Have you sold out?

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Compared to the opinions and views you held a couple of years ago (let's say, ten), are you now a sell-out who has betrayed your ideals for a quick buck or a comfortable life?

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to my knowledge!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I am waiting for someone to post something about how their career in Morketing is in fact a continuation of their time with the Socialist Workers.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

NANU NANU

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

If I had, I'd have more money. There's still time for me to go into corporate marketing though.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Still got plenty in stock.

I was never worried about selling out so its kinda ironic that actually I might be considered as someone who - working for a charity - hasn't.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Considering what I do is fairly shallow it's also kinda ironic that I am now in masses of debt because I have been determined not to give up and sell out. Oh well.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I would so sell out given the chance. Corporate America, are you ready for your blowjob?

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

No, but then again there's no such thing ebcause it's an evil, nasty, capitalist concept designed to keep down the lower-middle classes and working classes.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i've slightly sold out recently, in taking a secondment for the evil council. but i can rationalise it because the project is all about improving the relationship between the evil council and the voluntary sector, and this way hopefully i can 'make change from inside'

yeah right.

otherwise, not so much. otherwise i'd be a highly paid lawyer by now.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I am in the process of becoming a parasite, a 10 percenter. Does this mean I've sold out? It doesn't seem it to me, but I know others view agents as a Bad Thing.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think old dodgy knee up there has ever been more OTM. A lotof the people who seem to go on about selling out so much, are the ones who can afford not to sell out in the first place too.

― chris (chris), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

not well enough since i'm going to have to end up working at the grocery store sooner or later

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"old dodgy knee"?!

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

it's my pet name for you

― chris (chris), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm touched. Not in my bathing-suit area, mind.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it an old fashioned bathing suit? A bathing machine, if you will?

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Get your hands out of your pockets, Barry.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

What's the evil council?

Yeah I guess I've sold out in the sense that I'm doing something that I'm not enjoying just because it's comfortable (but then aren't most people in this situation?). Anyway I'm resigning in two months, so I'll soon be able to claim back my dignity...

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, does selling your soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for countless fame and fortune count as "selling out"?

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Only if you can play the best blues in the world now.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

the evil council is the local council in our borough that decided they really hate the voluntary sector and so they'd be so nice and sell all our buildings AND cut most of our grants, with little or no notice.

sadly, this won't give them away, since that seems to be the trend in local councils.

(although the leader of ours is especially bad. he is a mean mean man that looks like a strange combination of a monkey and a pig!)

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

No, not yet.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm in the pay of Rupert Murdoch.

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I work for a big evil multi-national. But not particularly hard.

― robster (robster), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Right on!

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't have any ideals to betray in the first place.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's see...worked for the Viacom corporate monolith for 7 years. A few years later, employed at a big law firm and considering law school. Yeah, I'd say sold out years ago. So why am I still poor? Does that still make it "selling out" if I'm getting bottom dollar for my efforts?

― mike a, Friday, 20 February 2004 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

No, it makes you a schmuck.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

There you go.

― mike a, Friday, 20 February 2004 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Glad to be of service.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I sold out of lamb chops once at the restaurant I used to work at.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I have sold out in that I am becoming a permanent member of staff doing something that's not really my bag, because it offers security and some money. However, I don't know whether it counts because it's within the NHS and I'm helping the people who take useful pictures of BRANES and that. Conversely, not selling out would involve working in magazine publishing, which is dead shallow innit. Make of this what you will.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Dunno, Liz. I was in the NHS and it was terrible -- wasteful, deceitful, everything. I was in the bureacracy, natch. They also pay some people up to like 80 grand, so I've heard, so it can't be all that socialist.
Magazine industry is not necessarily shallw, but it is poorly paid (well, depends on the mags I guess). I haven't sold out, ever. But as of next Thursday I am unemployed, so... erm, I'd like to sell out.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I am in the process of selling out--does switching from studying pure math to engineering count? I'm really excited by this idea of making lots of money and buying a house in the burbs and playing golf and sneering at the people cutting my lawn. It seems a lot more fun than this urban boho bullshit.

― adam (adam), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm honestly glad to hear that the NHS pay competitive wages, otherwise it'd be run by a bunch of even more incompetent crooks than it is now.

I am also really excited about making pots of cash - if I become a successful agent it could actually happen. Woohoo!

