TS: The Cure Vs. Joy Division

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Now, imagine the following alternative historic events:

- Robert Smiths commits suicide just before the release of "Pornography"
- Ian Curtis is still alive and still the singer of Joy Division, whose guitarist Barney Sumner has however become a more prominent songwriter throughout the years - their three biggest hits, "Blue Monday", "True Faith" and "Regret" all composed by Sumner.

Which band would then have been most likely to appear with 1-2 albums in lots of "Best Albums Of All Time" lists?

Personally, I easily prefer early The Cure to Joy Division. Joy Division may have had a sort of interesting "depressive" style, and they may have been synth pioneers within "dark" musical styles. However, they were never even on level with the best songs on "17 Seconds" and "Faith".

Thus, The Cure are my pick. No doubt about it.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 24 February 2006 19:13 (twenty years ago)

What makes you think Barney Sumner writes the songs for New Order?

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:14 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division by the widest margin I can imagine (although, objectively speaking, the Cure are probably a more accomplished band).

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:20 (twenty years ago)

If they'd stopped after Unknown Pleasures, I wonder if anyone would ever even compare the two bands.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Accomplished? What do you mean?

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Robert Smith's biggest accomplishment is his pie intake.

― Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:24 (twenty years ago)

zing!

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:25 (twenty years ago)

seriously joy division by at least seventy cubits

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:26 (twenty years ago)

If they'd stopped after Unknown Pleasures, I wonder if anyone would ever even compare the two bands.

UP is far superior to anything the Cure (or Joy Division) ever did! Have you and I had the UP vs Closer argument before? I can't remember.

I also pick Joy Division by approximately 180 lumens.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:41 (twenty years ago)

Closer < Unknown Pleasures

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 24 February 2006 19:45 (twenty years ago)

No, I agree Unknown Pleasures is the best Joy Division and amongst the essential rock albums of all time. I just think their sound up to that point (give or take "Atmosphere") is a lot harder, rock-er, and starker than anything by the Cure, so much so that they almost seem like a different genre to me. I'm always a little surprised people compare the two bands (partly because I really love JD and can't really get into the Cure) so often but I can see it a little bit in Closer and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" (and more in early New Order).

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:56 (twenty years ago)

atmosphere didn't come out before unknown pleasures, did it?

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 24 February 2006 20:10 (twenty years ago)

the Cure never reached the same heights JD did, of course, but JD put out a lot of (I dunno, filler doesn't feel like the right term...) unremarkable material in a brief amount of time. Cure wins on more stuff released.

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

Oh kyle's right, "Atmosphere" was a few months after UP.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I think Closer>Unknown Pleasures, but that both > any Cure album. No comparison in my eyes, Joy Division is just one of my favorite bands ever.

― Harrison Barr (Petar), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:23 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division. Period.

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:41 (twenty years ago)

However, they were never even on level with the best songs on "17 Seconds" and "Faith".

Interestingly, even Robert Smith wouldn't agree with this!

Joy Division by a long, long distance.

― dee xtro (dee xtro), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division, easy.

― midi sanskrit (sanskrit), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:56 (twenty years ago)

REGGAETON!!!!!!!!!

― Confounded (Confounded), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:37 (twenty years ago)

disintegration is better than closer.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:44 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division, no question.

― xero (xero), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:50 (twenty years ago)

Both bands are peerless and this is an incredibly pointless comparison.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:52 (twenty years ago)

― p.j. (Henry), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:55 (twenty years ago)

I gotta go with The Cure.

― darin (darin), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:56 (twenty years ago)

bye then

― blunt (blunt), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:02 (twenty years ago)

you are an idiot, geir. no doubt about it.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:09 (twenty years ago)

i love 17 seconds and faith but as a live band joy div were on a different level.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:17 (twenty years ago)

first, Bernard Sumner never, never would have come to the front and contributed lyrics to Joy Division, thankfully.

the only way to do this properly is to look at each bands first 2 albums. answers easy then, Joy Division by a mile.

― biz, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:46 (twenty years ago)

as an album, 17 Seconds beats the fuck out of either U.P. or Closer.

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:52 (twenty years ago)

both, I mean

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:52 (twenty years ago)

i love 17 seconds but it's nowhere near as emotionally stimulating as the JD albums. it's a great album, but not nearly as huge as UP or Closer to my ears. i guess that's why there's a discussion though.

― biz, Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:00 (twenty years ago)

I think the Cure wins just by the simple fact that they did Three Imaginary Boys. It shows a different side before becoming really dark.

― BeeOK (boo radley), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:36 (twenty years ago)

who would want a different Cure side?

