"he poos clouds" by Final Fantasy, early contender for album of the year

Cloud's hair>>Final Fantasy

PREPARE TO HAVE JUSTICE SERVED!!!!!!

if the record had sounded anything like sufjan stevens i would've shot myself out of boredom

can you imagine being waking up as sufjan? "what should i do today? write a song? doodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle. doodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle-oodle."

xpost

final fantasy x is entirely, wholly gay, from start to finish. the female characters were so weak that they had to make an all-girl sequel. you can tell that gays are pulling the strings when none of the characters have beards. also, a lot of father-son conflicts.

final fantasy vii is absolutely, supremely gay. cloud is a tortured homo, hiding his true feelings by pretending to be conflicted between tifa and aeris. then aeris dies and he can spend the rest of his life "never getting over her" when really, he's having a hard time actually killing his tortured homo crush. the final scenes of final fantasy vii could've been taken from a mishima novel.

the least gay final fantasy is final fantasy vi. also, the most enjoyable.

i feel like there is some wise aphorism hidden in there, but i can't quite find it.

the album's a marvel.

The name comes from the video game, which Pallett admits he doesn't have the patience to play. "I like the idea of it, this big gay thing," he says, citing his interest in Japanese culture and literature.

oh man, FF7 gives me the most fucked-up dreams EVER, regardless of how long i play it.

"He Poos Clouds" is a preposterous, over-the-top statement of devotion, much like "I Am So In Fucking Love With Him" or "He's A Prince". The presence of "poo" in the title is meant to defuse the potential seriousness associated with an album of string quartet music. A lovely side effect: half-assed listeners are weeded out.

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a thread about me me me but I read this board a lot and felt I should defend myself.

thank you

dec

-- Owen Pallett (opallet...) (webmail), April 15th, 2006. (Owen Pallett)

Trust me, not a good idea.

I saw your show with the Arcade Fire in Asheville, NC. It was very nice.

http://rateyourmusic.com/album_images/o473805.jpg

"dave and morley quickly, yet surreptitiously, crossed the street as a gaggle of racially mixed teenagers approached, chatting loudly in a language absolutely incomprehensible to them. dave shook his head ruefully and mused aloud, 'this neighborhood has sure changed.'"

are you still in for the Enya tribute comp? It is happening! This fall!

Consider me weededed

No.

Owen, please name your record something else, for your (and your label's) sake. Because while a lot of people here will tell you that they will listen to your record in spite of it, note that they have not promised to buy it. "He Poos Clouds" is a title that is going to cost you some money. As Trayce points out, a lot of casual browsers are going to pass right over your record because they're going to think your the indie Bloodhound Gang or something.

Plus, are you really going to want to look back twenty years from now and see that you have an album called "He Poos Clouds" in your ouvre? (Maybe you will, I dunno...but this is something to consider.)

Please make another Jim Guthrie album.

Yours,
Cough.

ihttp://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=10:fsjgtq0zmu42

ihttp://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=10:mqx8b5t4psqh

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/neurofuzzy/the%20silence/shark-sandwich.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002MP2.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Um, I haven't heard it though, so I will just say that I hope there is yelling, because I liked the songs on the last one that had yelling.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1997/1101970407_400.jpg

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1993/1101930315_400.jpg

Not certain but I believe the line graph of pretentious from Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven to He Poos Clouds travels in a southerly direction.

If Owen named the album "He Shits Fruit Salad", his intentions behind chosing the original title would be so much clearer.

Seriously.

Call me squeamish, etc. But that's just the way it is. And maybe he should have thought about that before going as far as calling his album that. It doesn't just weed out half-assed listeners, because I am the farthest you can get from that. But it does weed out naturally squeamish people. I can't really help that, and frankly it pisses me off that he wouldn't think that's a possible result of having such a stupid fucking title.

Hahahahahaha, OTM Melissa W, OTM. I enjoy poo jokes as much as the next guy, but I can't say that I've found them "witty" since I was five.

Uh, remind me never to share an apartment with you, melissa.
Why, you aren't house-trained?

I enjoy --- jokes as much as the next guy, but I can't say that I've found them "witty" since I was five.
Yeah, I completely fail to see the 'wit' in this. Nor do I really see it as gentle. There's a certain aggressiveness involved in naming your album something repulsive, no matter how silly. I mean, saying he wants to weed out "half-assed listeners" pretty much illustrates that.

But seriously, poo is agressive? I see poo at least once a day if I've been eating my veggies.

And I want my bathroom experiences and my albums to be truly separate.

"He Poos Clouds" is a preposterous, over-the-top statement of devotion, much like "I Am So In Fucking Love With Him" or "He's A Prince". The presence of "poo" in the title is meant to defuse the potential seriousness associated with an album of string quartet music. A lovely side effect: half-assed listeners are weeded out?

God, I know that when I am moved to utter a preposterous, over-the-top statement of emotion, I reach right for the poo.

my point stands, though. it's a great album. the word "poo" doesn't even appear in the lyrics (i don't think). and it's really disappointing to me that you'd write it off on the basis of a title you find dumb.

in its own way it's kind of grotesquely romantic. i didn't like the title until i really considered it, because i truly hate the word 'poo' as well. now i like the title at least in some part because he dared to name it something that asks the listener/reader/shopper to wonder about it.

OHH! You're right, that's so clever!

I'm all for being open minded, et al, and I don't judge books by their cover, but I do judge book covers, and there is a significant difference.

"Oh man, don't go in there; I took a major grumpy!"

And furthermore, "Poos" is a verb that doesn't necessarily include any fecal substance. This is not a shit joke, nor a cry for attention. "He Poos Clouds" signifies the exaggeration of the mundane to ridiculous proportions, which summarizes the album's intent.

In a world with such unclever album titles such as "Your Arsenal", "Who Stole The I Walkman?", "Hail To The Thief" and "Come On, Feel The Illinoise!" I'm surprised that this album title in particular has come under any such scrutiny.

As for naming the band Final Fantasy: this project existed in basements and benefit concerts for a year before attracting any attention outside of Toronto. I recognize that the name may cause legal problems, and makes it difficult for Googlers to find satisfaction.
However, a name change without sufficient cause would constitute an act of cowardice, and I have no interest in making a change until it is absolutely necessary.

You could always change your name to "Poopy poop shit."

"In a world with such unclever album titles such as "Your Arsenal", "Who Stole The I Walkman?", "Hail To The Thief" and "Come On, Feel The Illinoise!" I'm surprised that this album title in particular has come under any such scrutiny."

this appears to be a matter of personal taste. I'm sure Thom Yorke has some elaborate explanation for his awful album title too, even if he doesn't take the time to register it here (which I greatly appreciate, by the way.)

I promise you won't see my face on bus shelter ads so long as I'm allowed to air the laundry on a forum. It's cheaper and more fun than, say, "hiring a publicist".

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00008OM39.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

HE POOS CLOUDS, SAY IT LOUD, HEAR IT FINE
I'MA A BIG FAN OF INTERNAL RHYME

POOOOOOOOOOOO! Ya heard?

None of those titles, however, actually made me retch, so there you go.

Nor does art made with elephant dung.

But it's kinda like my friend who went and worked on the oil rigs. He's an avid reader, so he had to cloak all his high brow literature with covers from Stephen King novels to avoid getting his ass kicked, or getting too many puzzled enquiries about why he would read a book by DOSTOYEVSKY, or some such author.

I just don't think I would be willing to lay "He Poos Clouds" on my coffee table. Call me repressed.

POO POO POO YA POO YA WANT TO? WANT TO GO WHERE I'VE I NEVER LET YOU BEFORE!

I bet Momus could have done better.

what is "po-faced?"

it's a shame aa milne had to ruin a perfectly good kids' book about a charming and lovable bear by giving him such a repulsive name.

---, however, makes me retch.

Chocolate Starfish and the Hot Dog Flavored Water vs He Poos Clouds.

I think this thread should be about what school of magic, is best, basically. Anyone who says necromancy is chump supreme.

Ok, done.

really looking forward to the new one, too, though I fear I must side with those who think the title, while admittedly kinda funny, isn't really so good as an album title BUT you gotta follow that muse even if it tells you to poo clouds!

handsome dick had a very good lawyer working pro bono (presumably they're friends?), so money wasn't going to be an issue for him.

But I don't want to say this album's name. I like it, but I can't bring myself to type it. It'll appear, censored, on my top 50. I'll buy the album and throw out the cover. I'll never actually tell anyone out loud that this is a good album.

