what do you think happens to YOU when you die?

It was a curious experience. I was aware of my senses shutting down, one at a time. First of all I couldn't feel anything (i.e. when having someone held my hand, or when the Paramedics stuck needles into my arm), then my hearing went (I watched people's lips moving, but couldn't hear what they were saying) and finally my sight went. You know when the TV is on, and you switch it off by pulling the plug out of the wall, and the picture shrinks down and then suddenly disappears into a small dot of light in the middle of the screen? Well, it was a bit like that. I suppose that's why so many people who have a 'near death experience' talk of a tunnel of white light - which is precisely what I did see. I also felt very calm and relaxed.

When I regained consciousness some time later, I was in hospital all wired up to monitors and drips etc, and my first words on opening my eyes were along the lines of 'they came for me, but I told them I wasn't going anywhere so they left again'. I don't remember seeing anyone or anything, so this may have just been medication-induced hallucination or something.

As regards mediums, I agree that there are an awful lot of people out there who take pecuniary advantage of people when they are fragile with grief, but I do believe there are people who seem to have an extraordinary talent for sensing or experiencing the supernatural.

I was completely distraught when my father died a few years ago, and I went to see a medium for the first time. I have always been fascinated by spiritualism, and I suppose I was looking for some comfort or something. The medium I went to lived about 50 miles away from me, did not know my home address, telephone number or real name, or any personal details.

She knew immediately that I had come about my father, and mentioned lots of things about his lifestyle, habits etc - all of which were lovely to hear but could so easily have been clever guesswork on her part and skilled reading of my body language.

Then she told me that my father was becoming agitated and 'showing' her a watch with an inscription on the back, and he wanted her to tell me what that insciption said. She told me she couldn't tell me what it said because she didn't understand it, and it made no sense to her - it just loked like a jumble of letters, but she would write them down for me. She wrote down on as notepad "Ni ddychwel doe". This is Welsh for 'yesterday never returns', and was my Dad's old school motto. I had had it engraved on the back of a watch for him the Christmas before he died.

I don't think she could have guessed that.

• A coroner and mortician in my area that I've talked to are notified
  
• The mortician administrates me heparin and/or other good anti-coagulant medications
  
• Puts me body (especially the head) on ice to stave
  off damaging effects of ischemia (lack of blood flow).
  
• Surface and air transportation is quickly arranged to get surgery at my chosen neuro-vitrification/ cryo facility
  
• My brain is suspended until nanomedicine becomes a mature cell repair technology.
  
• I'll wake up in a cloned or robot body or as a digital copy (in the last case it would be good for me to live following the recommendations of "the transparent society", as a damage control cognitive technique to minimize the trauma / chances of suicide on realizing being a copy.
  

I'm not sure yet if I'll go with them but here'an interesting FAQ that covers a lot of interesting questions on this issue.

2. If you were bad during this lifetime you go to New Jersey.

A: Cryonics begins after legal death is declared. But legal death and real death are not the same thing. Legal death merely means that a qualified medical authority has decided that restoring (or attempting to restore) blood circulation is no longer appropriate. Real death then occurs as cells irreversibly deteriorate in the minutes and hours that follow. Real death is only complete when so much cellular information has been lost that a patient is beyond reach of ANY technology. For this reason, we assume that cryonics patients are NOT dead, but in a coma that will eventually be reversible. There are types of surgery today in which the heart is stopped and metabolism is brought to a virtual halt by deep cooling for up to an hour, and then successfully reversed. Cryonics is an extension of this concept to total metabolic arrest (biostatic coma), and reliance on future technology for repair. If future technology can recover today's cryonics patients, then they are just as alive as human embryos that can already be recovered from a cryopreserved state.

I believe that it's over when you die but I also think it's possible that there are a lot of things out there that we don't understand yet. I'm fine with that too. I kinda believe in some sort of karma or something that functions like that; I try to do good things in my life simply because it makes me feel good to do so.

stevem: No idea really. Possibly the 'fausse reconnaissance' mechanism? (Your brain telling you that you've been through this before, shouting 'danger' in a somewhat panicked way, watch out, er, things happen, your life will never be the same etc. etc.)

CJ's story intrigues me i must admit. its the idea that there is so much more going on than meets the senses that provides the main motivation for me sometimes. if death does not provide answers to questions that cannot be answered by life then thats a bit of a bind.

