Would London be a better place if they'd never got rid of the trams?

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There seems to be much hate for bendy buses here, but what about trams? Until 1952 London had a significant tram network, but like so many places in the UK, they got rid of them. If they'd kept them, would transport in London be better?

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and Croydon residents to thread, obv.

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I bet we'd be stuck with yucky bendy trams now. Ugh!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

It was with the demise of the sedan chair that the rot really began setting in.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

are they building new bits of the Croydon tram network, or is that it? Having been in Bordeaux earlier in the year, where they are putting back the entire tram newtwork after getting rid of it 30 years ago I know how disruptive building new trams lines can be!

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

God, no! They'd be digging up Southampton Row for the rest of time if they put the trams back in, and they've already reused the tram tunnel for a nuclear shelter command bunker or something!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

They're talking about extending the existing Tramlink to Crystal Palace / Sutton / Tooting / Mitcham town centre.

― j0e (j0e), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

And possibly up to Streatham as well.

― j0e (j0e), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

the trams seem to work well in Croydon, remarkably so in fact. i enjoyed using them in Amsterdam too - this is as far as my tram experience extends. of course i'd rather have monorails than trams for London but that would be even more unfeasible sadly.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I was travelling on the Croydon tram yesterday morning and it struck me that it is probably the only notably good thing about the whole town!

If they could somehow cross them with the life-risking hop-on/fall-off characteristics of old school London buses, then London would truly RULE.

― M Carty (mj_c), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

weird thing about transport is the insane amount of time it takes to do anything. fer example, the main shopping road in oxford has been in chaos for two and a half year with some repaving work -- it's just hard to see how it can take so long. similarly the track repairs have been going on for three years so late saturdays you'll end up bussing it from a branch station.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

having watched the repairs to Cornmarket (the street to which Enrique refers) I can say for definite why they are taking so long - it's being done by incompetent mentalist builders with the world's smallest JCB.

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

REPAIRS???!!!? IIRC the effing useless council spent a million quid of MY (and your) council tax on some poncey paving stones which took about 9 months to put down and then cracked when it got cold which they now appear to have dug up and are tarmaccing over...

also a monorail? A MONORAIL!?!

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

would be more of a shelbyville kind of thing...

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

This is what we are missing by not having Trams

http://www.starfury.demon.co.uk/uground/images/kwup1.jpg

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Here is my transport plan for london. Convert all the busses that run along oxford street to trams, merging routes like 55 and 98, so they go all the way through, or have them terminate at centrepoin/marble arch. Put the trams under a pedestrianised Oxford street, Brussels pre-metro style. Taxis can have Goodge st, Mortimer St and Wigmore st as their east west axis. Deliveries to take place at night and by special freight trams.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

If you could fully pedestrianise Oxford St, you got my vote!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Could the water slide from Leyton Leisure Lagoon be extended to the West End?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Pedestrianising oxford street my make it a pleasant experience. I avoid it like the plague.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

It's very hard for me to avoid it considering it is my local shopping high street! (Considering High Holborn is nothing but temp agencies at my end.)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Could the water slide from Leyton Leisure Lagoon be extended to the West End?

only if the proposed log flume comes with it

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

There's am underground railway for sale linking all the post office sorting depots. I reckon such a thing would be really useful to, say, an organisation that owned lots of sorting offices and needed to move stuff between them. Erm...

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

leave it Dave, and walk...away....slowly....

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

the log flume and the underground can be combined with london's electricity cabling system, and the tram-canals, and the much-needed sewage pipe-bore widening - win-win-win-win-win!!

*tears self from keyboard b4 recap of best ile thread evah wrecks entire working day*

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

If they don't want it, I do. It's the biggest train set in all the world. They should tuen it into a club, with different vibes in each depot station and you move between them on the trains.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

someone find and revive that thread, I need a good read on the tube on the way home tonight

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What this thread?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

nope, one of the really early ones where we flooded London

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

But Dave it's not a very big train set. The passenger carrying carriages they converted are very cramped indeed.

― Vicky (Vicky), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, when pedestrianising Oxford St, can we please implement the pedestrian lanes to keep the tourists out of my way? Thanks.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

kate, we should just go and buy sword sticks from James Smith and Son, then we can behead the dawdlers.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

All part of the fun Vicky. It's big enough I say. It's no London Ring Main for sure, but certainly bigger than the lego one I used to play with.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

what would be the greatest is if they convert the whole oxfort street into a GIANT HIGH SPEED TRAVELATOR.

and let you run the wrong direction up and down it like they do in the end of Gladiators.

― ken c, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i've been musing on high speed travelators with optional seating and speed lanes myself - what could be better?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

don't say walking

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Travelators are EVEN WORSE due to the number of people who think "Hurrah, I don't have to walk now" and STAND STILL while all around them angry peds who want to WALK FASTER THANKS TO MACHINES fume and try to get around them. FuXors!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

ONE WORD: escalagondalaflume

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah they'll also have to implement overtaking lanes. or just make it so fast that it really doesn't matter. with the added bonus of seeing old ladies fall over.

