current bands who can't play their instruments for shit that are great

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And don't say The Bangles! Actually, you can say The Bangles. They are a great band that can't really play(I saw them live on t.v. a couple years back and they were soooooooo bad. You'd think they had starting playing that week.) It seems like you have to be a Berklee grad to be in a punk band these days. I cry foul! Punk is the people's music dammit and the people are notoriously lazy when it comes to learning their scales.Even "noize" bands like Lightning Bolt get singled out for being rad jazzbos in disguise. 20 years ago a band like Deerhoof would have been made up of inspired amateurs working their way thru art school instead of inspired virtuosos who sound like shonen knife trying to channel king crimson! I don't know if any of this is true. What i do know is this: American hardcore is in the middle of a deep love affair with Swedish death metal and old Iron Maiden rekkerds and Swedish death metal and old Iron Maiden toons are hard to play! What happens to the 15 year old Flipper fan? So, anyway, who sucks really good?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

UK indie to thread

― fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:19 (nineteen years ago)

he said "great," dude

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:20 (nineteen years ago)

There would have to be some new context for this. Do I want to listen to a fifteen year old Flipper fan's band? Dude would have to be sort of visionary.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

(Or girl, sorry - teh fifteen female Flipper fan)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.pattern25.com/graphics/smoosh/smoosh_curtdoughty2.jpg

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:27 (nineteen years ago)

Toucher

― dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

scott's totally OTM though about the professionalism that's really de rigeur for rock bands now, no matter what style they're playing in. that's cool sometimes but it also seriously undercuts a lot of the fun and appeal of the music (well, what i find appealing about rock music at least).

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:33 (nineteen years ago)

he said "great," dude

-- wangdangsweetpentangle

That's what I get for posting without coffee. Entirely retracted!
I am not Conor McNichols.

― fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

"Do I want to listen to a fifteen year old Flipper fan's band?"

yes. yes you do.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:43 (nineteen years ago)

Art Brut don't sound particularly "accomplished" nor does the singer ever goes beyond the speak-sing thing.

but I don't really know much about their background, tho.

― Viz (Viz), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:47 (nineteen years ago)

Lightning Bolt get singled out for being rad jazzbos in disguise

...when in fact they're this decade's equivalent of Rush.

(but who knows, maybe people though Rush were "rad jazzbos" too. and Kansas were tape-collage artists)

― Lawrence the Looter (Lawrence the Looter), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

Pissed Jeans already.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

Plus all the kids who can't play instruments today "make beats" on their computers.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:52 (nineteen years ago)

Plus all the kids who can't play instruments today "make beats" on their computers.

-- mcd

OTM. But the computer is the instrument innit?

Albeit one in desperate need of a better user control interface than it currently has (the guitarists user interface being "plectrum on strings").

― fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

There have to be some Chicago bands in the tradition of Xerobot and Li'l Combo that fit the bill here.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, Scott, I'm not at all sure that I do! I haven't checked out Pissed Jeans, I guess, because I listened to lots of scum rock in the eighties and nineties and I'm tired of it.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:04 (nineteen years ago)

you're tired of scum rock but yer not tired of psychedelic pop yet?!??!?!

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:05 (nineteen years ago)

There will probably always be a sentimental fondess for inspired amateurishness (I think Deerhoof still has this, despite being "able to play" - the drummer does some amazing things, but not in a way that suggests schooling, rather he just seems really fucking inspired), but not sure in this day and age the idea of a band who really can't play is all that exciting. What is being accomplished there? It's like saying, "yes I'm aware of a many more bands than were my counterparts of the punk era..." - though maybe with less depth? I don't know, another thread probably - "...and yes, I have access to tons of free music to teach me how music goes, and yes, I can even program things myself with free software or take beats from free records, but I reject all of it. I'm going to blind myself to the outside world, and play only music that a) I can't reasonably expect to understand and b) have never heard before." It seems unrealistic.

