there are enormous numbers of totally generic, boring, uninspired white-guys-with-guitars bands--the point is not that they all sound alike, but many of the bad ones are bad in the same way.)

(And in the very-heavily-Beatles-influenced post-'90 complete-control non-screaming white-guys-with-guitars that a lot of people here love dept.: what about Elliott Smith? Is the disqualifier that he played under his own name rather than a band name--aside from the Heatmiser records, which just weren't as good?)

Again, there was a thought behind every one of my criteria. The traditional band format is also what tends to be more or less automatically disliked by the "new music" fans.

And before you come up with more suggestions, I suggest you read EVERY SINGLE ONE of my criteria. For instance, Phoenix clearly doesn't fit in.

Also note: My criteria aren't my criteria for liking certain band, they are more like "new music" fans' criteria for more or less automatically disliking anything that fits with them.

and

- writing all of their material themselves, having more or less complete artistic control
- musically closer to pop than rock (i.e. no heavy rock elements such as loud guitars or screaming vocals)

So is to be "influenced by The Beatles" to try to sound like their Chuck Berry-derived pop, or to be influenced by them to progress beyond that into all manner of psychedelic weirdness?

ILM Top 25 2000-2004: ALBUMS

1. Radiohead - Kid A (2000)
2. Daft Punk - Discovery (2001)
3. The Streets - Original Pirate Material (2002)
4. Dizzee Rascal - Boy In Da Corner (2003)
5. The Avalanches - Since I Left You (2001)
6. Basement Jaxx - Kish Kash (1008)
7. The Streets - A Grand Don't Come For Free (983)
8. Jay-Z - The Blueprint (948)
9. Interpol - Turn On The Bright Lights (904)
10. Basement Jaxx - Rooty (830)
11. Radiohead - Amnesiac (804)
12. Radiohead - Hail To The Thief (751)
13. Kanye West - The College Dropout (703)
14. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot (682)
15. Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun (681)
16. Belle & Sebastian - Dear Catastrophe Waitress (679)
17. Missy Elliott - Miss E...So Addictive (573)
18. Boards Of Canada - Geogaddi (566)
19. The Rapture - Echoes (554)
20. PJ Harvey - Stories From The City Stories From The Sea (545)
21. The Junior Boys - Last Exit (536)
22. Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP (529)
23. The White Stripes - Elephant (517)
24. Sigur Ros - Agaetis Byrjun (513)
25. Ghostface Killah - Supreme Clientele (494)
26. N.E.R.D. - In Search Of... (486)

Radiohead made one album, "The Bends", that fit in. That album is not in the Top 26 though.

- mainly guitar oriented
- traditonally song oriented, putting the main empasis on melodies and harmonies over rhythm

and

- writing all of their material themselves, having more or less complete artistic control
- musically closer to pop than rock (i.e. no heavy rock elements such as loud guitars or screaming vocals)

So is to be "influenced by The Beatles" to try to sound like their Chuck Berry-derived pop, or to be influenced by them to progress beyond that into all manner of psychedelic weirdness?

XTC and Martin Newell are both highly influenced by the "Sgt. Pepper" era, but they aren't Britpop.

Totally ridiculous.

So you seriously believe that the only reason ILM likes B & S is because they have a female member????

Soul
Funk
Reggae
Disco
House
Jungle
etc...

yes, i know, all the the 'rhythm' music that you don't like, but also lots of other popular music too:

Folk
Light pop / e-z listening like cliff richard etc
Musicals
Boy and girl bands
Prog (lots of keyboards!!)
etc...

All of these genres put melody of rhythm as you prefer, and all have been popular. The reason that four white men with guitars bands don't account for the majority of popular music now is because they NEVER HAVE DONE. I'm pretty sure that if you randonly picked any week in the (say) British charts between 1960 and 1990, whether singles or albums, 'traditional' rock music in your narrowly defined sense of the word would only account for a minority of the music contained within it

I mean, why should the traditional 60s band format of 4 white guys playing mainly guitars be a negative thing just because it was completely dominant in the past?
-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), May 2nd, 2005.

With the exception of the beat boom of 1964-66, when male guitar groups really did dominate.

B & S are "different" from the typical norm in a number of ways, having a female member (who also happens to sing lead a lot) is one of them.

Which makes it even absurd that by some people four white guys with guitars playing traditionally song-oriented guitar pop is automatically a bad thing just because it is "old fashion", "derivative" or whatever.