(p.s. I have been in this assistant's role for 4 weeks. I am getting ahead of myself somewhat)

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

'competitive wages' my fuc. it's ludicrous. no-one *earns* that much.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

When I was 18 in high school my friends and I got suspended for subverting the morning morality curriculum (alabama is stupid) with a series of our own lessons, mainly a week's worth of pages about "herd instinct" which some of the teachers ACTUALLY LED DISCUSSIONS ON IN CLASS.

When I was 20 and in college I put a referendum on the ballot to dissolve the Student Government Association and it nearly passed. (I also ran for SGA President every year I was there just so I could put up flyers making fun of campus life and make with the sarcasm during candidate debates).

Then I dropped out of school, joined the military, went to work in intelligence, finished up my four years and then got this job with a big defense contractor working in the J. Edgar Hoover building.

What do I win?

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 February 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

What was wrong with the SGA? I think selling out is personal -- it's not on to say 'you sold out', in any case it lays too much stress on individual determination, um, maaan.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

no-one *earns* that much.

I have a friend who earns more. If you're in a company with a throughput of (say) a million, and you make it more efficient by 10%, how have you not earned a hundred thousand?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Because no individual 'makes something more efficient', obviously.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess I see selling out as dropping what you really care about an believe in. Not selling out, however, is different to keeping it real. Keeping it real is a load of old bollocks and possibly closer to what Nick said up thread about keeping people in their place. If i wanted to keep it real I'd still be living in Wolverhampton and working for a car hire firm or something.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're the best at something you'll earn higher than everyone else. At the top it's effectively an auction for the services of these individuals - hence footballer wages, or CEO bonuses. It's a fact of life.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I so thought this was going to be an N. thread.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

This is horseshit. Once you're at that level it's a close, cosy place, and ability no longer has anything to do with appointments. I am 'the best' at misleading the public, my old manager could say. We-ell.... It's a fact of capitalism, sure: but the idea that top NHS managers are by a ration of their income 'better at their jobs' than any of their staff is insane. Footballers is slightly different.

Anna OTM, anyway, not selling out can be shit.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Because no individual 'makes something more efficient', obviously.

Go on.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, what operations have they performed? For whose benefit? Who 'owns' the company? Here isn't the place to go ranting about socialism, but this is basic stuff.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The way CEO bonuses and salaries operate is a rather complex business, and the similarity to a genuine free market/auction situation is at best superficial. That doesn't stop the directors getting sky-high remuneration defending it in those terms mind.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, what operations have they performed? For whose benefit? Who 'owns' the company?

WTF has this to do with anything? They might have made the company 10% more efficient at turning dead African babies into Nes-Quik, it doesn't mean they haven't made a difference.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay! Profit = surplus money EARNED BY the employees as a collectivity.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 49 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I'm not sure I'd sabotage it now.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha - the thing is, if you say in answer to a 'why do you want this job?' question, 'for the money' they'd probably never hire you.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

N: how come your refusal to accept the possibility of change in your outlook has made you seem principled and glamorous, and mine has made me seem narrow-minded, ignorant and hopelessly hidebound?

Only to stupid fuckers, obviously. But there are so many of them.

(I liked your replies, thanks.)

― the bellefox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm the opposite of every guy you've ever met.

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Cos his one-letter name adds a level of mystery, whereas 'the bellefox' makes you sound like a fat woman in suspenders running a Brighton B&B.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm the opposite of every guy you've ever met.

You're a girl?

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know the answer to that question, pinefox. Perhaps it has something to do with your choice ot tenets or they way in which you promote them.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

you're pretty narrow-minded, sick.

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Ponce.

For a while in 1996 I had a high-paying temp job at Merrill Lynch designing investors reports, and at the end of my temp contract they offered me a permanent position, the promise of lots of foreign travel, career prospects and a very attractive salary. I ended up taking a big pay cut and going to work for the P*etry Society instead. I don't cite this out of any idealistic grandstanding - it seemed, like N. suggested earlier, a very pragmatic decision. The trade-off between pay and day-to-day happiness made the decision for me. None of the perks would make up for the fact that work seemed meaningless, the culture of the place was intolerable to me, and I woke up feeling sick every morning.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

N.B. I'm not sure I accept your premise.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(That "ponce" was, of course, directed at N. rather than RJG who is extremely heterosexual.)

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

For a girl.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

N: Which one?