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:06 (nineteen years ago)

"But the computer is the instrument innit?"

yes. yes it is.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:07 (nineteen years ago)

Do u mean indie psychedelic pop, Ian? The only indie psychedelic pop I like much right now is Of Montreal and Jennifer Gentle. I liked an Elf Power album I bought about four or five years ago.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:09 (nineteen years ago)

I know this is exactly what you would guess I'd say but the Fiery Furnaces are really not very technically proficient; the guitar solos are just horrible, and while the keyboard work is better than I could manage, it's pretty fixated on weird noises and playing around. They sort of sound like what you'd want Deerhoof to be: same complexity, less chops.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

"It seems unrealistic."

it never used to be though. 3 chords & the truth, one chord & the truth, etc, etc. DIY. Let's put on a show. I'm 17 and a complete spazz and i just want to make a racket. all valid reasons to start a band. but would bands like this get laughed off the stage nowadays when even the baby punk bands can play rings around their elders.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

NO MORE FIERY FURNACES

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

i actually did think about the fiery furnaces. way ambitious, but definitely going for stuff that is kinda beyond their reach. i like that about them.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

i will remember Pissed Jeans. Never heard of them.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

OTM. But the computer is the instrument innit?

Did I say it wasn't?

Also, hstencil otm.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

I think DIY like that can only work once, and then it either consumes itself - ie,everyone "knows" how to DIY it, hence it really isn't DIY at all, or the people do eventually either get "better" at their art, or quit.

x-post

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

xpost Yeah, it's a good feature. You see, I just couldn't resist.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:12 (nineteen years ago)

xp to dom a few responses above - i don't know about that, it's just that so much of the awesomest stuff around has come from bands trying to replicate sounds they've had access to, but being unable to do it and getting stuck with doing something different. i don't think it has anything to do with blinding yourself to the outside world - the exact opposite really, just putting all that other information throught the filter of not really having the skillz to reproduce what you're drawing from.

and it's hardly sentimental - i mean, there's so much incredibly bad, awful shit that's the result of bands not being able to play, but when we're talkin rock music i think that the inspiration over technique plank can still be really useful when it comes to the results actually being interesting to listen to.

and on the noisy tip, pissed jeans are really pretty awesome.

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:14 (nineteen years ago)

This thread makes me want to hear Deerhoof kinda. Would I like them?

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

There's nothing to really actively dislike and there's definitely stuff to like--if you're looking for rawer, Reveille is probably the way to go, even if I can't spell the damn word.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:16 (nineteen years ago)

Hurting likes 'em.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

dleone 100% OTM. I can't really see myself getting excited about the fact a band can't play their instruments UNLESS there is something else going on in there, eg a certain brand of humour or an attempt to detract from the fact they can't play.

I'm surprised that Deerhoof and Fiery Furnaces are being mentioned on this thread - I always thought they were amazing and just tried to sound dissonant.

― dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

Deerhoof is all racket and gibberish for the first couple listens, but it does age well, like cheese, wine, and Diane Lane.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005JME9.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― M. Biondi (M. Biondi), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

There's nothing to really actively dislike

Her voice really bothers me, that's the one thing.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

I think a lot of awesome stuff comes from being unable to replicate sounds, and ending up making your own. But I don't think that's the same thing is not being able to play - if anything, it tends to lead to trying even harder to play. I guess I just don't believe in any artist who strives to not understand something. It seems a temporary thing, always fleeting, always a sign that there is more work to do (and from what I can tell, unless the bands disappear altogether, that's usually what happens).

x-post

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

What exactly counts as "not being able to play?" I mean, Yngwie Malmsteen and Steve Vai can play. But do I care?

http://www.satriani.com/2004/discography/Surfing_With_The_Alien/Surfing_With_The_Alien.jpg

― M. Biondi (M. Biondi), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

It's probably more, as Mark says, about trying to do more than you really can and the solutions you come up with to that problem.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

I mean Scott. Oops.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

"I guess I just don't believe in any artist who strives to not understand something."