It's like that stupid fucking Royal Trux album cover. That's not something I want to own or contemplate.

I mean, I know this is making me sound insane the more I go on about it, but it just pisses me off.

I like to feel proud of the albums I like, not ashamed of even saying their names.

He Makes Poopy and Wipes His Ass With Rainbows will never be my favorite album of all time, y'know?

Yes.

The, like, genuine and overwhelming loathing for the even childishly scatalogical is for me really weird. It makes me put my Freud glasses on.

I love this thread.

-- lf (lfamula...), April 17th, 2006 9:18 PM.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pof1.htm

It’s common enough in Britain as a term for someone who is priggish, narrow-minded, disapproving or humourless... Po-faced was perhaps applied to such people because they react to insalubrious comments with a look of insufficiently disguised distaste, as if suddenly presented with a used chamber pot.

As in, "Melissa W seems like a good sort; it's too bad she started acting so po-faced on the Final Fantasy thread."

I wish Dan Bunnybrain were here.

i honestly can't believe so many people are so appalled by the title and it would actually effect their ability to listen to it.

it's a brilliant record. poo or no poo.

if I could I'd throw a bag of poo at melissa just for shits and giggles

turdpooshitasscrapfartdung

-- Melissa W (MelCarame...), Today 7:00 AM. (Melissa W) (later)

actually "all he did" was MAKE the album you're liking a lot so far

above list seems more serious, somehow more dignified even as dignity is stripped via graphic imagery of title, all in danger of being very pretensious. below list is sillier, more over the top, totally lacking in irony and yet cannot be taken seriously. He Ejaculates Clouds might actually work because it approaches dada-ist territory (or Boredoms territory), though it's still a kind of painful juxtaposition of the "tasteful" and the "dorky". Apparently the "poos clouds" was going for that too, but I guess the main problem is not that it isn't "serious" but that it's hard to "take seriously".

above list seems more serious, somehow more dignified even as dignity is stripped via graphic imagery of title, all in danger of being very pretensious. below list is sillier, more over the top, totally lacking in irony and yet cannot be taken seriously.

in short:

pooing, farting, ejaculating = funny
shits, vomits, bleeds = not funny

art = not funny!

As if people on this board are suddenly without a place to download music. What, was Pitchfork's /1up/, /2up/ filled entirely from ILX YSI threads?

who knew

i think Zappa's career shows that a musician can use over-the-top humor while maintaining a serious side. In the meanwhilst, the title clearly gets people talking which is probably the best thing for FF's career.

but really, that's not what I really take from that - more the "take seriously" aspect of the title. It's like, Boredoms can get away with something like that (even though poo is such a twee word anyway, they'd never use it) because you get the feeling they could give a fuck if you took them seriously, and really, the more put off you are by them, the better. But from what I'm reading, this CD isn't like that - the title is almost a cop-out, a detour away from the music

and to x-post, yeah I kind of don't go for some of Zappa's stuff for the same reason

Let me second that.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/compdiff/conradpo.jpg

That said, I also think that it sounds absolutely awful. I actually can't understand why people think this is brilliant-- flat flat flat flat flat flat.

(No offence meant. I just can't get into it)

What Owen really needs is a hype man to follow him around while waving a t-shirt overhead.

I look forward to hearing this album.

*~ 4/6/06 The Day YSI Died ~*

http://www.youaintnopicasso.com/2006/04/18/qa-with-owen-pallett-of-final-fantasy/

this is the most hilarious thing i've ever seen on the internet. as the guy who 'runs' owen's 'label' (we're a worker's co-op) i have to say that "I don't care" and also "the title is hilarious to us".

plus: it's funny. and owen has a good sense of humour.

But, in the end, Tracy Bonham would rule the day.

http://generation9.kanshima.net/FF6/combats/Combat%20Ultros%2001.jpg

The eight year olds have the right idea here. Poo is gross, something to be flushed, it doesn't belong in your record collection.

While the writing of most albums begins with a series of abstract ideas, solidified slowly throughout the recording and mixing processes, Owen Pallett, making records as “Final Fantasy,” set out with a plan. More specifically, he began with a list. Before beginning work on He Poos Clouds, he put together the following guide in order to help make the album a fantasy-based reality:

1. The album will be a set of songs that attempt to modernize each of the eight D&D schools of magic.

2. Every song will be written for string quartet and voice.

3. Nobody who listens to it will ever again entertain thoughts of suicide.

Looking forward to hearing this, as I can definitely stand behind those three foci.

He done took your poo theme, bwoys, and done run with it. Kudos to dem 'lixers!

If so, then dainty vulgarities win.

Incidentally, the posters at Zoilus are very disappointed in us:

http://www.zoilus.com/documents//2006/000747.php

I knew there was a reason I didn't read that board, and this thread reminds me why. Way too much snarky, pretentious wankery...and I'm generally a fan of that stuff.

Posted by matthew at April 20, 2006 04:41 PM

Seriously, "He Poos Clouds" incites that kind of reaction? Matt is right. Message board from hell.

Posted by luisa irene at April 20, 2006 07:28 PM

What? You two wouldn't happen to be members of Harper's cabinet, would you?

That thread is an classic of the genre.

Candid input from the object of discussion!

It just doesn't get any better than that.

Posted by Martin at April 21, 2006 06:22 AM

He poos clouds cause he talks shit - about Sufjan mostly. Owen should stick to music and stay away from message boards.

" Way too much snarky, pretentious wankery..." Or as Carl put it. "Owen kind of misguidedly intervenes..."

Has Esthero taught him nothing?

Posted by Justin at April 21, 2006 08:15 AM

I feel this way about 'What's my name' by DMX. Maybe apart from the father-son conflicts.

Zoilus is the blog of Globe and Mail critic Carl Wilson, who's one of the most perceptive writers on pop music I know.

i've not heard this album, i just got round to hearing "has a good home" which i liked a lot!

Oddly enough, I met Carl at the EMP conference some days after my post and he does seem like a fine fellow. Final Fantasy did not come up in our brief conversations.

I noticed just now how "Your Blues" makes a perfect compliment to reading posts about yourself.

"It's Gonna Take An Airplane" is my bejewelled, MIDI amulet of protection.

Someone's deluded.

Someone's unaware of the concept of exaggeration.

Hence the short-lived career of Altered Images.

Do like the New Pornographers, though. Even if their name is kind of embarrassing.

"poop" is okay though.

seriously, rent the dreamers or something.

Still light-years better than this Final Fantasy album title, mind you.

Do Make Say Think close enough for you? Or Which one of those Constellation bands did the wonderful Blue Monday cover?

The new Pornographers name was nowhere near as embarrassing as the album cover art on Mass Romantic.

Someone doesn't seem to realize that Owen was serious. Go poo some clouds or something.

WHO WAS IT

What background?

I think it's a great name.

and i love the video of you and guy from grizzly bear doing mariah carey

WHO WAS IT

hanged up (on their first lp) & it r00ls

hanged up (on their first lp) & it r00ls

I think it was called New Blue Monday or something. Though with Iran once again in the World Cup its time to go dig up the Exhaust album.

Is that true? Because I sure hate to think of music like that. I love to think of an entire album as a complete piece, including title, cover art, people/bands/places thanked in the liner notes, etc. I sure hope I'm not just interested in music marketing. How boring that'd be.

oh, and this album is good, but not as good as his first.

FF3/6 is the best though :)

I want to hear that new b-side in which he reportedly quotes Ives.

I owned a Venetian Snares EP that always bugged me due to it's kiddie-porn-baiting album cover (painting of a nude little girl, surrounded by ejaculating penises, a lolipop in her cunt). And there are TONS of excellent deathmetal, grind and HC records that I avoid looking at due to the grody pix of corpsemeat that festoon the jackets...

I get the intent behind the album title.

I dig the cover art.

And I think the band name is rad (in every sense of the word).

But the whole thing, when you put it all together, it more than flirts with goofy. Frankly, it sticks its tongue down goofy's throat with an abandon that Zappa would have envied.

No offense Owen, but if you don't know anything about the music or the intent, the package itself suggests that the contents will be willfully, flagrantly goofy. Given that title, that name, and that picture, we quite reasonably expect something ham-fisted and "nutzoid." Something like an indie-rock Mr. Bungle, Bathtub Shitter, or the Residents.

And we might as well admit that the garish, transgressive, anarchic spirit of such artists is absolutley ANATHEMA to the arid, uptight prudes who (mostly) populate the indie rock megaverse.

