Racism

I think a lot of people hold racist views that they don't realize are racist and they even think are positive ("Jews are great with money" type thing), just because of the way they are brought up. It doesn't make them racist in any tradtional sense.

When I was younger, people used to ask me if my sister was adopted. People would be surprised that she could do well in school, "almost as well as Allison". Most of you have seen what I look like. My sister is dark, dark skinned, dark haired. One time my friend asked me why my sister was a Mexican. It never really occured to me that that's why they all thought she was adopted. We just look like the two different halves of our families.

*shrugs* It kind of bothers me in retrospect but at the time I hated my sister so I didn't really give a shit.

I take advantage of it sometimes, like now with my going back to school. I make sure I mark off that I'm hispanic on the applications for information, because they ALL have that same ludicrious fucking response, "She's so smart...for a minority". And they all have these great intentions in mind when they act that way, to "improve" the underclass or whatever, but in the end it's the same damaging idea that holds everyone BACK.

So there's my ramble for the day. I'm really fucked off with work again so I'm not thinking straight.

If that makes any sense. Does it?

1. a tentative no.
2. oh yes.
3. yes.
4. not that i can recall at the moment. probably will later.
5. none that i know of. probably more than i suspect.
6. when it crosses over into the presentation of "fact."
7. if classicism counts (cf. the white poor), then every day.
8. dan, have you been watching boston public too?

But Ned, the domsoc in the US prefers also the ritual of Christianity to the actual philosophy of Christ (a bit of a commie, in fact). Surely it's not a racial revelation, but one about how institutional power co-opts and defuses radical thought?

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?
Yes, but its all relative - there are degress of being open-minded as there are degress of being racist

- Can racism be unlearned?
Yes i think so - i'm sure you can make someone think twice about making racist remarks, to the extent where they do actually rethink internally and not just for fear they'll be criticised themselves. people can realise they're wrong or misinformed/miseducated and see the error of their ways after all

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?
touchy subject! i would answer this but it will need serious consideration and care

Outside of an explicit, active, power dynamic I think this question sums up all the others (including "does discussing racism perpetuate the conditions that allow it to exist" - jeez I hope not). I think it's possible to unlearn racist beliefs through exposure; I've seen it happen. I'm sort of struggling to make a point here, though, without a specific example to work from.

Here's one: last year I actually said "Dude, I just can't understand why Mexicans don't like baseball." The implication being they are hispanic = they should all be alike. I realized right away (prompted by the evil looks on my friends' faces) what an idiot I was, but was I being racist?

Anyway, my answers to your questions, in brief:

- Is it possible to hold racist views and not be a racist?

No.

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

Yes.

- Can racism be unlearned?

Yes.

- How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?

I spent my last two years of high-school in Anti-Racist Action, which was not at all like what the organization looks like nationally, because we didn't have a clue what we were doing (not that most of the organization nationally does either). I learned that bullshit "we're all the same under the skin" hippie-handholding sessions got us nowhere.

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?

Am I allowed to say "none"?

- When does racial ignorance become racism?

In America, immediately -- because you can't escape race.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?

Nearly Daily.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

No.

A racist is someone who takes race into account, or someone who holds one's race against one?

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

If the latter definition, no. If he changes his mind on the issue, he's no longer within the definition of racist, is he? Actually, I have a problem with someone being 'branded' a racist in this way, because I think racism is constructed by context. I could see someone being racist when asked a question in a certain way, and not racist when asked essentially the same question in a different way. 'Is Britain losing its identity under a flood of asylum seekers and refugees?' versus 'Do you agree that one of Britain's strengths has always been the warm welcome it gives people persecuted overseas?'

- Can racism be unlearned?

If race stops being a 'signifying difference' perhaps another 'signifying difference' will replace it. For instance, after 9/11 being a Muslim sort of replaced being black for a while, no? 'Driving while Muslim' got your car stopped, not 'Driving while black'.

- How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?

Married Bengali woman. Would need book to answer this question.

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?

