The strawman of the white, DJ Shadow/Jurassic 5 loving, university student hip-hop fan

no, this is music college students listened to in the late 90s. maybe this is why we're hating on them. it's passe already.

-- Dom Passantino (juror...), July 25th, 2005.

you know what the worst bit is?

at least several uni friends have said this or simular to me:

"You love music don't you? Have you heard much Jack Johnson".

Hand me a sawn-off shotgun i'll do it.

It terrifies me.

Can I get my own grandmother pregnant first?

Instead of the national anthem, he could do that wonderful song he recorded with Handsome Boy Modelling School.

"Unforgivable Whiteness"

I'm pretty sure this is it, people half-remember arguements that were used against them four years ago and try and use it as their own opinions now that they're "loving this music unironically".

The thread should have been locked after this.

(There's nothing wrong with liking Shadow or El-P or J5 or Prefuse.. duh. I think it's a case where the "this is hip hop that's KEEPIN IT REAL" strawman fan gets blown to proportions in relation to those artists or similar, and then one who admits liking these folks gets assumed to *be* that strawman or strawwoman, and becomes the whipping person, unfortunately gets defensive about said artists because he/she may or may not have listened to "real" "urban" "mainstream" hip-hop, vicious cycle, blah blah blah blah blah.... everyone should be sentenced to go to their local bookstore and read the Kool Herc intro to Jeff Chang's hip hop book... I recommend they buy it and read it, too.. but they should be required to at least read the intro.)

How long have you been out of college for?

Ouch. Help me. I think I've laughed so hard that I've broken something.

I don't mind Jack Johnson. He seems like he'd be fun to smoke up with and then he'd sing you a pretty song.

This may be hard to believe, but this stereotype can apply to people *outside* college too! And they may even hate Shadow and J5, and love Ja-Rule and Nas! OMG!

I mean, if you're singing along and goofing on shit, then you're liking it in some way, right? I was talking to someone who just graduated high school and I think that's probably the way she sees most radio hip-hop/r&b. It's really no more ridiculous than any other music, but all the innuendo and raps about panty lines just doesn't really describe your life at that age.

Otherwise, the whole Shadow/J5/Diplo/Prefuse/R2Dj2/whatever fan stereotype is just as much a strawman as any white guy who wants to live black and doesn't "do it accurately enough" because that's borne from a comedic, mainstream strawman/stereotype, period.

I think the border line is how the possible strawman feels about dead prez's "(bigger than) hip hop." Is it real enough? Does the production make it too commercial? Have they only heard of it because they're kanye trainspotting after finding their direction in life through "college dropout?"

I saw J5 for a second time sometime around 2003 (2002?) and I almost fell asleep because they decided to perform pretty much every song they ever recorded. I swear, it went on foreeeeever. Also, is this strawman responsible for all kinds of college kids thinking every DJ is a turntablist? Because jesus, if I could blame it for every guy who's made some sort of "wicky wicky scratch" noise during a discussion about djing it'd clear up some emotional issues.

Anyway, so I don't really get the issue. What're the sides we're discussing here? That folks who still listen to J5/DJ Shadow (I personally think he is far above and beyong any J5 link)/RJD2 aren't listening to the "real shit?" And those listening to the "real shit" think the J5/DJ Shadow/RJD2 fans have no clue? What's the issue?

And where do Tribe and De La fall in all this? I think and argument of the non-real shit fan is maybe "positivity" or "talking about things I can actually relate to." At least those are the arguments I can remember from my college days. But I still can't take a side or provide a real argument because I don't really know what the question is.

I think that for a lot of people (I'm not necessarily one of them), J5 and Shadow represent a museum curator's approach to hip-hop, a sort of "4 elements 4 life" nostalgia that keeps rap's aesthetic locked in a time capsule from which it can never evolve. Ergo, the white college kid who champions these artists is, in fact, speaking a dead language.

http://www.costumeexpo.com/Products/hats/character/thumbs/strawman.jpg

Oh – De La pwns all over Talib, Mos Def, and Jurassic 5. Have you listened to their beats? Their last album shows no slackening.