― ken c, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"But Dave it's not a very big train set. The passenger carrying carriages they converted are very cramped indeed."

Dwarves are the answer. As they always are.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Duke of Mantua to thread!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmm, being nearly knocked over by trams was one of the low points of living in Shefield.

― Anna (Anna), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

The Duke of Mantua was also apparently extremely fond of parrots, so I have a fear of inviting him to the board: he might take against Idiot Peter Parrotkiller.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

presumably the trams in Sheffield didn't ring a bell to alert you to their presence, Anna, the way the ones in Prague do.

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

In sheffield they creep up behind you then ring the bell second s before flattening and slicing happens.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Wasn't that amazing architect from Barcelona... oh brain fart, where is the information gone ... Gaudi! He was flattened and slicened by a tram, so those things are dangerous and should be stopped.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

quite correct

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"presumably the trams in Sheffield didn't ring a bell to alert you to their presence, Anna, the way the ones in Prague do. "

This is the only difference between these two cities.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Wasn't that amazing architect from Barcelona... oh brain fart, where is the information gone ... Gaudi! He was flattened and slicened by a tram, so those things are dangerous and should be stopped.

Yes, but they did also kill Alan Bradley, so the score sheet is still tied 1-1.

How many Manc have been done in by the met? It toots quite loudly in the city centre, and everyone just accepts them and has integrated tram-avoidance into their normal city-centre behaviour.

Prague trams are driven by mentalists. I wasn't helped by looking the wrong way as I stepped off the kerb.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, they should drive on the left like all the other countries, oh wait...

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

NO TRAM in West London, please!

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

why?

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

because logic has no place in jel's domain

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

that said, tramming the Uxbridge Road never struck me as remotely feasible - but what about the A4 link? as long as they build that Park Royal interchange for the Central Line...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

My reasons:

* The Uxbridge Road is very narrow in parts (Acton, West Ealing), I don't wanna see road widening to accomodate trams and cars. I'm cynical enough to think this is what will happen. I don't want any green land in West London to be built on.
* People won't abandon their cars to go on a tram (sad but true)
* It's bloody expensive to build
* Where does all the traffic go whilst the tracks are being laid? - You are looking at gridlock in West London.

It's all nice and 1940's to think about trams, but I can't seem them working now.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

They work very well in croydon, manchester, sheffield, etc.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

you already get gridlock in parts of West London (Ealing Common/Gunnersbury Avenue was a complete fiasco at least 2 mornings a week on my old work journey) - i'm not convinced the expenditure and inconvenience required to install a tram line would really counter that long term tho granted.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll be honest and say that I'll always be 100% agaisnt anything that I preceive as having the potential knock-on effect of road widening. I don't want that.

So, yeah, cool, I'm glad the trams work in croydon etc, were they built on existing roads? I'm not sure about this, just want to clarify?

How about a monorail?

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

why are we still so reluctant to have an integrated transport network in this country where a vehicle runs as a tram down a street as part of its route and partly as a railway? It's done that way in a lot of places. I can see how it isn't practical to integrate with the Tube as that has electrification by third rail which isn't practical down a street, but what about with the rail network which takes its power from overhead wiring?

― MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i like wide roads for some reason. i think Croydon's roads were already quite wide, but i remember there were massive roadworks all over town when i visited there a few times in the late 90s - traffic seemed normal bad tho.

Monorails are unfeasible anywhere in London but the Docklands surely.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Croydon's roads aren't that wide, and weren't widened. The tradition in Tram building in this country (in recent years) is to use existing railway alignments for portions of the route. Roads ended up being narrowed in Sheffield.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

ah, there you go, I'd have no problems if they were using railways for portions of the route, but they're not. It's basically the 207 bus route. I mean look how much traffic you get round Ealing common, Ealing Broadway, Southall Broadway. I dunno, it just doesn't sound like a good idea. There must be a better way, like extending the central line from Ealing broadway to Southall and beyond. Ealing, Acton, Sheps B, are pretty well serviced in terms of tube and train, I think. Cross-rail would be better.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

What about guided busways?

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Not convinced and the Cambridge St Ives guided busway is the worst idea ever considering the the Railway track is still in place and could be restored for about a 5th the cost of the guided busway plan. Plus can be used for other traffic particularly if extended to March (where a new Permanent way centre is being built on an old Marshalling Yard).

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(oh God, sorry about all this, why am I getting so riled up over trams?)

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

seven months pass...

Because they're great, of course! As many a train and tram expert will affirm.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus.

― The Ghost at Number Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 04:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave B mentioned guided busways - there was a suggestion a few years back to have a guided busway from the southern (Redbridge) park & ride car park in Oxford to the city centre but this has been rejected after a long consultation as it wsa felt it would cause too much environmental damage. I've never seen the point of guided busways myself.

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

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