This is SHOUTING-for-MODERATOR thread pt. III!! [derailed: go to thread IV]

what might actually work, graham, is if you apologised for your hateful behaviour, rather throwing out passive-aggressive sulks related to your strings-attached help (well, i don't know whether it would work for alan — that's for him to decide — but it might go down a tiny bit better with everyone else reading)

anyway, i guess you've got what you wanted: we now get to ask you day and night, once again, to consider and enact any and all changes we think for to request, in return for exactly the same thankless take-the-tech-support-for-granted that pissed you off so much last time

one of the reasons ppl don't go out of their way to be nice to you is possibly that when they do they know from a history of yr behaviour that it will simply be thrown viciously in their face in a few days/weeks/months time (what youi just did to alan being a picture-perfect example): after the dust is settled, they know you will busily start portraying whoever made an effort to be nice/be helpful as the villain... so why even bother starting?

this bad loop (kindness => bad feedback => end of kindness => worse feedback) can be broken, but not by anyone other than yourself...

(cross-post again)

in answer to your question: we would like you to try to make an effort to learn to treat other people on the planet as if they mattered in themselves, not just as part of your plans for them

on our world — that of the regular users of the board — giving alan the password worked fine

Well maybe people should started treating me as if I mattered.

I hadn't noticed any slump in technical performance recently, therefore I regret to say that I will not be able to welcome the prodigal son back with open arms to deliver us from the chaos that's sprung up in his absence. Sorry.

(X-post) Graham, you have a way of squandering sympathy and goodwill that is second to none.

Why should your goodwill matter so much when my goodwill is thrown back in my face day in day out? Or more often if they don't want it they take it anyway.

Yowsers.

It's the way that you give anything so backhandedly Graham.

Tom Ewing's friends, you made me that way.

Nick? Nicholas Dastoor? Hello you.

maybe tom ewings friends dont matter. maybe you should forget about them.

FWIW I had noticed New Answers being quite slow lately and it seems to be quicker right now, but then these things come and go so I don't really know about any firm conclusions.

I was under the impression that Graham had passed on control to Alan for the good of the board and his sanity, without retaining 'executive control'. I'm not saying that is the case, just that that's the impression I had got, and maybe others had too.

[cross post]

Graham? Hello. I am assuming this is some dig at me not replying to an email. Since the 'fuck you' thing ages ago I'm pretty sure I haven't had one from you anyway.

let's not make this about graham v the world, or vice versa. This is about me no longer wanting access to the server -- it's given me bad times I don't want.

how exactly did people on here make you this way Graham? I'm interested.

Is the ILX server like the ring?

many ilx ppl have tried, graham, in many different ways, but since the reward for this is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS being kicked in the teeth by you shortly afterwards, ppl are decreasingly likely to try

for example the way you are behaving today is as a matter of fact contemptibly (but also unfortunately typically) ungrateful response TO ME for all the time i have given you over the last year and more: and even if i choose to take it on the chin — it's a nice day, i'm (sort of still) in a good mood, blah blah — plenty of people reading will immediately be marking you down for it

ie the question "why should your goodwill matter" translates in the real world as "i don't mind if no one is ever nice to me again": but you *do* care!!

you make a habit of punishing people IN ADVANCE for the (sometimes imagined) sins of those who went before: and that's wqhat you;re doing here, again

i think a new MODERATOR SHOUT thread wd be a good idea anyway: this one was already getting unwieldy

I am also sorry that the many months (ie up to about January) that everyone on-board spent being (largely) unfailingly nice and supportive and full of gratitude to Graham wasn't ENOUGH for him. What a betrayal.

Yes, it's because we don't appreciate you. You are wasted on us. Nothing to do with the endless fucking tantrums and childish hissy fits and generally making the people who have done the most for you feel like shit. Nothing at all.

(x-post with Mark, but wtf)

(I am now being self-righteous and hectoring about a subject that is really nothing to do with me and none of my business, so I'm going to ignore this thread for the rest of the day)

FWIW, all the stuff graham has sent to me about the code has been substantively helpful and correct and he has quite rightly pulled me up on a number of points.

Sorry to jump on the band wagon & get involved in this thread, but Graham that is no way to speak to people & I personally find it quite offensive. If you had a problem with what Alan had done then speak to him direct, don't play it out on here for all to see. It is a really spiteful thing to do. I am sure you have your reasons & feeling undervalued may be one of them, but as I said, this is not the way to go about making people grateful for your efforts.

No Nick, just honoured to have you post "yowsers" in response to something I've said.

"Thanks y'all.

I should probably stress that Alan is just the person I sent the code and instructions, he's not necessarily going to be my successor, and more likely several people will be working on it in future. -- Graham 15th April 2003"

Mark I am in respectful awe of yr patience but right now that S is standing for Sisyphus.

I don't give a shit about the message board.