Well I guess I'm the ultimate in hip-hop evil because I'm white, I'm a university student, and I like Endtroducing a lot. Don't have a J5 shirt, though.

Now that Michael Jackson is "invincible" in court (haw haw), maybe he can sue to win the rights to get "J5" back from Jurassic 5.

You're confusing MJ with Berry Gordy.

Also, N_RQ, no. Jurassic 5 are still mostly yawnfilled. Lovely guys, tho'!

But...COME ON! What the hell happened to live and let live, even in the face of others who do not adopt said credo? This smacks of the same undercurrents that lead to the hateration that is thrown in Dave Matthews Band fans faces - those without the knowledge are deemed the unwashed masses, somehow below those of us in the know.

I would suggest this instead - if you should see someone who fits any variation of the above appearance, reach into your bag and give them one of the 5 burned cds that you will keep with you from now on. On said discs, you will have burned a compilation of the music you find would be important to turn these "unfortunate souls" onto. What is actually on it? Who the fuck cares? Just do it. Spread the word, instead of wasting words.

I've seen J5 a few times, enjoyed their show once or twice, and was bored by it once or twice. I feel like "Entroducing" was an important album for me in terms of exploding what music could be, and I got it in...something like '96? '97?

Don't hate - elaborate, educate, and celebrate. How cool would it be to get Sam Bush and Ice T on the same track? What the hell kind of mind fuck would THAT be?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901742/scarecrow_oz.gif
IF I ONLY HAD THAT MIDNIGHT IN A PERFECT WORLD 12".

The straw-man rhetorical technique is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than one's opponents actually offer. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

1. Present only a portion of the opponent's arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend that all of their arguments have been refuted.
2. Present the opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.
3. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
4. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
5. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that the person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

Some logic textbooks define the straw-man fallacy only as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, however, to use the term to refer to all of these tactics. The straw-man technique is also used as a form of media manipulation.

I am also white and have been to college.

I liked J5 for about a week, then forgot they existed for a couple of years. my favorite J5 "moment" was when i was taking trash down to the dumpster at my old apartment and happened across a stack of Power By Numbers LPs sitting atop a bag, in totally pristine shape (along with a few LP copies of a Tupac zombie comp). I think I netted about 50 in trade for them later that night.

OTM I reckon.

People used to hate Miami Bass. Now they love it.

People used to love sample based Hip-Hop (some with harsh lyrics, some without). Now they hate it.

Whatever.

Hip-House is the music of the future. Arrested Development will undergo a critical reevaluation then too.

did he quit returning your emails?

Once Rakim hit, there was a division where some were very focused on lyrics, while others still wanted raw beats (not to say Eric B's beats aren't raw, but there was a difference).

This is how the NYC vs. Down South thing started, and NYC acts would have riders in their touring contracts saying they would not play a show with anyone from down south.

Then Outkast hit in 1993, and the tide slowly turned.

The sad thing is, not the acts that once perpetuate this, but the audiences who buy into it all (which includes me, to some degree).

God help us.

Because we will be very very old and very very irrelevant.

Happy New Years!

when i was 13, i painstakingly (and badly) copied the awesome AD logo onto the cover of my school folder, like so many before me. and i have to say, i have no regrets...

as for shadow and j5, i found shadow amazing in 97, and bought the j5 album for cheap in 98, and thought it was fun. it was fun. i was in "college", and im white. i dont know anyone who still carries both these torches to this day tho.

also, "alphabet aerobics" was a pretty good tune! i know its not j5, but whast the difference?!

because most of those kids like this stuff too

Maybe I'm wierd, but I have a frriend who loves Dexter Gordon (as do I) and also loves ELO (whom I abhor) yet somehow this hasn't turned me away from Dexter Gordon. Or my friend, for that matter.

