Sufjan Stevens - Illinois

I'll take evil. LaBute is sometimes crudely effective, but mostly smug, obvious, and obtuse.

jmeister, if you scroll down past the jokey stuff I think this was kicked around a bit here: Someone YSI the leaked Sufjan from Oink Please

consensus seemed to be that "Casimir Pulaski Day" pwned

if you need the population's point of view, see:

thomas kinkade
arnold friberg
james dobson

imagine a strange amalgam of new/orange county cultural conservatism + old/rural conservatism + zombie movie + nazi aesthetic sensibility + other wacky shit and you've got Utah mormon culture.

lynch and cronenberg are some kind of genius and this helps a lot if you are gonna tackle morality, good, evil, etc, in your films. plus, their ideas about good and evil and their depictions of it are often mythical and grander in scope than the miserablism of Labute and Solondz who attempt to stylize a more mundane depiction of the banality of evil and, in effect, give great lines to assholes and creeps who in real life are never so eloquent or self-aware. their morality plays (and Labute's and Solondz's stuff reminds me more of theatre than good cinema) seem to be based on contempt and they go too far in stacking the decks in favor of ickiness and a general feeling that original sin is the bulding block of character, whereas Lynch and Cronenberg for all their fear of the body are also fascinated by them (bodies-sometimes in the clinical sense, but also in their inherent beauty) which in turn fascinates ME when i watch their movies. but movies like happiness and in the company of men don't make me think about much at all. they are more like car crashes that you pass on the road. they make me wince and give me a desire to keep moving. they are like comic book versions of reality/realism with all the good stuff that a comic book fabulism can engender taken out. their creators seem to want to elevate pettiness to the level of grand opera, but they(the creators) usually just end up looking nearly as petty and mean for being so myopic and rigid. then again, maybe i just don't think they are talented enough to make me care about their visions.i never feel like their shock tactics have anything behind them. they feel empty. ugly for ugly's sake. that's not enough for me. all those movies you mentioned make for good discussion though, so maybe i'm wrong and they are towering film giants. i'll let history decide.given the choice, though, i'll take Candyman every time.

-- scott seward (skotro...), May 21st, 2003.

Does anyone like the last track as much as me?!? (A lot)

Josh OTM re: Sufjan needs to self-edit but I kind of like his enthusiasm for putting out all he has. I think a few more tracks along the lines of John Wayne Gacy, UFO or Casimir.. subbed for the longer almost orchestrated songs might have helped the flow and "digestability". It might just create too much up and down in the track list too and that could be just as exhausting.

http://www.chattablogs.com/quintus/archives/019666.html

I liked Michigan well enough but there's really not a bad song to be had this time around. Especially Seers (sic) Tower, John Wayne Gacy, and of course the rollicking good title track.

And I'm really curious what Pitchfork's going to think of this one -- they loved "Michigan," saying something to the tune of "no album has evoked the spirit of a state as accurately". But this time, the subject matter happens to be Pitchfork's home state, so they'll probably be a lot more discerning.

But I will venture a guess. My Pitchfork rating prediction for Illinois is: 8.0

i can usually take the tender parts - but sometimes it does seem very precious i guess.

SKOT U STILL HAVE NOT HEARD THE SUNLANDIC TWINZ, HAVE U?

That seems like an odd comment. Amanda Petrusich reviewed it, and I think she lives in Portland or somewhere. Not in Chicago, at any rate.

Last, the second half of the song "Come on feel the Illinoise" ("I cried myself to sleep last night . . .") is better than anything on Michigan.

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0532,sylvester,66665,22.html

What is the deal with the fixation on his Christianity? Only among godless music writers?

(Don't answer that. Or do.)

Anyway, I hope he does something special here. I love that record.

God, it's annoying. Next they'll be telling me L. Cohen is Jewish and often engages with material from the Torah. And yeah, "Casimir Pulaski Day" is extraordinary. Gorgeous and sad and keenly observed and immediate and heartbreaking. Like a great short story, but more so.