Or being appreciated for the work I've done. It's just convenient way for people to avoid noticing I am a person. With feelings. That have been hurt bu a lot of you, none of whom seem to care as much as I seem to be expected to care for hurting Alan's feelings.

Sisyphus = greek for sissy fuss < / emotional stevedore >

I have to go to M&S for my lunch. I started Mod thread IV, for future use, so this one can go where it will.

*postpones lunch for one post*

Graham in all the time I have actually been the obvious living counterexample to your claim, you have never made a sustained attempt — apart from occasional one-sentence thanks — to actually notice me "as a person", or "care about my feelings" or whatever. You keep saying the trade is unfair: but I don't actually think there's any evidence (yet) that you would trade fairly if someone started it off. I'd like to think we're friends — but you don't actually treat me like one.

thank you v much for all the effort you've put in alan.

Yes, definite thanks to Alan for the work he has done.

Well sorry, Mark, I don't know how. What would you like me to do?

Thank you, Alan!

Graham, how about treating people how you yourself want to be treated? It takes two people to make a friendship, you can't just demand and expect it.

That's what i've been trying Vicky. People find me being nice totally creepy. People find noticing I exist too much to ask. It doesn't work.

Do you REALLY treat other people like you'd like to be treated? If someone had a problem with something you'd done would you like them to post a bitchy little message about it on a message board?

perhaps they're being wary of you, expecting you to revert back and not keep it up. I can't help feeling that you have a defeatist attitude, which means that your more or less wasting your time. It's as if your thinking to yourself, oh well, i'll go through the motions, then I can prove everyone that they're wrong, again...

ILX needs a new troll, obv. A whipping boy. Would make everyone feel better. Any volunteers?

i volunteer oops

is anyone else as bored with this as i am?

i agree with what everyone else said pro-alan.

ALAN MUST STAY!

Bitchy little post: did graham actually ban james blount?

Vicky, explain this phenomena to me: I say something funny to someone. They laugh. I say something else. They laugh again. I think I'm making a good impression. They wander off and speak to someone else. Huh? Next time I see them, they as good as don't remember who I am. So I try again. Same thing happens. Same with email. People plain don't reply.

Graham

you try too hard, but you don't actually listen to the advice people give you, let alone take any of it. Which is why you've alienated so many people who now want nothing to do with you.

Graham, one particularly irksome thing you've done before and again today is hang the spectre of your own suicide over some relatively trivial to-do about which some ILXor has reasonably (or even unreasonably) complained, like the only alternative to our total acquiesence to your antics is your jumping from the nearest bridge. Speaking as someone who has seen several friends successfully kill themselves, this kind of talk is really grotesque and unfair.

I don't want advice. I want a cuddle.

Who doesn't?

Graham how about when a very close friend of mine mailed you a present and you responded with an email calling her a bitch? What was the point of that?

Clearly it was a call for a cuddle.

Don't be such a bitch, Dan. *opens arms expectantly*

What I'd like you to do, Graham:

Step one: Stop saying "sorry" when you totally don't mean it. It's more passive aggression, and it's intensely dislikeable (= many points on the "Reasons Not To Cuddle Graham" charts of literally dozens of readers).
Step two: Say sorry, sincerely, to Alan. You owe him a massive, absolute apology, on AND off-board. (Failure to do this = many more points on the "Reasons Not To Cuddle Graham" charts.)

I realise in the mood you're in this afternoon that one and two may not be simultaneously achievable. Try and ensure this mood passes swiftly.

Step three: one really obvious way of showing reciprocal friendship towards me would be behaving in a minimally civil manner towards people that I like.

I think I'll keep the other steps for personal email.

Dan yr a cunt. (come here big guy!)

(that was a misunderstanding Yanc3y)

I think all SQL decisions should be made by majority vote. There are enough geeks round here.

More seriously, without going into the history, it's very nasty to insult someone for a coding "mistake". It's just a little query rewrite and there are ways of being diplomatic about these things.

Fair enough, Graham.

Step two: Say sorry, sincerely, to Alan.
Thanks Mark, butI don't want this. An apology would only make me feel worse - I could have tried harder to make it work. We've had e-mails back and forth over the last 2 months. I've thanked graham for helping me, I've apologised for doing things incorrectly. I've also, unfortunately, neglected to tell Graham when he's being unreasonably unpleasant, and today was just the last straw - I was tired of walking on egg shells. Making it public has made it worse -- i'd rather we hadn't.

Graham, I'm sorry this has happened. You were less than civil with me and I just wasn't in the mood for it today. I'm not changing my mind though. Let's just let it lie.

(And why are you all so keen to think the worst of me?)

There was no need to rewrite the query. If you understood how much work I put into making this all work, and how much stress it's caused me, how much hassle everyone put me through wehn stuff didn't work, you'd understand why having some buffoon coming in and changing things without any care for why I might have done things the way I did was so totally offensive to me.

Alan doesn't get an apology until I get one from everyone here that's hurt me.