The Meaning of Life

Delete post, please. Why do I bother? Probably just to see words in a different way.

I want to steal from him for my own fiction as much as possible! Ha ha.

We do and that's the point. We construct whole systems for the purpose of escaping death and the deeper symbolism behind sex.
Fucking we can cope with, sex we can't. We're mortally afraid of these things. Show me the apes who a) comprehend that fear the way we do b) build structures to escape it and c) talk about it on the internet. Fear is meaning. It qualifies our activities like death qualifies life.

Jimmy's right in that last post I think. I also think there's a word of warning to be uttered: don't join a religious group, don't use your insight to form a religious group. No-one can be persuaded to see it this way, they have to be dropped into it by circumstance. Persuasion is completely beside the point. Even those who say they understand usually don't - especially those who say they understand. Religion is a cavalcade of con artists and their dupes.

We don't.

We construct whole systems for the purpose of escaping death and the deeper symbolism behind sex.

You admitted that we don't. Systems and symbols disguise fucking and death.

and x-post - what the music mole said.

Fucking we can cope with, sex we can't.

It takes a strong person to cope with 'fucking' - basically that person needs love or society tells that person that they need love to continue fucking. You built a contradiction in those words, fucking is sex.

We're mortally afraid of these things. Show me the apes who a) comprehend that fear the way we do

Comprehension is fear.

b) build structures to escape it and

Fucking and death are the only real things to live. Structures are escapism.

c) talk about it on the internet. Fear is meaning. It qualifies our activities like death qualifies life.

Fear as meaning, I don't buy. Fear gives us ability to think that we are more than fucking and dying.

Life would be worthless without these things. You'd feel nothing.
You would be unable to enjoy music or literature. Feel love, joy.
These are forms of vital energy/intelligence. Without them you really would be an ape.

We do and that's the point.
We don't.

We construct whole systems for the purpose of escaping death and the deeper symbolism behind sex.

You admitted that we don't. Systems and symbols disguise fucking and death.'

Err symbolism is present as soon as intelligence is. You seem to be suggesting 'real' life is untrammelled animalistic experience. That's....unbelievable.

suicides of people you vaguely knew in a small town where you grew up.

Deepest commiserations Jimmy.
This really says it all.

I'm rambling because it struck me - I'm writing this book see, you know, its got alot about death in it - sort of a Bret Easton Ellis rewrite of Death and Denial and it threw me, if I was thrown into panic with regards of the death of a classmate I barely knew - who was I to write about death and fucking in even a vaguely comedic sort-of-way?

That's what I want to find out, Pete.

I think in re the first part of your post, something has happened to me as I've gotten older where I feel like I'm a bit spent on the amount of meaning "mileage" I can get out of enjoyment of cultural products, like that whole Woody Allen laundry list of stuff from Manhattan as the meaning of life. Not that I've stopped enjoying cultural products, I just no longer find them satisfying as the center of "meaning" in my life.

Can't really agree with niels post, which seems to me to have a strong innately conservative element ('play the game and you'll find the meaning').

Society has a way of stacking the deck so that games are fixed and can be very unpleasant indeed for some players.

but for good and bad it kinda disappears when you "observe" it from afar, which you do from time to time.

True. I also believe that thinking about this type of question doesn't do much good. Live life, don't think about. That way lies madness etc etc. My pets don't worry about this shit and if you can combine that with the human ability to override some of your negative instincts (eg fear) and appreciate some of the things they can't (eg art, nature) that's the tits.

I don't think niels was implying that there is a single "The Game" in life, just that any system of meaning you choose is analogous to a game inasmuch as it has "meaning" within the confines of its closed system.

yeah that's what I was going for

but can understand if that may sound a bit privileged, it presupposes the game is endurable, but that's what my life's been like so far

sometimes it's fun to think about the meaning of life, but when it's not fun to think about maybe it's better to try and make the question seem less relevant than to answer the question

I feel like this question might have two distinct sets of answers for a) people with kids and b) people without kids.

it's boobs. the meaning of life is boobs.

I don't think it's easy just to change the story.