Now, I don't like to think I'm a prude. I love Bathtub Shitter, and often fuck farm animals just to keep my cred up. Hell, I don't even have trouble typing the word "poo!" But I do have a strong aversion to the flagrantly goofball shit. So, I can see why this title is, as others have said, gonna be an obstacle to a LOT of card-carrying "indie rockers" (oxymoron alert).

P.S. - GREAT RECORD, by the way...

Exactly. I just think it's not evocative or emblematic of the music at all. But he's obviously in his right to call it whatever he likes. I just wonder if less people would admit to loving Laughing Stock if it were called Pooping Stock.

But it it doesn't really transcend the genre (like, say, Illinois).

But it it doesn't really transcend the genre (like, say, Illinois).

-- fuckfuckingfuckedfucker (icantbelieveitsnotcoloncance...), July 31st, 2006.

Where do you even begin with something like this?

Thanks ILM.

And it's certainly polite-ish. Aside from the album title, it's tasteful, cerebral and fairly restrained. Doesn't jump from pop-metal, to hip-hop to country, for example. While it's not minimal tech house, it wouldn't cause most self-consciously "cool" people to make a little mou of distaste upon hearing it. Not saying that it lacks a sense of humor, but this isn't garishly grotesque music, and it does operate within established parameters of coolness (as defined in the 21st century indie-[not]-rock playbook, with which I think we all share a familiarity).

And white-ish? Come on.. This is as lily-livered as white music gets -- outside IDM circles, anyway. Dislike the racializing of everything? Fine, but that doesn't change the fact that this music reflects the traditions of a very specific ethnic culture.

Is it indebted to textbook indie/emo in the post-Sebadoh, appealing-to-weird-Christians mold? FUCK YES. The vocal delivery sure owes something to the school. But that's hardly the end of it...

And saying Western art music now "reflects the traditions of a very specific ethnic culture" (very specific? Really?) worries me less for its racializing aspects than its anthropologizing aspects...

Butthole Surfers presented music with not-polite lyrics. Toby Keith. 2 Live Crew. Just about any rap or metal band you can name. A lot of country. Crass, dumb, obvious, gauche, unrepentantly unsophisticated.

This is not music for tipping cows. This is not music for molesting drunken strippers. This is not music for driving around small towns looking to score meth. This is not music for mugging Chinese food delivery guys. This is would-be-literature, and literature (in the American early 21st century) is inherently polite. While He Poos Clouds has some bite, it operates out of and is aimed at a smart, well-behaved, white college educated sensibility. Hence, polite.

What do you mean "anthropologing aspects?" In listening to this record, we are able to discern quite a lot about the person who made it. What he thinks is funny. What he thinks is sad. What he reads and watches on TV. Where he grew up (suburbia). What he thinks sounds good. What he thinks is important. What he thinks is true. And it's clearly a he. And he's clearly white. And he clearly prizes his education. And he clearly feels at home in his culture, never flaunting a sense of oppression or of alienation from the culture at large. And he's slightly self-mocking, and he clearly thinks that being slightly sef-mocking is charming. And one would be willing to bet that he wears second-hand clothes.

"Western art music" is a big umbrella. But given that, it's not absurd to say that Western art music embodies a very specific cultural point-of-view. Parsing the nature of that POV shouldn't be off-limits. And I'd argue that it's often overwhelmingly white, educated and middle-to-upper class.

Exactly - that's why it's kind of meaningless to bring up the "ethnic group" someone like Owen Pallett belongs to without developing the observation - it doesn't really say that much about the music and how it sounds. Musically this record is hardly a formalist genre exercise - and if you'd call it that then there's hardly any reason to call Sufjan Stevens "transcendent" of that - in fact there's no reason I can think of.

Weird assessment: this record strikes me as incredibly bitter and fierce. I worry that you're reading pizzicato as inherently poncey, or something.

This is not music for tipping cows. This is not music for molesting drunken strippers. This is not music for driving around small towns looking to score meth. This is not music for mugging Chinese food delivery guys. This is would-be-literature, and literature (in the American early 21st century) is inherently polite.

This part's especially funny, and kind of makes me wonder if you've read any literature during the past few decades. Certainly not any Denis Johnson, obviously. Your list actually reminds me of George Saunders in one interview he did:

"I thought: that voice of Hemingway's can't function in a Wal-Mart, on Christmas Even, when you have an STD and your uncle is drunk and trying to buy an O-Jays record to give to his new girlfriend, a speed-freak waitress. Hence the constant necessity for new voices."

I dunno -- do you, like, aspire to mug delivery guys, or something? Is that an important part of your headspace and hoped-for lifestyle?

Also, this would count as "polite" or appropriate behaviour among certain groups of people. Just sayin'. And I don't think they'd find this record very polite either.

anyhow this here:

"Western art music" is a big umbrella. But given that, it's not absurd to say that Western art music embodies a very specific cultural point-of-view. Parsing the nature of that POV shouldn't be off-limits. And I'd argue that it's often overwhelmingly white, educated and middle-to-upper class.

is true, but I want to ask outright: are the terms "white," "educated," and "middle-to-upper class" terms which, in the post's author's mind, are inherently negative? That does seem to be the implication.

P.S.: If you judge by proportions, Western common-practice music would actually be underwhelmingly white and disproportionately east-Asian. (I say that pretending not to know that east-Asian counts, on the dumber end of these race-constructs, as somehow whiter than white.)

This should be the new name of the whole ilx board ffs, and wtf is it about, anyhow? 'cause it doesn't as often seem a critique of "whiteness" as it does an attempt to distance the (often white) writer from that quality: a futile and stupid battle! no matter how much a white dude rails against "suburbia" and other not-keeping-it-real-enough strawmen/caricatures, he's still the same privileged dude that he wants to call out: and this is like race-relations 101 stuff, ain't it?

(nabisco I don't have yr email or I'd do this personally but good to meet you the other day!)

I always want to talk more here about how the "whiteness" knee-jerking works -- because I think it's about a whole bunch of simple psychological stuff that actually has zero to do with race -- but every time I try I start using phrases like "you people" and then I feel really weird.

I guess you can see indie-rock in the singing, but the music on He Poos Clouds is 100% in the tradition of Western art music--Bach, Beethoven, all that crap. Which is another big part of its appeal. And calling one of the dominant high art forms of an entire continent for several centuries "the traditions of a very specific ethnic culture" is absurd on the face of it. I would hope you wouldn't say the same thing about Chinese opera.

I mean we can respect "low" culture in the same way we respect "high" culture while continuing to recognize that they're different, right?

Surely some Xiu Xiu song?

Man I can't wait til this damn record comes in the mail. Sounds like just my kind of thing. So just wait a couple days and then I'll argue with you all about it.

Also, you might think he's quoting Mozart, but he's actually quoting The Strokes ;)

First up, I'm not faulting Owen or his music for being white. Or for being polite. Not at all. I'm white, college-educated and sometimes even polite -- and I'm cool with all that.

What I was doing in the first place was attempting to pigeonhole this record into a genre: indie. Not "Western art music". But indie [post] rock.

Furthermore, I was (mockingly, I admit, but just for effect) characterizing the qualities of indie music: white, educated, pop-rock based, polite, literate, intellectual.

And I stand behind all that. This is an indie record. It's a genre record in that sense. No less so than a garage punk record or a gangsta rap record.

Finally, I was suggesting that this record doesn't transcend its genre -- that it merely aquits itself well within its confines. It will be appealing to indie devotees, but won't travel far beyond such cirles. Of course, those are much more speculative and subjective assessments. But I still think they're valid. I don't think this record will be the "hit" that Illinois was, no matter how its promoted. The songs just aren't there. The approach is less interesting, less universally appealing and less successful on its own terms. But maybe I'm wrong. Taste is subjective, and I don't wanna get bogged down there.

Understand what you're saying about "anthropoligizing" art, Eppy, but I think it's disingenous to talk about genres of music without admitting the larger cultural context in which they occur. And I think it's kinda suspect to pretend that all art arrives to us sui generis as the pure expression of an unique soul. Especially since so many folks are willing only to treat certain offerings as legitimate "art music"...

I'm surprised more people don't accuse him of hawking rudimentary classical vibes to an indie audience that wouldn't have the context to "know better."