Those imparted by the societies I've been formed by, with all their contradictions. Actually, I don't think racial issues penetrate my subconscious. I don't dream in 'colour'.

- When does racial ignorance become racism?

When someone judgemental enough blames an uneducated person for being just that.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?

I'm daily held at a distance here in Japan because I'm a 'gaijin'.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

To some extent, I think yes. It plants more mines in the minefield.

Perhaps so -- but the framing of it first hit a realization in my mind in those terms on that issue. Therefore it's a bit more grounded for me that way than due to, say, economic or religious considerations.

"Dude, I just can't understand why Mexicans don't like baseball."

this is not necessarily a racist comment because if baseball is not generally popular in Mexico (as basketball isnt in the UK) then you're entitled to make such a comment...regardless of how lazy a generalisation it is

Well, put it this way. Discussion isn't going to stop race being a 'signifying difference'. Race must 'wither away' and become totally unremarkable for that to happen.

(obviously this is a nature vs. nurture question)

Would this be more acceptable without the last line?

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

1. Seems pretty hardcore to me. Even for 1936.
2. Is a bit vague. Some racial 'discrimination' is correct. For instance, don't give Asians too much beer because they lack the enzymes to process alcohol that other races have developed.

Uh-oh, Nazis inevitably to thread.

This is why I'm trying to introduce effective power dynamics into the discussion. What is the difference between making a veiled racial comment towards an African-American person now (when such talk is usually condemned, so must be disguised) and back during a time when the person speaking could've literally gotten their target thrown out of the place (and possibly worse) with just a word (when subtlety matters because it's not necessary to be explicit)?

No. (I don't actually think it is possible not to be racist at this point in human history, regardless of what yhow openly racist your personal views may be. That said, there are obviously quantifiable difference in people's racist views--i.e. some people's views are more negative and destructive than others.)

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

Yes, the fact that you are close-minded or rely stereotypes to judge/compartmentalize/etc some groups of people doesn't negate the possibility that one can still be open-minded about many other things.

- Can racism be unlearned?

Yes to a limited extent. One can learn to attempt to not rely on cultural/racial crutches, but racism won't ever disappear completely unless ALL distinctions based on skin-color disappear completely and that seems unlikely to occur anytime soon.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

No. That's the Ward Connelly argument and it's idiotic. Acknowledgement of the existence of SOMETHING which does EXISTS does not perpetuate it existence, because shock of shocks it already EXISTS. Pretending racism doesn't exist and not seriously discussing the effects of racism is what ensures that the conditions which allow racism to exist will be perpetuated.

Before I tackle the questions, it's important to distinguish between the definitive and colloquial definitions of racism re: Nabisco's point above... the colloquial one being more akin to bigotry. I think there are many who think they are not racist because they feel their views aren't fully in sync with the much publicized organizations like the KKK or what have you. I bring this up, because it's the crux of my problem growing up with my family, which I really should describe in detail to give some background and context.

OK, yeah, I am a white male of various European backgrounds... genetically, I'm a Euromutt. I was raised by my grandparents (maternal) and my mom. My grandfather is Greek, and my grandmother is originally French/German. My grandparents used to live in Sudan, where my grandfather ran a wrought iron factory. Because of political insurrection in Sudan in the early to mid 50s, they decided to sneak out to the States, and settled in west Los Angeles suburbs, where they pretty much stayed the rest of their lives. Both of them lived out their prime years during World War II. Til' his dying days (earlier this year), my grandfather has always warned me and my family to be careful of Germans and black people. My grandmother had always "figured out" every race, and has warned me thusly. Of course, growing up in the 80s in Santa Monica, I had no reason to see why I had to "be careful" of Germans, black people, mexicans, or what have you, so being the loudmouth, I'd always immediately complain whenever I was given these warnings. My grandfather's racism was far more blunt and universal, always expressing dismay whenever he'd see a black person kissing a white person on some TV game show or something. As usual, I'd retort "what's wrong with that?!", and I'd get yelled out, smacked, and/or punished.