No, it's denial. The Christian reaction used to be: no one really knows, so just in case, here's a set of instructions. The post-Christian reaction is: no one really knows, but it's scary--better don't even think about it.

I'm aware that an answer to Donna's original question would be in order by now, and I do feel kind of uncomfortable. (Relax, I'm fine so far.)

You're assuming that there was such a thing as "your consciousness" before you were conceived. On the basis of what evidence?

Imagining that there must be life after death because one cannot imagine permanent cessation of consciousness is itself an expression of solipsism.

Before I was conceived, it didn't exist...hence the term 'conceived'. Likewise, my arms, eyes, femur, etc. didn't exist before the particular particles were assembled as such.
Asking what your consciousness was like before you were conceived is like asking what the internet was like before computers.

Me too, but it's pretty different from the real thing. I have a friend who I used to drop with regularly who just went to "that place" officially about a month ago. When you suddenly declare in front of your grandmother for no apparent reason that "I am Jesus and I am dead. Jehovah is the devil," with a look of terror that says both, "I can't believe I just said that" and "help me," it must be very, very strange to think to yourself, "and I'm not even on acid."

Any other thing/time... contingency of experience, I believe, is the expression I was (actually not) looking for. But it takes some of the impact out of it, don't you think?

Sure, there's that. Implying you don't even have to die to have things happen to you that aren't on the scale of a coherent individuality.

Some kindergarten philosophy! But it's kinda refreshing.

It's not any other which is odd enough. Out of some 100 billion people who have lived I've been No. 70,798,284,102 or something, and I wonder why it took them so long.

Wild.

See?

I am convinced that while the body human does decay and becomes "a constant source of high-grade loam", the spirit ascends to an afterlife that corresponds to our own personal beliefs. As according to my own beliefs, I do feel I am going to Heaven when I die and putting on the long-promised new body. Maybe for total nonbelievers (i.e. those who do not follow any belief system at all), this means the spirit just hangs around and ends up dying its own death, but I don't know that. I'd like to believe that secular humanists go to Heaven, too, but I don't know how they'd like that nor can I predict God's behavior toward them.

Cause they're more about societal control than 'truth'

That's what i figured, but you'd think the more intelligent, humble, etc. X-tians would realize this and modify the message, but it seems to be a common theme with them all.

Tomorrow it is pancakes with orange cognac for breakfast.

I do believe that those of us going to Heaven will be surrounded by our nearest and dearest, including our pets. I look forward to playing with my little Heidi and my long-passed kitty cat Daisy for eternity.

Oh yeah, and oops, a big hearty "I'm a flawed human being so I'm pissed off right now" FUCK YOU.

I'm somewhat calmed down now so let me explain to you this -- it is NOT OK to say that someone is being "controlled" socially or any other way when that someone is relying on the rock of support that a faith brings them, unless this faith has been proven time and again to be a cult (which Christianity is NOT, thank you very much). It smacks of total disrespect of an individual. In other words, your words (and nickn's agreement) was essentially saying that since I am a Christian that I do not have a brain, that I am a mindless, unquestioning follower. How dare you say that about someone you don't even know. I am not mindless -- I can and do make up my own mind about everything I feel, believe, and think. I do question -- in fact, I went through my own period of questioning God's existence awhile back. I am my own individual person who has felt and seen in my own life the presence of God and the total enveloping warmth and security of my Christian faith. And how dare you think I'm less of a human being for this.

This was my only question, by the way. Some of my best friends are Christians!

As for still preaching it now ... by and large, nick, they don't, with the exception of the pretty young fundamentalist movement, and the "fundamentalist-like" movement within Catholicism, both of which were reactions to modern "enlightenment." Vatican II wiped out the whole "non-Catholic Christians go to Hell, Hell, Hell" thing of Catholicism, and that was forty years ago. Many of the popular Protestant denominations in the U.S. remain largely social institutions which will often go a few Sundays without even mentioning God, much less Hell.

On the other hand, being cremated... damn! No no no, it wouldn't be common practice if it were that bad. Can't be.

