People who talk about music but don't own a record player: C/D

I own a record player and records, but it's hardly "proof" that I really like music---or deserve to talk about it (the thread's suggestion)?

Sure, it'd be a shame to always have to wait (sometimes forever) for good music to get reissued on CD--but I'd say the kind work of record-owning folk to "rip" the O.O.P. vinyl and proliferate it via file sharing is a very good thing. With O.O.P. stuff, undercutting the silly fetishisation/eBay price gouging is a good thing.

I love the artefactural quality of records, and I'm pretty sure (unless someone can provide a really convincing environmental argument) that I hope "records" (CDs, whatever) always exist. But the idea that dusty old records, played (frequently) on "hip" thrift shop crappy record players with absurd motor noise and current buzz, sound "better" than CDs (on the average CD mini-hi-fi) is just silly.

Records were the main medium for music for 70 years, during which time more music was released than anyone can get their head around. You have to be a direct part of that to really understand what recorded music means. Not everything worthwhile is on CD and mp3, not by a thousand miles.

Do you have any idea the kind of vinyl you can score on Ebay for basically nothing?

I must have missed the part of the thread where someone said that dusty records played on a crappy turntable sound better than CDs. and you might want to look for a loose wire or something if you've got "current buzz". and for heavens sake, get rid of that absurd motor. that's why i never play records on my speedboat. that outboard drowns out my jamz!

Paunchy, could you name five records that were never released on another format that are essential to "talking about music?" Could I listen to these at a friend's house and still get the right experience, or do I need to have a turntable at my place to really get the most out of it?

Do you have any idea the kind of vinyl you can score on Ebay for basically nothing?

If your point was that it's a shame that people sometimes intentionally avoid owning a record player and thereby limit themselves, perhaps your thread has been poorly entitled. Because it comes across that you're judging the innate capacities of those individuals to appreciate music; or, sillier still, their right to have opinions about music. Which is indeed snobbery of the most shallow kind. Despite what you may think, people can listen broadly and richly without owning a record player--though it's a useful tool to have available. What you posited sounds like yet another bizarre and unneccesary dichotomisation/comparison--that the record player is "the" key to musical appreciation.

I have problems with the CD (mainly its propensity to cause people to put out over-long albums). But ultimately, isn't it about the music, not the medium? And you'd be hard pressed at this point to convince anyone that, outside of certain neglected fields, 20 years of the CD hasn't covered a lot of territory, and 10 years of the mp3 isn't filling in a lot of the gaps. I know--I fill them myself; and I can't be arsed with people who say I'm doing listners a disservice by enabling them to hear things that they'd have to pay what I paid to hear, simply because of the medium.

Unfortunately, 95% of the young people I've met who "only buy vinyl" do so with a very self-conscious desire to be seen as hip (by whom?) and to "stand out," not because they actually prefer the crackly sound or cheaper prices of thrift shop records--many of them are buying new indie rock or digital electronic music (ha) or new 180-gram jazz repressings.

I like CDs primarily because I can fit the 2500 I own in my place, and wouldn't be able to fit 2500 LPs; and because I don't have to ritualistically dust them every time I want to hear music.

cds can sound pretty crappy on cheap systems, they can sound sterile and plasticky.

Any medium can sound crappy on cheap systems--records sound no better on cheap record players. "Warmth" is bullshit, when you're talking some sub $500 turntable run through a thrift shop solid-state amp, the sort most "I only buy vinyl" hipsters own. I'm a traditionalist in many ways--but because of actual function at the average person's level of experience.

Don't pretend to be obtuse.

Of COURSE you need your own record player. Listening to music at a friend's house never equals listening by your lonesome.

Five records? I could name a hundred. I don't want to type that much, though. Either you get my point or you're hostile to it, so I won't bother.

Yes, but you see, right now there's also more CDs, and certainly more mp3s about than anyone can get their head around. I don't really *need* the added agravation of ANOTHER medium where there's 10000000000000000 records that I totally should own.

You're right. All I'm sayin' is, dude, buy a record player.

Turns out that from the age of 13 to 16, when all I and my friends had were hundreds of taped-over fifth-generation cassettes, we didn't have the moral right to discuss them!

HANG ON THIS IS THE WORST THREAD EVER

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You're right. All I'm sayin' is, dude, buy a record player.

Well, dude, if that was your point, you probably shouldn't've titled your thread in an obviously over-simplified, intentionally incendiary way. Because I doubt many ILMers would disagree with the more reasonable "buy a record player" concept--I'd bet most already have.