Ahem:

http://www.tgrec.com/images/bands/full/20-4.jpg

But what is it that so clearly places it into that genre? Putting aside any arguments about the usage of "indie," genres are ideally defined by musical commonalities, right? So what's so blatantly indie-ish about the record? From the little I've heard it doesn't seem to have all of the obvious indie signifiers.

Well fabulous muscles has deformed penis.

That's the one! My friend Apple SaintJon performed that a cappella at an open mic once. Totally upstaged me, the bastard.

If it's not completely obvious, my problem with that approach is that it tries to draw conclusions based precisely on the qualities that aren't at issue. It categorizes music based on givens, basically, rather than trying to sort out the things that aren't givens, and the places where the artist actually seems to be putting in work and energy. (Being "white" or "polite" don't seem like things that are particularly important in terms of this album; but the intent to be a bit fierce, and the intent to talk people out of suicide (!) do.)

Putting aside the on-an-independent-label thing (which is kinda ridiculous, but bear with me), indie isn't wholly defined by sound choices.

This shouldn't surprise us. Gangsta rap, after all, has very little do with the sound of the music. Gangsta is a genre entirely defined by the subjects addressed in the lyrics and the rappers attitudes toward those subjects. Garage rock, works in the sense you describe. It's all about the purely musical commonalities: buzzsaw guitars, hormonal yelling, high energy attack, cruddy recording, reference to 60s rock/pop styles, snotty attitude.

Indie is slightly more complex than other genres, and one of its hallmarks is the sense that it isn't really a genre at all. In this sense, it's very much "literature" (as a literary genre).

"Literature" pretends superiority to other genres. It isn't defined by superfical tropes (like monsters, or spies, or heaving bosoms, or mysterious murders, or futuristic speculation). It's the point at which drawing room realism meets formal experimentation meets language as art.

But the vast majority of "literary fiction" really does adhere to a few basic tropes. Realism. Restraint. Intellectualism. Observational detail. Serious themes. Etc.

Just as the vast majority of indie [post] rock music sticks to its genre conventions: restraint, the sentimentality of failure, intellectualism, concentration on youthful romance, an affection for prettiness, a tendency to subvert prettiness, self-effacement, distrust for more commercial forms, the idea of "art", whiteness, middle-classness, etc.

Nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is.

grant morrison poos final fantasy albums?

rock on, internet

If it's your sense that the record somehow doesn't "transcend" indie, I guess I'd (a) question where you're drawing the "transcendent" line and why it's so important, plus (b) suggest that you're totally underestimating geeky teenagers.

And I don't see [i]any[/i] valid similarity between Final Fantasy and Slick Rick. That's just sophistry. There's a much clearer link between Final Fantasy and artists like the Smiths, Sebadoh, Xiu Xiu and Sufjan Stevens than with ANY rap/hip-hop artist that I'm familiar with.

Thus, again, indie. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

this isn't true, I think

Nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is.

I think where I part ways with you is that, earlier in the thread, you did indeed seem (and still seem) to imply that there is something quite wrong with all that - you don't now want to say that, I guess, or maybe I misread the tone of your earlier entries on the subject, though it seemed plain enough upthread. "It is what it is" = pretty much true of, oh, say, all genres ever, no?

xpost - did you actually think much about the Slick Rick comparison? it's not sophistry, it's a good and useful point of comparison. Certainly there's hardly any comparison to the Smiths at all: Morrissey's narrator doesn't even remotely resemble Pallet's (ditto Sebadoh; I don't know Sufjan or Xiu Xiu well enough to judge). Or is comparing indie to rap just sorta No Fucking Way in your book? It really is all literature, you know.

Again, all I was doing in the first place was suggesting that the record didn't seem to transcend it's genre. Nothing more than that.

But I've gotta say that yr. comment, again, reinforces exactly what I'm talking about. I don't think I am underestimating "geeky teenagers". I think I'm pointing out that white (or white-culture comfortable), educated, middle-class, liberal, indie-affiliated geeky teenagers are a very small audience segment compared to "geeky teenagers" as a whole. A segment that we both probably belong to, but still...

I should rework Pi.

Yes, that's exactly my point. And I think you're underestimating "geeky teenagers as a whole" by thinking they wouldn't like this record, because I can kind of imagine a whole range of teenage band-geeks enjoying this record well apart from ever having heard the word "indie." Possibly enjoying it more for not having heard the word "indie."

xpost OK never mind then.

No, that's good! Don't apologise. I like the Irvine Welshe one but DO NOT get the Borroughs one. Weird since that is the pairing I know most about both of if you get me...

Time-wastinng quiz: Who are the favorite authors of indie and alt-rockers?

By the way, another thing that bugs me about FFF's line on this thread is that he's trying to define ideas like "polite" in some static all-genre way -- like indie is, by genre-definition, polite, and some other genre isn't. Which is totally bizarre, because half of how we judge qualities like that is against the norms of the genre. A "wild" indie band is a "subtle" metal band.

I suppose I'd see his argument if he were saying that the relevant stuff about Final Fantasy -- say, the bitterness of this album -- were only visible from the perspective of "indie," and within that context. There might be an argument to be made for that. But it's never crossed my mind -- I feel like that content can be gotten out of this record without needing to know anything about what an indie record is usually like.

You're learning, good sir!

The next contemporary electronic artist that namechecks MBV gets punched

Hands up, how many people would buy this?

Comparing my counterpoint unfavourably to that of Bach and Beethoven is really something nobody can seriously do, don't you think? At least, not until I'm dead.

Eppy, I think you're the only person who's listened to the album. I hate comparative listening but good call on the poor man's Stephen Sondheim.

"My problem with FFF's way of reading is that it focuses -- in an opportunistic, inconsistent way -- on the boring, obvious things that make Pallett and his music like other people: it hones in on broad, self-defined things like writing lyrics in a "literary" way, and then tries to draw conclusions from there... It categorizes music based on givens, basically, rather than trying to sort out the things that aren't givens, and the places where the artist actually seems to be putting in work and energy."

I understand yr. point. But I think yr. missing mine. I do not think this is a bad record. I don't think that it fails at all, either on its own terms or in a broader sense. I'm not disparaging it, except in passing (by which I mean that whatever disparagement may seem to be there is at best tangential to what I'm trying to get at).

What I've been objecting to here is the characterization of this record as the "album of the year." Period. That't the title of the thread, and what occasioned my response.

I see this record as narrowly reflecting a specific point of view and sensibility. I see it as speaking to a particular audience in terms that would only be meaningful to that audience. Not to put too fine a point on it, I see "He Poos Clouds" as speaking for and to a self-consciously marginalized group of young, arty middle-class white intellectuals – i.e., indie kids.

Now, please don't respond to that characterization in a knee-jerk fashion. I'm not intending to disparage the record by characterizing it thusly. Hell, I'm a self-consciously marginalized white intellectual myself. I like indie rock.

I'm merely pointing out that this is not a record that will cross (or "transcend") cultural boundaries. It's not a record for everyone -- for the world. It's a record that exists wholly within a particular culture. And therefore, it's kinda suspect to label it "record of the year" without admitting that cultural limitation.

Here's why. Indie rock is, again, a white thing. A middle-class thing. A college-educated thing. I'm not making this up. Go to a Final Fantasy show in a heavily black or hispanic area, and tell me who you see. Perhaps I'm being presumptive, but I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that wherever he goes, Owen plays to white, educated, middle-class kids.

I'm sorry, but pop music is a cultural expression as much as an individual one. There's a reason why black culture and black people dominate hip-hop. And hispanics dominate reggaeton. And white folks dominate rock. In playing music within a given genre, an artist is usually demonstrating fealty (even if unconsciously) to the value systems and tastes of a particular group.

I'm saying here that "He Poos Clouds" will, categorically, not speak to black people as a mass audience. Not speak to middle-aged midwesterners. Not speak to hispanics. Not speak to lower-income blue collar folks. The only audience that Final Fantasy will resonate with is a culturally distinct group defined by age, race, education, "class" (not solely income-based), politics, and expressed indie culture affiliation.

***

And there's been some objection to my word "polite" in describing music and literature. I apologize for that. I assumed that my meaning would be clear, but of course, polite means different things to different people.

When it comes to art, I define "polite" as that which would be accepted as sufficiently refined for consideration by a middlebrow, pseudo-academic critical establishment. In literature, this includes the entire historical canon, with all apocrypha. It includes Denis Johnson and Chuck Pahlaniuk, but probably excludes horror comics written by Rob Zombie. Henry Miller is impolite, but acceptable as polite by virtue of "importance" and "literary merit." Rimbaud used to be impolite, but now has become a signifier of refined politeness. Jane Austen is polite, "Chick Lit" may be polite, but isn't worth bothering with for other reasons, and Huster magazine is impolite in the extreme.