Joy Division by zillions of miles

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:40 (twenty years ago)

The day when I don't agree with Ned I will buy myself an ice-cream

― Zora (Zora), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:48 (twenty years ago)

Well, if I don't count "Head On The Door" - my favourite Cure album - or "Let's Go To Bed", "Just Like Heaven" and "Friday I'm In Love" - my favourite Cure singles - I will still go for The Cure for those three albums only. I have never quite "gotten" Joy Division even though "Unknown Pleasures" has its moments.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:59 (twenty years ago)

Unknown Pleasures is a moment, unlike any other moment

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:00 (twenty years ago)

No single moment on any Joy Division album is even close to the greatness of "A Forest, "Play For Today", "Other Voices" or "The Funeral Party".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:02 (twenty years ago)

right. how about this:

it's an entity that crushes everything Cure's ever done

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:04 (twenty years ago)

I have to admit the Cure is much easier on my ears but artistically speaking, I appreaciate JD more than The Cure.

― Miranda Leigh (Miranda Leigh), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:25 (twenty years ago)

if ian curtis lived would he still adore the group ?
if there was no "love will tear us apart" would we talk about the group?
who can sing the verse for love will tear us apart ?

the cure have more than 30 singles and good album tracks.

― fatbob, Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:35 (twenty years ago)

TS: anything vs joy division ... joy division wins. it's that simple.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:42 (twenty years ago)

I don't love either band and yet I have to agree with Ned. I see no real need to even place the 2 bands in competition. To me suggesting that Joy Division is a no brainer winner is a largely brainless opinion. The Cure has a huge discography and some very splendid moments, and Joy Division has a very compact, but absolutely solid discography. I personally don't like Joy Division all that much, but the Cure has a lot of shoddiness from album to album.

Of course, Joy Division's dominance in this question is predictable enough. Rock orthodoxy is so in place, one can predict the dominant opinion without even looking at the thread. Of course the "historically important and canonized" post punk band when win all. It's like the Can Vs. Faust debate. Soon as I saw that I knew Can would have the most supporters despite the fact that most listeners haven't even heard that much post-70s Faust. Hmmmm, let's see, who's the critical darling and most overpraised of the two? Which one has the best hipster magazine coverage?

Likewise, the Cure doesn't stand a chance against Joy Division among male rock enthusiasts. One was sanctified by the press, the other wasn't. Done, done, and done.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 04:13 (twenty years ago)

I pretty much completely agree with James here.

― Dan (Geir, You Know Better Than This) Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 25 February 2006 05:20 (twenty years ago)

Just curious: Has anyone met Geir in-real-life? Although I rarely agree with him, I'll bet he's nicer than anyone else here. I like you Geir.

― Okeigh, Saturday, 25 February 2006 05:59 (twenty years ago)

there is no real life my friend

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 10:46 (twenty years ago)

Dude, if Liam Gallagher's eyes had pointed in the same direction and as a result he wasn't such a bitter prick, and if Damon Albarn had OD'd and died after picking up a junk habit when he was dating that girl from Elastica who used to be kind of hot but now is all dumpy looking, would Parklife or Definitely Maybe be considered an all-time great record?

― Giles Manius (jsoulja), Saturday, 25 February 2006 11:38 (twenty years ago)

fuck no what are you talking about

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 12:06 (twenty years ago)

one is popular and successful and the other is joy division.lol.
cop-u-lator.

― retrogurl, Saturday, 25 February 2006 13:07 (twenty years ago)

James, is it really that hard to believe that many of us have listened to a lot by both bands and just prefer Joy Division? The only reason I didn't expand on my opinion is because I've posted a lot about my opinions of both bands on this board and didn't think it would be worthwhile to bring it all up again. It's not like the Cure catalogue is obscure or anything. I felt like I heard them in every other bar or coffeeshop in Toronto (but, yes, I've listened to enough of their albums too). FWIW I'd take UP over The Clash, Second Edition, Pink Flag, or any U2 I've heard as well (and would easily vote for Yes over Pink Floyd and probably Smashing Pumpkins over Nirvana) so I'm not just voting for the more critically acclaimed band. I don't think anyone else is either.

― Sundar (sundar), Saturday, 25 February 2006 15:25 (twenty years ago)

James, is it really that hard to believe that many of us have listened to a lot by both bands and just prefer Joy Division?

YOU FREAK. ;-)

It's not that hard for me to believe at all -- I'm just so thoroughly inculcated in a happy and extensive love of both that I'm all, "This is like taking sides between pizza and pasta."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 25 February 2006 15:29 (twenty years ago)

Pasta, obv.

― Sundar (sundar), Saturday, 25 February 2006 16:05 (twenty years ago)

"Joy Division may have had a sort of interesting "depressive" style, and they may have been synth pioneers within "dark" musical styles. However, they were never even on level with the best songs on "17 Seconds" and "Faith"."

You may be a little "lame", and have no idea what you are "talking" about.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 25 February 2006 16:13 (twenty years ago)

Rock orthodoxy is so in place, one can predict the dominant opinion without even looking at the thread. Of course the "historically important and canonized" post punk band when win all. It's like the Can Vs. Faust debate. Soon as I saw that I knew Can would have the most supporters despite the fact that most listeners haven't even heard that much post-70s Faust. Hmmmm, let's see, who's the critical darling and most overpraised of the two? Which one has the best hipster magazine coverage?

