I'll give all my cash to anyone on ILX who can convert me to Christianity without the aid of drugs, reeducation seminars, or threats of physical force.

I accept checks.

Approach Christianity this way:
1. Christianity is more open-minded than most conservative Christians and athiests would have you believe.
2. Jesus was a pretty cool guy.
3. The Bible is part history lesson and part cryptic statements about how God thinks. Contrary to popular belief, it's not really a guide to everyday life.

and, of course, the classic:
4. God loves you and is always by your side.

Works for me. Of course, I'm probably f00king up everything Christianity REALLY stands for.

Basically, just believe in God, don't f00k up the world too much, and everything will work out fine.

Christianity is a relationship. I know the offer was made facetiously, but it's not possible to buy your way into Christianity, any more than it is possible to buy your way into any other real relationship.

There are some, like Karl Barth, who say that persons seeking God are not really seeking on their own, but that their search is anticipated and facilitated by God at all times. So if the quest is genuine (which to be honest, I doubt) ask and be answered, seek and you will find. And get into a church, for crying out loud--being Christian alone is like dieting alone...it's hard to do, feels utterly unrewarding, and misses out on the joy to be had in communal worship.

Oh, and I've been told to tell you that I', not a 'psycho googler.' Whatever that is.. Melissa W. keeps trying to get me addicted by posting the incendiary-est of the Christian messages. Tart.

mind you I believe a few of the most ridiculous spiritual propositions known to man, I just don't believe that there is any rational argument whatsoever for faith in divine powers

But since you ask...I presume what you're asking is, why do people need to look when God could just reveal Godself..the answer I find is that human action and responsibility are a part of this relationship, and God will not override our wills and ability to freely choose relationship with him.

To quote another of the neo-orthodoxy theologians of late 19th-century Germany, Emil Brunner, if human beings could see God in Godself, there would no longer be room for faith or doubt--the truth would be so self-evident that it would blind the will and the actual choice to follow God would be an empty one because choosing 'no' would be ludicrous. For that reason, he says, every revelation of God is also a concealment of God.

Tell me briefly what you know or think about the doctrine of 'grace'

I should clarify, at the possible expense of draining all the hilarity from this thread, because my thread has seemingly made the opposite of its intended impression on you. Which is entirely my fault for being too jocular. Although the proposal sounds mocking, there are psuedoserious intentions behind it. (I didn't intend to insult or trivialize Christianity. I certainly don't intend to buy my way into it, Pat Robertson notwithstanding. )

Not to make too much of something I didn't think through terribly well, but....

I actually am extremely curious about the nature of faith, and have long wished to unburden myself of the psuedo-Marxist indifference-cum-hostility to religion with which I was raised. I am always eager to hear about people's conversion experiences, or perhaps if they were raised as a Christian, the moments that galvanized their faith. I'm curious to know what forces influenced them—but can you speak of "influence" on something that is ostensibly not a "decision" at all? So what I'm most curious about, and what may be impossible to "learn" in the ways that I have learned other things, is what faith feels like.

The fact that I am approaching this from an intellectual vantage point at all betrays the burden of my education, but as John pointed out, I do accept the reality of conversion and no longer parrot the line that religion is a superstructural reflection of underlying social dynamics, or what have you. And my reasons aren't all intellectual. They are moral and emotional as well. As I mentioned on another thread, my complacent psuedo-Marxist notions of how the world was organized, and as important how it might be organized, were thrown for a loop in college. The moral underpinnings of my inherited "belief" system were left exposed. And I am not someone who is comfortable with this kind of despair (as in the pat Momus formulation, "morality is vanity").

I look to those who have faith, a belief in the possibility of transcendence, with admiration and considerable envy (also much suspicion and mistrust, depending upon the person). I don't mean to condescend to Christianity by interpreting it solely as a kind of palliative to existential despair. But I honestly would welcome more dialogue with it. Since no one in my circle of friends can claim to be a Christian, and most of them dismiss it quite out of hand, I thought this thread would be a Fun Way to Approach the Subject. I didn't expect too many Christians to come out of the ILX woodwork, though. I'm glad you have.

In all seriousness, Heather, please point out any examples of condescension/patronization/etc. in my message. I had a professor in school (a devout Methodist) who was very patient with my asking him questions, but in the "real world" I have to learn how to communicate without insulting anyone.

(P.S. Heather, are you studying theology or divinity?)