Yes! Finally someone understands.

Buy a record player. Best musical investment you'll ever make, money-back guarantee.

Haha this begs one of my materialist snobberies to assert itself. . . While I love making O.O.P./overpriced stuff available to people to undercut the scarcity/price gouging. . . I also admit that I have an irrational need to have "supported the artist" or whatever, for anything that is in print. Meaning, I don't have an "mp3 collection" that is exclusively mp3, other than maybe 40 LPs and 100+/- singles that are beyond my economic means. . .

But I tend to think of this as my particular hang-up, not a sign of my musico-moral superiority ; )

Conductor is a better benchmark than format.

I had and have no intention of talking about classical music. I would be in over my head immediately.

Paunchy, you knew your over-stated title would turn the whole thing into piss-taking, right? ; )

classical nutz tend to like both. audiophile nutz don't think twice about dropping a 1000 bucks for a choice record. Classical CDs never reach those heights. maybe in 50 years. if they don't disintegrate.

actually, this isn't true. cuz 50 years from now, new technologies will render older CDs obsolete. for audiophiles anyway.

yes, i DO answer my own posts.

stop buying crappy copies of records! it's as simple as that. although, i do understand that CDs can point out flaws in even an almost flawless record. So buy flawless records!

"I like cracks and pops."

I hate them and anyone who likes them is probably a hipster who spends too much time in thrift stores trying to impress everybody. Good vinyl is not hard to find!

I never have either. But I've heard some. I don't download stuff. I listen to records and Cds and for copying, I make tapes! Tapes sound great!

I don't mean big, awful, sound ruining cracks and pops! But a little ambience in your Caruso. It's flavor.

Buy me a bigger apartment first, dude.

In terms of sound-quality-to-quantity-of-listeners, the CD may well be the high-water mark, as things move toward compression/downloading. Though perhaps not, as bandwidth increases and HD space balloons, maybe non-lossy download/storage will become the norm.

I mean, won't companies eventually have to come up with a way to get listeners to "upgrade" their digital file format, just like with their physical record format? haha

But it's hard for me to imagine large amounts of people ever placing a premium on sound enough to want something *better* than CD quality--unlike with HDTV, most peoples ears seem to be less discriminatory than their eyes. . . I wonder if science backs that up at all. ..

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stop buying crappy copies of records! it's as simple as that. although, i do understand that CDs can point out flaws in even an almost flawless record. So buy flawless records!

I buy records when there's no other option available--in other words, when scarcity has become the driving force, in which case it's usually catch as catch can. Even pristine vintage records, never played, sound poppy/crackly to my ears. I don't live in a dustbowl, either--but you have to clean even pristine vinyl.

I never have either. But I've heard some. I don't download stuff. I listen to records and Cds and for copying, I make tapes! Tapes sound great!

You're beinf facetious, right? I have plenty of romantic memories, making mix-tapes and all that--but even on the expensive metal blah blah tapes I bought, sound quality was pretty spotty (again, on the average, not high-end, tape deck).

How big do you imagine a record player is? They have electric parts nowadays, you know.

I think YOU need a new turntable! There is no reason why a "pristine" record should sound poppy/crackly!

nah, maxell, high bias, you know, sounds fine. i have a pretty good tape deck. you'd have to ask someone on ilm who i have sent a tape to if they sound okay though. maybe my ears are broken.

Unintended by the artist, though. To me its interesting how in peoples minds, crappy ("charming") recording quality on old 78s-era music has become "part of the music;" whereas records were essentially "capturing live performance" at that time, and live performance sounded about as clean and clear then as (unmiked, unamped) it would if performed today.

C/D: music that intentionally puts vinyl cracks and pops into the recording for aesthetic purposes (I've done this, but the intent was a demarcated reference to a song passing from broad stereo/dubby sound into clean, mono)

C/D: CD reissuing clearly taken from vinyl, a la The Fall; also, CD reissuing taken from vinyl where masters were not available, to which *no* pop/crack removal has been done.

x-post:

How big do you imagine a record player is? They have electric parts nowadays, you know.

Don't pretend to be obtuse.

I think YOU need a new turntable! There is no reason why a "pristine" record should sound poppy/crackly!

For example, pulled a couple 3 Swimmers records out of shrinkwrap, clearly unplayed. Put it on--still dusty enough to need to be brushed.