The problem was.. they didn't think they were being racist, because they weren't "KKK" or something extreme like they see on TV. Also, they had "good reason" to have their views, because I NEVER EXPERIENCED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO HAVE MY CAR OVERTURNED BY AN ANGRY RIOT OF BLACK PEOPLE THREATENING TO KILL ME (referring to their final days in Sudan). I'd attempt to explain that times were now different, and I would likely never have to experience that again, I'd always get the "OH YEAH? WAIT TIL' YOU GROW UP, BRIAN. YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM. YOU'LL LEARN THE HARD WAY!". It also didn't help that where I mostly grew up -- Pacific Palisades, CA -- was a bastion of racist Republican Deadheads. Tha' Palisades was known (and is still known today) as a haven for white racist groups in the Los Angeles area, little did I know when I was young, and I'm sure some of my friends' friends were directly related -- all the way until high school. Pacific Palisades and Malibu aren't alone. A lot of more affluent surf cities in Southern California are a bit rich in white supremacy groups. (My grandparents never knew about these groups, and still don't today)

Unfortunately, my family's and friends' views from my early days still leave barely visible mental scars. To this day, I have this irrational moment of fear whenever I walk through a run-down neighborhood that's predominantly black or mexican. At this point, it's just a shudder that quickly fades away. But it used to be worse, and it was enough to have a huge affect on my social skills and sense of urban adventure for many years. Thankfully, I feel those issues have been mostly tackled and left behind.

So anyway, the questions:

* Is it possible to hold racist views and not be a racist?

Uh, no. If you have racist views, you're a racist.

* Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

Sure!

* Can racism be unlearned?

Yes.. to varying degrees dependent on one's history. Sometimes completely.

* How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?

Are we talking globally known events like the Los Angeles riots of 1992? MLK? Or personal ones? or both?

* What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?

I'd hope I don't hold any conscious racial prejudices anymore. I already explained the slight subconscious ones I do have, which I'm hoping will become extinct very soon.

* When does racial ignorance become racism?

You mean ignoring people of a certain race? Ignoring the factors/advantages/handicaps one race has to deal with? Or ignoring the issue of race altogether? Those are all totally different things.

* How often do you encounter covert racism?

I've been sensing it wherever I go. It was far more obvious when I was living in Orange County, CA. But I think it exists in Seattle, more in relation to Native Americans, as opposed to Mexicans in the O.C. case.

* Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

No! Not when its trying to achieve a solution.

--

Well, I guess I came up with more questions for Dan than answers here. Anyway, I feal really good that I've taken some time to put my thoughts together regarding these issues and how they relate to my growing up. I've always wanted to get this off my chest.

My family's racist views are 75% influenced by TV. Since I was born, the TV has always been on at least 12 hours a day, every day. Most of the warnings I'd get about various races where inferred from the news stories they'd see on TV. To this day, my grandmother is completely disgusted of Mexicans, because "they're stealing jobs from real Americans, and go out and rape and kill American teenage girls" amongst many other things. I haven't watched TV or cable for about five years, and I'm now starting to think I waited a decade too long to kill my television.

Sterling: I only consider strictly-cultural attacks "racist" when they reveal that the person making the argument is unable to differentiate between individual attitudes and the attitudes of sub-sets of the racial group and the racial group as an undifferentiated spiritually-linked blob who all act the same way for the same reasons (which usually tends to happen four seconds into the argument).

I don't disagree with this, but could it be the result (in the US) of a visible miscegenation between different Europeans settlers, to the point where their original "ethic" characteristics no longer seem relevant? Think about, for example, people who are 1/4 Irish, or whatever, so they get heavily into the Pogues and Synge and stay drunk all the time (I'm not making this up, tasteless as it sounds). Whereas African miscengenation was mostly invisible because of the slave status of the people who were imported?

I also suspect relations of power play heavily into this as well, since it's in the interest of power to naturalize itself.

Interesting question.

applying the approach in nabisco's first post, I am wondering about the following:

"momus' last statement isn't "racist", but calling drunken asian's "red skulls" certainly would be. "

hmmmmm.