Same kind of boundaries, roughly, apply to music. Classical, Baroque and Romantic musics are the height of politeness. Modern and contemporary composers aren't quite as polite, but they're still unassailable. Pop music is in a tricky position. Some is acceptable to refined, polite ears, some is not. Pretty much all indie rock, operating as it does out of a white-middle-class-college-educated-arty-liberal sensibility, defines itself as by and for polite tastes. Most heavy metal and hip-hop, on the other hand, doesn't identify itself in terms of polite taste. A lot of it in fact, takes pains to disparage polite tastes, reveling in ugliness, grotesquerie, anti-intellectualism, greed, bloodlust, pornography, and so on.

A fondness for politeness is characteristic of particular cultural groups, as is a hostility towards it. Politeness is a mark of social comfort. It demonstrates a sense of belonging. Deliberate offensiveness, on the other hand, demonstrates cultural discomfort. It's how people show their disrespect for value systems they oppose.

So painfully otm - not just about someone like FFF. This strikes me as being the biggest problem with the lower-quality reviews from places like Stylus, Pitchfork, etc.

Anyways, I *know* people who are fairly ignorant of current indie culture who dig this record.

About "politeness": the so-called "middlebrow, pseudo-academic critical establishment" is usually infatuated with superficially "rude" confrontational art. For an example of this, see your own coments above about scoring meth and so on. And the stuff you're calling polite actually isn't just appreciated by some kind of highbrow audience - people around the world from all kinds of backgrounds find abstract beauty in, say, Western classical music.

"Anyways, I *know* people who are fairly ignorant of current indie culture who dig this record."

Of course you do. So do I. But those few exceptions only throw the rule into harsher relief. This record may appeal to people who don't know much about indie, but I'd be willing to bet that the VAST majority of such folks are white (or white-culture assimilated), middle-class and well educated.

And of course "the so-called 'middlebrow, pseudo-academic critical establishment' is usually infatuated with superficially 'rude' confrontational art. That's been true for hundred of years. But they're only infatuated with it once they've decided that it's worthy of consideration. My point isn't that Karen Finlay is ignored by the art-crit establishment, but that Master P is. Annie Sprinkle may get some props, but Jenna Jameson not so much so.

Finally, I never argued that all "polite" appeals only to a highbrow audience. But it's certainly true that a lot of polite art has almost no appeal outside such circles.

No, it doesn't. Some musics operate entirely within narrow genres, speaking (for the most part) only to specific audiences. Like "He Poos Clouds"... Other musics transcend their ostensible genres, engaging with the world as a whole.

This is because Culture and cultures aren't static. They're all in constant flux, all mutating and mutating further within their sub-mutations. Some rising in popularity, some falling. Some nearly universal, others minutely niche-specific. Hip-hop is enjoying a moment of ascendancy, for a whole host of reasons that are too complex and too arguable to profitably go into here.

But I suggest, since you've mentioned it, that the nearly universal popularity of hip-hop squashes any claim that this very narrowly-targeted work might be the "album of the year" in a non-genre-specific sense.

"Duder" appreciated. Makes me feel less alone in a cold and often cruel cubicle.

But I don't think that's quite it. 99% of the threads around here consist of someone or another putting forth a subjective viewpoint as objective truth. I suspect that the universal stink-eye I'm getting has more to do with what I'm saying and/or how I'm saying it.

Haven't got it sussed yet...

Hell, it won't even speak to white people as a mass audience. But it will find fans in one particular corner of the white mass audience: young, intellectual, college-educated, middle-class indie rockers.

Period.

I understand that many people are uncomfortable with these kinds of analyses, but that doesn't make me not-correct.

only because you're so enamored of your thesis though man!

Records that cross over may retain their genre signifiers, but they cease to be limited by them.

I like the Final Fantasy record. I don't love it. I understand that its appeal is limited, and I understand who it's likely to appeal to.

Big whoop.

It's not bad, but I can't imagine getting all worked up about it. I can see as how this might be some kinda low level bombshell, but only to card carrying devotees of literate-ish, polite-ish, white-ish indie/emo "rock" music. It's a fine, pat-on-the-back effort within that very specific genre.

But it it doesn't really transcend the genre (like, say, Illinois).

Now, you can say that all those "ish"es aren't intended to carry any condescension, but they do. And you can claim that Illinois "transcended the genre," but I think all you mean is "sold a lot of records and got mainstream media coverage." Illinois in and of itself didn't "transcend" anything: it, too, was a genre exercise. Owing to a number of factors that don't seem to interest you (timing and groundwork chief among them), it sorta blew up in indie #s anyhow. That's about it.

"...and if 'different cultures value different things' as guardedly as you insist, why is hiphop the most popular music in the world? why did rock music similarly cross the globe? disco, too, and electronica?"

First up, I don't know. That's a huge question, and I can't imagine answering it meaningfully here. I don't even have the intellectual tools to do so if I wanted to...

With that caveat in mind, I'll say this: [boomy doom voice] "Ven Diagrams." Cultures within cultures. Overlapping, cross-blending, and contributing to one another. Some of the circles are extremely teeny (the crappy 80s cover band scene in your home town, for instance -- if there is one). "American Pop Culture," on the other hand, is one of the bigger cirles. And "Intenational Pop Culture" is bigger still.

As individuals we belong not to a single culture, but to many, many different cultures. (In fact, since these cultures are intellectual abstractions that don't really exist outside our conception of them, it could be said that we all belong to a theoretically infinite number of sub-cultures -- it's just a matter of defining them.)

We belong to cultures of our families, our friends, our schools, our towns, our states, our neighborhoods, our races, our ages, our genders, our income brackets, our educational levels, and the myriad networks of our personal choices and tastes.

What is popular in the culture-group "American Popular Culture," therefore, is an amalgamate of countless subcultures. And since memes are dictated both down from large container-cultures to small niche-cultures and also vice-versa, it's nigh impossible to say why certain things become popular on the mass-culture level over time.

I mean, truly NEW musical pop forms seem to thrive in the mass culture for a few decades after their development, after which they slowly ossify and return into various niches -- not necessarily the niches they came out of, but those and others. Jazz started out as a small-culture phenomenon, became the lingua-franca of the musical world, and then slowly receded into art/academic niches. (That's absurdly oversimplified, of course, but it gets the outline across.)

Rock worked in a similar way, and rap seems to be doing the same. Some genres never quite come to dominate the world, and others don't recede as dramatically as jazz did. Disco, for instance, is grounded in pure functionality (get out there and DANCE!), and thus may be better protected from obsolescence...

I suspect that new pop forms become dominant because they are so vibrant and so innocent. It is possible to "say things" in rap could not be said in rock or jazz, and things that have been said countless times in rock and jazz can seem fresh when "translated" into hip-hop. Hip-hop is still discovering the world, musically, and reconfiguring the world in the process, therefore it's a vibrant, evolving and dynamic pop form. Since rock is further along in the process of self-discovery and evolution, it seems less fresh and less innocent. It knows itself, and therefore doesn't work as well as pop.

As you can see, that line of reasoning opens up a million other worm-cans.

But some cultural products remain specific to the cultural groups that birthed them. While other cultural products "transcend" affiliation with any particular group, becoming the property of bigger groups, and even, possibly, the world. That's the way it's always been, and the way it will always be.

***

But, yeah, I was certainly being condescending at the outset. And I regret that. People got caught up in my tone, and it made a hash of the dialogue. Underneath the sneer, though, I don't think I was saying anything particularly objectionable or surprising.

I disagree that the reason that Illinois "broke" can be described purely in terms of marketing and moment. I think it's a more universally appealing record than He Poos Clouds. But at that point, things become subjective and quicksand-y.

So here I rest my weary head...

No. I don't think Illinois appeals strongly to black and hispanic audiences. I don't think it even appeals strongly to white audiences that aren't educated, literate, middle-class and at least a little indie-ish.

Therefore, I withdraw the claim that Illinois "transcended" its genre. That was stupid of me.

Maybe Illinois did "transcend" a little bit, but no more so than, say, Belle and Sebastian, or the Smiths. What Illinois did was to succeed very well within its genre/culture, in the process lapping out a bit into nearby/similar pools. NPR listeners. Young liberal Christians. Red staters. Adventurous middle-aged white pop fans. Anyone else who pays a great deal of atention to the mainstream critical consensus.