I agree entirely. Seeing past your present sight is never easy. But getting a good look at the mind's mechanism at work provides the basis upon which to begin. It lets you disengage from your innate belief in your current story and opens a path to a much different perspective.

Going back to Karl's post, it seems apparent that a primary reason for his questioning state of mind is mortality. We don't go on forever. That's a hard conclusion to evade, unless you adopt one of the religious narratives of reincarnation or of a life-after-death in a spirit world.

I can't offer much that's going to alleviate the sadness of knowing that people you love will die and you will die and our pets will die and every blessed thing you see alive today will die. imo, that sadness should not be avoided. But at some point it is necessary to fully, if intellectually, realize that corporeal life is unthinkable without corporeal death and then to grasp that spiritually speaking, their unity is a mystery beyond thought or words.

Laurie Anderson's new film includes the Wittgenstein quote, "I don't know why we are here, but I'm pretty sure that it is not in order to enjoy ourselves."

At a Q&A after the screening I went to Laurie quoted her Buddhism teacher to the effect that we are here "to have a very, very good time."

Your move.

― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius)

this is p funny. in this story i picture laurie anderson as like an old miley cyrus or something

All I know for certain is that I know nothing for certain (except that Zep is the best band ever).

Some other ilx threads with relevant thoughts:

Death: Classic or Dud
Fear of Death

As to whether or not we're just here to enjoy ourselves, I'd just add that while I think everyone has to decide for themselves the meaning of their own life, judgment about that life lived is prob a different uh 'game' or whatever. Definitely not a self contained one. most definitely not

lots of great posts - i knew i was kind of making an ass out of myself in the revive but i was hoping to at least prompt substantive responses. i do like monster mash's response too, though!

KM you seem overly focused on religion? That's a bad trip IMO.
- d

I sometimes wonder if it's not the absence of meaning but the "fall" from meaning that makes people feel sad and empty -- I was raised conservative Jewish and spent a lot of time in synagogue and generally thinking about religious things, even though I started questioning them pretty early.
- man alive

yeah, i didn't mean to focus too much on religion in my post but i had a similar experience to man alive (substituting bluegrass glossolalic pentecostal for jewish) so it's kind inherently wound up in everything. i once thought i knew the meaning of life, and then when i ran away from religion, not knowing or caring about the meaning of life somehow felt like a heavy burden had been lifted. but as the realities of getting older start piling up (constant reminders of mortality, as aimless mentioned a few minutes ago), i find myself wanting to come to some sort of closure with some of the Big Questions that religions typically provide answers to. i mean, i know no one has the answers to these questions, or that the answer is probably that there is no answer. or that everyone has their own answer. but it still feels important to talk about and think through.

i was trying to sort out the ways that nihilism and absurdism overlap and differ, and thought this was a useful way of simplifying things (warning: this is just some IT security guy with a popular blog):

Existentialism is the belief that through a combination of awareness, free will, and personal responsibility, one can construct their own meaning within a world that intrinsically has none of its own.

Nihilism is the belief that not only is there no intrinsic meaning in the universe, but that it’s pointless to try to construct our own as a substitute.

Absurdism is the belief that a search for meaning is inherently in conflict with the actual lack of meaning, but that one should both accept this and simultaneously rebel against it by embracing what life has to offer.

In general, there are three ways of practically dealing with the situation.

Suicide due to life being ultimately meaningless and therefore either too boring or too painful
Embracing a meaning framework such as religion or spirituality
Acceptance of the lack of meaning, and living on in spite of it.

Perhaps he excluded it as impractical, but a lot of people opt for numbness.

Also, it's fairly limiting to suggest that a 'meaning framework' is only spiritual in nature. Family, community, art, expression, conservationism, stand-up comedy, Thai cookery, knot tying, pimping one's ride...literally anything (or combination of things) can be the focal point around which one constructs a meaningful existence.

ya take it where ya find it

I can't offer much that's going to alleviate the sadness of knowing that people you love will die and you will die and our pets will die and every blessed thing you see alive today will die. imo, that sadness should not be avoided.