It also seems like the best possible counterargument to people who fixate on the Christian angle - this isn't Yay Jesus! christian music; it's the music of a engaged, intelligent artist who grapples quite expressly with his chosen faith.

In addition to absolutely nailing the experience of young love in all its tentative and consuming contradiction, "Casimir Pulaski Day" expresses and personalizes the difficulty of faith - faith not because of God's greatness, kindness, sundry miracles and blah blah blah but in spite of God's apparent indifference to our suffering and in the face of God's impossible demands.

If more christian music were like that, it might be less of a punchline genre. But then it also wouldn't sell nearly as well. Folks be likin' platitudes.

And yeah, I meant general hype - xpost.

L. Cohen is Jewish and often sings about Jesus! Well, was Jewish.

All that said, the UFO Song, "John Wayne Gacy" and "Casimir Pulaski Day" (especially) are phenomenal.

I mean here's the conclusion:

And in my best behavior
I am really just like him
Look beneath the floorboards
For the secrets I have hid

Honestly, now. "I treat people like shit sometimes" vs. "I murdered a bunch of teenage boys" - no, Sufjan, you don't actually relate to Gacy in that way, and you kind of minimize the monstrosoity of murder by imagining that your feeling-bad-about-yourself is somehow comparable to fuckiin' child rape & murder. Kind of the most ignoble poetic impulse imaginable at work there, I'd say.

love the way he sings this part:

Find the few living things
Rotting fast in their sleep of the dead
Twenty-seven people, even more
They were boys with their cars, summer jobs
Oh my God

How about because of melody?

(this album's great)

(hi from norway)

"i feel every human has the potential for murder" - i don't think anyone else right now would have the balls to say this kinda thing. this is one reason why sufjan is not boring. but i hope he doesn't become too didactic.

yeah, i've noticed that. i think part of it matches up with what i've been going on about in some of the ILE threads about religion.

when the group most vocal about God & their faith for the last 30 years is a collection of reactionary fuckheads, expressions of faith & whatnot tend to get associated with them. This is coupled with the fact that religion for many, many people is a deeply private, personal thing(which kinda goes along with the Jesus warning against those who pray too loudly in public).

dude don't be lame-o, you're shooting barrels with no fish in em here. this is ILM not the record section in walmart. and w/r/t to john wayne gacy, i don't think anybody's saying the only way to read that last stanza is Sufjan Only

hey john, it's for this øya festival http://www.oyafestivalen.com

but i disagree and think you oversimplify--this isn't "skeletons in the closet", it's not actual evil deeds, just the propensity for doing them. i'll admit it's a bit pornographic ("i have the potential to be a serial killer" is blunt), but the way the music's constructed, how the duet drops and just leaves him, and then 30 seconds of silence, and that HUFF, jeez. i mean this redeems any strictly lyrical take

Brut Boogaloo
Don Juan Dracula
Hopalong Knut

so how was it good? do i need to LIGHTEN up?

I d/l'ed this record yesterday because I haven't heard a note of it and finally decided to hear what the fuss was about. I'll be back to comment on it at some point.

Funny how people interpret things so differently. The way he sings it sent chills down my spine. It's one of those tiny little moments I want to repeat again and again, but I know too much and it would kill the response.

yes yes YES! "no matter how good the material is" -- it's not that great. but it's reduced even further by the length. gah. if Illinois was a four-song EP of "John Wayne Gacy", "UFOs at Dawn...", "Casimir Pulaski Day" and "Chicago", it would be killer. but as it is, i give it a 7. waaay too repetetive and flabby.

And, to add a little something to the "John Wayne Gacy" discussion, when he says "And in my best behavior / I am really just like him" -- am I the only one to interpret this as, "And in my best behavior, I am really like John Wayne when he was also at his best behavior" i.e. what made all his neighbors adore him, etc?

Excellent. The rebellion will soon be quelled, just as I predicted.

well, but the (non)rhyme line is "look beneath the floorboards/for the secrets I have hid," which suggests that what he means is that Gacy & himself both have deep dark secrets, which is deluded narcissistic garbage

Him and hid are assonant.

which suggests that what he means is that Gacy & himself both have deep dark secrets, which is deluded narcissistic garbage

It's just a song, pal. I don't see anything deluded or narcissistic about it.