Michael Jackson's Triller is a much better example of genre transcendence. It's not an R&B or a soul record (though that's the niche that "Off The Wall" had partially transcended). It's not an urban pop record. Hell, it's not even an American pop record. It bears the stamp of the cultural forces that shaped it, but it delivered itself (very nearly) to the entire planet.

One is that he says the record's limited cultural audience (which he claims isn't a criticism) means no one should refer to it as "album of the year." The missing step is that he offers no argument for why "broad cultural appeal" is some kind of prerequisite for praising an album. Why is it essential for a record to transcend its probable fanbase? (Especially if you're in that probable fanbase?)

Also it's just dumb, because the "album of the year" in the thread title pretty clearly just means it's the thread-starter's favorite.

The second problem is kind of a classic fallacy, and it's this:

When it comes to art, I define "polite" as that which would be accepted as sufficiently refined for consideration by a middlebrow, pseudo-academic critical establishment.

That's a bit of a circular definition; it can make anything polite. It quickly becomes useless when talking about the "critical establishment's" obsession with things being impolite. (Which obsession you're totally enacting RIGHT NOW.) It becomes useless because you yourself, FFF, are admitting that you're part of that "middlebrow" culture-bracket, and yet you're pushing for everything to be "impolite," to be outside the bracket, not in. Which is impossible anyway, because as soon as you like something, then it becomes -- by your definition -- "polite."

You're just setting up a self-fulfilling circle of who-likes-what, and then pretending that those categories have anything to do with the art itself. These are different things: what the art does and who gets what out of it. The latter does not dictate the former. But by your definition, the Ying Yang Twins are more "polite" than Final Fantasy, just based on the fact that one official meeting spot of the critical establishment (the EMP conference) has spent more words on them, and another (Pazz and Jop) has given them higher numbers.

Anyway, 100% of black people in my bedroom right now enjoy Final Fantasy, and that's the primary statistic that's important to me.

But invoking Vennn (note extra en for added truthiness) Diagrams is a simple way to conjure up a visual picture of the relationships I'm talking about. "Cross-cutting cleavages" describes the same type of cultural relationship in poli-sci terms, but the phrase doesn't really make the point any more clearly, and would require a lot more explanation.

Dude, if you really wanna have a blast, comb my last post for typos. Oh, the fun to be had! Have to admit that I wanna hear "Michael Jackson's Triller" myself...

But get this, beloved: I'm really not cutting He Poos Clouds down by pointing out that it's a niche record. My favorite record of the moment is by some midwestern folk-sludge outfit called Racoo-oo-oon. It's so insular and deliberately inaccessible as to be nearly comical.

Sure, everybody is entitled to their own taste. Everybody gets to have a private "album of the year." And no one's ever at all wrong about what they pick. But that all takes place PURELY in the sphere of subjective taste.

So long as we're talking about anything other than purely subjective, entirely personal taste, then I think it's appropriate to at least talk/speculate about what qualifies something for "record of the year" status within a given cultural sub-group.

Honestly, I'm not saying that He Poos Clouds cannot qualify for such an honor due to the fact that it's "too niche-y." Perhaps inarticulately, I'm asking whether or not a tendency to celebrate records like this (and it will make a LOT of published year-end top 10s, mark my words) reveals more about the cultural biases of mainstream pop critics as a cultural group than about the "objective" quality of the record itself.

***

As for the "polite" thing, you got me. I think I know what I mean when I talk about polite music. I think a lot of other folks do, too. But it's kinda hard to pin down. It has something to do with bourgeois taste, something to do with the relationship between cultural products and the academic study of them, and something to do with simple, literal social politeness (however you define it).

Ying Yang Twins are intentionally impolite, whether or not they fascinate critics.
Mozart is polite, though his music may have seemed impolite in its era.
Lou Reed's Magic and Loss is polite. Live performances by GG Allin were not.
Tasteful erotica is polite. Non-"artistic" hardcore pornography is not.
Hanging paintings in a gallery is polite. Tagging mall windows is not.
Novels in general are polite. Recordings of prank phone calls are not.
Etc...

Note that I'm not calling impoliteness is a virtue. I'm not saying anything at all like that. But I am saying that politeness in music is a cultural signifier, and (perhaps) a limiting one.

Again, I don't know why this would be controversial...

It's not that you're being inarticulate. It's that you're trying to say this about a particular record without saying anything at all specific about that particular record. If you pulled up a bunch of critics' top-ten lists and noted that this type of record was overrepresented, that'd make sense; as a way of discussing this single record, though, it's pointless, and actively avoids the topic of whether this album is any good or not. You're the one avoiding talk about the "objective quality" of this album. Because when asked specifically which objective qualities about it are troubling you, your answer is that "it's the type of record middlebrow critics like." Do you see the circularity there? You're saying "middlebrow critics always like X type of record," and when people ask you what X is, your answer is "the type of thing middlebrow critics like."

The other reason I'm aggreived isn't that you're being "controversial," it's that you're being very non-controversial. It seems like you think you're asking for things to break out of your "middlebrow" culture-bracket by asking for things to be "impolite." But that request -- that desire for impoliteness -- is precisely what makes you so much a part of that culture bracket. Jonesing after "impoliteness" and putting it in class terms and using black people (and/or meth addicts) as your free-ticket examples for your own desire to ... feeling less boring -- by your definition, that's as "polite" as it gets. Today's anti-bourgeoise sentiment is pretty much strictly confined to the bourgeoisie itself. That's the other circular thing here: your worrying over "whiteness" is itself a kind of "whiteness."

Plus, like always, you're treading these lines that always strike me as subtly condescending toward black people, who are apparently -- in your system -- the representatives (or go-to mascots) of everything that isn't "polite" (rude?), isn't "literate" (illiterate?), isn't "educated" (ignant?), isn't "middle-class" (po folk?), etc. And for various personal reasons I have very little interest in or sympathy for this whole thing where middle-class white people stress out and wilt under their own middle-class whiteness (boo-hoo) and pour all that anxiety off into music discussion boards.

So yeah, it's not like I'm pissed off by what you're saying, I just think some of your thinking is a little flimsy here! Kiss kiss, though, totally.

Some black dudes and Hispanics have told me they like the record, though. I can write you a list if you like.

I've been soo frustrated by poorly thought-out pseudo-sociocultural "music" writing lately. Reading this thread has made me grind my teeth, so your patient and eloquent posts have been appreciated.

And yes, the album is great, but I need to listen to it a few more times .

First up, I do like the record. I think it's remarkably accomplished, funny, smart and quite lovely. The lyrics are brilliant, and I especially LOVE the occasional use of retarded sci-fi/fantasy gibbberish and other self-mocking nonsense to undercut the sense that we're listening to self-consciously "poetic" poetry. Nice trick. And I've always been a sucker for verse that alludes, cryptically to meanings that lie hidden beneath the surface.

On the other hand, I find the relentless clever-clever-ness of the writing just a wee bit exhausting. But that's just me, and you can hardly fault so skilled a wit for wanting to flex his tool a bit...

The music, however, doesn't really "do it" for me. And that's why I've been avoiding any direct critique of the record. The failure of these choonz to jostle my tympanic membranes in a fashion that arouses me isn't in any real way a failure on the part of these choonz. It's not you, Final Fantasy, it's me. I remain unhooked.

See, that's TOTALLY subjective. I like the way this record sounds. In fact, I like the sounds a lot. I like its approach to story and character. I like the multileveled narratives. I like the sounds used. But I don't, in the end, love the songs themselves. They don't move me. They slip from my memory like fresh eels from warm vaginas. And something about the whole project reads to my mind as "contrived" in a way that grates a bit.

Again, each to his own. These aren't "real" criticisms, they're subjective feelings, without intellectual weight, even if I tried to justify them somehow (see ST Erlewine's absurd attempt to intellectually validate his distaste for Sufjan Stevens' Illinois elsewhere on this board). It's fine to articulate your tastes, but foolish to pretend that they can be defended as objectively valid in some sense.

ALL OF THAT is why I'm very intentionally NOT talking about the record itself. I respect it. I admire it greatly. I like it. But I don't love it. Understanding that my reservations are subjective, I've chosen to talk about the way the record is received and described. I can see as how it reads as "brilliant" within the culture that generated it, but I can also see as how its appeal may not extend far outside that audience.