Last summer, Fast Eddie performed to a packed club here in Toronto. Never say never.

deej said it upthread: it's boring, not wrong. White hip-hop fans who only enjoy music by white artists is a whole other thread.

The next two projects will be (i) a solo album from Wu-Tang affiliate producer Bronze Nazareth who recently produced tracks for RZA, GZA, Masta Killa, Immortal Technique and Black Market Militia and (ii) a solo album from long time Wu-Tang affiliate LA the Darkman/Embassy Entertainment.

Maybe I'm just out of touch (I haven't really followed Hip-Hop closely since 1996), but from what I remember, those Hip-Hop fans who liked J5 in the beginning were either from the golden age, or at least saw J5 as the extension of it in the face of the Puffy Daddy era.

On the other hand, I never was a fan of DJ Shadow for the most part. I know he becomes furious when the term Trip-Hop gets affixed to his name, but yeah, white, lyriciless, slow, and boring to my ears...sounds like Trip-Hop (sic) to me (or whatever term people apply to that sound now).

Point being, I had many friends at the time who were bedroom DJ's that were exclusivly into that Ninja Tune/Mo Wax sound, and they bought into J5 w/o looking at the remainder of what I thought was part of the Hip-Hop canon.

Maybe that's what this thread is saying?

Either way, Native Toungues, and their fallout, have always been on of the facets of Hip-Hop that I love, despite some peripheral audiences it may've attracted.

this type of thinking is really rampant in hip hop fans. it's not necessarily "writing off huge parts of rap and hip-hop music as being without worth". it could be that all that other hip hop just doesn't appeal to them. would one make the same statement if someone liked, say, just the white stripes and radiohead or whatever but didn't care for chuck berry or the rolling stones or lynyrd skynrd or funkadelic? why, if you say like hip hop, do you have to like ALL hip hop? it seems like an extension of the "i'm more real/true to this" than you line of thought.

It's like this for me...

I never liked much rock music until these past 5 or 10 years. I don't have context the way rock fans do...so when the Strokes came out, I loved it...but my rock friends were like "no no, they're so derivitave."

But their newfound interest in Hip-Hop is the same thing...they like plenty of the newer commercial stuff I feel is lame, and I point them to the classics and explain the context.

Am I smug? I'd take J5 over 50 Cent, and I was part of this Hip-Hop thing since it came out on record. They're plenty of people who have given me Gang of Four lessons telling me to steer clear of The Bravery (whom I've never heard as a result).

"I wish I had a mic"

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/47/Monkees1987.jpg

The distasteful thing to me is if you start describing what you like as "real hip-hop" and that you don't like "rap" even if that's exactly what you're listening to. A lot of these "white, DJ Shadow/Jurassic 5 loving, university student hip-hop fan[s]" say they listen to hip-hop, not rap. It's the same situation as those cats who only like gangster rap who say anything that doesn't talk about clothes, bank roles, and hos isn't "real" either.

And I'm sure there are a ton of other people out there who listen to "real rock", "real country", and "real drum 'n bass". I find those people weird for the same reason.

Also, I like Shadow, RJD2, and J5 and even if that was the only hip-hop/rap you listened to, I'd still say that person liked "real hip-hop". I'd just take offense when they start describing Warren G as being without worth.

I actually must give some credit to pitchfork (heaven forbid) on actually speaking the truth that J5 must be one of the most borning bands on the planet, and that there are sum mainstream rappers with actual talent. The many-alt hip hop is just as negative as the gansta rap... if i hear one more time on how j5 is gonna take us back to the day.....!!!!

i'll let my good friend from outkast sum up 4 me
"met a critic, I made her shit her drawers
She said she thought hip-hop was only guns and alcohol
I said "Oh hell naw!" But yet it's that too
You can't discrimi-hate cause you done read a book or two"

T-minus 18 months to Arrested Development revival, y'all!

-- Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Saturday, 20 May 2006 19:18 (2 years ago) Link

:( RIP

Early attempt at trolling here, not really a classic.

Needed more steampunk

also needs to not be based on a previously professed love for j5

Firstly, yes, I like Jurassic 5. Woo-fucking-hoo.

Dom you said "I'm seriously interested on this one, and I have no real answers. Do discuss." and now you say it was "Early attempt at trolling here, not really a classic." How will we ever know if you are being disingenuous in the future?

http://dmacwilliam.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/200801_01.gif

http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/trust-no-one.jpg

I'm seriously interested on this one, and I have no real answers.

^^^ An obsessive interest in researching scandal/gossip that's happened in the past, manifesting itself as revivals of old threads to highlight some post or statement that's supposedly funny or o_0 or whatever.

wtf guys i just wanted to big up an arrested development revival

HOOS I was ^^^ing gebbnab

In an age where hip-hop stars are regularly lambasted for inciting violence, misogyny and homophobia, and where a lot of the time this is true, it could be all too easy to slip into a jaded view of the whole genre. But by dismissing it out of hand, a whole world of musical pioneering could be missed - for every Ludacris there's a Mos Def, for every G-Unit there's a De La Soul. Hip-Hop can have something to say, and it can be as meaningful as any lyric sung by some misanthropic indie singer.

http://www.asylumraiders.com/images/snoopy_typewriter.gif

still easier to take the piss out of the dj shadow fan (i dunno if this sort of fan still exists though, theyve probably moved onto clipse/wayne etc and regard their earlier 'corny' def jux/prefuse/rjd2 phase with embarassment) than the person who thinks lil boosie and plies are keeping the levels high.

theyve probably moved onto clipse/wayne etc and regard their earlier 'corny' def jux/prefuse/rjd2 phase with embarassment

haha yeah i think this is key. the new strawman regards jay-z playing glastonbury in 2008 as a great leap forward.

where does that blipster dude dom was blogging about fit into this?

I like DJ Shadow, sorry.

lol i think that blipster dude wants beef

Hot beef injection from Dom Passantino.

I d/led that DJ Shadow early stuff 4xCD sprawl about a month ago but haven't listened to any of it yet. I should get round to it really.

haha yeah i think this is key. the new strawman regards jay-z playing glastonbury in 2008 as a great leap forward.

Back in the day, we built our strawmen from people we saw walking round university campuses. Now we build them based on late twentysomethings we read on the internet.

pretty much, though i am still a student!

This kind of guy (generalise from your own experience) also listens to a set list of indie and IDM types, but you never hear indie fans complaining about how Super Furry Animals fans are ruining indie, or electronica types talking about "Yet _another_ Aphex Twin fan".

Haha RONG.

Yeah isn't Aphex Twin the signifier for someone claiming "I'm not really into that dance stuff, although I don't mind Come to Daddy?" Dance music for 6Music listeners. Again, I like Aphex Twin!

sopering point but this autumn's fresher intake were not born when aphex put out his first record, so they're not going to be invested in his work in quite the same way as us old lags.

sobering. hic.

Since it's not 1998 any more, you probably need to substitute Aphex Twin for The Bug or Burial or someone.

Actually this strawman still pops up in my head whenever I look at the Friday night listings for Fabric. These people will always exist, unless weed suddenly disappears from the surface of the earth.

I'm old, just not down with the hippy students any more.

Come To Daddy would be morelike the token pick for 'open minded'-but-not-really metal fans FWIW (Dillinger Escape Plan covered it for example)

good thread.

bring back the old Dom!

Amount of people who know I like hip-hop and have tried bringing up scroobius pip or whatever that shit is in the past 6 months: 7.

Amount of people who know I like hip-hop and have talked to me about Jurassic 5/Dj Shadow etc. ever: O.