But what if you just want to make something, like, NOW. You know? Can't you get away with sounding like the marine girls? do you have to sound like belle & sebastian right out of the gate? (god, horrible examples, shoot me now. just thinking that twee didn't equal string sections once upon a time. but maybe yer right. it would simply be affectation now, i guess.)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:31 (nineteen years ago)

Matthew defintely can't play guitar very well and seems fairly proud of that--not having any keyboard chops I can't say how good his are, but he's certainly not Vangelis or anything.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

Er, Matthew Friedberger from the Fiery Furances. Maybe I should stop trying to use proper names today.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, because I thought you were talking about Fluxbl0g. Or Naive Teen Idol.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

well sure, but then what happens next time? that's what I meant by temporary, and how that kind of attitude can really only happen once (for a given situation - I think lots of artists would want to be in situations where what they are doing feels new, is a totally new sensation for them, and they are in some sense amateurs). I get annoyed at people who give props to not being able to play as if it is somehow a value that can be sustained.

x-post to scott

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

"unable to play" is a really loaded/unclear term - like flipper, for example, although they were the exemple used above, were certainly more than capable of locking bass and drums together in a simple, crushing/catchy style and making art-racket guitar noise up top. i mean, it's sort of inherently true that if you're unable to replicate sounds, you're unable to play by the standard of the sounds you're trying to replicate.

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:38 (nineteen years ago)

also, it smacks of vampirism to me. it's like saying I only fuck virgins

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:38 (nineteen years ago)

"I mean, Yngwie Malmsteen and Steve Vai can play. But do I care?"

yer missing my point. i think my point is, or my question is: not being able to play didn't stop people in the past from making a racket, does it stop people now? punk and indie-rock used to be filled with bands that had, at best, a rudimentary knowledge of music, and it wasn't a big deal. it was common.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

and it was usually more interesting, to my ears at least

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

xpost I don't think it's stopping them, but I do think those kinds of bands are not being listened to as widely.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

Electrelane get a fair amount of love on this board and they're very unskilled. Drummer in particular.

― eek, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

Times New Roman strikes me as a band that is sloppy in an unschooled way.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

I also think that bands generally decide they're either going to be as loud and noisy as possible or not at all these days. Either you're thrashing or you're putting down tasteful lines. Not a lot of noise inside a structure or ambitious thrash. Seems to me. But then I don't really like any of the noise bands.

― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

Also, the Thermals.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

That's Times New Viking, eek.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:46 (nineteen years ago)

yes yes yes eek otm

― pssst - badass revolutionary art! (plsmith), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:46 (nineteen years ago)

i think my point is, or my question is: not being able to play didn't stop people in the past from making a racket, does it stop people now? actually, I think it does cause a lot of people to wait longer before trying (or letting the world in on their trials) - not just in music, but in everything (hence, "twixters")

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

dom reads newsweek!

― pssst - badass revolutionary art! (plsmith), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:49 (nineteen years ago)

who is in the "old guard" of bands who can't play, besides flipper?

― pssst - badass revolutionary art! (plsmith), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

Joy Division, for one.

― eek, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

Best thread ever

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

that's the thing though, is that they could play, just not in conventional ways - i guess that's what bothers me about indie/punk/rock in general now, is that everyone sounds so generically capable.

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

Wasn't Ted Falconi actually kind of skilled on the guitar - perhaps in an unusual way? I'll have to listen to some old Flipper again.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:00 (nineteen years ago)

Hey buddy, flipper couldn't play? WTF???? Falconi's playing...it's...oh never mind you people have no ears.

― willsh atter, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

There you go.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

x-post...sorry, bad connection over here on the other side

― willsh atter, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

raincoats skilled? slits skilled?

― pssst - badass revolutionary art! (plsmith), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

animal collective?