I see the point you are trying to make here, but "vinyl" = "an antiquated product that has been replaced by other formats that are superior in every way" is a misnomer, and this thread is full of that sort of negative attitude toward vinyl.

this is fine. just don't blame the record for your less-than-perfect CD copy cuz you couldn't take the time to find a better copy somewhere. don't blame the record! (i have that tattooed on my arm)

xpost to me ... kind of like this ... people who think that the main difference between CD and vinyl is a few cracks and pops, this being the key reason why some people prefer vinyl, C/D?

It's not the player that takes up the space, it's the records I'd play on it (currently dwelling in several trunks in my mother's basement out on Long Island and in a mini-storage space in Lower Manhattan).

That said, if you're talking about buying new albums on vinyl instead of cd, you're being an assclown. The prices are about the same so there's no specific listening advantage, unless you're planning on using the records to DJ. This thread would make a lot more sense if Paunchy had particular points instead of some vague notion of these vinyl discs holding some sort of magic. Make points! Defend them!

I'm going with "possibly classic" for the topic as a whole. Unless you're talking about "music" as some canonical concept where you need an understanding of EVERYTHING to have a good discussion (and I seriously doubt you've listened to everything!) then it's possible to talk about music from owning a radio!

In practical terms of the music (not the cultural significance of the record buying/historical/listening process), and to my (apparently solid-state) ears, and on my non-audiophile record player, unintentional artefacts are the primary difference. I guess I just don't hear the "warmth" of vinyl or the "flatness" of CDs. Educate me as to the other big differences.

Why do people buy "digitally remastered" vinyl?

Hahaha awesome. C/D: people who say, "yeah, I like music," but pretty much just listen to the radio/video?

I'd be willing to bet that the most (illegally, legally) downloaded music is the same stuff that's pimped on corporate radio--the "mp3 revolution" has only increased music geekery by 1 or 2 percent. ; )

Since I seem like I'm already set on creating some points that could have been used to support this thread...

Vinyl makes you physically interact with the recorded medium in order to continue listening to an album. In a way, there's an art of sequencing that's been diminished or lost in the introduction of long-playing (or in the case of mp3, nearly infinitely long-playing) albums. Any album that was originally well-sequenced for vinyl reproduction is going to have breaking points when you have to flip over the record. The same applies to tapes, multiple CD sets, etc, although length is less of an issue in those cases. Instead of listening to an album as songs and as a whole, you can quantify it as songs, sides, and as a whole. It's just another breakdown.

ask around town. maybe you can find someone with a good stereo and some good records that will let you into their house. you never know.

This is OTM. I'm talking about the sheer amount music available on vinyl that isn't available anywhere else. And the amazing economy of buying music this way -- even when it's rare vinyl, it's usually cheaper than a rare Japanese import CD.

And anyway, fuck all that. Walk into a shitty used record store and buy something -- anything. The Osmonds. The Carpenters. What-the-fuck-ever. You'll pay less than a dollar and learn something about pop, instead of paying $16 and learning nothing about whatever it is you think you're an expert in.

Talking with a friend elsewhere at the moment, she is putting forward (in a way that I take as earnest) the "romance factor" of buying music--old, or new--on vinyl (in addition to the "sounds better than CD" argument).

Anyone willing to stand up for the "romance factor" of vinyl, as something that would make you prefer to buy vinyl over CDs?

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And anyway, fuck all that. Walk into a shitty used record store and buy something -- anything. The Osmonds. The Carpenters. What-the-fuck-ever. You'll pay less than a dollar and learn something about pop, instead of paying $16 and learning nothing about whatever it is you think you're an expert in.

I think I'm managing to listen broadly enough without wasting time/space on the Osmonds. Buying something just because it's cheap doesn't mean you've gotten value for your money; hearing something/anything is not inherently an expanding process. Discrimination is essential, as long as it's not a set-in-stone prejudice. But all that has little to do with vinyl, really. . .

For me, as a person who changes cities, even "cheaper" vinyl eventually becomes a very real consideration of the cost of moving/storing it all from place to place. I also don't use much air conditioning or heating--which, I assume, would not be good for a large collection of vinyl (or even the vinyl I have, probably).

Hahahaha. Ok, you weren't pretending. . .

ask around town. maybe you can find someone with a good stereo and some good records that will let you into their house. you never know.

Also, there is lots of good vinyl vs CD vs mp3 comparison/discussion on these threads:

How are Hi-Fi Magazines Dealing with MP3s?
100 albums that sound better on vinyl..

Personally, I have a slight distrust of anyone who claims to be a big music fan but doesn't own any vinyl or show any interest in it. It's kind of like meeting a guy who doesn't drink beer or watch sports ... maybe "distrust" isn't the right word, but it makes you think "OK, this is a bit strange, no?".