Because if anti-racism means the attempt to make race a 'non-signifying difference', becoming more conscious of race may not be the best strategy. (Or maybe we need to be aware of the issue before ceasing to care about the issue?)

What if I considered personality more important than race? In other words, what if I were puzzled that Dan and Nitsuh spoke sometimes on these boards as if their race were more important than their personalities? What if I thought Dan and Nitsuh had nothing in common at all? Would I be a racist?

Then cue me to expostulate: Whaddya mean, rule? Because I'm white, I rule? When Nitsuh may one day be pitchforking my album in a review on Pitchfork? How am I ruling?

And cue me to notice that I am not allowed to take race into account in my dealings with people, but neither am I allowed to leave race out of account.

Catch 22, baby!

Am I allowed to have an 'avant garde' attitude to race -- assuming, and acting as if, it were already no longer a 'signifying difference' -- or do I have to wait for everyone in the whole society to catch up to that position?

Racism is about putting people at a disadvantage for no other reason than their race. Whether this be by villifying the person's race, or elevating another's race above theirs, is completely up to the racist themselves.

It's naive and moronic to think that race will completely dwindle into insignificance. Somebody's race is frequently one of the first things you notice about them. To try and stop people thinking about race is like trying to stop people from judging other based on their physical appearance. It always has happened, does happen, and will continue to happen as long as humans exist.

The point of discussing racism openly is that we can act towards reducing the way in which race contributes towards our judgement of others. Reducing (and eventually destroying) the prejudices associated with race. This cannot be done by simply never speaking of race ever again. People who harbour thoughts that attribute certain character traits to people of certain bloodlines need to be informed otherwise. This cannot be done in silence.

Additionally, we simply cannot "stop seeing race" because to do so would be to encourage massive ignorance of other cultures, a racist act in itself. How can we show respect for differences if we refuse to acknowledge its existence?

A more appropriate word than 'judging' would be 'appraising'. I mean this aesthetically, sexually.

I don’t think so, no. To me being a racist is judging somebody purely on their race, not getting to know them and just making sweeping assumptions based purely on your preconceptions. Even if you are not in a position to disadvantage them and you have no impact on their life at all, I’d still say you are being racist by making those assumptions.

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

I dunno, I believe a lot of racism stems from ignorance, many racists are simply not aware their actions/opinions are offensive and sometimes meeting other races and experience other cultures helps to open your eyes. On the other hand a long term died-in-the-wool out and out racist is probably not gonna even take the time to find out about people from different races because they believe there is nothing worth experiencing.

- Can racism be unlearned?

Yes. I know somebody who was a member of the BNP in the past, I think purely because of their upbringing and lack of contact with people of other races. Once this person grew up a little, educated themselves and got to know some people from other cultures and races they totally changed their views (as far as I am aware, and we have discussed the topic at length)

- How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?

Racism was never really an issue in my life when I was a child, purely because where I’m from is not particularly ethnically diverse, there were no people of other races or even religion at either of my schools. I experienced bigotry but not racism until I was older and worked very closely with a very small ethnic minority group – the extent of racial abuse and racist attitudes they come up against still shocks me to this day. I suffered unbelievable abuse just for being out in a pub with them!

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?

I would like to say I have none but recently I voiced the opinion that people from ethnic minority groups are more racist (towards other ethnic minority groups) than white people. Thinking afterwards I realised that that’s just based on my experience working with people from one ethnic minority, and it’s a sweeping statement covering a vast amount of people, so maybe I do hold racist views

- When does racial ignorance become racism?

I think my definition of racism covers this one.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?

Not so much now, but as I said above, when working with a particular group of people I came into contact with it on a daily basis.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

I don’t think so, discussion often leads to learning and learning is never a bad thing in my opinion

I think it is also very important to have knowledge of difference within racial groups; it's been pointed out to me on more than one occasion that (for ex) a Jamaican and a Bajan might hail from a similar place, the Caribbean, but are not the same. At the same time, I love negotiating and understanding those differences; one of my best friends is Sikh and when she tells me about issues around Sikh identity and her family history I feel 'trusted' to appreciate those things, just as when I tell her about growing up in the American midwest I'm crediting her with the nous to figure that people from my neck of the woods are all individuals too, despite common origins.