This is sort of a bummer. I really really want to know how the story of humanity/Earth unfolds over the ensuing millions of years, but won't get more than another 60 yr glimpse at most. Thing that alleviates the sadness for me is I won't ever know I'm dead! "Man this dead thing SUCKS. Totally wish I was still alive, FUCK!!". Sure I'll prob know my time is winding down, but I'll prob always think "got at least one more day here". Or I'll be so decrepit I'll welcome death! Plus it's silly and pointless to detract from these 60 years by spending any part of that time bemoaning the fact that it's going to end. Like I hate the tendency to get mildly depressed about a vacation/trip having to come to an end and that fact tainting the enjoyment of its last couplefew days.

There is no such thing as hindsight when you don't exist. I'm going to enjoy myself as much as possible and strive to spend time bemoaning missed opportunities as little as possible. I certainly like creating things, so if I leave behind some form of art that I know has resonated for others than I will feel comfort that something I've made is going to last longer than I will.

i sympathize with that kind of thinking, but it's also one of the things that can lead to despair.i like creating things, too. at times i've entertained the notion that maybe that's the ultimate meaning of life, for me at least - to try to create things that others can find meaning in, and that might live on for a while after you pass away as a reminder of your existence. but god DAMN do things go south when you're not on a creative roll, or when you know you're not making anything good, or when no one cares or has a reaction. so it seems like a dead end to rely on something like art as a source of meaning when it can all fall apart so easily, and sometimes based on factors outside of your control.

Also, it's fairly limiting to suggest that a 'meaning framework' is only spiritual in nature. Family, community, art, expression, conservationism, stand-up comedy, Thai cookery, knot tying, pimping one's ride...literally anything (or combination of things) can be the focal point around which one constructs a meaningful existence.

and i think that applies to things like that, too. all of those things can fall apart (ESP. KNOT TYING!). and yeah, if they do, then one should seek out another interest or something that makes you passionate, and make that a new central part of your constructed meaning (and that's pretty much what i really do - i bounce around from interest to interest, always, on and on in 2-3 year cycles it seems). but noted normal person philip k dick had that saying about reality - that it's that which remains there even when you stop believing in it. and somehow i feel like there might be a corollary of that which applies to meaning, like there should be some source of meaning that exists and is there before you find it and stays there even after you leave. that's probably totally wrong, but it's my impulse to think that it should be there. that's where the religion thing comes in for a lot of people, i think, and although i rejected that path a long time ago i think that my restlessness comes from searching for that constant of meaning which probably isn't there.

welp looks like my hour is up so see you next week doc

Well, I was sincerely enjoying your twitch stream for one. Doing anything that has some effect on others is of significant value. I'm lucky enough to have gotten myself involved in a project that a lot of people are interested in, but I do know that it's tough to feel motivated or fulfilled when a project's not going well or isn't well received.

Just an unfolding, within an incomprehensibly greater unfolding.

Self is just a story our unconscious parts tell the conscious parts.

Gotama of the Shakyas was spot on with pragmatic approaches to alleviating our own mental discontents, as well as the suffering of other feeling unfoldings.

As I was telling my 90 year old mother a couple of days ago, now that we've been here, the universe won't ever be able to get rid of us entirely. She laughed, but she caught what I was saying.

Karl seems like your despair comes from ego, no? Ego death is a hard concept to wrap my head around but feel like every time I willfully try to at least tame it, the results are positive in many areas.

like the more thoughts you have that have "I" as the subject the more negative thoughts/emotions/actions/consequences you have

That's a truth bomb

have to wonder if Karl would have a different outlook if he had gotten that championship ring :(

The contemplation of the immensity that contains us makes us all the more aware of how puny we are. This may be wounding to our ego, but it also enlarges our soul, because the ego has been put in its place at long last. It has stopped taking up all the room.

meh, i guess if that works for you

BTW Karl you mentioned AI and I think the threat of AI is very ego-wounding! It's all about machines surpassing humanity and making us seem kind of quaint and useless.

