How Much Do Celebrities Really Owe Their Fans, And How Much Are Fans Entitled To From Celebrities?

"You wouldn't be where YOU are if people like me didn't buy life insurance. So you owe ME pally!"

Isn't being a fan like having a crush in the sense we usually discuss it on ILE -- i.e. you project loads of stuff onto the desired object which he or she will never be able to live up to. But with fandom it's a communal crush so you get to bitch up the celeb. after with yer partners-in-sad?

I'm curious about the 'it's ok to harrass famous people' assumption which is (not here as much) I think fairly common. Accepting the split private / public image (no-one believes that celebs dress like in the magazine pictures all the time / even give their own interviews) is it the contrast between the image and reality which upsets folk: i.e. he / she is right in front of me and is so bland / average / bald or whatever. the 'real' then intrudes into and obstructs the cosy world fostered by the culture industry (just for the sake of argument) causing anger / dissatisfaction etc.??

-- alext (alext.il...), October 28th, 2003. (alext) (later)

(hoping that you can recognize which parts of the above paragraph are tongue-in-cheek and which are not)

- fans don't bother celebrities

- celebrities don't exploit fans

Of course the lines are blurred. Sending a fan letter with no expectation of reply is not 'bothering' - but it is if that fan letter contains yr used underwear. If your new album/film is shit that's not 'exploiting' - if you know it's shit maybe it is.

"Celebrities" are people, too. They have bad days, they get fed up, they feel harrassed, and who knows? Like I said, it only takes a few really bad experiences with overentitled stalkertypes to really turn them off talking to fans at all. Yes, it's rude and outrageous when "Celebs" go all rude and diva-ish and crap JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, or because *they* expect a level of treatment...

But you would not *believe* the level of entitlement that most fans - *especially* "genuine" fans have towards their idols. I haven't experienced this firsthand, but I have witnessed it more than I ever wanted to, and the experience really turned me off not just celebrity, but also fandom.

You know, I would just think that that is down to common courtesy, but people tend to forget that when confronted with the hormonal or other excitement rush of celebrity.

Pink, however, brings up another can of worms, which is the involvement of the media and the whole process by which fame and publicity is courted.

It is a common dilemma - the desire for publicity, balanced with the knowledge that once you have opened the door of publicity, it is very hard to close it again. In the age of mass media and the instant world of the internet, publicists are wise to be wary of the "all publicity is good publicity" meme.

I think that anybody who makes over, say, US$100,000/yr forfeits any civil rights they would otherwise be entitled to.

I suppose you could back that up by saying that anyone who earns that much can afford to BUY law should they need it. Though I know you're being facetious, I'd like you to just reread that and think about it.

OMIGOD IT'S KYM MARSH. HI KYM HI KYM HI KYM!

OMIGOD IT'S _________. HI ___!!!!

but with the big names it's been in a low key setting that it would have been, well, odd.

And I *DO* think that anyone has a right to complain, rich or poor, famous or not, has a right to complain if their fundamental rights are being squished on. Because where do you draw the line?

And how quickly do we go from fun to Hitler, if we start making illogical comparisons from "All rich people give up their basic rights" to "Look! Those Jewish people! They're rich!" to the Third Reich?

If you give up that right to privacy willingly, once, does that mean you give up your right to privacy for all time? Of course you don't.

Yeah I think that is why I find Louise Wener to be depressing. Nobody recognises her in the line-up of Budgens. If it was Kym Marsh or Gareth Gates - that would be a different matter altogether.

That's true. One time I saw Melanie Griffith (back when she was a celebrity) and I said too loudly, "oh, wow, there's Melanie Griffith." She noticed and rolled her eyes. I was embarassed.

Okay, celebrities in line at the food bank can complain.

Gary Coleman?

Ah, at last, someone actually continuing the conversation! Hurrah!

Thing is, how common is "Don't you know who I am?" I suspect that 90% of DYKWIA syndrome is not actually pulled by what we would think of as celebs, or else, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO ASK. DYKWIA is far more likely to be pulled by journalists with entitlement issues than actual pop stars or actors.

You shouldn't blame "celebrities" for "getting what they deserve" because some people just have no concept of what constitutes rudeness or worse.

if you're truly doing it for the love of doing it, then acting in regional theatre can be just as rewarding.

I never see those about celebrities, but I gloss over probably 75% of the threads. Okay, so what's your question here?

My stance (admittedly long buried in H.Mann facetiousness and kneejerkisms) is that celebrities aren't entitled to anything more than anyone else.
I am a recognizable face in my community, and it really bums me out sometimes. Like when I'm trying to quit smoking and some guy gets right up in my face with his cigarette dangling from his lip and wants to talk about my review of the Radiohead album 5 months ago, and what do I think about Bryan Adams playing Grey Cup and why don't I cover more jazz bands. And I BARELY make $10K (and that's Cdn).