And I think all of his answers in that pitchfork interview were interesting and make me respect the guy even more.

eh, to me it's just that he could have deep dark secrets just like Gacy, not necessarily that he does.

You don't say.

Gacy was arrested on sodomy charges in Nevada long before the killings in Illinois, and famously, those charges were what led the police to suspect him. Because of that fact, Gacy the serial killer and Gacy the homosexual have become inextricably linked. Sufjan's song, to my ears, only re-inforces this association.

Oh well, he writes hundreds of songs, I guess. I like "Chicago".

I do.

had the weird inclination to get this recently after rehearing a couple of tracks. really pretty good overall. The things that annoyed me about it still annoy me, but there's more good than bad.

Jacksonville is a good jam

Good disc, albeit overrated. I'm sure it will pop up a lot in the forthcoming avalanche of "Best of the Decade" lists.

it sounds so tidy though. it's nice on the quiet bits, where you can hear it's nicely recorded in a room and all, but his arrangements are beautiful and he takes all the energy out of horns and stuff by making it too neat.

Yeah, the arrangements are stunning but too controlled and lacking any edge. The lyrics, by contrast, are often sharp and edgy, but the delivery of them is so precious and twee that it blunts the impact (once in a while it all comes together, though, e.g., Casimir Pulaski Day and Romulus (from the Michigan disc)).

At this rate, BTW, he's never going to finish the 50-states project. Poor Idaho will never have a Sufjan Stevens album made for it.

classic album

most of my favorite sufjan songs are just him and the piano, consequently "concerning the ufo sighting..." is my favorite on the album

his big Arrangements on illinois, stuff like "casimir pulaski day" and "jacksonville", aren't nearly as good or as affecting as when he's just singing w/ spare accompaniment like on "concerning the ufo sighting" or "john wayne gacy jr" or the verses of "chicago"

then again im not a huge fan of the banjo in general so take it with a grain etc

i kind of like the syrupy schmaltzy whispery ones, but they do sort of undermine how good they are just by being all touchy feely and cloying. it wasn't til i saw him with the big funkadelic angelwing-clad orchestra that i got how great the arrangements were. it'll be good when majesty snowbird comes out.

xp i think they are - i just don't think the minimal, reined in recording does them justice. i want to use words like 'bombastic'.

Well, I don't mean to take my point too far. Stevens is very talented. I just wish that he'd be a little rougher -- and a little less ornate -- with his arrangements and delivery.

i agree with Sufjan = best at his most minimal.

though Palisades is a great track, my favourite on Illinois.

i really though he'd work faster though..

I really hate the minimal stuff - would rather hear him drowned out by awesome crazy arrangements

As long as Wyoming has an ode to the polygon, I'm happy.

What will be the name of the next Sufjan Stevens album?

I finally have a couple of Sufjan Stevens LPs, for the first time. I got them from a friend's hard drive and now they are on my computer. They are this Illinoise one, and The Avalanche.

I have heard a lot about this character over the years, but never quite got it. I gather that he has great ambition and writes in vast thematic sets of songs (this xmas set mentioned above - did I hear somewhere that it was a 5 CD set of 100 songs, or something) - and I cannot deny the appeal of this, or that it tends to impress me. And he seems to have musical talent, working with lots of elaborate instruments beyond the rock norm.

What frustrates a bit so far, though - where are the tunes? The great ambitious scheme doesn't seem to involve a lot of great songs. A lot of doodling and noodling, some very long pieces, some very short pieces ... not a lot of smashing marvellous moving songs. Maybe two or three tunes so far ... 'Chicago' seems to be the big number, and I think it sounds magnificent, but the fact that there are about 4 versions of it here suggests that it is easily the high point of these records. Maybe all this is why when I asked Stevie T once if SS was good and worth listening to, he answered in the negative.

I don't know much about SS yet, or get it too much, and I am probably still capable of being impressed, so any more guidance about him would be welcome.