***

Any kind of Fun to be had in this thread has likely been spoilt by this longwinded (and semicoherent) message, for better or worse.

Hmmm (retreats back into his comfy lair of logical positivism).

Am I the clumsiest poster on ILX?

John for a moment I pictured you as a deacon in Al Green's church. I can only imagine the music that might result.

oh and piss off Noodles ;)

Yeah, I want to emphasize how brilliant Chesterton is. I seriously believe that with 'Orthodoxy' he has written the best rational argument for why Cristianity is the truth. For all Chrisitians and non-christians alike it's a great read, and I would be interested in hearing any responses to why his rational is incorrect. Maybe I will have to look for some commentaries on it.

It does have some flaws. It seems like it was written mostly for people who are already Christians to get them to refine their belief more. I would expect it to not cut it.

(By the way, can anyone recommend any books that rationally discredit Christianity. I've been reading to many pro-Christian books, and want to get the other side.)

Doing so has definitely helped me to moderate my adolescent "position" on religion. It was quite a revelation to discover that modernism did not negate religion and in fact perhaps opened up new paths to it.

I don't think so -- an immersion course in language is readily conceded to be the most effective way of learning a new language, and certainly faith (does not equal) the language of day-to-day experience.

He could have put his money in a trust with instructions not to release it in the case of y. If you're going to take a thought experiment that literally.

god is reading this thread and he is all like "lol, money"

Started reading this thread, but got sidetracked by "Wait a minute, crüt is a Christian???"

I think I was quoting something

that is not anywhere on the internet anymore

think the challenge is convert without doing y, not i'll give you any of my money if you do y.

oh wait never mind, I can't remember what was going on in my life when I posted in this thread. I was 15.

I'm not even going to read what I said itt

yeah but if i challenged people to eat a pepperoni pizza without eating the pepperonis, and the prize was the pepperonis, why wouldn't you just eat the pizza normally?

You underestimate the competitive nature of humanity.

Fine print: thread title refers to "all my cash" and not "all my assets" or even "all my money". For example, a checking account is just a cash equivalent, not actual cash. Presumably we were being offered a few small bills and a smattering of coins.

yr analogies confuse, philip

salvation for thirteen bucks and a gallon of pennies

it depends on the amount of pepperonis involved. maybe it is a lot of them.

it doesn't depend on the pepperonis involved at all. the pepperonis will be eaten along with the rest of the pizza, the challenge actually being "if you can encourage me to eat this pizza, including the pepperonis which i am frankly sceptical of, without resorting to using drugs, reeducation seminars or threats of physical force, i will give you all of my cash"

the pepperonis are real. these are not metaphysical pepperonis.

the pepperonis are an article of faith

or, at least they are at my local chipper

oh ye of little spiced meats

"eat ye not of the pork" was the only advice the auld fella piously gave us

the challenge actually being "if you can encourage me to eat this pizza, including the pepperonis make me sincerely believe in something that can't be proven or logically argued, and which i am frankly skeptical of, without resorting to using drugs, reeducation seminars or threats of physical force, i will give you all of my cash"

amateurist's "make" demand undoes the whole challenge. faith seems to be something that people are either raised with or find for themselves.

^ probably covered upthread

Generally speaking, to be converted you must experience something you cannot explain but you feel is so important that you must re-examine your beliefs and then trade them in for a set that better accomodates this new reality. The pressure for such a conversion is often personal trauma, but it can also be a mystical episode.

I'd bet that, historically, the more common route is that some massive change - e.g., invasion or colonization - affects broad swaths of people at the same time, shaking up their sense of who to count as an epistemic authority, and placing tremendous pressure to conform to the new system. I also think that human beings have trouble keeping their religious identities independent from their broader social or political identities, so that if one's social identity is visibly changing under some new set of circumstances, then that can look like a reason in itself to adopt new religious beliefs.

I remember reading a stanza from Hallfred's Saga:

It's the creed of the sovereign
of Sogn, to ban sacrifices.
We must renounce many
a long-held decree of Norns.
All mankind casts Odin's words
to the winds. Now I am forced
to foresake Freyja's kin
and pray to Christ.