Surely, there's an ageist element here -- in another 20 years, maybe vinyl will be even less a part of the music-lover's vocabulary.

Audiophiles have classist overtones. The record store around the corner that sells anything in the world used, for next to no money -- that has nothing to do with class. That's all about getting music.

You guys like music, right?

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It's kind of like meeting a guy who doesn't drink beer or watch sports ... maybe "distrust" isn't the right word, but it makes you think "OK, this is a bit strange, no?".

I don't drink or watch sports, but I don't feel the need to tell anyone else they shouldn't. Nor do I feel the need to respect anyone who feels the need to label me for not partaking myself. They don't have to associate with me, but they can also keep their mouths shut as do I.

-- Paunchy Stratego (fluxion2...), July 17th, 2005.

Everything is about class. And I only listen to The Fall.

i can assure you that in my case the cheaper prices are a major factor in my decision.

xpost: But do you listen to sports on the radio, at least?

i have friends that i've tried to encourage to buy record players, since i think it does open up another world music-wise, but some people are more "on the go" music listeners and don't have time to sit around and listen to the vinyl they've collected. hell, i don't have that time! so if people like records, cool, if not, cool.

I still relish time spent *just* listening to music--but even then, I like it to be literally just the music. Thre's not an emotional/nostalgic appeal to me in preparing the vinyl, flipping it over half way, etc.

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i went back to the salvation army the other day and they had the same 20 vikki carr LPs they had before.

Well, in case you're ever uncertain whether you're meeting your "crap" quota, and your opinions may be in danger of unstable unreliability levels. . .

Fuck cleaning something everytime i want to listen to it.

All in good fun. Except maybe you?

http://www.yoursongscollectibles.com/item-542.jpg

hehe

Actually, if "people who don't know music theory who make music with people who do: C/D" were the question, I'd go big up C.

There's digital mastering and then there's digital mastering. Studios these days are using much better digital recording techniques than were available when the CD format was invented. The information often gets dumbed-down when it's mastered for CD. The vinyl, in these cases, could sound better than the CD.

"you'd have to ask someone on ilm who i have sent a tape to if they sound okay though."

They sound great!

In the sense that a record is like a high-quality negative and a CD is, at best, like a non-compressed digital photo---no matter how big the digital photo, if you soom in you eventually see pixels, whereas with a negative you can blow up a print to almost any size?

That makes sense--literal, perfect analogue should half "all" the information. But what record players/hi-fi's/listening rooms can fully take advantage?

That makes sense--literal, perfect analogue should half "all" the information. But what record players/hi-fi's/listening rooms can fully take advantage?

Except that physics limits the amount of information you can extract from a source. LEARN 1 INFORMATION THEORY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Theory

I've sold a lot of my LPs out of necessity, moving around the country and out of it. I keep a core collection of about 200 must-haves, mostly original classics from 1976-1987. I don't have a record player right now, but I do plan to get one eventually.

I know what all that old music sounds like on vinyl, but right now I'm content with MP3s for the sheer convenience.

Do I win?

What about, I don't know, MONEY?

wrong!! i'll even trump miccio's example; i had a faulty luomo mp3 with a bit of the song excised (it was "so you")... it kinda sounded like an abrupt jump-cut & i thought it was totally cool! eventually i got the album and it wasn't there anymore, it was a faulty mp3!!

MUTEK HERE I COME

I can only listen to musicals on vinyl.

I need a new stylus but apparently the kind I need isn't available anymore? Maybe I need a different Radio Shack clerk.

But then again, the less people with record players means less people buying records which means more for me!!!!

www.needledoctor.com you can e-mail them for info.

yeah! that's the spirit.

btw i was buying records well before i started buying cds, which wasn't even until '89 or '90 (cuz i didn't have anything to play them on). i'm certainly not copping a "been there, done that" attitude.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

Also, Dan Perry OTM.

What are you talking about, you TEMPTER you? :(

I've never had that. Sounds like a bad turntable.

To begin with, I can't see spending money on a decent stereo system right now. Until I move into a house (which may never happen), I don't want to start collecting something like vinyl, something more which needs to be lugged around. (I don't move myself, but having lots of stuff is still really painful when you move around a lot, or it is for me anyway.)

Much of what interests me most probably wouldn't be available on cheap vinyl anywhere near me. I'm not buying used vinyl without looking at it first, either. I'm not interested in bargain-hunting. I don't enjoy the process. I used to spend lots of time in used bookstores (and some time in used record stores), but I don't find that a very attractive way to spend time any more. (If anything, going to flea markets seems like it would be even more tedious, but I guess once you know where to go, it's not so bad.