If we're to judge people at all - and judgementalism is part of human makeup - I say, do it from what's inside someone's brain, not what wraps around the outside. I infer *much* more from the choices people have actual control over: books, their choice of friends, career chioces, their modes of expression and modes of dress.

Suzy, seeing as much racism these days is really anti-culture as opposed to anti-genes, do you think that it's so easy to separate cultural choices from race and racism? eg. if you base your opinion of someone on the basis of, among other things, their familiarity with high-culture (ie. Western) lit, is that impervious to accusations of racism? (I'm not at all suggesting that you're doing this or anything like it BTW!) Where, if at all, do neutral likes and dislikes become implied codes of behaviour created and reinforced by systemic racism?

Tim, I just think it's possible for people from all races and backgrounds to share my interests and vice-versa. Yes, I'm a product of the West, but my West is by no means just a white West. I am very much the kind of person who is prepared to use what authority I have to a) push pluralism of ideas and influences and b) resist the stigmatisation or stereotyping of others based solely on cultural and racial background.

This is all to do with knowing someone, learning about them, and then meeting someone who has similarities to the first person, whether they be physical, intellectual, fashion-based, age, name, star-sign, make of car, favourite music, religion, food-preferences and so on. What happens is that I expect that person to have things in common with the first person that they might actually not.

Basically, if your name is Adam or Damien I'm going to expect the worst of you. I have had no experiences to make me doubt the veracity of my bias in this regard.

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?
Where I live there are a lot of Asian immigrants, and I worry when I go over to my friends' houses that their families think I am stupid because they are able to understand how two cultures work, the one they grew up in and the one they live in now, but I only know this one. That worry is probably unfounded most of the time but I don't know. Also I worry sometimes that black people whom I don't know see me and wonder if I'm racist, so I'm automatically on guard to be egalitarian, which I think is a racist attitude because I'm not alert that way with everyone. So I may be the most racist person on ILX, but I don't know how NOT to think that I may be unwittingly and constantly doing something wrong because I'm white and only speak one language.

- When does racial ignorance become racism?
I don't know, I guess it depends on the type of ignorance. Because if it's ignorance that says "Oh I never thought of thinking people are different because of skin color," that isn't racism. But if you say "Oh I never thought of thinking that people with different skin colors are the same species" that is racism. Er. Those are exaggerated examples.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?
Not regarding myself very much but I see it happening to my friends all the time. Like one of them has dual citizenship with the US and Pakistan, and last year on September 11 people kept asking her, "Why would you want to do that? What's wrong with you people?" And there are just little examples of ideas about Asian people all the time, some of which I may say without knowing it.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?
It doesn't matter, because NOT discussing racism definitely perpetuates the conditions that allow racism to exist. If you don't discuss it, there will still be people acting racist because that's the way they see OTHER people act who've already learned it. We need to be aware of how we think and what we do.

I mean, like Clarence Thomas probably jumps just as much when gets pulled over by a cop car at 2am as like Dre would or something.

I think a big problem here is our desire to understand people, to have some common narrative that we can just take for granted about everyone. "Racism" begins when someone comes up with a common narrative for all people of a particular race, and assumes it even in the presence of lots of individual traits that indicate otherwise. Again: surely it's possible to be aware of the cultures and narratives that do tend to exist among groups (and accurate about them), but to let people exist as they are rather than mentally forcing them into or using them as confirmations or rejections of these roles.

And yeah, there are a lot of mostly-harmless gray areas around just sort of making innocent assumptions about people's backgrounds -- and I think most reasonable people don't get angry or label you a racist for making a bad assumption, so long as you're honest about it. But as soon as I, for example, perceive that the bulk of a person's reaction to me is concerned with race, and that this reaction isn't going to be affected at all with my actual behavior and personality, we're well out of the gray.