What frustrates a bit so far, though - where are the tunes?

I agree with this partially. However, there are a few gems to be found. Off Illinoise, anyway, "The Man of Metropolis Who Steals Our Hearts" is fab and "Decatur" as well is good, in addition to "Chicago". Sufjan Stevens is someone, like Cat Power, who mostly writes songs that consist of the same chord progression throughout. The hooks tend from a come from a change in the vocal melody or a riff etc., rather than chord changes. This can be monotonous, but it sometimes works very well.

I liked Michigan a lot better than Illinois. Never listened to those Illinois outtakes because, y'know, I didn't like the album proper all that much, so...

For what it's worth, "Predatory Wasp of the Palisades" is my overlooked Illinois gem.

My favorite song on Illinois is "Jackson" since he goes outside his comfort zone to give it a bit of groove. Michigan is a lot better though--the first half of that album has a really nice flow between his ballads and his longer-form stuff.

Where has this guy been lately?

I just listened to 'Decatur' and don't like it that much. And then the last 4-second 'whoo' at the end of the applause gets a whole frigging track name to itself? For goodness' sake.

Maybe the great thing about this LP to me, as someone very distant from it all, is how 'Chicago' in the middle towers over the rest, and maybe this is meant to be mimetic of Chicago's grandeur next to the rest of the state? Or at least: he seems to have felt that in such a project, Chicago would need something special.

'Chicago' in the middle towers over the rest, and maybe this is meant to be mimetic of Chicago's grandeur next to the rest of the state?

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!! "I'll just throw a load of half-assed crap together for the sake of symbolism!" I honestly hope he put that forward as an explanation. But I reiterate, Man of Metropolis is the towering track of the album, at least for me.

That track is playing now and I don't know if I like it so much. I certainly don't think it matches 'Chicago'. Is 'Chicago' itself the load of half-assed crap you mean, or is that the whole LP?

I feel like I need to give this artist as much of a chance as possible - he surely has something, and more than a lot of other acts. But he does seem lacking in the focus that would produce great songs - he seems to have allowed himself to become gleefully lost in creating fillers, diversions and minor works with long titles.

Put it on iTunes, make a playlist that ignores all songs less than 90 seconds long, and you've got a great album. The one about zombies is the best.

Is 'Chicago' itself the load of half-assed crap you mean, or is that the whole LP?

The latter. I don't think it's all half-assed crap, mind, just in terms of your interpretation of it. I just find it amusing how you think it's a "great thing" that the album is for the most part dull as dishwater, merely because it conveys a sense of Chicago's superiority to the rest of the state. That's a pretty esoteric level on which to enjoy an album.

CASIMIR PULASKI DAY YOU FUCKERS

Also, Seven Swans is prolly a stronger album overall than either Illinois or Michigan,

I now understand your amusement, Freedom.

I worked pretty hard at listening to this yesterday, and am now going to take a break from it. But SO many people have said they prefer the Michigan LP that I wonder if I should actually buy that.

i haven't listened to him in a while. but i remember from the last time that i couldn't take his soft, wimpy singing style anymore. and the sameness of his songs. and the production with all the strings(?) and flutes and stuff. the euphony. it was all too much. i purchased michigan when it came out and i liked especially the older stuff before he became popular. here is what i wrote a while ago when i discovered him for myself. i don't know if those audio links still work though.

Yeah, it took me a while to like the voice, or to not actively dislike it at any rate.

So many people on this thread said they liked Michigan better than Illinoise, that ... I bought the Michigan CD yesterday!!!

It had better be good !!!

i remember from the last time that i couldn't take his soft, wimpy singing style anymore. and the sameness of his songs. and the production with all the strings(?) and flutes and stuff. the euphony. it was all too much.

Yeah in late 2005 this hit me really really hard for some reason, possibly because I was in a deeply corny indie fuxx0r period of my life, but a few months later I couldn't listen to it anymore and didn't put it on again until this summer. I don't love it anymore, but I appreciate the delicacy of some of the arrangements and still think there are at least 6 or 7 really amazing songs.