In my first band, when I was 17, the guitarist couldn't afford an electronic tuner for his guitar, and we couldn't either. He tuned to the E at the start of the Who's I Can See for Miles. Then we all tuned to him (I played bass). Well, after we got a little more sophisticated and got tuners, we realized that we had been tuning half a step up because his turntable was slightly fast. Everyone thought we were all experimental and shit, but we were just morons and victims of turntable variability.

I grew up with a fucking record player, and I've only not had one for maybe 8 years of my life. As it so happens, I'm getting one again (my late grandfather's, along with his hi-fi system), and I'm happy that I am, but I don't see that I enjoyed music any less or was any less able to discuss it when I didn't.

Honestly, during that time I couldn't have afforded something that would have brought out any of the sonic advantages of a record anyhow, and the one time I did experiment with a cheap turntable and speaker set I was so disgusted by the sound that I never used it again. Unless you have fairly good equipment, CDs are going to sound considerably better than records.

As a side note, I hate it when this sort of arbitrary stupidity is called "snobbery" -- it implies that the person being targeted actually does have some kind of superior knowledge or values.

I'm hesiatant to call myself stupid, as I would be, but you're right otherwise. I have no superior anything.

Also, oh shit this record is good. Just bought it. Robert Fripp - Network. It's kind of a single. Four songs. One has Daryl Hall (don't laugh), one has Peter Gabriel (doing a version of "Here Comes The Flood" that I've never heard), and one has David Byrne ("I am am resplendent in divengence"). Never would have found these songs on CD, bra. Not even if they'd been released there.

Vinyl!

Is this ever wrong.

Is this ever wrong.

YES. YES IT IS EVER WRONG. Good vinyl sounds great, better than 192kbps MP3s every day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

-- Paunchy Stratego (fluxion2...), July 18th, 2005.

JESUS LAUGHS

We'd all like to get golder, I guess

I love my Kenan, he has a special place in my heart with his goofy but impossibly hip shirts.

I suggest a record playing slumber party (NO DIRTY MINDS!)

But we have to invite Rickey Wright, too.

Hooray for the vinyl-playing slumber party a la Doris Day!

no? o ok

at the same time, i like being able to buy albums for pennies. it's *almost* cheaper and easier than downloading shit off the web.

Some Minuses of owning a record player:
-Records take up more space and are harder to transport
-Having to flip the side (if you're having people over this can be annoying)
-Wider variance in sound quality (if you have a shit record player/stereo or a bad copy of something, sorry, it doesn't sound better than a CD)
-Difficulty in putting songs on mixes, or on your computer or iPod

I think one would be much worse off for not owning a CD player than not owning a record player.

Since the onset of the home recording technological revolution + the internet making access to duplication, distribution, etc. services easy, there have been more than 30,000 albums released every year since 2001 (these with Soundscan barcodes, who knows about all those without). During the past five years, nearly as many recorded works of music have been released as were recorded in the 70+ years. In the next ONE year there will be more music released that you can 'get your head around'.

...and there's a school of thought* amongst yr audiophilic types that says that if you have really fantastic equipment (i.e. phase-accurate, full-range speakers, top-class sources), CDs are going to sound miles better than records.

(* - obv, there are plenty of audiophiles who will never accept the CD or have grudgingly accepted its dominance while loathing its "sound", but the notion [not explicitly stated here, but perhaps silently assumed] that this is the de facto audiophile position isn't true in my experience).

Phoenix Garrett was getting ready to work his first summer job. The Alleged gunman, L'mani Delina.

The victim's mother is still trying to cope with the tragedy.

Jacqueline Birkett-Johnson, Mother: "Most parents would say my son was a good son, Phoenix was a good child, headed in the right direction."

Witnesses say Garrett was sitting on a bench, selling CD's from a duffel bag on a crowded corner in Hamilton Heights. Five teens approached him around 4:30 pm. and began arguing. Delina allegedly pulled out a 38 caliber revolver and pumped four bullets into Garrett, who was trying to walk away.

An NYPD lieutenant reportedly heard the commotion, ran over and grabbed Delina as he tried to run. He held him down until back up arrived, as Garrett laid in a pool of blood.

He was pronounced dead at saint luke's hospital.

Birkett-Johnson: "He had a wonderful sense of humor. I could have been angry as a pitbull, and he would have said something to make me laugh."