― pssst - badass revolutionary art! (plsmith), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

Raincoats and Slits are the ne plus ultra of great unskilled bands. Though there is some cheating via inclusion of skilled musicians on some of the albums (e.g. Budgie on "Cut", R. Wyatt and Ch. Hayward on "Odyshape"). No accident that Fiery Furnaces and Electrelane are both Raincoats-inspired at times.

― eek, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:09 (nineteen years ago)

What about Country Teasers or the Hospitals or Miminokoto or the Coolies, etc.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

e.g. Budgie on "Cut", R. Wyatt and Ch. Hayward on "Odyshape" I think Xgau said something about the NY Dolls to the effect that it was OK that they couldn't play too well because their drummer was a pro who could hold it together.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:15 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think that Flipper couldn't play AT ALL, they could play, but being able to play well was hardly their point. and they certainly weren't afraid to sound shitty whilst capturing energy in a bottle and then stomping on the bottle. x-post up there somewhere

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, listen to the ROIR tape from when Billy Murcia was in the Dolls and you hear how OTM that was. x-post

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

not really knowing how to play that well used to be a feminist statement in the go go 90's (and maybe in the 70s & 80's, someone who read old u.k. rock papers could tell me). so, maybe the rrrrriot girlz killed the fun for everyone.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

having one ringer in the band goes a long way. bunnybrains almost always had one person in the band that could actually play guitar.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:20 (nineteen years ago)

The Futurians (from New Zealand). An incredible amount of enthusiasm for Dr Who (one of their records is called Pimp My Tardis), a synth, guitar, drums, and tons of delay on the vocals. I've got a radio session from Foxglove that's pretty fun to listen to. maybe some of the weirdo Finnish bands fall into this? Maybe there is a punk-attitude requirement that a lot of that stuff lacks?

― Tripmaker (SDWitzm), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

You peeps is forgetting about the paradox raised by Stewart here

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

Deerhoof I think they're OK, but everytime I listen to them I feel like I'd rather listen to Oneida.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:40 (nineteen years ago)

New ILX Brokedown Sinking Titanic State makes quoting and responding that much trickier.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:41 (nineteen years ago)

This is a totally burning question. The points, cynic-chumps, are a) unmusicians use music to realise unmusicianly ideas = ART; and b) unaffected amateurism randomly generates excitement in different ways to faux-skronk. But I don't know anybody doing this at the moment. The bits of the Arctic Rolls that I like give me that feeling, but those moments are precious few. Netlabels and other outsider-artarsenals are prob;ly the only places left to look. Vanity publishing is our friend.

― Raw, Uncompromising, and Noodly (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:46 (nineteen years ago)

how do people feel about this piece:

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0301,maerz,40911,22.html

(It must be memorable cuz i remember it all the way from 2003! And Ann Powers wrote a similar thing that I also sorta remember about the same sorta thing.)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:03 (nineteen years ago)

mostly this part:

"And Sheer Frost, refusing to believe a guitar god's "performance" should be aimed toward cock-rock conquest, manages to champion chance over composition, play over technical prowess, cooperation over "Free Bird"-solo individualism—all without directly touching their instruments. Macho rock bands may make you feel alive, but the Sheer Frost Orchestra makes you feel human. If all improv music can be pulled off with such polish, then let us all grow nine-inch nails."

(but the whole thing leads to this paragraph, so it might lose something out of context)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

It sounds cool but isn;t that kind of amateurism in the service of Art not the same as the amateurism in the service of what-the-hell that you're thinking of, scott?

― Raw, Uncompromising, and Noodly (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

this is true. i'm not really yay or nay about the maerz piece. i see her point. but, yeah, i am all about the goofy unbridled enthuisiasm that non-musicians can bring to music.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

art or otherwise.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

"i guess that's what bothers me about indie/punk/rock in general now, is that everyone sounds so generically capable. "

zack, i totally agree.

