In defense of digging obscure post-punk bands (still!) re: ACR in Pitchfork

he's not writing for the post-punk hardcore, he's writing for the uncomitted, "generic" consumer.

I don't like to dance to a lot of different kinds of music either, but I can only assume he hasn't seen what happens when you play Do the Du to a packed dancefloor.

he's not reviewing "do the du".

to speak for thousands of dorky record collectors everywhere

again, he's not writing for "dorky record collectors", he's writing for people who want to have 12 or 50 CDs that they can enjoy for a long time.

Dan, that's the point! Finding this stuff is part of the enjoyment. When you listen to a forgotten record and there's a couple absolute dancefloor killers, it's a great moment. When companies decide that the couple moments of glory are worth remastering and rereleasing full albums because they've "remembered" how great an album is, it's obnoxious and unnecessary. Of course Jess knows the effects of "Do the Du," that's why that particular song has been namechecked many times and issued on compilations.

I don't know why you are saying this. This is the Pickfork reader demographic? In the last paragraph of the review, he is talking DIRECTLY TO the prototypical Pickfork reading indie dork strawman with his piles of dollar bin vinyl and CD-Rs, most of which is crap though he refuses to admit it so Pickfork has to set him straight!

what's wrong with just putting something out and letting the people who buy it decide whether it's any good?

No, he's dismissing and in a way offending the post-punk hardcore.

he's not reviewing "do the du"

and yet he did! and I'm referring to that as well.

again, he's not writing for "dorky record collectors", he's writing for people who want to have 12 or 50 CDs that they can enjoy for a long time

I doubt it. Every sentance of the review aims to point out the wastefulness of digging in the past, down to the final sentance(as Tim says above). I mean, if you're writing for those people I think a simple "skip all post-punk but Joy Division" would suffice.

When companies decide that the couple moments of glory are worth remastering and rereleasing full albums because they've "remembered" how great an album is, it's obnoxious and unnecessary.

Huh? Companies that like old music that remaster and release albums for other people who make like that music is obnoxious and unnecessary? I don't understand that at all.

(and thanks for buying the CD, Walter! For those who want to follow in his wise footsteps let me post:

http://www.igetrvng.com/shop_mx4.html

and hi-jack my own thread for self-promotional purposes, thanks!)

not true. delta 5, still un-reissued. though thats going to change by the end of the year.

Now that I've listened to it do you think I could return it? I think I heard some SLAP BASS on there.

Now I'm not going to defend I'd Like to See You Again as a forgotten masterpiece. It's not a great record

if it's not a great record why bother? we're in a recession, you know. petroleium products ain't payin for themselves.

i do think if you didn't see the sarcasm in a lot of the review yr blind, but i'm not interested in making a federal case out of it.

what's so great about great records?

petroleium products ain't payin for themselves.

some of us take the subway!

It's up to each to decide which bands fall in which categories.

I don't see what's really hard to understand about this.

And Jess, as much as I'd like to say, sure, I'm a humorless dolt, my mom would have to disagree, she thinks I'm really funny!

xpost haha yeah nothin sez 2005 to me like freak-folk

(speaking of which, just ordered yr CD, Dan)

Well, to be fair, you don't write about music professionally (that I know of.) So you're not expected to express opinions about it as part of getting a paycheck.

it's not bullshit tho; i find a lot of joy in records that don't hit their marks in a way that's conventionally considered "great."

obv it can ("go into the binary of whether something deserves to be remembered or forgotten"). doesn't mean it has to. there's so much gray area between "should be remembered" and "should be forgotten."

what you find mediocre i might not find mediocre. and i'm not really a "new/different" queen -- some of my favorite sounds are ripoffs that improved upon the original.

x-post: Don't give a fuck about albums. How very anti-rockist of you. Let me guess, you're really into the new grime singles and the last R. Kelly opus?