And frankly I'm a little surprised at the John Wayne Gacy "lol Soofyan you /= a serial killer" discussion upthread. He's clearly not suggesting moral equivalence, he's saying "humans are pretty fucked up, huh?"

all his strings & arrangements = amazing
production and recording of strings & arrangements = not amazing.

it's all so tidy. seeing him live's like watching a disney orchestra or something, but it's way too flat on record.

There's a new 'Songs for Christmas' CD, voume eight, that's leaked.

It's entitled "Astral Inter Planet Space Captain Christmas Infinity Voyage".

Illinoise has probably been the most ridiculously slow-burning album for me. I learn to love a new song from it about once every seven months. It'll probably be an imperishable masterpiece by about 2013.

I think you are right. I've had these albums for years, and I always forget to listen to them. Too much NPR / mom-and-dad approval almost ruined them for me. But each time I listen to them I regret not listening more.

I think the songwriting is much better than you think it is on first listen. I enjoy the pastiche and the research that went into it.

OK - but what (things, plural?) is it a pastiche of, musically?

It's been a while since I've listened to it, but some of the longer tracks seem inspired by other pop songs. I couldn't specifically place the references.

Pastiche of ... Steve Reich/minimalist composition? and... midwestern folki-ness?

I don't think of it as a pastiche at all. I mean, I hear echoes of this song or this approach here and there, but listening to Illinois isn't a referential trip down memory lane. It comes across as a distinct, individual work with its own musical ideas and aesthetic vision, and while the endlessly reiterated comparisons to Steve Reich are valid in a ballpark sense, they're not of much use beyond that. I hear at least as much influence from Vince Guaraldi's Charlie Brown Christmas score, and from the music of educational films/exhibits of the 50s and 60s.

With Hoos in my long-run reaction to the record. Went through a period of intense fascination with the record when it came out, quickly falling in and out of love with almost every song, but I find I no longer have any interest in it. I'm not sure why this should be, but it actively annoys and even repels me at this point. Christmas records and the Avalanche didn't help.

yeah a friend of mine loaned me the xmas box set to rip and i can't stomach any of it

the christmas box really works best on the first short disc for me. (I thought the Avalanche was pretty good though, a true b-side record though)

Congratulations!

http://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/lists/2009/11/the-best-albums-of-the-decade.html?p=5

5. Bright Eyes: I’m Wide Awake, It’s Morning

I'm okay with Illinois being No. 1, but WTF Paste Magazine?

but WTF Paste Magazine

I say this all the time, list or no list.

wtf is paste magazine

Now in its eighth year of publication, Paste magazine has become the most celebrated entertainment magazine in the U.S.

By whose account?

god too many available jokes

xpost:

http://www.pastemagazine.com/paste/2008/10/about-paste.html

Well, that settles that. I guess The Avett Brothers' I and Love and You is the ninth best disc of the decade.

5. Bright Eyes: I’m Wide Awake, It’s Morning

Oh man, ILX hasn't even mentioned I’m Wide Awake, It’s Morning since 2005! I bought that album at the recommendation of a free alternative weekly and sold it back in shame the next day.

is that the electron one or the alt-country one? oh wait, doesn't fucking matter.

Sadly, no-one will buy it from me.

And I've tried.

(xp)

It's the one with this memorable spoken intro:

So there was this woman and she was on an airplane, and she was flying to meet her fiancé seaming high above the largest ocean on planet earth. She was seated next to this man she had tried to start conversations, but the only thing she had really heard him say was to order his Bloody Mary. She was sitting there and she was reading this really arduous magazine article about a third world country that she couldn’t even pronounce the name of. And she was feeling very bored and despondent. And then suddenly there was this huge mechanical failure and one of the engines gave out, and they started just falling thirty-thousand feet, and the pilots on the microphone and he’s saying “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, oh my god... I'm sorry” and apologizing. And she looks at the man and says “Where are we going?” and he looks at her and he says “We’re going to a party. It’s a birthday party. It’s your birthday party. Happy birthday darling. We love you very, very, very, very, very, very, very much.” And then he starts humming this little tune, it kind of goes like this: 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4

I hate that spoken-word intro so much.

i really dig that record still! i think? haven't played it in 4 years.

i actually do like the one w/ emmylou singing backup vox.