― JD from CDepot, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:13 (nineteen years ago)

pavement as art project -vs- pavement as jam band (actually i like both and please pretend that i never brought up pavement oh dear lord what have i done)

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

"i guess that's what bothers me about indie/punk/rock in general now, is that everyone sounds so generically capable. "
Um, this is why I moved back from Austin in 1994.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

Lately I listen to a lot of stuff and wonder what the difference would be between random noise-making and willful art-statement off-beatness. On the bus today the Konono No. 1 album, like couldn't they use differently keyed thumb guitars to avoid soooo repetitiousness? Are people enjoying this despite itself or against itself? But they're kind of immaterial questions, except that they offer a clue to what makes its appeal to us: absence of jazz, a feeling of single-minded aesthetic because likely it's produced not-knowingly.

But once your ears are tuned to appreciate the random or the wrong, is there any scale of judgement left? Isn't everything great now?

― Raw, Uncompromising, and Noodly (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, there's a scale of judgement left: your interpretation of the quality of inspiration in the music's creation.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

And your feelings about its aesthetic context.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

alright so their website expired but isn't this thread talking about what the magik markers do? their lead guitarist uses what noodlevague succinctly put as point a, or is it b? argh!

― jdchurchill (jdchurchill), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

x post

That's rocky rocky ground, Tim. I'm supposed to mind-read the "quality of inspiration"? I've got more faith in how the thing hits me at any one moment, which is subject to subjective flux, but I at least have some sensory data there.

― Raw, Uncompromising, and Noodly (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:24 (nineteen years ago)

Actually I'm lying there because a whole bunch of extra-sensory information affects how I'm listening, including my sense of the band's personality and place and ability, including my sense of their a(ma/a)uteurism, but they;re subjective judgements too. What scott means is the belief or the wanting to believe in the not being able to play for shit, I think. A band's ability to generate willing suspension of disbelief? But those aren't scales of judgement with a top and a bottom mark so much as paint samplers where I compare the colour against the particular shade I happen to want.

― Raw, Uncompromising, and Noodly (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:32 (nineteen years ago)

I would imagine that for a lot of us there's no reason NOT to believe in the idea that people who can't play for shit can be great. But in rock history, anyway, it's been mostly tied in with punk. Liking Velvets more than Cream = punk. Liking the Stooges more than Yes = punk.

The only other real instance I can think of in rock history where "can't play for shit" bands made a significant impact was in indie rock dating back to the '80s. And it was significant not for punk reasons but because these bands were pointing toward a new pop music, i.e., Shonen Knife were great not because they were punk but because they were writing great songs. Now that "indie rock" has broken into real commercial success and become a big, well-produced, well-executed pop product, you don't want to hear a band writing songs of this type but not playing them well or recording them well anymore.

It's going to take some significant new form of music being suggested by people who can't play well for it to matter again.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:42 (nineteen years ago)

remember that great article in Spy magazine about the faux-naif? i wish i had a copy of that. i guess Moldy Peaches are a recent example of that aesthetic. Kevin Blechdom would be another one. tweecore will probably always have a place under the indie-rock umbrella. I can't say that I enjoy the recent stuff as much as I enjoyed Oh Ok and The Pastels when I was a teen. There have just got to be lots of stupid sloppy one-chord punk bands out there, I just never hear them.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:22 (nineteen years ago)

"having one ringer in the band goes a long way. bunnybrains almost always had one person in the band that could actually play guitar. "============== http://www.fecalface.com/whatever/dailies/2-27-06/bunnybrains-02.jpg that ratio is dwindling..we have become less accomplished w time

― dan bunnybrain (dan bunnybrain), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:46 (nineteen years ago)

well, you are just kinda going back to your roots.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

i think what might have changed is that there are actually thousands of bands that can't play. check out myspace for half an hour. it's so easy to start a band these days that any kid with his crate amp and squire guitar / demo of fruity loops can make some music. there's just so much muck that its hard to find any inspired amateurs.

the "uncool" non- "art scene" kids play hundreds of shows at vfw halls in a place like long island. there are some decent ones mixed in there but who's willing to sift through that when its so much easier to find your new love by clicking around for a few hours.