I agree. But my point is, they aren't entitled to ANYTHING LESS than everyone else. Treating someone shittily just because they are a celebrity does not do anything to counteract the crazy out of control spiral of modern celebrity-obsession. You're just acting shittily towards a random stranger.

(Sorry, Pink, we'll have to have coffee cocktails some other time.)

Same reason SOME people think it's good to have sex with celebrities that they would otherwise not consider attractive. Because INTERACTING with CELEBRITIES makes you a CELEBRITY in a perverse way.

And what about celebrities who "wave off" their fans? Is the celebrity being rude, or are the fans having entitlement issues with regard to what
they expect from their idol? etc. etc.

Well, having recently been told at the Safeway checkout line that I look like Canadian Idol winner Ryan Malcolm, and then everybody behind me in line agreed with the check-out dude and they all were like "give us a song, then," I hastily waved them off and even bumped into one of the bagboys. "Ryan Malcolm doesn't need you," I shouted. "Ryan Malcolm doesn't need ANYBODY!"

Anyway, I am flopping a dead horse at this point, or perhaps knocking a dead art historian off a dead bicycle.

Rigor mortis will start setting in soon, don't worry.

Sorry, that just reminded me of that...

(Anyone? Richard Aiy Aiy Aiy? Where IS that from?)

Ach! This is what I look like?
I had no idea I was in such desperate need of a queer makeover. Good thing the Chris Piuma will be here soon.

I think we need to distinguish 'celebrity' from just being certain occupations (and certainly from being rich -- most of the super-rich are super-anonymous: or just move in circles far beyond our ken). I think it would be possible to be a successful / acclaimed artist, for example, and no-one beyond a small circle of cognoscenti know who you are. Indie musicians are perhaps different, since minor-celebrity (ie relative to a specific (small) community) is part of the compensation for the lack of (real) fame / financial reward etc.

So I still want to think of celebrity, and fandom, as something to do with an image that gets detached from the person to whom it belongs and promoted / circulated / discussed / gossiped about. I think there is virtually no chance that you can control this once it's 'out there', and there are definitely some occupations which come with this attached -- e.g. being a politician: you cannot simply refuse being in public, and people WILL react to the IDEA of you with no reference to your own actual existence. e.g. a labour party local council election candidate who opposes the war on terror will still get a whole heap of shit from anti-war tossers who think that simply being party politically active makes you a reasonable target for their anti-Blair venom.

As an academic, and any teacher will also experience this I guess, you are always aware that there will be an 'image' of you which will circulate, to some extent independently of anything you may actually say or do. But this doesn't have the same effects as in the case of the celeb or the politician I suppose, beyond the (some reasonable, some not) expectations that students will have of you because of your role vis-a-vis them: eg. demand meetings at their convenience and then reserve the right not to show up because they don't check their email frequently.

I will admit to being one of those people who babbled nonsense in front of Nick Rhodes that one time I met him. I just kept on saying, "I think you're awesome" or something similar, I think. But do I want to force him into a friendship with me or make him realize that I'm one of those ultimate fan types who deserves so much more than a friendly smile, a handshake, and an autograph? Nope, not at all.

OMG, the groupie stories I've heard in re: the Durans! The crazy, psychotic things some people have done in order to just try to get backstage -- all the backstabbing and double-crossing and "hey, screw you!" attitudes toward caring, patient friends/fellow fans -- it's enough to fill several seasons of a soap opera. But you know what? The people who are always going to be there are your friends and friendly fellow fans. The band will probably forget your name two months after your last contact with them.

So I figure the only thing one should expect from someone you're a fan of is a warm, friendly smile, a handshake, and an autograph. Maybe even a picture taken with them if you ask kindly enough and are on your best behavior. Once you've achieved that, that should be it. You shouldn't expect to be best friends with them or buddy-buddy or expect them to remember who you are three years down the road. As for celebrities, they should be kind but somewhat distant and certainly should not put up with foolishness or general bitchy groupieness.

And this is the Gospel According to Dee.

yeah but, suppose you are someone in a band, and the band becomes very successful and you by extension become famous and a celebrity. now, you might only have started a band to make music that you hoped people would like, but not to become a celebrity as such. But still you have celebrity-ness dumped on you, whether you like it or not. It seems a bit poor that just because you make music that is popular the media is full of shite about your lovelife, whether you like it or not.

Mind you, I am really hoping that Kate one day becomes a celebrity, as the archives of ILX will keep the tabloids in tittle tattle for years.

(Also I am not so much your guy for queer makeovers, I dress like a college English adjunct that no one likes.)

Most of the musicians I've met have been pretty cool, but there ARE a few I wouldn't mind kicking between the solar plexus.

On the other hand, I do think we are giving a lot of attention to small bits of rudeness, as compared to loads of people wanting nothing more than a brief handshake or a signature, who are dying to tell you that they adore you and you're wonderful. I suspect drugs and sex are rather more available to celebs than most of us, too, so there are some compensations got impoliteness.