ACCELERATIONISM

I hit a wall with this shit a few years back and ultimately came to the conclusion that, yes, ego death/suppression is key to digging yourself out. It's a bit of a blow initially to acknowledge one's own insignificance and the extent to which one's feelings about this shit really don't ultimately matter, and it isn't particularly conducive to being a functional member of society in a day-to-day sense, but it can be liberating if you set some time and space aside to let the "I" fade away now and then.

A good first step, I found, is letting go of the idea of being right. Ever, about anything.

I hope you're not a bridge builder!

Only of emotional bridges.

is there a non-Tolle book on being less I-focused (or what it's called) anyone can recommend? I'm sure The Power of Now is a good book but can't get to much with (what I experience as) his whole I AM SO SMART thing.

Another thing that I am finding fascinating in my reading about Qutb and his brand of Islam (admittedly, via a pop writer rather than in his own words or via academic work), is his desire for a kind of total system -- Islam as not just a religion but a system of governance, as something that pervades and dictates basically every aspect of life. I think there is a part of me that can relate to this desire for a complete, closed, internally consistent system, but thankfully I have other aspects of my personality that keep that in check. There is definitely an emotional component to the kind of meaning we tend to seek out.

sorry i've been shrooming for 3 to 5 hour-years now, losing sight of the ego dudes

seems foolish to try to place my wants and desires (for order, for meaning, for beauty etc) onto the universe. i guess that aspect of buddhism rings true to me ie let go of desires. just take it how it is and be content with that rather then trying to shoehorn it into what you think will make you happy and fulfilled.
also think it's folly to have your personal creative outlets dependent on other people's reactions to them for them to be worthwhile and fulfilling to you. if you enjoyed creating the thing but no one else gives a shit...you shouldn't give a shit about their non shit-giving! drumming is fun ~in the moment~ and that should be enough.

I don't think Karl or I meant to emphasize that aspect of motivation for creative outlets over others. Karl covered it a bit more thoroughly "but god DAMN do things go south when you're not on a creative roll, or when you know you're not making anything good, or when no one cares or has a reaction". It was merely one motivation. Context is important; if you're creating a video game and your motivation comes from the idea that others will enjoy it, reactions are directly relevant.

True. Feel that depending on others to give you meaning/fulfillment is a bad course tho. The process of creating the game should be fun and fulfilling in itself. Otherwise...there's that ego again. Hey everyone appreciate me and what I do or I'll be depressed. I don't see any way to consistent and long-term well-being/fulfillment with that outlook. Not saying it isn't a good feeling to be appreciated and we don't all like that. But whether someone likes the video game or not, you're still alive and well, there's no injuries or scars other than emotional ones which are due to...ego. I dunno, I guess I'm not big on needing a creative outlet to begin with, for well-being to be dependent on that. To be alive and fascinated by so many things and interacting with the world and people and animals and tacos, roof over head, food in belly, having "freedom", a better standard of living than 99.9% of people who ever existed...who am I to demand more than that out of life.

Like if getting in creative slump makes things go south...seems like the better solution would be to decouple creativity from "going south", rather than trying to "improve" yourself so that you're always on a creative roll. even the greatest creative geniuses in history had lulls or just lost their mojo altogether.

not trying to criticize anyone...just hate hearing/seeing people beat themselves up over so many things. /stuart smalley

is there a non-Tolle book on being less I-focused (or what it's called) anyone can recommend? I'm sure The Power of Now is a good book but can't get to much with (what I experience as) his whole I AM SO SMART thing.

Have you heard of this thing called Buddhism?

Is that the one with Buddha?

on being less I-focused

Download every Alan Watts "dharma talk" you can find. I have around 120 hrs from a torrent binge a few months ago.

One thing I was reminded of today -- don't completely deprive yourself of pleasures, because the mind starts to go to dark places, at least mine does

Listening to Watts is a good move. For every nine things where you're like, uh yeah figured that out when I was a teenager dude, he'll throw in a tenth thing that swings your brain all the way around.

Cool, will check it out.

I've heard abt Buddhism, yes, also taken part in a yoga/meditation retreat where I had the opportunity to speak w a zen "master", she was actually p cool - doing some synchretistic stuff though so wasn't orthodox Buddhist. Maybe should seek out more, any good reading advice?