― Udbhav Gupta (udbhav gupta), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

EARLY MAN

― THE GUITARIST GUITARZAN SPOCKTACKULAR, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

you just know that there are some good ones at the vfw hall and even on myspace. but, yeah, sifting thru all that stuff takes awhile.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:17 (nineteen years ago)

I can see that - maybe the "lack" of inspired amateurs is more indicative of a sum of all preferences (on the internet?) leading to more professionalism vs more diy kids

x-post

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

Are you drawing a distinction between inspired amateurs who are doing something NEW and ORIGINAL sounding vs. rock n' roll bands with energy and songs that don't have the tightest musicians in the world?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

"but isn't this thread talking about what the magik markers do?"
-yes yes and yes.

about Konono No. 1: It's repetitious, but that's the way most polyrhythmic African music is. That's why it's so much better.

― trees (treesessplode), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:30 (nineteen years ago)

me or dominique? i was just wondering about bands today making cool music despite having little/no training/lessons. it didn't have to be someone reinventing the wheel.

x-post

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

and, also, that i don't seem to hear as much rank amateurism as i used to and that hardcore bands today make blink 182 sound like the shaggs. (hyperbole alert)

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:35 (nineteen years ago)

(yeah, I did mean you)

I see your point, but surely there are still lots of good bands who couldn't play a Rush song if their lives depended on it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:43 (nineteen years ago)

see, that's why i was asking! i happen to like rank amateurism some of the time. Not all of the time though.

Maria, my better half, is completely in love with this girl's song that she saw on Youtube. I couldn't find it on the Youtube site, but Maria has it on her Myspacepage. I think it's pretty adorable. Others may gag:

http://www.myspace.com/mariad

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:01 (nineteen years ago)

Now I'm worried that they will be offended if they see this thread.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:10 (nineteen years ago)

xpost to Scott

There are plenty of people who have no training that become good just by playing. I remember some interview with Britt Daniel (on pitchfork maybe) where he continuously put down his knowledge of theory against somebody like Paul Simon. But then, I don't think that kind of distinction was your point (Spoon would definitely fall pretty far from the sloppy side of musicianship, which has a lot to do with their drummer, Jim Eno).

Speaking of Enos, wasn't the more famous Eno a firm supporter of anti-musicianship? But then, I think there are two things you can teach yourself in music, technical prowess (like those assholes Dreamtheater), or training your ears to catch something worthwhile when it accidentally spills out of your instrument. I think what Spoon and Eno do is a world away from a DIY/punk aesthetic, but at the same time I wouldn't call them remarkably proficient with their instruments. In the end, its the idea that matters, and some people excel at getting that across without knowing every modal scale in existence.

― Udbhav Gupta (udbhav gupta), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:21 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's a false dichotomy. If you can write and play songs that sound cool you are a good musician. Musicianship doesn't necessarily equal playing in a technically showy or polished way.

But I totally disagree with you on this one, Scott Seward. I couldn't be more happy to see the return of technical capability in indie rock. I find your initial post to be a bit like asking for more professional basketball players who airball a lot or painters who don't have a very good sense of color and have trouble executing their ideas well.

I don't believe in this "unbridled enthusiasm of the amateur" myth either. Once someone has been playing/recording/touring enough that they're actually a name people know, they're generally quite practiced and in no real sense an "amateur" anymore. Amateurs are uncomfortable on stage and timid about their ideas. Amateurs are generally quite bridled.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 04:20 (nineteen years ago)

Jad Fair once advised that when learning to play guitar, tuning all the strings on a guitar to one note makes it easier because you know what you're going to get.