Still, how does their finally being reissued in 2004/2005 signal the idea that the bottom of the barrel has been struck?

creepy-80s-obsessive-dude: check the archives. i have talked about plenty of records i have loved from 2005 all over ilx and elsewhere.

and for the post-punk fan looking for new music to check out you could do worse then checking out Chromatics and Clor for starters. But these are entirely different discussions, argument one being I'd rather here something good done with post-punk influences (The Rapture, the Futureheads) then something more "new" or "contemporary" that has a sound I don't care for, or songwriting I find inferior. Argument 2 being that I find myself thinking most sounds/genres are best during their moment, which is why I like Italo-Disco from 82, Chicago House from 86, Detroit Techno from 87, New York House from 89, UK techno from 92 etc etc. That's just me and I contradict that with the first argument.

my really good point is zapped by a one-liner again! I must retreat to twirl my moustache and tie a grime mc to the railroad tracks

see, this we agree on. but i don't think one contradicts the other. even when someone is consciously aping something they're bound to emphasize or downplay aspects of it based on their personal preferences/prejudices.

i get obsessive about old music too. i just don't think the mediocre hardcore rave cd's i bought a few weeks ago out of curiosity necessarily merit reissue.

john i spent five hours driving and 11 at work today, if you honestly think i am going to be able to get into a serious discussion of the past vs. the future tonight, u b crazy.

At last something we agree on!

And I didn't even get the Tronics' What's the Hubbub, Bub? reissue. It's probably grebt.

People Laugh At Me (Coz I Like Weird Music)
I was in a pub the other night
When a bunch of mods came in
They eyed me up then they came over
And said, "Hey, what’s your scene?
Are you a hippy, a mod or a punk?
Got a scooter or a motorbike?"
I can’t understand why they burst out laughing
When I told them the music I like

People laugh at me coz I like weird music
People just don’t understand
Why pay £6 for an album when you can
Listen to a weird noise band?

I had a girlfriend called Josephine,
She liked Abba and The Bee Gees
She thought music was about lawyers and accountants
Percentages and legal fees
Just the other night we stayed up late
Playing records till half past ten
Then I played a Danny & The Dressmakers tape
And I never saw Josephine again

People laugh at me coz I like weird music
People just don’t understand
Why pay £6 for an album when you can
Listen to a weird noise band?
(For free!)

Listen to a weird noise band (repeat ad nauseum)

also see "Quirky Pop Music" by IQ Zero ("Manchester's own Devo!")

This is silly, it's too choppy, but it's something that you can't ignore
Are you ready, to discover, something that you, never heard before
So you hate us, we can't help it, we are morons, we will play elsewhere
other cities, other morons, they won't like us, do we really care?
Stuck on the wall, we're sitting on a wall, and we are playing....
Quirky Pop Music!

http://s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0K2NOKV33QS7V0S9LOFH3GM6G0

Can you at least tell what the tracklisting was? Thanx.

nobody will ever beat the japanese at this game. they will reissue ANYTHING.

Christopher Columbus Said The World Is Like A Ball Spinning Round In Endless Circles It's Not Flat At All People Laughed And Said You Poor Fool Now What's Your Game And He Said You're Never Gonna Make It That Way

is in print. i still find it inspiring. and it is definitely some third-tier shit. ACR are at least second-tier. (my favorite magazine is ugly things though. and my preferences are widely known.) there is SO much stuff that has never made it onto cd. tons! an amazing amount of good music.

(And who says the "bottom of the barrel" has been hit? Maria and I.M. have both listed some important OOP releases above.)

and speaking of Dominique...has that stuff been reissued? I'd still like to hear it, last I remembered you were hoping to get it on CD?

One thing I'd argue with, though. Saying that you prefer the original incarnation to the revival ("most sounds/genres are best during their moment, which is why I like Italo-Disco from 82" -dan) is a false dichotomy--both are moments unto themselves, and are sounds unto themselves, just as all moments/scenes/sounds are iterations on previous sounds. I think part of why I like some revivals is because they are happening "in the moment" and incorporating stuff that's current, evolving before your eyes, rather than being a fixed object. But maybe if you're more conscious of or interested in the cultural currency market of what's known and what's not there's more pleasure there.

Well, in that statement I wasn't really talking about the revivalist as much as the continuum. Italo-revival circa 2002 that tries desperately to ape italo circa 1982 is one thing, the variations of italo from the late 80s till now that are a continuation of the genre are another. I think that is what I was talking about.