Well, considering that almost everyone posting on this thread is like 30 and were fans of both bands long before the hipster coverage hit the saturation point, I'm gonna say you're full of shit.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 25 February 2006 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Cure vs. Joy Division? Oh I don't even have to read this thread to know it's going to get ugly. Mighty ugly.

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Saturday, 25 February 2006 18:42 (twenty years ago)

Boy, you don't give anyone any credit for listening, do you? I can't speak for everyone here, but I come to ILM because I listen to music. My opinion has nothing to do with hipsters or hipster magazines.

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Saturday, 25 February 2006 20:03 (twenty years ago)

Only a hipster would say that. (Wait, only a hipster would say what I just said. Wait, only a hipster would self-reflexively criticize myself by implication by pointing out that a hipster would say what I said! WAIT!)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 25 February 2006 20:05 (twenty years ago)

Scrape that hipster off the sole of your shoe!

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH there's a freakout brewing in my (Bimb, Saturday, 25 February 2006 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Wash that hipster right out of your hair, etc...

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH there's a freakout brewing in my (Bimb, Saturday, 25 February 2006 20:09 (twenty years ago)

Stone Temple Pilots

― dave q (listerine), Saturday, 25 February 2006 20:19 (twenty years ago)

Edward: You're right. I don't usually give listeners that much credit. In my experience, popular music opinion is largely dominated by group opinion, nostalgia, and the tastemakers. I don't think Joy Division is a *better* band than the Cure under any criteria. I do think however that they occupy a kind of official status- I think their historical importance and innovation is largely responsible for their elite repuation, rather than subjective listening. I also think that Joy Division's short existence has also granted them a large part of their cult status- if they had grown old and fat as a band I'm not so sure they'd be so beloved. And I also think if you asked a group of women the same question, you would find the Cure in the dominant position in the debate. Take that however you want to.

That said, i'm not saying that *you* specifically are guilty of any of this. I'm just putting it out there. I'm sure a lot of people genuinely like Joy Division, but I don't think their status hurts.

I'd rather listen to Siouxsie and the Chameleons myself, two other bands I think are better than plodding old Joy Division hehehe.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 22:48 (twenty years ago)

if they had grown old and fat as a band I'm not so sure they'd be so beloved.

new order are beloved!

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:13 (twenty years ago)

Not like Joy Division and the Ian meister.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:23 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division by far.

― Harpal (harpal), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:29 (twenty years ago)

if you asked a group of women the same question, you would find the Cure in the dominant position

HI DERE: Joy Division, no question.

(all obvious disclaimers apply; I just wanted to be obnoxious about it)

― xero (xero), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:35 (twenty years ago)

Obviously, not every woman would agree. But generally speaking, most women I've met like the Cure more tham Joy Division. And I'm willing to bet, statistically speaking, the Cure would garner more votes from women. There are exceptions everywhere, but I'm speaking in generalities here.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:39 (twenty years ago)

what's your point, anyway?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:49 (twenty years ago)

Again: all obvious disclaimers apply.

I'm speaking in generalities here

Yes, and very useful generalities they are.

...the Cure would garner more votes from women with bad taste in music, absolutely, no argument here. Even if the Cure did turn out to be hugely more popular among women than Joy Division, regardless of any other, arguably more pertinent variables, what would that tell you about the relative merits or appeal of the two bands anyway? Anything at all? C'mon.

― xero (xero), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:51 (twenty years ago)

See above.

My point is that tastes in music are largely a product of group consensus. I'm claiming that Joy Division is more about reputation than content. I'm using the fact that most women prefer the Cure to Joy Division as proof there is no objective argument for Joy Division being a better band, and that what determines the value of the Cure and JD is largely a result of group interaction and canonization. I can therefore predict what band will come out on top of these debates. Hmmmm, mostly male rock enthusiasts: Joy Division wins.

The only reason I used this tactic was because posters rejected my claim that tastes are predictable and rooted in consensus/tastemaking culture. I personally think the Cure is better, but I was certain that few would agree because of a bloated, half deserved posthumous repuation of Joy Division.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:55 (twenty years ago)

I am suggesting the bands have no relative merits, other than "I like" or "I don't." People are offended by this, so there it is.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:56 (twenty years ago)

i hear ya. i'm not sure which one i prefer, but i agree i think most women probably do prefer the cure and i'm not sure why there is a bias working in opp. directions with the sexes but i think its possibly a rockist thing as opposed to most women have bad taste. hmm.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:57 (twenty years ago)

In short, I was agreeing with poor, maligned Geir haha.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:58 (twenty years ago)

what's next beer vs pot?

― no bones, Saturday, 25 February 2006 23:59 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:01 (twenty years ago)

most women prefer the Cure to Joy Division

Now it's an established fact?