Totally. I went through a phase, when I had very few close friends who weren't white, and was in a more racially diverse place than Minneapolis, ie NYC/London, of asking those friends questions about their backgrounds, families, religious beliefs, etc which was probably *really irritating* for my friends short-term but I would much rather ask than assume, because understanding and acknowledgement of difference within an assumed equality is how you keep friendship going.

It's made me feel *deeply* squiffy and ashamed to tell those friends (and you lot) that certain family members have racial prejudice hardwired, that they only believe in the most abstract forms of equality and sit there kvetching about what person of color X has or doesn't have versus what they have or don't, who's lazy, who's combative, who's whatever - all shite generalisations. I could cite a few more examples where the racism of people in my family has caused unhappiness in that it stopped them from sharing time, etc. with people who weren't white and it drives me fucking nuts. Having said that, what do you do with people who have friends of different races who say, 'x is great, and is the first person to diss people of his/her race who are bad, so what the hell am I doing wrong if I also do it?' AAAAGH.

For the record I thought Nitsuh was female, possibly Asian, when I first read his posts (!) so go figure ;-).

Suzy, I don't know how to ask this without coming off as smug, and I certainly don't mean to be smug, but... did the family members you're referring to ever attend college? If so, what kind?

Except for my grandmother (who didn't exactly go to "colleges" per se), none of my immediate relatives ever attended college (or even high school in some cases).. and I believe that their attitudes towards race might have been very different had they gone to college.
(though I stress "might".)

Ultimately, it really depends on the college, but I know my views of race would be in line with my family's, still, had I not attended U.C. Irvine or something similar.

Of course, there are several socio-economic levels of racism that operate, and I'm not trying to induce that racism is only a symptom of undereducation. But it is a related topic that's come to mind since the start of the thread.

Boy, was I naive. For one thing, there was this frat that would wear blackface and grass skirts. That's an extreme example, but there was also a lot of subtle racism that I encountered all the time, even among liberal 'activist' students. A lot of it had to do with the fact that many of the white students came from schools and communities where there were few people who weren't white - which certainly wasn't the case where I grew up. A lot of them would talk a lot of superficial talk about equality and quote Martin Luther King and things like that - they were really self-congratulatory about how 'liberal' they were, but they would treat the black students around them like aliens, with bafflement and/or snooty disdain for perceived cultural differences.

(I PROMISE I will write something substantitive on this thread before the weekend!)

One incident I remember from 9th grade: it's go to work with a relative day and my uncle the BIG CHEESE COP (not racist) allows me to ride in squad car all day following some of his officers on calls. One of them takes a call from a 7-11 manager who is calling because an NA kid has tried to pay with a $100 bill and (I quote) 'probably shouldn't have it'. This outraged me; I decided some rough justice was in order when the cops had checked on the manager and ticked him off for wasting police time. So I asked my uncle for the biggest note he had ($50) and went in to buy an Icee; of course the guy went to take my cash with not so much as a flinch. At the last moment I flicked the bill out of his hand and said 'I've changed my mind. Why am I allowed to have a load of money and the Native American kid isn't? Do you have anything to say for yourself or are you just a stupid racist fucker who'll never have anything better than this shitty job selling Icees to kids?' I get back to the car, my uncle's like 'what did you do?' and I replied 'something he won't forget in a hurry'.

And Kerry, I'm so glad I never went to Northwestern if it was like that!

Invisible Man readers to thread!

It wasn't as much that U.C. Irvine was a university that actively fought against racism as much as just myself being forced to deal with a large population of people my age of varying ethnic backgrounds all at once. Once I got forced to develop some critical thinking skills, it was just a matter of exploring and getting to know my neighbors and students better (and not necessarily believing what they say and do) and that helped quench a lot of previously ignorant thoughs about different races.

For some people, that oasis of escape and clarity is -- dare I say -- the military. Say what you want about the negative effects of a military environment, but most of the folks I know who went through military training of some sort came out less ignorant in relation to race.

But I reiterate a similar disclaimer... Ultimately, it depends on the military training institution. And given the ultimate purpose of military training, and how it relates to conflicts in the world today, there are a lot of contradictions.