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 06:25 (nineteen years ago)

i would say the raveonettes pre pretty in black but foo studied Hindustani classical music befre forming the band

― kephm (kephm), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 07:12 (nineteen years ago)

I think the topic was stated more clearly than a lot of y'all are allowing. Spoon/Eno might not be virtuosi in any conventional sense, but you'd never say they "can't play their instruments for shit." B. Daniel can play a solid rhythm guitar, oh the drums, etc. Have you heard the first Raincoats album, the Slits Peel Sessions? Ok then. It doesn't have to be held up as superior to more polished music, but it's an interesting phenom.

― eek, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 07:49 (nineteen years ago)

Wesley Willis

(stretching 'current' and 'band' here)

― sfdsdfa, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 07:53 (nineteen years ago)

I only got about 10 posts into this thread before getting annoyed, but...

1) Actually, Smoosh could probably technically kick your ass.

2) I've toured with The Bangles, and seen them playing close up. They're very good musicians.

So, WTF?

― I'm Not Afraid Of Singularities (kate), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/MarkGrout/AAGuitrock.jpg
Well, if you're going to post pictures...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:38 (nineteen years ago)

Your kids are so cool, Mark. Can they be our support band on our next tour? :-)

― I'm Not Afraid Of Singularities (kate), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

"The Amber and Alice Band"

(you see what I did there?)

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:49 (nineteen years ago)

I worked as an editor at a music studio for a year and so and the lack of inspired amateurs may have a lot to do with the widespread availability of pro tools, beat detective, and autotune. You can get the lowest line version of pro tools hardware for around $400. You wouldn't believe the amount of awful shit I had to edit that sounded like it had been played by semi-decent musicians by the end of the editing process. But it sucks any kind of inspiration and humanity out of the music, especially autotune. A lot of big teenager-friendly "rock" bands like Taking Back Sunday and My Chemical Romance sound really lifeless yet professional because of heavy-handed editing and production.

― Udbhav Gupta (udbhav gupta), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Jad Fair once advised that when learning to play guitar, tuning all the strings on a guitar to one note makes it easier because you know what you're going to get.
-- js (roc...), Yesterday 10:25 PM. (honestengine)

Actually David Fair.
http://www.wfu.edu/~breckers/howtoplayguitar.htm

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

Whups!

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

"the cramps" of course.
i don't know if they are mentioned, i'm too tired to read it all..

― care for that stuff, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

I just watched the Mogwai DVD that comes with their new album and the bassist and drummer are absolutely gash. Definitely Electrelane -- that awful woman who writes for Wire in particular is a terrible guitarist but acts like she's a bloody whizz.

― Wax Cat (Wax Cat), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

wouldn't beat happening be in the "old guard" of amateur bands

― ad (okayokay), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

Avarus.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

I just watched the Mogwai DVD that comes with their new album and the bassist and drummer are absolutely gash.

Which drummer? The 'gwai have two! The live (and original) drummer was too shit in the studio so they've had a studio drummer, since Rock Action iirc.

― jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

The Cramps are current? If they are, and they started out not being able to play their instruments for shit (don't know if it's true, the style they played wasn't very demanding) I find it hard to believe that they still can't after all these years.

― eek, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

Bulb Records is dead

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

Speaking of fifteen year old (or probably twenty-something year old) Flipper fans' bands ...

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 9 March 2006 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

right! Flipper! and The Shaggs...are they mentioned here?!

and Lucia Pamela - if a voice is an instrument - she can't play it for shit.

― grrrrrrrll, Friday, 10 March 2006 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

uh, Poison Ivy is a GREAT guitarist.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 March 2006 00:17 (nineteen years ago)

The Bangles rocked like a big rocky thing whilst playing "Hazy Shade of Winter" on SNL. The rocked as much as the Go-Gos ever did, and certainly didn't appear to be looking down at the frets or anything of that nature.

― The Mad Puffin (The Mad Puffin), Friday, 10 March 2006 00:47 (nineteen years ago)

i don't know what there problem was when i saw them on t.v. maybe they hadn't played the songs in a long time. they were memorably horrible.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 10 March 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

ESG fit the bill.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 March 2006 09:27 (nineteen years ago)

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