But I think you're giving too much credit to some of the revivalists. There's a difference between what you describe and blatant emulation with the addition of nothing new. We could debate which bands/producers fall on which side of the fence, but I think some of these "moments unto themselves" barely deserve the same consideration. For a random example, look at UK Mod revival of the late 70s, the Jam were new and transcended, but what about all the other bands that just offered second rate cover versions?

To confuse things more though, I'd say it is worth comparing, I'd say that what I like about italo circa 82 is often very much about it's "82-ness", and the addition of the "current" is what ruins it. When someone like Metro Area or Isolee does a euro-disco inspired track, it's often quite inspired. When Paralax Corporation writes a song that you could swear was recorded in 82, if it's a good song, then it's great. But when most else just ape the old sounds, missing the charm of the original and "updating" it with questionable trends, it's just bad news.

GRLZ - Women Ahead of Their Time

01. Maximum Joy: Stretch (1981)
02. Ludus: Breaking The Rules (1983)
03. Dorothy: Softness (1980)
04. JaJaJa: Katzrap (1982)
05. Bow Wow Wow: C-30, C-60, C-90 ANDA! (1980)
06. Delta 5: Mind Your Own Business (1980)
07. Slits: I Heard It Thru The Grapevine (tbc)
08. Rip, Rig and Panic: Storm The Reality Asylum (1982)
09. Anna Domino: Zanna (1988)
10. New Age Steppers: Fade Away (1981)
11. Rip, Rig and Panic: Sunken Love (1982)
12. Nicolle Meyer: Nowhere By Mir (1983)

Liner notes by Vivien Goldman
To be released in August 2005

on Crippled Dick Hot Wax

The Dorothy track is great, I couldn't remember where I knew it from then someone straightened me out, it was a 7" that came out on Throbbing Gristle's Industrial Records, produced by Alex Ferguson.

i have to say that i always found most acr on vinyl pretty mediocre but live they were / are something else. one of the great dance bands of our time. when the whistles come out..........

perhaps the world got bored of post punk but there is a vast amount of greatness that has not and probably will never be (legally) reissued. the surface has barely been sctratched.

ha. The liner notes to th Fetish compilation make a big deal about his work and relationship to the label. My favorite though? Cabaret Voltaire's 2x45.

Didn't know that Red Balune et al had been reissued. My problem is more often that I can't find/don't hear about the excellent stuff being reissued. Thanks for the heads up.

http://platta.net/images/covers/170/5738-0.jpg

but looking at some brody stuff today...maybe they're just played out, but his fonts have not aged nearly as well as the pre-Macintosh designed records.

I.M., can you not make assumptions about Pitchfork writers, please?

The Associates got a nice write-up, and just in time, The Affectionate Punch was finally reissued last week. I had just tracked down a rip from vinyl last year, but am ecstatic to finally get the CD. Sounds like a true lost classic to my ears. I hope the silly, jaded, post-punk backlash doesn't get in the way of people actually hearing this stuff.

Not strictly true, certainly in the case of The Passage. They got a fair amount of press especially from Degenerates onwards. They had a free flexi with The Melody Maker (b/w Blancmange), non-Peel early evening radio sessions, 'nearly' a top 40 hit (XOYO), so we're hardly talking about obscurity here.

It's that man Neville Brody again!!!!

what was the album after that...its good in parts but suffers from a kind of professionalism if i recall...photo of adi bound and gagged on cover.

yeah neville brody!!

Advantage.

Am I the only person on the planet who prefers the remixed/glossier Affectionate Punch over the original? (Not that I don't love the original.) (Wait a minute... don't answer that... I'm almost certain that ground was covered a while back here...)

Mmmmm P&P...

Speaking of Neville and sheffield funk...solo Mallinder is underrated, and certainly reminded me that Kirk wasn't 100% responsible for the music, as he later would be.

I also have an Eric Random 7" designed by Brody, I think.

And no, I think on another thread someone was defending the remixed Affectionate Punch. Maybe it was you! I prefer the original though and am thrilled its on CD finally. Now to just get some money.

And Dr. C, maybe Fastnbulbous is talking about America, where the Passage had much less impact, or none.

Their first album, Pindrop, is willfully difficult, almost as if they're trying too hard to be original. But anyone who's gonna try to mix Soft Machine's prog with prickly early Fall has got my attention. If you prefer the glossier Associates, you might do well to start with their fourth album, Enflame, and work backwards.