When I first got online and started joining fan communities, it was like a revelation to me - that was the whole point. The *community* rather than the fandom. I was quite isolated and very shy during my actual teenage years, so it was like I got to relive my teeny-bopper impulses, meeting groups of people (often women) who shared my obsessions. The friendships that we made because of our common interests were the important thing - whether those interests were wanting to shag pop stars, or cheese and French Literature and astronomy! (Guess whose fan list that was!)

And then we started going to concerts together, following tours, etc. etc. etc. And that was a REAL eye-opener. You learn who your friends are the moment that there are only 2 backstage passes and 5 girls in the car. Like Dee says, the band will forget your name two minutes after you've met them. I didn't understand the madness and the backstabbery and everything. Backstage is a nasty place. Pop stars after a show are just tired, sweaty human beings who want a beer and bed. I just didn't get it; I was more disappointed by the behaviour of people I thought were my friends than by the pop stars in question.

It's strange, because one of the worst bad-fan experiences of my life involved an obsessive Elliott Smith fan. I wasn't that into his music, but I went along for the ride because my friend (now ex-friend, mercifully) was going through a really rough time in her life. Her behaviour got to the point where I think she was genuinely scaring ES - who seemed a fairly fragile person at the best of times - and she genuinely started putting *my* life in danger. I know it's unfair to just all fandom by the behaviour of people that you *know* are mentally ill. But I think about celebrities who have to deal with that sort of behaviour on a regular basis, and I feel sorry for them.

Yeah... this is something that really needs to be addressed.

(Though not by punching them on the nose)

Though how much of this is actually down to the bands, and how much of this is actually down to money-grubbing arsehole record labels?

"No! Fuck off!" ::strops off::

"Security! Arrest the ginger bimbo stropping out of the shop without paying!"

You make utter and complete sense with your post, btw. YES, being a fellow fan should be about relating with your other fans and cultivating friendships from that, not trying to make this deluded fantasy you've had since you were about twelve or so about turning the band into your best friends into reality, everyone else be damned.

Catty, I welcome you to the world of sanity, dear! Yes, I'm used to reading those sorts of obsessive posts. Poor John Taylor and poor Patty Palazzo (his sweet "jane of all trades" assistant), having to put up with an inordinately massive amount of weirdos who seem all too forward and... weird.

Don't reissue your shit over and over again with additional bonus tracks so I have to buy the records over and over

Hah. This sounds just like the Rio reissue debacle from a couple of years back or so. All that was different about this new version of Rio was that the tracks were remastered and the CD was an enhanced CD featuring three videos you're bound to have seen far too many times already. ("Rio", "Hungry Like the Wolf", and "Save A Prayer", fyi.) But because I strive to be as good a completist as possible, I got it anyway, and it just sits there, gathering dust. I do suspect that this would be less the fault of the band and more the fault of the stupid record company. Crapitol? Indeed.

I try to be one of the differentiating fans. I smile, I wave, I say hi, I get what I came for and then I fuck off. The JT instore I went to, the poor guy, it was like pulling teeth to get me to say anything because even though he was making with the chit-chat I was just like, okay, sign my record so I can get away from your scary fans. I did regret not taking a camera, I thought that would have been too intrusive but he was pretty accomodating. Although every once in awhile you could see him do a quick eye-rolling whenever some really annoying fans were taking their snaps.
I never tried to get on the Tiger list... there are just some levels of Duranniedom I don't need to aspire to. Although apparently now it's all about who you are on the dd.com messageboard. Sad sad sad.

Inspired by the <a href=Wire's Colin Newman in online spat with fan dustup;Wire / Colin Newman / teenage Canadian fan videos</a> farrago, which is ugly and unpleasant from just about every angle you can look at it.

What are fans of musicians entitled to? Does buying a record or a CD or a download or a gig ticket entitle you just to the goods or services in question? Does Web 2.0 era technology put artists in awkward positions regarding fans accessing their 'lives'? How much do you want from an artist beyond just the music? When does fandom become weird? Can there be two-way relationships between fans and artists?

Always convert simple html first.

Enough artists, actors, and musicians have figured out how to keep their private lives distinct enough from their professional ones that the ones who conflate it all and then complain about invasiveness get little sympathy from me.

i can see why that wd be the case but i still think artists owe fans precisely nothing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/I_owe_you_nothing.jpg

What a walk down memory lane this was. It's like everything Classic ILX in one convenient place, "chatting with J0hn D Celebrity about the Hail To The Thief leaks" and everything.

I miss Pink Panther and Dee the Lurker. I might even miss Doom-e.

Social media has just added a whole nother layer of weirdness onto the public/private life cake. I can't even.

Nothing they're not offered, yes, it oughtn't have to, blowjobs, as soon as it starts, sure.