I don't think so. No consciousness has been known yet that wasn't the product of a biological carrier. Migration of consciousness (or souls, doesn't matter) isn't a valid proposition either. Still, there's this instance processing all kinds of data, and it's just plain absurd that this should be (sigh, I know) right now, right here etc. instead of being connected to some form of common consciousness. All we have is empathy, communication, that sort of meagre solace. Cosmic consciousness at best, if you're into metaphysical stuff. (Right, I'm not.)

he can be chremated then - i'll go for this option too.

CJ, that was a really touching account. I've had similar experiences.

I'm morbid that collective cynicism has rotted and decomposed into nihilism, but I guess that's, eh, life -> forget about death. : (

its the idea that there is so much more going on than meets the senses that provides the main motivation for me sometimes.
Amen stevem.

it may actually be the fact that finding out the real deal with all this extra-sensory stuff is an 'impossible or unattainable quest', a concept that i personally appear to be attracted to. the 'would you like to live forever?' question is so loaded but the answer for most would be no. would you want to live for 500, maybe 1000 years is much more interesting and i often feel like i wish i could do that or have the option to do that, whilst retaining the ratio with which we enjoy youth in our current life span. still, whether its 500 years, 1000 years or forever, i guess its just not something thats meant to happen (altho cryonics, cell re-juvenation/regeneration and cloning all provide unique dilemmas for the human race over the next century and are likely to thrive on the basis of the argument that it is merely the next stage in our evolution - terrifying yet enthralling stuff).

taking sides - 2147 vs 3012
Year 10,000 Bug - C/D?
21st Century folk - man were they stupid or what?

<< that I said would> -> that I said *I* would...

<> -> 'bout things of such an intensely personal MATTER

the 'would you like to live forever?' question is so loaded but the answer for most would be no.

See, here's where I diverge from 90ish% of the general popuation, in the context of answering this specific question at hand (I'd say the ratio of materialists to spiritualists in this ascending yuga is still 9.5 to 1, or so). Inadvertent as it may be, I'm very glad that Donna caplocked the word that she did when phrasing this question, since...

...as with everything else in life, imo, it all boils down to an identity issue.

[I'm assuming that] Stevem assumes that an inarguable case of life after death would automatically = some sort of Everlasting Tuck scenario, in which "you" would live forever. This is in stark opposition to many different branches of mystical/spiritual thought: the current "you" is but an ephermal construction, a temporary blip on the radar of eternity. It will dissolve instanteously as soon as the soul leaves the body [despite how it is developmentally significant for the soul's evolution/journey towards apotheosis.]

Because 99.99999999 % of humans currently breathing on this planet have externalized their consciousness, and are self-identifying themselves with their physical forms: their bodies. Throughout the eons, only the most hallowed saints and mystics have continually self- identified with Something Else as they internalized their consciousness [perhaps the fully realized athenas or avatars]; even your everyday mystic, or those who had to struggle in their lifetimes a bit to attain a plane of spiritual exaltation, frequently fell into corporeal error. Reference: Vishvamitra.

All of what you think the current "you" is, has been consciously influenced by events in this lifetime, despite how it is also subconsciously influenced by your previous existences (one's vasanas and samskaras play about here) - and yet it's very difficult for me to finish this sentence, keeping in mind the relativity of time (and its subsequent illusory nature on this material plane). [Past and present and future are "taking place" simultaneously of course, but if I want to finish this post I must hypothetically ignore that um, obvious, fact for the sake of, well, discussion. I'm not arguing. :) ] Once the karmic debts have been paid off, the soul departs the perishing body, and the current identity dissolves much quicker than the decomposing debris. The soul once again connects with its memory; it allegedly remained aware of all of the previous lifetimes, but only on an extremely deep subconscious - and yet also superconscious - level.

Nature ascertains spiritual amnesia (wouldn't Thom agree with me? Melissa?) when the soul finds a womb to be reborn within, or else that business of repayment of karmic debts would be a heck of a lot trickier, factoring into account the vagaries of human nature. Think about how hard it would be to love your husband if you remembered that you had murdered him in a previous lifetime and due to the inexorability/inevitability of karmic/Divine law, he was bound to murder you in this one; you would simply kill him (only perpetuating the karmic cycle rather than ceasing it) before he did you in.