Yeah, I was talking about the U.S. The records simply were not to be found, and while Passage got a mention in the Trouser Press guide, Ludus were totally off the radar.

In contrast, I knew plenty of people who gave the likes of Clock DVA, Cabaret Voltaire, D.A.F. heavy rotation on their radio shows at my college.

People are more than welcome to disagree with the article; and people are can validly claim that the beginning and end of the article can be seen as smug. The only person who directly addresses just these parts alone are Dan, in his initial overreaction. And i say 'overreaction' because of this statement:

In the first paragraph, Jess writes at some point, 'on or around August 2003, any remaining good (just good!) post-punk bands had been exhumed, renovated, rehabilitated, whatever.' That is simply untrue, and I'd say it's unlikely you could say that about any genre of music. Perhaps those of us who actually really like post-punk are more forgiving of (or more excited by) these "lesser lights" but I feel like coming to the defense of some of them, some who may yet see the light of day, perhaps by my hand, or more likely LTM, Cherry Red, Soul Jazz etc. Are we all just hitting dirt? There's still good stuff out there, if you like this type of stuff. If you're not partial to it, maybe stop listening to the records, but let the rest of us enjoy our finds!

What's so sacred about post-punk such that it warrants a "this is simply untrue" reaction? And this is a reaction to a very subjective statement (sorry, but music journos are not expected to type "IMHO" every two sentences. I assume they are there almost all the time, especially in contexts like this.) Also, "let the rest of us enjoy our finds!". Um, it's just an opiniated semi-negative review of one band in the post-punk canon, dude. I'm sure Jess will "allow" you to enjoy your finds in the end (unless Jess has recently developed horror-anime type anti-post-punk mega-claws a la Survival Research Laboratories type mechabots.) Had this article been on any other genre currently in the revival spotlight, I'm sure this thread wouldn't exist. I think I've read more anti-"mash up" articles than there are posts in this thread, yet people are totally getting their panties wet here. Sorry if I'm not shedding any tears.

And I'm saying this as someone who completely geeks out on sniffing out forgotten post-punk gems from around the world myself.. not unlike Dan. I DISAGREE with Jess on the "necrophilia" hyperbole in the first paragraph -- but taken as is. (OK, and the "slap bass!" part, too.. haha). But it's his review -- and hence -- his opinion, in the end. Agree to disagree, etc. The world still turns. People still like post-punk, last I checked my geo-angular-rock-appreciate-o-meters from yesterday.

Anyway, I think the issues between Jess and Dan on this article have been resolved anyway. (And I'm going to ignore the lazy possibly-trolling anonymos on this thread too lazy to read the actual review, from here on out.)

YEAH I SAID IT

There's nothing sacred about post-punk, my point is against the damning of reissue culture as a whole. The article, and one of my main obsessions is about post-punk, so that's what we're talking about, but I make it clear in my overreaction that I think it'd be silly to state that all good folk, country, hardcore, rock, pop blah blah has been unearthed and is in print.

And while the review is of 2 ACR CDs, he uses the space to make comments on larger issues, and that is what I responded to. I'm not worried that post-punk fans are going to read the review and throw away their Rough Trade collections, but Jess made some comments, and hell, expected a response! So I gave one. Any review that says things like two years now of chasing up the lesser lights, dodgy one-shots, side-projects and general jerk-offery, if that excites you, check your pulse., and How are you using your time? begs a retort.

Dan, I hear you. I could have worded it better, but I was subtlely commending you for addressing the actual parts of the article in question, which is better than you saying "Oh, there goes Jess dismissing another 'hipster' genre again.", which I'm glad you didn't say.

And you do bring up a VERY good point re: not enough interesting folk, country, etc. being reissued. In fact, this might both fortify your point and Jess's point (somewhat.) Namely.. "ok, fine, now people into post-punk from almost anywhere have plenty of resources from which to sample, which is great (for the most part.) Now let's not over-saturate here and try something else for a while, shall we? Or leave it to the guys who have the passion and love for the stuff, instead of dealing with a bin of mediocre comps just because those mined labels in question happened to have some bands that used bass and synths on the roster of their little label circa 1981."