Conversion usually works like that, I think. You adopt the new practices that are forced on you, and the line between faith and practice gets fuzzed.

there's this idea of being culturally but not spiritually jewish that i think transfers well to western christianity, to the point that a good percentage of conversions aren't really faith-based.

i mean i could see some gym/yoga memberships being adopted with more spiritual fervor than just "oh hey i'm gonna join this church where all my buddies and possible business connections go to"

just want to pop in and say I've only read a little bit of Alan Watts but he's pretty cool.

i've known more people to convert for social than spiritual reasons

and it's in the context of religious practice that specifically religious spiritual faith arises. it's often assumed that faith precedes religion, but it think it's more often the other way around - at least on the broad, historical level.

faith seems to be something that people are either raised with or find for themselves.

Obv true, but if evangelism didn't work we'd probably have a lot fewer evangelists. If you're the right guy with the right god at the right time, you can clearly make a dent.

I once saw two people accept Christ on the 6 train downtown, between 86th Street and Grand Central. Subway preacher did a little holy talkin', then went around asking who wanted to be saved. Two people took him up on it, which wasn't a bad percentage in a car of maybe 60 people. (They may have already been believers who just wanted to reaffirm, I don't know. But the whole exchange took about 5 minutes, max.)

amateurist's "make" demand undoes the whole challenge. faith seems to be something that people are either raised with or find for themselves.

reverse rilke. 'you must change my life!'

I once saw two people accept Christ on the 6 train downtown, between 86th Street and Grand Central.

Even among evangelicals, these sorts of "come to Jesus" moments are known to be pretty ephemeral.

faith seems to be something that people are either raised with or find for themselves.

There are a number of spooky rituals where it is generally recommended that you use the names and symbols of the religion you were raised in, whether you currently believe it or not. Pretty sure i read about this in a book of Jewish mysticism but not entirely sure.

I once saw two people accept Christ on the 6 train downtown, between 86th Street and Grand Central.

The coolest thing about the Tibetan Book of the Dead is that it says you can reach enlightenment at any point in existence. You don't have to wait to die to go to the afterlife, you can do it on the 6 train downtown.

I once saw two people accept Christ on the 6 train downtown, between 86th Street and Grand Central. Subway preacher did a little holy talkin', then went around asking who wanted to be saved. Two people took him up on it, which wasn't a bad percentage in a car of maybe 60 people. (They may have already been believers who just wanted to reaffirm, I don't know. But the whole exchange took about 5 minutes, max.)

they were probably plants. like when the guys come around with that board game and the first guy to play "wins" $40.

that reference might date me, do people do that on subway trains anymore?

I was gonna say they were plants too and Ive never even seen such a thing happen.

Sorted?

To quote another of the neo-orthodoxy theologians of late 19th-century Germany, Emil Brunner, if human beings could see God in Godself, there would no longer be room for faith or doubt--the truth would be so self-evident that it would blind the will and the actual choice to follow God would be an empty one because choosing 'no' would be ludicrous. For that reason, he says, every revelation of God is also a concealment of God.

^^^^^^ adore watching ppl throwing these boomerangs about

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dqHXCfD46Ns/hqdefault.jpg

hi im a christian after spending most of my adolescence and adulthood as an atheist or agnostic.

i believe jesus was a radical and his life was instructive on how to do good in the context of living under imperial rule and that there is more than . i dont think jesus was god. i believe there is a god but that they are unknowable on earth (i use they/them god pronouns). i pray by myself when i am feeling alone or grateful or aimless or overwhelmed. i don't think christianity is the one true faith; i think there are many others ways to experience the divine. i think this is why the unitarian universalist church is still my church.

*sorry, meant to add this in: "there is more to life than what is evident to us"

dope

i am not a christian but i dig the desert fathers and "the cloud of unknowing" and thomas merton and UUs are my ppl

First I want to know how much money you have, then we'll talk.
― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 7 January 2003 23:17 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

pvmic

loool

Mattew 19:

Once a man came to Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what good thing must I do to receive eternal life?”
“Why do you ask me concerning what is good?” answered Jesus. “There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”

“What commandments?” he asked.

Jesus answered,

“Do not commit murder;
do not commit adultery;
do not steal;
do not accuse anyone falsely;
respect your father and your mother;
and love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

“I have obeyed all these commandments,” the young man replied. “What else do I need to do?”

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven; then come and follow me.”

http://i.imgur.com/INyQVLQ.jpg

read this book you can send me the cash via paypal

full-on theist these days tbh

I don't know what I am

Bison, crut otm

Crawford/chachi losing points for not committing his ism to a specific the

So miserable these days, the prospect of god existing is frightening

Michel Henry's "I am the Truth" didn't convert me to Christianity but it did mightily tempt me.