OH NO I HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY THE MALE ROCK CANON INTO LOVING THE OVERRATED JOY DIVISION FOR 25 YEARS AND NOT LIKING THE CURE! GENDER IDENTITY CRISIS! :(((

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:01 (twenty years ago)

i'm annoyed.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:05 (twenty years ago)

Aw.

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:06 (twenty years ago)

Well xero, if you want to blow things out of proportion, be my guest. I think I qualified my statement well enough. If you don't like it, oh well.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:09 (twenty years ago)

I still don't think your arguments are particularly persuasive or useful, and I get a bit annoyed myself about sweeping generalizations, as well as very arguable assumptions being presented as fact, but let us leave this.

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:15 (twenty years ago)

It's not fact. It's a position. That's all.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:16 (twenty years ago)

it just seems like there's no way to talk about this b/c women, for reasons i understand, obivously feel protective about having their own opinions underived from others, part. men. so i'm not that annoyed, just frustrated.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:22 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry if I'm being presumptuous and gendering things too much. I just wanted some way of showing different consenus. I'm not trying to speak for women.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:25 (twenty years ago)

its ok. nothing a little momussage can't fix.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:32 (twenty years ago)

It would be ridiculous to claim that my opinions are utterly uninfluenced by any external factors, including consensus. That wasn't my point.

The fact is that among my current male friends the Cure are overwhelmingly preferred to Joy Division, and my female friends tend not to particularly like either band, so James' position looks really weird and questionable to me. I admit I haven't much of a sense of these bands' relative standing among the larger populations of male and female rock listeners; it just seems irrelevant to even look at it through a gender lens. I understand that James' point is about the effect of a certain male-dominated group-think in establishing bands as important or worthwhile, regardless of their intrinsic merits (if any such can even be said to exist), and there may be something to that, but I really don't think that we can safely say that among women as a whole, without regard to age, USA / UK location, or any other factor, necessarily prefer the Cure to Joy Division, which did seem to be the basis of his argument.

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:39 (twenty years ago)

A few of those sentences got fucked up. You take my meaning anyway, I trust.

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:40 (twenty years ago)

Well, it was more a point in case. And I totally admit I have no way of really making that kind of generalization, beyond guessing and a little faith. It's based on flawed data, since obviously my empirical experience does not necessarily reflect reality. It is at least partly an assumption. I think it's sound generally, but I can understand why someone would take exception to it.

I concede that I have overcomplicated things by bringing something like gender into my argument.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 00:45 (twenty years ago)

Hipsters be diggin' Joy Division

― Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Sunday, 26 February 2006 02:18 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 26 February 2006 02:34 (twenty years ago)

xpost: Yeah, that about covers it, along with: At the base of his poetics was a traditional demonic "earth-force" [...] called duende -- opening like Artaud's theatre of cruelty [...] to experiences of possession, of struggle, of those "black sounds" that make of art "a power, not a construct" -- J. Rothenberg on Lorca. Quasi-mystical claptrap taken out of context, maybe, but it also nails something elusive about Joy Division; the Cure are fine but I don't hear anything approaching that. Also I bet someone could easily crank out a fairly convincing theoretical thing about deep feminine elements (/= femaleness) specific to Joy Division's sound and presentation, if indeed it hasn't already been done; that person would not be me 'cause I'm lazy plus fuck a gender-essentialist stance, but it'd still be interesting to read.

― xero (xero), Sunday, 26 February 2006 02:44 (twenty years ago)

i think the joy division aura helps people to overlook that new order have made three horrible records in a row. robert smith doesn't get that sort of pass from anyone except maybe ned. joy division has a romanticism to their story arc and that's more powerful than the fact that robert smith has written some pretty amazing songs while eating pies.

― keyth (keyth), Sunday, 26 February 2006 02:48 (twenty years ago)

robert smith doesn't get that sort of pass from anyone except maybe ned.

Dan might have something to say to you about that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 26 February 2006 02:56 (twenty years ago)

I would have to throw the towel in with JD. Both bands meant the world to me at certain points, and have stuck with me through all these years, but JD has a timeless quality, whereas The Cure are definitely an artifact of the 80s.

Maybe artifact is a little harsh. But I can't help but feel nostalgia when I'm listening to The Cure, whereas when I'm stuck in the harrowed pit of Ian Curtis' psyche, I just fall into this zone which I cannot describe. Unknown Pleasures is a special record reserved for special times, but Pornography kinda makes me chuckle now.

Maybe I'm just sad I never had the guts to adopt the Robert Smith hairdo in grade 8.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:03 (twenty years ago)

When I was in high school, I sold a shitload of Cure parephanalia to a little sad goth girl for primo dollars. Tour guides, buttons, etc.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:04 (twenty years ago)

paraphernalia

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:04 (twenty years ago)

this thread is pointless. Jess, shut her down!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:15 (twenty years ago)

Taking Sides: Joy Division vs. Flipper (hint - FLIPPERFLIPPERFLIPPER!!!)