Well the fact is that said genre hardly ever meets with anything but hatred here. PARTICULARLY NOT if it is English and kind of "twee".

-- mike t-diva (mikejl...), May 4th, 2005.'

i think that probably this is when white male guitar groups accounted for their highest proportion, but i would wager still not the majority. That period was also the time of Motown, plus I bet there was a lot pre-beat boom stuff left in the charts too: Cilla and her ilk were surely having hits then. In fact, here are the 10 biggest hits of thos years:

Top Hits of 1964
1 Jim Reeves I Love You Because
2 Jim Reeves I Won't Forget You
3 Roy Orbison It's Over
4 Julie Rogers The Wedding
5 Brian Poole Someone, Someone
6 The Bachelors I Believe
7 Millie My Boy Lollipop
8 The Rolling Stones It's All Over Now
9 Roy Orbison Oh Pretty Woman
10 The Bachelors I Wouldn't Trade You For The World

Top Hits of 1965
1 The Seekers I'll Never Find Another You
2 Ken Dodd Tears
3 Horst Jankowski A Walk In The Black Forest
4 The Seekers World Of Our Own
5 Elvis Presley Crying In The Chapel
6 The Beatles Help
7 The Hollies I'm Alive
8 Marcello Minerbi Zorba's Dance
9 Roger Miller King Of The Road
10 Cliff Richard The Minute You're Gone

Top Hits of 1966
1 Jim Reeves Distant Drums
2 Frank Sinatra Strangers In The Night
3 Herb Alpert Spanish Flea
4 Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick & Tich Hold Tight
5 The Beach Boys Sloop John B
6 Nancy Sinatra These Boots Are Made For Walkin'
7 The Beach Boys God Only Knows
8 Dave Berry Mama
9 Thge Mindbenders A Groovy Kind Of Love
10 The Kinks Sunny Afternoon

Source: www.everyhit.com

1 Kinks Tired Of Waiting For You
2 Righteous Brothers You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'
3 Seekers I'll Never Find Another You
4 Del Shannon Keep Searchin'
5 Moody Blues Go Now
6 Manfred Mann Come Tomorrow
7 Val Doonican The Special Years
8 Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders Game Of Love
9 Animals Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood
10 Sounds Orchestral Cast Your Fate To The Wind
11 Cilla Black You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'
12 Shangri-Las Leader Of The Pack
13 Ivy League Funny How Love Can Be
14 Them Baby Please Don't Go
15 Gerry & The Pacemakers Ferry Cross The Mersey
16 Jim Reeves It Hurts So Much
17 Georgie Fame Yeh Yeh
18 Billy Fury I'm Lost Without You
19 Hollies Yes I Will
20 Twinkle Terry
21 Brian Poole & The Tremeloes Three Bells
22 Sandie Shaw Girl Don't Come
23 Roy Orbison Goodnight
24 Tom Jones It's Not Unusual
25 Rockin' Berries What In The World's Come Over You
26 PJ Proby Somewhere
27 Beach Boys Dance Dance Dance
28 Shadows Mary Anne
29 Beatles I Feel Fine
30 Supremes Come See About Me

But that has never been the point here anyway. Again, I stand by the fact that it seems the ILM membership (and generally everybody who is into hip-hop or dance) seems to be of the opinion that "OK, well, white guys with guitars playing melodic music is OK and all that, but there has been so much of it, now I want something else and therefore I will meet anything with hatred that isn't something else".

You ask a question. Then people answer it. Then you disqualify all their answers based on your own increasingly wierd and overly picky criteria.* Then you claim no one is "interested in checking whether music meeting this set of criteria is good or not."

You're being silly.

*like the New Pornographers or B&S having *gasp* women in the band, or Shins not being popular, when in actuality they are very popular

...in fact, since you will not name even ONE PERSON on ILX who is biased against records made by males, which I still have to say is an unbelievably strange assertion...

...could you please, at the very least, name five or ten bands that fit your insanely limited set of criteria that you think the ILX "hive-mind" would like better than Radiohead, the Streets, Dizzee Rascal, Daft Punk, Basement Jaxx, Jay-Z and Interpol (which I would like to point out feature NOT ONE WOMAN between them) if the "hive-mind" didn't have this imaginary bias?

YESS. Also, am I nuts or aren't there fucking melodies in like 90% of mainstream hip hop songs, if not 95 percent? I mean, I can play Rubberband Man on guitar and piano, and Lil Jon uses tons of synths.