Spiritual amnesia is necessary for the human drama of life to successfully continue - for a lack of a better word - harmoniously unfolding and all the karmic webs to eventually untie themselves down here; somewhat ironically, it also holds us back by not letting us transcend our severely entangled relationship issues, for many lifetimes. We are encouraged to inhabit out bodies wholeheartedly and especially in the modern/west identify with them all the time: live life fully, etc, while the eastern view has always been that the more desires you enmesh yourselves in, the deeper your karmic entaglements will bury you. Fasting, abstinence, penance, self-denial of any sort, all this is seen as being unhealthy as it counters the culture of instantaneous gratification; when health-consciousness is invoked, then it is primarily done so in the context of building a beautiful body to aid one's chances of enjoying more sensual pleasures. Dieting, working out, six-pack abs; physical luster, spiritual inertia. Which is why I almost vomited but instead laffed when two years ago Time-or-Newsweek put Christy Turlington or whoever on their cover in a lotus asana for their story on yoga, and how she summarized its aim for her as being the procuring of a "yoga butt." Condescdingly laff at us metaphysicans if you must, but do you have to turn even one of the oldest intact systems of achieving spiritual transcendence through control of the physical into another shallow work-out craze that only serves to glorify the physical instead? The irony is beyond farcical levels; all we can do is laff back sadly instead.

So the you U now know will be killed off soon with the body; you do live forever, but that is a different form of U. Doesn't make sense, but then again it does? :) Reference: my previous post on the "Is ILX run by Aquarians" thread which mentions how problematic non-linear thinking is forthe modern/western mind, if you/U/yo are reasonably hyperventilating with a logical form of disgust by now.

It all depends on the definition of "you" doesn't it ? Without diving into more philosophy here,...well I'm helpless.

Donna, as a specific body with a particular personality will not live forever. As with all beings, Donna was born, so Donna must die one day. However, Donna's soul -> who may have been living in another body called Charles, or Fabien, or Stevem, in the last lifetime, that soul is eternal. Yet if Donna had a burning desire to get in touch with her soul while still alive in her female body down here, and kill off the limited ego of "Donna" and start identifying with Something Else, if she really, truly, badly, deeply, madly wanted to, well, if her karmic account was all cleared and empty, she could do that. Enlightenment? But how many people do U know who are brave enough to commit material suicide and wholly transcend the basest instinct in humankind, the one of survival -> furthermore, how many do you know who are ready to destroy desire in the first place? Sensuality beckons.

This post reminds me of that Biblical verse about being twice born; could someone type that out for me? Since it's very interesting, that one of the Sanskrit terms for an enlightened being is also dvijya (sp?) or "twice-born" ---> once you start identifying with that Something Else inside instead of your current personality (which will usually change in a few years anyway, let's hope) and your externalized corporeal form, you die. That's why all the non-avatar "everyday" mystics who had to suffer to realize the Divine/Themselves in one lifetime, the ones who weren't born experiencing Rapture but ascended to it, they killed off their limited egos first. They died while still alive. They were re-born into their Higher Selves; twice born -> once from the ether and entering the womb, and once from leaving the sensually-defined externalized consciousness, and entering the Light. The "Born-Again" Xians misunderstood the verse, imo, when one takes into full account the implication of the Sanskrit definition of the adjective. They got it all wrong.

just being able to jump back and forth to different points in time would be the best thing

This is allegedly already possible, if I'm allowed to reference the Akashic Records on here.

i dont think any person could really handle actually living for that long

Oh no, not more referencing relativity and ultimate insignificance of Time! And I'd have to research more of my old opinions of Einstein and this thread would never end!

I need it to die now; I don't like this incoherent post really that much at all. I'm still tired fromFAPping from last nite..

I dare not use the loaded term "God" on here any longer, cumbersome as it is with the heaviest Judeo-Xian baggage.]

St. Paul, whom I'd like to think was one of the most adept of the 11 (whom I'd like to think were) Self-realized Apostles (Judas obv had mad issues), didn't he say "I die daily " ? Xian example of the twice-born; he "dies" every night to become one with Christ (christ = cosmic consciousness) -> concurrent with tantric basics.

Reference: madonna singing "I'm gonna destroy my ego" in "die another die"

For every sin I’ll have to pay
I’ve come to work, I’ve come to play
I think I’ll find another way
It’s not my time to go

I’m gonna avoid the cliché
I’m gonna suspend my senses
I'm gonna delay my pleasure
I’m gonna close my body now