― geeta (geeta), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:24 (twenty years ago)

Hi Geeta!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:26 (twenty years ago)

the cure box set kicks the living shit out of the joy division one, loads more great songs.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:27 (twenty years ago)

hey scott! how are things?

― geeta (geeta), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:27 (twenty years ago)

good, things are good. how about you? where are you now? munich? prague?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:31 (twenty years ago)

That said, i'm not saying that *you* specifically are guilty of any of this.

Right, you were saying that *all* of us posting to this thread are guilty of this.

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Sunday, 26 February 2006 03:44 (twenty years ago)

No, I was saying the *majority* of the posters are guilty of it. Obviously I can't name names- it's an assumption rather than a concrete fact. In essence I was saying the results were predictable, not that everyone who likes Joy Division is a tool. And admit it, it is predictable. And saying that it's because JD is obviously better is completely bogus. My point is that the results were predicable and expected. It's not the same thing as saying anyone who likes JD more than the Cure is a tool. The only reason I waste my time with this shit is because I'm an iconoclast and I hate rock and roll heroes!

So nanny nanny boo boo.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 04:07 (twenty years ago)

Especially when they're as soul deadening as Joy "fascism is the in thing in art school" Division.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 04:09 (twenty years ago)

I'm just joking around about the fascist chic thing by the way.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 04:52 (twenty years ago)

soul deadening = dead souls

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 05:08 (twenty years ago)

Credit to Geeta for pointing out one of Dave Q's finest moments.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 26 February 2006 05:09 (twenty years ago)

That's an awesome thread.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 05:24 (twenty years ago)

I care for the Cure much, much more than Joy Division. This includes the part where they were contemporaries. I'd even say that I like Three Imaginary Boys more than any single Joy Division LP.

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 26 February 2006 05:50 (twenty years ago)

hey scott! i'm not in munich or in prague! i'm in new york city, but i'm getting sorta restless. hopefully going to berlin next month for a little while...

anyway, i tend to vote on such matters based on cover art. joy division had better cover art than the cure, hands down.

― geeta (geeta), Sunday, 26 February 2006 09:25 (twenty years ago)

robert smith is a million times more annoying than ian curtis, and even a hundred times more annoying than any ian curtis fan. JD win.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 26 February 2006 09:26 (twenty years ago)

**I also think that Joy Division's short existence has also granted them a large part of their cult status- if they had grown old and fat as a band I'm not so sure they'd be so beloved**

I love this statement. Ever seen recent pics of New Order? (Actually Steve's still looking good).

Wanna guess my answer to the original question?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 26 February 2006 10:25 (twenty years ago)

This is like 'beer in cans vs beer in bottles'. FFS IT'S BEER! WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE?

What interests me is how JD would have sounded had they lasted until 1985 and how that would differ from 1985 New Order. Pointless speculation of course but for me The Cure 81-85 far surpasses anything New Order made, I don't think that would have been the case with a prolongued Joy division.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Sunday, 26 February 2006 11:34 (twenty years ago)

JD had *real* power, depth, emotion, intensity one of the two best frontmen ever to set foot on a stage and a truly innovative sound. They created the template for dark post-punk and few of the wannabees that followed them got anywhere near the impact.

By contrast, the Cure/Bob Smith were really-nothing-special home-counties new-wavers who made a decent first LP (but, guys - Foxy Lady, come on!), tuned into the mood of the times for the (better) 17 Secs and Faith, had a nervous breakdown with Pornography (interesting) and then made a succession of terrible (The Top, Disintegration)and just about acceptable(HOTD, KMKMKM)albums, leavened with some OK singles. Post-long overcoats the Cure are probably at their best when they're *pop* and at their worst when they lumpenly try for *depth*.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 26 February 2006 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Dr. C OTM

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Sunday, 26 February 2006 17:10 (twenty years ago)

Except he is wrong, but I love him dearly. (That said personally I figure anyone who actually saw JD live even once can say whatever they want on the matter, even though I am therefore deeply jealous and must control a seething rage.)

Onimo, Dan and I may be alone in our wonderful sanity, but that makes us the elite we are. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 26 February 2006 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Heheh. I remember sitting in between two friends while getting ready to watch 24 Hour Party People in the cinema. The guy on my right said, rather matter of factly, that he saw Joy Division live. The guy on my right was aghast in anguish - "I'm not WORTHY!"

For what it's worth I decided to watch Here Are The Young Men last night, which is something I meant to do for about two weeks. Of course the Cure can't touch them, but you know...I'm trying to be diplomatic here.

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:11 (twenty years ago)

I mean the Cure did some really fabulous stuff. But there's no awe involved, really. That's the difference.

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:14 (twenty years ago)

The Cure hate is really getting to me.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:18 (twenty years ago)

This thread is really irritating me because, as James states, it's totally fucking obvious that any band that's been around forever vs. any band that burned out/ended quickly and received critical lionization will automatically swing in favor of the latter. It's (unfairly) evoking the same visceral response I get when cookie-cutter punks mock other people for conforming.