Awesome.

Geir, that description fits early Spoon better than the album I tipped, Girls Can Tell. You should really listen to that album. It's got hooks galore, there's no women or black dudes, and it never gets more rock than "She Said," "Helter Skelter," or "I Want You" do. What more do you want?

And by the way, this bias you're talking about is utter bullshit. I can't remember a single time someone scorned four white guys with guitars outside the context of rockism debates; even then the scorn wasn't really directed at the bands, but at people who dismiss every band who don't meet your pre-fab criteria.

(as soon as I read the question I thought Super Furry Animals and Flaming Lips. However, Geir obviously thinks differently due to, er, some pathetic desire to be proved right even though he's totally and utterly wrongheaded about this)

Not if they refuse the entire idea behind that kind of genre, no.

Would the Smiths be the correct answer to this thread?

(xpost)

How about Electronic?

They had a very weird and unusual way of writing songs though: Morrissey wrote some poem, Johnny Marr played some improvised guitar parts, and Morissey then improvised a melody over Marr's playing, based on his own poem. Hardly song-based in a traditional way.

But they were formed (and indeed broke up) way before 1990 anyway.

Stuff such as "Girlfriend In a Coma" was great though, and there's no denying "How Soon Is Now" being a classic single.

But they appeared at a time when hipsters' hatred against guitar bands wasn't so strong anyway (in fact, slightly DIY-produced guitar bands were among the hippest things you could possibly be into if you disliked New Romantics or synthpop)

It also seems that Doves and Shins don't have that many enemies here, and they don't fail any of them either.

Other bands formed post 1990 that would fit with the criteria (and that are somewhat mainstream enough that most people will know them - and these are not neccessarily acts that I like myself, mind you) are Coldplay, Travis, Keane, Starsailor, Athlete, Thirteen Senses, Electric Soft Parade, Elbow, Semisonic, Barenaked Ladies, Dandy Warhols, Manic Street Preachers, Muse, Ash, Supergrass, Blur, Oasis, Pulp, Suede, Dodgy, Supernaturals, Hot Hot Heat, Weezer, Feeder, Turin Brakes, Embrace, Cast, Stereophonics, Ocean Colour Scene, Shed Seven, Longpigs, Northern Uproar, Kaiser Chiefs, Jellyfish, Dave Matthews Band, Hootie And The Blowfish, Fountains Of Wayne, Matchbox 20, Strangelove, Seahorses and Gene

And probably lots and lots of others, but these were the ones I remembered right now.

(and some of the others may have non-singing female members that I wasn't aware of)

Here's a local band from Minneapolis that is getting alot of hype locally. I think they might fit yr "criteria" and that you might like them:

http://www.olympichopefuls.com/

Impossible for me. I would say, judging from their genre's criteria (good, sophisticated production, nice songs, great singalong choruses, great vocal harmonies), Dodgy are absolutely brilliant, even better than more established and "hip" acts within the same genre.

Coldplay, Travis and Keane may write songs as great as they want to, but they will not impress this kind of people anyway, because they have sort of decided that the entire genre Coldplay, Travis and Keane are part of is "old" and that nobody should make that kind of music anymore now in 2005.

What?

How the fuck do Hot Hot Heat sound like The Beatles? How are they melodic and The Smiths aren't?

This is not about the kids. The kids like what they are being offered. Currently it is R&B/hip-hop (but also punkpop and pop metal to an increasing extent). It is more about hipsters who have sort of just decided that the past is the past and let the past rest in peace.

Look Geir, these guys are moving the goalposts.

At what point did you realise Stevie Wonder was black?

And how can anything be "indirectly influenced" by anything to a "large extent"?

You remind me of a time of my life in 1987 when I thought the Wedding present were the best band in the world...

Keep asking you how old you are but you won't answer I suppose?

When I first heard of him, which was around "Ebony And Ivory". That is, way before I started getting into his music.

And how can anything be "indirectly influenced" by anything to a "large extent"?

As opposed to the 50s rock'n'roll influence on The Beatles, which is a lot less obvious than Elvis Costello's Beatles influence.

And I am 34 btw.

Holy crap! Totally forgot about them! Man...I used to be all OVER "Great Divide." Even sold merch at one of their shows.

Then "Feeling Strangely Fine" came out and I wanted to barf all over the place.