And I perceive a tendency in pop-crit circles to heap a lopsided helping of praise on these kinds of records. Of course, that isn't this record's fault. I know that. But it's still a bit troubling, and that's what I was getting at.

***

Next, I dunno why you're still harping on me about my supposed impoliteness jones, Nab. I don't think that impolite music has any advantage over polite music. At all.

I have no interests in the music that meth addicts and or Chinese-food-delivery-guy-muggers listen to. I don't think that "other cultures" are any more valid than mine. The only point I'm making is that my culure isn't intrinsically any more valid than any other, either. And the more music I listen to (I'm nearly 40) the more I find that the music of my culture is no more and no less appealing than that of a THOUSAND others.

In attempting to characterize politeness by characterizing impoliteness, that's ALL I was doing. This record is polite. That's not a fault or a failure. But it is an operating principle. And this record is limited by its operating principles, just as a grotesquely impolite record would be limited by that. Neither better or worse, but both just what they are.

Finally, I make no apology for seeing this as a "white record." I've been going to rock and pop shows for going on 25 years. I know how the culture works, and I know how clearly the lines are drawn. You and I both know how outrageously rare black or (to a lesser extent) hispanic artists are in these circles (indie, punk, art rock, alt rock, freak folk, etc.). Bands like Bad Brains and TV On the Radio are very, very few and far between.

Why is that? Good question. And while it's a good question, it STILL ISN'T A CRITICISM. Of anything. I don't think that the insularity of music scenes is a problem, or that musical cultures can be evaluated relative to one another.

I'm sure that quite a few non-white, non-educated (note that I've never even suggested that these two groups might be the same), non-middle-class (ibid) love Final Fantasy. And I'm even more sure that they are a tiny, tiny minority. That from sea to shining sea Final Fanasty plays mostly to a white, middle-class, educated audience.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with the fact that that audience is often enamored of extremely polite, extremely witty music. But insisting that that culture is the entire relevant world (which I think a lot of pop critics do, and which I thought, perhaps incorrectly, the thread title implied) is kinda suspect.

That's all.

Yeah, see, I dunno where you're getting that from the thread title. A better reading of the thread title would be more like "hey, Kevin Barking really likes this record."

P.S. -- just by the way -- I'm actually not so sure this album will be all over year-end lists; there are a whole lot of things about it that make it not a candidate for critical-favorite consensus. I haven't even seen a lot of press for it. And funnily enough, I think that's because of a lot of the qualities you were talking about -- even a sense that the album would be too "nerdy" for rock audiences.

But I want to point out, for the record, that I have done no "music writing" on this thread (and no "'music' writing," neither). I'm just babbling off the top of my head, and defending myself in a series of increasingly rambling arguments.

Everything that I've said here, all 5,000 cripplingly boring pages of it, has been an attempt to defend my only-lightly-mocking characterization of this record as, "literate-ish, polite-ish, white-ish indie/emo 'rock' music."

Yes, that sounds appallingly snide. And I apologize for that. I like the record, and should have thought about the tone of that phrase before I posted it.

But I still haven't seen a single good argument against any of it. And I think if you go back and look over what I've really said here, you'll see that it's nowhere near so inflammatory as it's been made out to be...

plus: it's troubling why? are you really gonna propose that people dig it "for the wrong reasons" or some crap like that? critic ppl dig it, they'll usually even tell you why they dig it: what exactly is troubling?

Most Final Fantasy fans, for the record, are Asian. Or young gay men. I actually chatted with an 40-something ogler who just came to the show to "scope the dudes".

And Team Clermont, the publicist that Tomlab hired, has been providing me with US press reports. Most US critics didn't like it. Or they like it, but they won't get behind it. Entertainment Weekly, for example, said "it took risks for their own sake" and didn't review it.

But really, I can't imagine too many larger US magazines wanting to push such a vainly idiosyncratic album. Even the gay magazines are hesitant. The only publications who've gotten totally behind it are the magazines who themselves are somewhat idiosyncratic: Plan B Magazine, Les Inrockuptibles, Rolling Stone Germany and every magazine in Portugal. Canadian press has been supportive, as well, but that tide reverses every 10 months.

It won't be on any major top ten lists, that's for sure. But neither will Sparks' new record. And Scott Walker's record will be on some, but not many... and those are my favourite records so far this year, so it's okay.

It's interesting to keep tabs on how all the press transpires. I feel like I'm conscious for my own surgery. Wow!

We didn't go though. When are you back? I'll keep watching your website. Did I do the xpost thing right?

I'm bothered by what I see as an orthodoxy of critical opinion in indie music. An orthodoxy that often comes across as self-satisfied and circumscribed to the point of aesthetic/intellectual cowardice. And an orthodoxy that often dominates the discourse on popular music.

Beyond that, I can't really say. I feel that I've overextended myself by talking too much here, and spend too little time thinking about what I really mean. And I feel that I've unfairly attached my criticisms to a (frankly) wonderful record that doesn't deserve any of it.

If I've got anything further to add, I'll start a new thread or something. But I'm starting to feel that this isn't the place for it.

The thing is, I think a lot of the people here would agree with you on that. It just seemed like an odd thing to rave on about on this particular thread.

Like I was saying above -- Asians somehow either don't count or mysteriously become white whenever this little argument comes up. Same with middle-class educated black people. Which is why I don't like race getting used as the shorthand for FFF's issue.

(P.S., Owen, this was already the record that won me over -- hence your positive Pitchfork review!)

Which is a goddamn pity, lemme tell ya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYd9eIZR720

When I found out yesterday that it was already on the air, I spent the rest of the day drinking and crying.

The ad will definitely stay on the air, and I'm almost 100% sure that me and Tomlab are still friendly-like. As for what I'm going to do with the money, that's still up in the air.

Anyway, now that I've listened to the record some, this whole thread makes even less sense to me. FFF had me half expecting it to sound like The Decemberists or something!

I think it's great so far. I think the arrangements on Illinois (and Funeral, for that matter) are pretty damn good, but the instrumental writing on He Poos Clouds is definitely more sophisticated. Gives me a nice warm vibratey feeling all through my guttiwuts.

Also, the record makes me think "arty" much more than "indie."

-- Owen Pallett (opallet...), August 2nd, 2006.

Send it back and hire an attorney to write a cease & desist letter! Sometimes that's all it takes...

I know I've said this before, but I really, really love your album. I don't even mind the title nor the ugly & random hot dog drawing on the CD, but I'm just wondering... If you have the will and talent to make music this gorgeous, then why on earth did you devise every possible method to detract from the beauty of your music? Were you afraid of it? Did it leave you too vulnerable? Did you think by making the title and the artwork the pinnacle of ugliness that you could help your music avoid critical gaze? Why are you so afraid of putting yourself out there, without all these obstacles?

I don't know, it all seems like a pretty cowardly move, to me.

Are you serious? What could be ballsier than not giving a shit if people get hung up about your album title? He could've called it something totally uncontroversial, but he didn't. It doesn't take away from the music at all.

:-)

After two mind-numbing hours, I have seen the word poo so many times that it's been rendered completely meaningless and harmless. I think I've been cured. I'm leaving now to go listen to this album.

I don’t think it's "ballsy" to frame a beautiful painting with shit because of whatever you don't want to be thought of being ("high art" or whatever). It’s actually sort of a cop-out. I'm framing the comment from a perspective of... why would you NOT want it to be taken seriously on its own musical merits?

He could've called it something totally uncontroversial, but he didn't.

He could have also called it something more evocative of the music and not necessarily less controversial. Oh, and y'know, with the sense of aesthetics and taste he evidences as a composer / arranger, etc.

It doesn't take away from the music at all.
Of course. Nothing extra-musical takes away from music. It just seems like he's deliberately trying to obfuscate it.

Er, wait.

Apparently Tomlab are going to give their cut of the money away, too. My cut is likely going to Doctors Without Borders. Simple and clean.

what is so offensive about the word poo?! fucking hell, it's music at the end of the day. how about discussing that??

Exactly. Smothering it with shit makes it hard for the actual music to be the subject matter, though. And that's my problem. I'm not *offended*, my question was genuine. A friend of mine looked at the actual CD (my copy) and thought it was fucking Green Day.

And Owen can be as dismissive as he wishes, but nothing about disliking scatological humor leads to one being a "half-assed listener." I could talk about the Galina Ustvolskaya gone pop I hear toward the end of "The Arctic Circle." And I might, later. I'm not criticizing the music, I'm praising it.