Also, I've become really, really sick of "band X vs band Y" comparisons but that's just me getting old.

(xpost: I mean the Cure did some really fabulous stuff. But there's no awe involved, really. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG)

― Dan (The "3 Bad New Order Albums" Crack Upthread Is Also Batshit Insane) Perry (, Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:19 (twenty years ago)

hahahhaha. See I knew this would get ugly!

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:25 (twenty years ago)

The reasoning here is what's getting to me. More often than not, people are citing Cure's lack of long-term quality control (stated in either explicit or implicit terms) as being a major point toward why they prefer Joy Division.

That's not a rational argument. It's impossible to say exactly what JD would have sounded like long-term, but it is fair to guess that their dark/fascist/death/bleak sound could not have gone long-term without some errosion into self-parody, and therefore some of their own quality control issues.

When Cure decided to go the bleak route with Seventeen Seconds, they kept it up pretty well for over a decade, if you're inclined to give them Wish (I am).

I can't think of anyone else who managed that. Maybe Swans. I suppose you could say
Siouxsie, but I always thought her image was bleaker than her music.

― Giles Manius (jsoulja), Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:41 (twenty years ago)

And no more box set comparisons, please.

Am I the only one who finds the formatting of JD's box set irritating?

― Giles Manius (jsoulja), Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:48 (twenty years ago)

Personally I think both bands had their ups & downs (SHOCK!!!) and I like Disintegration better than Closer but Closer is still awesome though not as awesome as Unknown Pleasures, which is better than The Top though I still love The Top dearly, and "Shadowplay" is better than "A Forest" which is still a great song, and at least the Cure didn't have to take themselves So Fucking Seriously all the time and thus were able to record such Amazing Traxx as "Do the Hansa," but then again taking themselves So Fucking Seriously is part of what made Joy Division amazing, and Ian Curtis is a better frontman than Robert Smith though really neither one can sing, and the Chameleons are better than both, but I like 'em anyway.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 26 February 2006 18:59 (twenty years ago)

also nu-Cure > nu-New Order

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 26 February 2006 19:00 (twenty years ago)

**Except he is wrong, but I love him dearly**

Tis mutual, Sir Ned. (And I will get that JD/NO live stuff out to you this week, promise!)

Those who say the comparison of an short, perfect, intense burnout vs a long sprawling career is unfair - yes, you have a point. So, I've been thinking about what they were like when they were both active in 78-80. And, yes the Cure were good, but JD were....out there, right on the edge. So many bands wanted to have that impact, but couldn't and don't. On Adrian Borland's sleevenotes to Propaganda he says of the Stooges-like (but v.good) Outsiders/early Sound stuff 'that was made before we heard Joy Division'. For me the 3 Imaginary Boys/17 Secs divide is similarly pre/post, in other words Joy Division changed the whole game.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Sunday, 26 February 2006 20:30 (twenty years ago)

I think Robert would say as much. You *have* heard the band's done-for-Australian-radio cover of "Love Will Tear Us Apart" from 2000, yes?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 26 February 2006 20:33 (twenty years ago)

TS: mania vs. depression

― cdwill (cdwill), Sunday, 26 February 2006 21:14 (twenty years ago)

Oh god, let's not bring the Swans into this. It will fuck up the argument entirely.

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 22:54 (twenty years ago)

I vote we turn this into another Chameleons appreciation thread.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Sunday, 26 February 2006 22:55 (twenty years ago)

Hahah. I'm all for that!

― All the robots-UH descend from the bus-UH (Bimble...), Sunday, 26 February 2006 23:35 (twenty years ago)

You only like the Chameleons because bucking the 'canon' satisifes your male contrarian impulse. (NB I have never heard the Chameleons.)

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:40 (twenty years ago)

Ya punk.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:48 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division. Robert Smith's singing just annoys me. But although I kind of like Joy Division, I could easily do without either band forever.

Well, considering that almost everyone posting on this thread is like 30 and were fans of both bands long before the hipster coverage hit the saturation point, I'm gonna say you're full of shit.

Yeah, I think I had a chance to form opinions before rock orthodoxy set in, liked both Joy Division and the Cure in the early 80s, etc.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:53 (twenty years ago)

Also, I am not a rock enthusiast.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:57 (twenty years ago)

They are all merely boys compared to a real man like Stelios Kazantzidis.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 01:05 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division by 43 furlongs.

― cnwb (cnwb), Monday, 27 February 2006 02:34 (twenty years ago)

I love the Cure but Joy Division still scares me, so JD.

― JB Young (JB Young), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:05 (twenty years ago)

Ha! If Joy Division actually scares you, you should listen to more music, diversify. Because they're about as scary as Bel Biv Devoe. Seriously. You're culling a lot of atmosphere and darkness from a threadbare rhythm section and some dour theatrics. I'm presenting this as an opinion rather than a substantive argument, so please don't kill me.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:54 (twenty years ago)

You only like the Chameleons because bucking the 'canon' satisifes your male contrarian impulse. (NB I have never heard the Chameleons.)