"His current research is a book on manliness and "...

Holy shiitake. Maybe I don't want explanations.

I'm trying to bring up something a bit different. There are things that all black people in Britain have in common, not because they are black, but because they are black in a racist country. If I am in any kind of relationship with someone and want to understand them and their experience, this kind of thing is a factor, albeit to an uneven degree, but it is always part of their lives (and speaking as a white male, similar statements can be made about women; sexuality is a slightly different issue, since it is not necessarily visible to everyone). In my limited experience (the big majority of the people I've been close to in my life have been white), black people have pretty low expectations of how well white people will get any of this, and very rarely hold that kind of ignorance against white people at all. I'm not trying to suggest that not knowing or grasping this is racist, but I do think that an awareness of the effects of racism, an ability to see the subtler sort of racism (unlike one colleague of mine at work, an intelligent and liberal man, who has asserted that only 'Sun readers' - clearly code for the uneducated working class - are at all racist in Britain) is essential for intelligent and productive opposition to racism. I also kind of suspect that, factoring in the extent of anyone's exposure to such matters, a complete inability to see the effects, or to take them seriously, at least suggests a lack of interest, or an unwillingness to see.

Let's try the opening questions:
- Is it possible to hold racist views and not be a racist?
No, by my idea of the meanings of the words, but there are degress, obv.

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?
Again, there are degrees, but I do see racism as pretty directly opposed to open-mindedness.

- Can racism be unlearned?
Yes. Growing up in a racist society with racist parents (in a mildish way) and in a 100% white area, I had a lot to learn and unlearn. I don't imagine that I've finished.

- How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?
I'm white in a white country, so very little direct impact, but people I've cared about have been affected plenty. This is a subject about which I could write tens of thousands of words, but I don't think any of them would be terribly new or revelatory.

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?
I think most of what I have left is subconscious, and I hope there isn't much of it. I went through an astonishing degree of grilling, and having to jump hurdles, with the woman I mentioned above - she is an award-winning black novelist who takes race as a major subject, and it was an advanced course in race in Britain and elsewhere. I learnt a lot, of the kind of stuff I talk about in my second para above, but I seemed to pass all the tests with flying colours.

One thing: where does actual observational evidence of racial difference fit in? For instance, the vast majority of the best sprinters have been black for a long time. I've seen explanations to do with a difference in the achilles' tendon, but whatever the reason, it seems to be a genuine difference. Obviously I don't wander around assuming that any given black person must be a terrific sprinter, and it's hardly an important part of racism, but how about if I bring up that I have seen a far lower proportion of black people dance badly than white people? I'm positive the numbers are strongly statistically significant. If I say "I see fewer bad black dancers than bad white ones" I don't suppose there will be any fuss, but is this so far removed from things I'd deprecate, like talk of 'natural rhythm'?

- When does racial ignorance become racism?
Another essay question, one aspect of which I talked about above. Generally, people who don't notice the race of others are very unlikely to be racist, I think.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?
I don't notice it too often, but I don't get that many opportunities to notice it in the life I live. I see it on ILX here and there, now and then, and in real life a bit. I don't doubt that it's there all the time, but I can't think how in my life I would be in a position to encounter it often.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?
As many of said, the opposite: there are a good number of people who claim that the battles have finished, that there isn't important racism left. This understanding can only be challenged and re-educated by talking about it. There is a big gap between 'no more lynchings and equal opportunities laws' and 'racism has been eradicated', and some people need that gap explained. (This is as true of sexism too, though there are even more people claiming the feminist cause has either been achieved or, crazily, gone too far.)

It's like if you're friends with someone with funny coloured hair, really fat or skinny or tall or short, a nose-ring, bad scars on their face, missing limbs or whatever. You notice it when you first meet them but then when you know them a bit, you don't notice it anymore.

It can be really amazing to sit back and try to look at someone you're with and see them how strangers see them. It can be really freaky too.

For this guy, presumably growing up in a semi-racist society, black was other and what he was saying was that he didn't see her as "other". Like, if she said "I don't see you as white, I just see you as you" would it have been a problem?