I was actually mad at both Emmylou and Arab Strap for even associating themselves with the guy.

I haven't been much in the mood for alt country/folky/America stuff for much of the decade, but it's nice to have a reference for some things I've missed, even if they wouldn't even make my top 1,000. People complain too much.

Name: I Love Music
Description: People Complain Too Much

I hate that spoken-word intro so much.

― Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, November 3, 2009 10:41 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I've never heard it, but I'm suddenly imagining it being read by Laurie Anderson.

All of the Bright Eyes spoken word intros are horrible. The best part of him ditching that moniker is that he seems to have left those behind as well.

After the cover with Superman on it got recalled, I ordered a copy through a local store as a collectible. I told the girl behind the counter that it said "Come On Feel the Illinoise" on said cover, and she said, "It's pronounced Ill-in-NOY." (In her defense, I do look retarded.)

Yeah, the spoken word intro to I'm Wide Awake is fucking annoying. But I think the record contains all of his best songs. The shit I heard from Cassadaga and most of the first s/t aren't nearly as good.

I really, really like Digital Ash too, especially "Easy/Lucky/Free."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozuwUlX7MI

Anyway, going to see this dude & co in a few hours. Will report back later.

is it connor oberst & the foggy beard mountain band or w/e the fuck they're called?

Best thing Conor Oberst ever did is his self-titled solo record. That's far better than I'm Wide Awake It's Morning, at least in my humble opinion.

HOOS: I'm seeing the Monsters of Folk.

From P4k: Sufjan Stevens Calls the 50 States Album Project "Such a Joke"

http://pitchfork.com/news/37026-sufjan-stevens-calls-the-50-states-album-project-such-a-joke/

Stevens told Paste, "The whole premise was such a joke, and I think maybe I took it too seriously. I started to feel like I was becoming a cliché of myself."

. . .and. . .

Elsewhere in the interview, Stevens expresses what sounds like a total lack of interest in the album as an art form: "I'm wondering, why do people make albums anymore when we just download? Why are songs like three or four minutes, and why are records 40 minutes long? They're based on the record, vinyl, the CD, and these forms are antiquated now. So can't an album be eternity, or can't it be five minutes? ... I no longer really have faith in the album anymore. I no longer have faith in the song."

Album's dead y'all.

Sounds like Sufy is working on a concept album ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF THE ALBUM.
Srsly tho, of all the people to be moaning about the death of the album, he seems like the least likely -- I mean, all of the attention Illinois got was because it was, like, an album, right?

http://www.deanjackson.dj/nameanagram/index.php?n=sufjan+stevens

Just Seven Fans.

I don't understand how he makes the leap from noting that it's easy to release music of any length with the internet to saying "I no longer have faith in the song."

Maybe he listened to "Chicago" again.

Well somebody oughta finish.the 50 States project, even if this bedpan doesn't.

it could be like the indie WPA

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joeparker/6004383186/in/photostream

it was for freedom

i made a lot of mistakes iirc

in my best behavior
i am really just like him

10th anniversary edition. feels weird it's been almost *11 years* since this record came out. i liked carrie & lowell but find it too fucking depressing to revisit. even though i have a copy of the vinyl with a balloon sticker covering Superman, i feel tempted to cop this reissue with the new cover and the colored vinyl... oii

http://cdn4.pitchfork.com/news/62231/4be585a7.jpg

http://pitchfork-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/content/SufjanBM1_new.jpg

i hadn't thought about this album in quite a long time until i saw it's snuck into the all-time top 100 on RYM now, seems like there's an effort out there to canonize it. i'm ok with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfT-Zj-cZv8

headline of the year tbh

https://www.pastemagazine.com/music/sufjan-stevens/sufjan-stevens-piss-poems-found-by-penn-state-student

feels on brand