No, they're just the best that UK post-punk/new wave scene has to offer outside of Wire in my very humble opinion. And also because I'm a cliched contratian sort.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:58 (twenty years ago)

This is kinda like Bowie vs. Eno or Devo vs. Kraftwerk or whoever vs. Can ie. you know the hivemind answer before you even open the thread. I know everyone here is *above* being influenced by critical opinon/likes what they like, etc., but c'mon...

― darin (darin), Monday, 27 February 2006 07:43 (twenty years ago)

zzz

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 February 2006 08:43 (twenty years ago)

TS: Take That vs. 23 Skidoo

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 February 2006 08:45 (twenty years ago)

**Ha! If Joy Division actually scares you, you should listen to more music, diversify. Because they're about as scary as Bel Biv Devoe. **

Please continue to amuse us with such opinions, James.

**You're culling a lot of atmosphere and darkness from a threadbare rhythm section and some dour theatrics.**

OK, let's thrash this one out. Threadbare rhythm section - pls explain, I can't imagine what you mean. Because what I hear is a powerful & innovative rhythm section - at times it's Steve + Hooky, sometimes Steve + Barney, sometimes Steve alone and sometimes all of them who are driving the music forward. Dour theatrics - I'm not against theatrics, but surely you can hear that IC is beyond that.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 09:44 (twenty years ago)

The Chameleons? A bit of glum stadium postpunk is fine once in a while, but apart from the odd track, I can't really get excited about them. 'In Shreds' was a cracking track tho.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 09:48 (twenty years ago)

threadbare rhythm section

yeah this really is trash. that pair could well be one of the greatest rhythm sections of all time. inasmuch as you can call what hooky does merely "rhythm"

― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Monday, 27 February 2006 10:01 (twenty years ago)

I think Geir misses the point about how JD/NO wrote music compared with Robert Smith. Compositionally, Smith is a traditional singer/songwriter - a great one. JD were in some ways a product of post-punk idealism in that their songs are group compositions, hence the range of sonic experimentation. JD/NO should be taken as a single continuous entity. There is a progression of style from the JD-penned Ceremony to the happier, poppier: procession -> temptation -> blue monday, but despite the loss of their brilliant lyricist/singer IT IS STILL RECOGNISABLY THE SAME BAND. Therefore you can't pit the Cure's entire output against 2 JD albums and a couple of singles, you have to take the whole, and great as the cure are, they were not responsible for the kind of seismic shift that JD brought, and then did again as NO. I don't buy the whole 'curtis only revered because he topped himself' argument (you also hear it with cobain). By that reckoning Dylan should have died young and not shown human frailty.

― dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 27 February 2006 10:04 (twenty years ago)

Totally OTM, dr x.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 10:20 (twenty years ago)

"Wanna guess my answer to the original question?"

You're stretching my psychic powers to breaking point now Doc.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 27 February 2006 11:59 (twenty years ago)

further thoughts on this. It's inconceivable that jamie cullen would ever cover JD's Heart and Soul, which is so firmly rooted in hook's womb-like bass, steve morris's snare rolls and those glacial keyboards, as much as in curtis' vocal melody and lyrics.
Yes yes I know that Paul Young did Love will tear us apart, but..but.. "that's murder 1, lieutenant..."
The point is that Friday I'm in Love and Boys Don't Cry are pop songs malleable enough to be taken from their creator's hands and covered. The importance of JD/NO's songs lies in sound of the records overall, because of the level of innovation that the group members brought along. No other member of the Cure stands out like that.
I recall Geir arguing that drummers weren't important on an earlier thread (some people suggested he was kidding). But his preference for the Cure over JD is entirely consistent with that view.

― dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 27 February 2006 13:14 (twenty years ago)

Bel Biv Devoe's "Poison" had a killer beat too!

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 27 February 2006 20:04 (twenty years ago)

"Poison" is pretty bad ass actually.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 04:12 (twenty years ago)

This thread did motivate me to dig out my old Cure albums. What immediatly impresses is the strength of songs like Play for Today, M, Other Voices. Boys Don't Cry could almost be the Buzzcocks, albeit without John Maher's wonderful drum racket. A drummer is credited on 17 Seconds, but it sure as hell sounds like a drum machine stuck on the same monotonous setting. Faith is almost completely devoid of colour - an album I've never had much affection for. Compared to the visceral thrill of Disorder, Shadowplay, Colony, it all seems pretty lifeless.
My copy of Pornography went AWOL some years ago, but had a more full-blooded sound, if memory serves. The twisting guitar line in Strange Day and the drum pattern in 100 Years stick in my mind.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 10:49 (twenty years ago)

You picked out the songs that I really like - Play For Today, Other voices etc. I disagree about Faith - I think it's probably their best recd. The resignation and grace of Other Voices/All Cats/Funeral Party/Faith is carried off pretty well. Smith is definitely believeable here. I like the contrast between the core of the album and the thrashings of Primary and Doubt, where he refuses to accept that it's all done and dusted.