I could be wrongly defending this guy but I'm one of those people who just don't see things that other people see. I usually don't notice that a friend has purple hair or a nose ring or a big scar on their face, much to everyone else's surprise.

When I was a teenager I had a boyfriend who was full blood Aboriginal. Intellectually I knew he was black but I never noticed it really. One day we were on the same bus but didn't know it. He was down the front and I was up the back. I was just sitting there checking people out and I noticed, from back on, that there was only one Aboriginal person on the bus - he turned around and for a split second I viewed him as a stranger. It gave me a real shock when I realised that it was him and that he was black - not because it was a problem, but just because it was unexpected. It was really strange that up until then I just didn't really know.

IMHO (and actually, in the American Heritage Dictionary's), the word 'racist' implies only that the person so described holds racist views -- nothing more, nothing less.

- Is it possible to be an open-minded racist?

Presumably, one can be closed-minded about one thing and open-minded about another. I suspect that racism is largely the product of close-mindedness, but I can envision a person who is simply convinced that he is racially superior but is willing to be persuaded that his views on economics aren't quite solid. Not that I'd be interested in hanging out with that person, mind you.

- Can racism be unlearned?

Undoubtedly. Existence precedes essence. Although it's incredibly difficult to get rid of some of the most pervasively subtle attitudes about race, the more dogmatic ones can be self-purged.

- How have racial incidents impacted your life and what lessons/impressions did you take away from them?

When I was in college, I was often confronted with racially charged situations, since I was in the lefty political circles around campus.
I think I've learned that Americans like to pretend things are different than the way they actually are, and our attitudes about race are symptomatic of that.

- What racial prejudices/stereotypes do you hold?/What racial prejudices do you suspect you subconsciously hold?

I've got a lot of leftover classist racism from the richsnob suburb where I spent my formative years. Because of the almost complete absence of diversity from the area, residents developed near-instant suspicion of minorities. Even ten years later, bits of that still crop up from time to time. Really though, its not much different from the times when other nasty bits of my personality / mind / memories pop up -- I just attempt note the existence of the thought and nullify it with more logical thinking. Most of the time that works.

- When does racial ignorance become racism?

See above.

- How often do you encounter covert racism?

Often. In America, racism *is* covert racism.

- Does discussion of racism perpetuate the conditions that allow racism to exist?

No. Racism exists because people just don't like to think. Shorthand sterotypes which work some of the time are just easier for the average person to deal with than more nuanced discussions of why those stereotypes are flawed, but the latter is one of the only ways to extinguish the former.

-1 white new zealander
-2 west london muslim (egyptian parents)
-3 east london mixed race (west indian-white english)
-4 north london, parents fillipino (sp, sorry -- i think it is an 'f', tho)

anyway, '3' had had a bad experience at the hands of a very rude sales assistant in a shop. she was miffed... but then '1' jumped in with 'was she black?' i was all wtf and expected, well, something to happen (they were by my desk, i wasn't listening in), but then '2' and '4' jumped in and were like 'yeah, black shop assistants omg...'). now '1' is really right-wing, always on about immigrants, but it struck me as very, very odd that she'd say this in front of three non-white people. '3' said the shop assistant was 'sucking her teeth', but i don't think she was comfortable with the situation.

Here on Martha's Vineyard I, a white person, sometimes feel uncomfortable when other white people start going on about how they're so glad to have "gotten away from the city." I feel like they're about to launch into something.

-1 white new zealander
-2 west london muslim (egyptian parents)
-3 east london mixed race (west indian-white english)
-4 north london, parents fillipino (sp, sorry -- i think it is an 'f', tho)

1 has to return to nz cos her visa has expired; in front of 2, 3, and 4, she starts going on about all 'those people who just come over here to sponge'. 3 said 'i know' in this kind of deliberate way, but i can't even tell if anyone noticed, cos no-one else batted an eyelid :0(

Meh people.

Tony Blair says "vast bulk of prisoners should be deported whatever the dangers in their home nations"