Amount of people who have talked to me about Lil Wayne/T.I.: 1.

I hate only knowing students.

yikes, i just ran into the blog post that inspired this revive by accident.

A producer and a poet from Essex weren't the most likely candidates to become the saviours of intelligent hip-hop, but with Scroobius Pip's wit and biting social commentary backed up by Dan le Sac's 8-bit bleeps and beats, it's hard to disagree.

Should we invite that dude on her to defend himself?

unfortunate typo there robinho.

it really takes a lot to raise my ire these days when it comes to music, but le sac and pip do it every. single. time.

so yes let's get that blogger on here.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oa218zfUV7w/SQXLDuHTbwI/AAAAAAAAACo/5Sfuh4worQE/S220/Head.jpg

http://musicfromagreenwindow.blogspot.com/

...."scroobius pip?"

In an age where hip-hop stars are regularly lambasted for inciting violence, misogyny and homophobia, and where a lot of the time this is true, it could be all too easy to slip into a jaded view of the whole genre. But by dismissing it out of hand, a whole world of musical pioneering could be missed - for every Ludacris there's a Mos Def, for every G-Unit there's a De La Soul. Hip-Hop can have something to say, and it can be as meaningful as any lyric sung by some misanthropic indie singer.

― Mare Street tour guide (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

also, dunno where that's from, but it *sounds* like something from my high school newspaper

Dan Le Sac should've produced 'Slime And Reason'

Haha I was about to say, surely this strawman grew up and started writing for Hip-Hop Connection?

Can I get my own grandmother pregnant first?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, July 25, 2005 7:09 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol italians

She's dead now :-(

hope you're happy and what

i got nothing...

of course not. he said she's dead, didn't he?

As if by magic, Chipmunk's new single has just come on the radio and seems a brazen attempt to appeal to this market. :(

what, dead grannies?

Nothing to do with dead grannies, no. I'm not sure what magic has to do with anything either really.

"Sometimes songs will reappear in your head for no reason. You'll start humming a tune, and only recognise what that song is a minute later. I love it when this happens, it's a true affirmation of loving a song, that it's buried almost subconsciously into you. For me, today, it was "Midnight Surprise" by Lightspeed Champion."

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/420368047_f9160de2b6.jpg?v=1173822608

If Lightspeed Champion had sold some records, we could easily have used him as a punchline more often.

Or if he had a drummer

If Lightspeed Champion had sold some records, we could easily have used him as a punchline more often.

Can't think of any other pop musician to have had no sales bump whatsoever after an untimely death. RIP big man.

I used to know a lot of "heads" (all white guys, natch) who listened to music such as this on their studio quality headphones while walking around town, their dreadlocked hair tucked neatly into their rastafarian hats

Man, that must have been an awful fictional town.

Bay Area, late 90s. But thanks for calling.

"Bay Area" indeed!

Berkeley, if you want to be specific.

cliche area

most of them seemed to live in the co-ops, now that I think about it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oa218zfUV7w/SQXLDuHTbwI/AAAAAAAAACo/5Sfuh4worQE/S220/Head.jpg
CLICHE AREA

cliche area

I see. So now if you witness something, you should change the place you saw it to be "less cliche."

that last Shadow album did pretty much suck tho (except 3 Freaks) right?

http://www.fulana.org/images/if-you-see-something.JPG

I used to know a lot of "heads" (all white guys, natch) who listened to music such as this on their studio quality headphones while walking around town, their dreadlocked hair tucked neatly into their rastafarian hats

― Jesus Christ, Attorney at Law (res), Thursday, 29 January 2009 17:00 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Where is Ed?

no hat on Ed, he lets it flow

"that last Shadow album did pretty much suck tho (except 3 Freaks) right?"

shadow basically started hating his fans. more 'corny indie rap fuxor' self hate.

lol otm

lol otm

― The Reverend (rev), Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:58 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol otm