If this would be some shit record, I'd be okay with it being smothered in shit. It's more like an "aww, shucks, but this is *too pretty* to have disgusting people-repellent in it."

http://static.flickr.com/69/209467814_6097790e04_o.jpg

"Uh, right. I don't think so."

'owen pallett - a sentimental education'

or

'the owen pallett chamber ensemble - night of the hunter'

He's not giving anyone the finger, it's one of them there roadside s'briety tests.

So if you're giving everyone the finger, why on earth are you surprised when people answer "Fuck you!" back?

Smothering it with shit? I might understand more if Owen had, you know, wiped his ass on the CD packaging before you bought it (he didn't, did he?), or if he had added squealing noise on the tracks that obscured the songs or something. But it's just a title. And yeah, I think it's ballsy. It's bold. It's unflinching. I'm not saying it's an awesome title, I'm just saying I think it takes guts to put out that record with that title. It's a title that says "Suck it, haters." I have no problem with it.

And I think a bunch of the songs sound like show tunes.

Someone has the right to be offended by music, in effect, giving them the finger. I don't listen to music that's aggressive towards *me*. I don't engage with artists who have contempt for my intellect. People have the right to feel squeamish without him calling them a "half-assed listener". The title/artwork are just a barrier to the music, it gives no clue to it.

This needs an 'M' photoshopping in for maximum LARFS.

I am absolutely loving this record, and have recommended it to loads of people.

FINAL FANTASY
finalfantasyeternal.com

Sounds like: Urgent spacefaring classical

Arcade Fire violinist Owen Pallett brings his love of Final Fantasy VI - "because it's the only one with strong female leads," he says - to a project appropriately named Final Fantasy. It took flight when, on a whim, Owen plugged his violin into a looping pedal and started "farting around." The result is a stirring, hysterical form of string classical that perfectly complements any role-playing lifestyle. "Videogames are about creating an alternate universe and immersing the player within," says Pallett. "I like that and try to write about things that don't exist but deserve songs." Final Fantasy is currently on tour in Europe and working on a follow-up to this year's album, He Poos Clouds.
- Mike Spitalieri

So I've heard almost three songs now AND I AM IN AWE. This shit is right up my alley, oh yes. Piano and strings and decent vocalist and I am there. Now I have to figure out how to get to the CD shop tomorrow before I meet my friend at 1 pm. Or maybe I can drag my friend there...hmm...maybe I'll pay him $2 to be dragged to the CD shop.

This really sweeps the floor with Belle & Sebastian doesn't it?

It feels like a dream.

Call me squeamish, etc. But that's just the way it is. And maybe he should have thought about that before going as far as calling his album that. It doesn't just weed out half-assed listeners, because I am the farthest you can get from that. But it does weed out naturally squeamish people. I can't really help that, and frankly it pisses me off that he wouldn't think that's a possible result of having such a stupid fucking title.

firstly: omg! I wish I had read this thread earlier!

secondly: poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9745/blairop4.png

He Poos Clouds does not sound like Rufus Wainwright.

But it sounds a lot like Xiu Xiu to me at points. I know very little Xiu Xiu, though.

I'm just going to say as an unabashed anglophile, that this album really breaks the mold for me. It satisfies my anglophile needs. Part of me wonders if it isn't just that he chose piano and strings for the instrumentation and that if I just knew contemporary indie pop well enough then I'd be able to point to something else that does the same? Can anyone here actually point me to anything that SOUNDS like this? Because when I put this on, I just don't believe it's real. It seems too good to be true. I noticed when I bought this, too that there was another Final Fantasy CD available...was it just not as good as this one? I guess I didn't pick it up and look at it carefully, but I assumed it was another album.

Pooh jokes are fine, but I don't care about them right now. And I can't be bothered to read this whole thread. Give me a break. The last time I heard anything current that was this good before the Kate Bush album was in 2001 with Life Without Buildings. That means like fucking 4 years before that. I'm just shocked that an album with such a (haha) piss poor name is actually this good.

You really should, it's comedy gold.

So has Owen filed his hostile takeover bid yet? Are the ILM poison pill clauses still in effect?

Insufferably twee. "Look, I'm ironically cute, OK? This is non-confrontational, and you don't have to worry about it being smart or challenging... Or do you?"
What rankled me was the cleverness for cleverness' sake.
But I think I may be the only ILXor who listened to the album and thought "Eh... It's OK..."

Honestly, what will probably happen is that I'll ignore it for another six months or so (long enough to make sure it doesn't end up on my year list) and then suddenly fall in love with it.

"This Lamb Sells Condos" is still brilliant.

http://www.snowboard.org.vt.edu/Images/TheHunt/Christina%20Hicks/4%20Poop.jpg

thats is some cloudy pooing write there

But does it hold up since 19 months ago?

This album is still brilliant. And he's doing string arrangements for the Box!?!?!

About a month or two I went through a phase of listening to this album all the time.

needs more drumming

needs a different title and 74 minutes of silence added at the start of the CD.

^^^

More percussion would be good. Is it track 7 or 8 that has some? It sounds amazing. Still a very, very good record. Has Owen been around lately? Is anything new on the cards?

it's a great album

This is £6 on Amazon, think I'll give it a go.

Scoring, mostly. For other people. I don't think I'm getting much better at it, but I'm definitely getting faster.

Saw Final Fantasy opening last night for the Mountain Goats. This isn't the kind of thing I like but I was surprised to find I like it. Mostly: the booming plucks, the way OP opens his eyes wide when he sings. He appears to be a David Lynch character of some kind. He was also terrific backing up JD on"Going to Bristol."

I detest people who say "poo".

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Saturday, 15 April 2006 00:12 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

:'(

yeah this dude was fantastic

bordering on transformative, tbh

I had no idea he had so much madrigal influence in his music, it's fucking astonishing shit (also mad respect to singing and playing the violin at the same time)

yeah the new one is WONDERFUL

xp - I was a little surprised to see him on the credits of New Moon the other day.

Team Alice!

3. Nobody who listens to it will ever again entertain thoughts of suicide.

I have to say, I'm sold.

Wait, Final Fantasy dude played on New Moon? 'Cause Kaki King played on the first Twilight movie -- what is this insidious Twilight/tMG-opener connection?

I saw FF at the Portland show a few weeks ago, and it was just really compelling from start to finish, not a weak moment. I downloaded the two albums he has up on eMusic, but as it stands now I've ignored the majority of both and just played the shit out of "This the Dream of Win and Regine."

Also, I remember taking a mildly anti-poo stance when this thread first started but the intervening years have mellowed this.

Wait, Final Fantasy dude played on New Moon? 'Cause Kaki King played on the first Twilight movie -- what is this insidious Twilight/tMG-opener connection?

it's the "drive JD nuts because all his peers get soundtrack work while JD tours himself into advanced states of mental & physical illness" syndrome & it's all the rage

/whine

damn, tried to close tag but am still whining

biggest mistake the folks who compile those "best music writing" books ever made was not putting this thread in the 2006 edition.

i take it the new album has leaked?

No, we all went to the Mountain Goats show and were blown away by FF

well there are still two more Twilight movies left, i bet Summit would welcome some fresh ideas re: their upcoming "chew a vampire baby out of your uterus" suite.

xpost

after the show i went out and bought he poos clouds and :-o

Sure you're not thinking of The Box?

And thanks for the props, this has been the best tour ever, even if J0hn still takes issue with my album titling (although you won't hear me contesting "Yam, King Of Crops" any time soon.)

Is this claim about suicide accurate: y/n

painful memories...

not about suicide (which this record does not prevent the thinking about of), just the weirdness of old threads

I stand by my yams

by Yammy Wynette

"lewis takes action" tweaks my john cale sweet spot

Ah, it must have been a trailer for The Box I saw before New Moon.

Let all urban myths about Owen being on New Moon cease here pls.

hey owen why is heartland taking so long to come out

The thing I like the most about this album is how it sounds like a deranged lost Sondheim score.

lololol okay I just searched the thread to see if anyone else had made that reference and um wow at some of the discourse upthread, so to pull in another reference my uncle commented on a Facebook status update where I mentioned FF and said a) he'd downloaded all of the albums and liked them a lot, so there's another black person in the "thumbs-up" column, and b) the music reminded him a lot of Don Sebesky.

holy shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFXJKp-NgR8&feature=related

Enjoyed that.

Also, this thread is absurd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB05Lt3VbNg