I can't say that I ever want to hear Carnage Visors again.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 12:51 (twenty years ago)

I'll try to give Faith another chance, Dr C, but it just reminds me of dull afternoons during 1/2 term not doing my homework. For some reason I thought Charlotte Sometimes was on Faith too, till I looked again - now that was a great tune.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 13:27 (twenty years ago)

faith could be my fave too. it has to do with the fact that it hasn't got played to death on my stereo. there are no standout singles on it as far as i know. it's all of one piece. a moody, understated album. mellow and not as obsessively dark as 17 seconds which is my other choice by them. robert smith hasn't yet become a prisoner of his shtick as on later albums.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 13:35 (twenty years ago)

there are no standout singles on it as far as i know.

Er, "Primary"?????????

― Dan (Am I The Only Person Who Adores This Song?) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:14 (twenty years ago)

i thought everyone liked primary. it's the song that everyone would put on mix-tapes.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:18 (twenty years ago)

**during 1/2 term not doing my homework**

Every time I hear Faith I'm in my university hall of residence, late afternoon when you know you should be in lectures, should be in the library, but you're lying on yr bed in a state of gentle meloncholia. Happy days.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:36 (twenty years ago)

sorry, i forgot primary. it must be the age...

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:53 (twenty years ago)

faith is so fab. i've always thought that seventeen seconds was the weakest cure album of the 80's. and compared to faith (which i was prompted to do in the 80's since i owned the vinyl twofer of 17 seconds/faith) it is downright anemic. two good songs - play for today and its sequel a forest - and that's about it. i don't think at night or m or the title track are all that strong and the instrumentals sounded like filler to me. the debut was a hoot, faith is great, ditto pornography and on and on till i gave up (after disintegration).

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:02 (twenty years ago)

i have fond memories of listening to my faith/carnage visors tape on my first ever walkman in easterhouse in 1982. faith always reminds me of winter. i can happily listen to faith and pornography on repeat but can't really say the same for joy division (with the exception of unknown pleaseures).

― frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Ah beautiful glorious Faith. It for me is the key Cure album after all these years, I can listen to it any time.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:09 (twenty years ago)

faith was a true leap! (sorry) they didn't sound like a skiffle group anymore.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:15 (twenty years ago)

I like the idea of Robert singing "My Old Man's a Dustman."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:17 (twenty years ago)

it just occurred to me that dan perry would LOVE katatonia's discouraged ones album. any cure fan would.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:19 (twenty years ago)

17 seconds anemic? what you describe as filler on it, is the getting into the mood (in the beginning) and the mounting of the tension (the two short instrumentals before a forest). i still think that 17 seconds is one of the starkest and darkest albums around (but of course second to unknown pleasures). especially when listened to in a dark cellar in winter at 3am.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:22 (twenty years ago)

Weren't you cold?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:23 (twenty years ago)

* like the idea of Robert singing "My Old Man's a Dustman." *

How about:

does your hairspray lose it's texture in the bedclothes overnight

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:23 (twenty years ago)

Weren't you cold?
relatively speaking cellars are rather warm in winter compared to the upper floors in a house.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:27 (twenty years ago)

I thought heat travelled upwards.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:54 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but if you're in the cellar you're closer to hell.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:55 (twenty years ago)

isn't that down below

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

you are on the right track, ned. in the cellar you are indeed closer to the centre of the earth. where the temperature doesn't change when the seasons change. in the cellar it is similar. the variation of the temperature is much smaller than in the rest of the house.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:32 (twenty years ago)

University of the Air presents Robert Smith on physics:

"This is a songmurflemumblelowvoicetrailing off...this is called "Cold!""

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:33 (twenty years ago)

it just occurred to me that dan perry would LOVE katatonia's discouraged ones album. any cure fan would.

Definitely.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 17:23 (twenty years ago)

six months pass...

Isn't this incredibly unfair? They have totally different merits!

― J.H. Malerman (xada_hgla), Sunday, 17 September 2006 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

you want fairness? this is ILM, dude.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 17 September 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

now, PICK ONE

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 17 September 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

not heard much JD at all, but exposed to Cure at very early age, so they're now one of my favourite bands, whose songs have always struck me as being perfect emotional pop. Especially Pornography. Pornography is a pop record, and one of the very best; I'm not saying that to sound learned, I genuinely believe it.

I'm not going to make a choice, though, owing to my lack of JD.

― Space Gourmand (Haberdager), Sunday, 17 September 2006 22:33 (nineteen years ago)

I still find this thread deeply irritating.

― Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 September 2006 02:44 (nineteen years ago)

yeh! this is ILM, dude!

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:08 (nineteen years ago)

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