Crikey, this is getting exciting.

― the b&bfox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't think of anything funny to type.

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Doesn't normally stop you.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Rubbish.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I've read this thread now, RJG.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a Saturday. I am at work. I am not painting. Of course, I've sold out!

― dean! (deangulberry), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking sides: a good job of work Vs selling out? And how does one tell the difference? Dogmatically or pragmatically?

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry pf - the premise that I seem principled and glamorous while you seem narrow-minded and ignorant.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

what do you think, cozen?

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, it's definitely good. it has a promising end.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't like the bit with nick southall.

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Neither did I.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

did you mean this, N.: I have a personality hang-up based around a loathing of fluidity of personality.

and if you did, do you only apply this to thinking about yourself?

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

He only thinks about himself!

― the firefox, Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

1)Yes, and 2) no. I instantly think less of people of they talk about their younger self as something foreign and ha ha what was I like.

But I was overstating things for effect, yes. If someone genuinely grows as a person (rather than just laughing at an old haircut or music taste of theirs) then I am impressed. Shedding skin as part of their own journey, unrelated to need for approval or the way the wind is blowing. Kind of rare, though.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course there are lots of variables when considering which stocks to invest in, but certainly the appointment of a shit-hot CEO or whatever can and does have a positive effect on the share price. If the company is worth billions, such an action could add 8 or 9 figures to its market value. That's how it is. And that's before any successes that the company may have under their new boss.

― Markelby (Mark C), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm being slow again and muddled by the words I think. and I'm dwelling. I shouldn't dwell. should I dwell? no I shouldn't. what I was thinking: 'fluidity of personality' /= growth of character (which is what you seem to be talking about in your last post). I love personality's fluidity (whatever this could mean) (and it can mean things); I don't care too much for, nor worry about, growth of character. but yeah.

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

no?

― the firefox, Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Appointment of CEO affects share price yeah, but a market guessing that it will make a positive impact on company performance doesn't mean the market is right (unless you're just taking the short term effect on share price itself to be 'performance', in which case the whole thing gets a bit reflexive). But yeah, I see your point.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually all this talk of shares illustrates another personal point about selling out. A few years ago I knew people who would still think it was weird and not right to invest in shares, and many of those people have now got used to the idea, at least in terms of having an equity-based ISA, because that's been sold as a cosy, sensible banking product removed from the unpalatable world of city bother boys in red braces. I've never had an issue with having shares, my reasoning being that if you just put your money in a bank, the bank just ends up investing lots of it in shares itself and keeps most of the profit. Risk aversion is fine, but unless you're going to have no pension and keep any savings under your mattress, it seems senseless to actually disapprove of investment in the stock market per se. So something like that would never be 'selling out' to me, even if others might say to themselves "Look at me - I never thought I'd end up buying shares when I was an idealistic 18 year old."

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

As the PF suggests a long way above, the question "Have you failed?" (on your own terms) is a much more interesting question than "Have you sold out?". Selling out implies such a lazy, passive notion of innate integrity.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree it is a truer question, but unpicking the implications in this one makes it possibly more productive as a thread.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

At what age [did you]/[do you expect to] give up on your dreams?

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"Golden parachutes" are not the fault of the people who receive them.

Dan, most executives actually negotiate for their salaries and/or compensation for leaving a company with a board, so in a sense you could say that the "fault" does lie with them to an extent.

― hstencil, Monday, 23 February 2004 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Stencil is right. Many of these executives' 'exit strategies' are negotiated before they even enter a company, so even if the exec fails at his or her objective, the damage to them is at best minimal, at worst 'whee lookie, I can buy a house in the Hamptons with this settlement'.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 23 February 2004 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Extension of democracy, yes. It is not a good idea in a large company. Which is what Enrique was originally talking about, recent attmpts to claim it was entirely about the NHS to the contrary.

I am amused that disdain for me has united Mark and Enrique, but not on the whole bothered.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 23 February 2004 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Oddly I run a "democratic" business, it being owned by all of its members. Extension of this in reality generally means very long meetings regarding stocking coca-cola and/or Nestle products. In the end someone has to make decisions about lines and pricing policy, opening hours, wages which all require detailed examination of the balance sheets and knowledge of how the business works. Whilst this information is availible for all of our members, so far they are happy to delegate responsibility to me for making this decisions.

How I would feel if they decided to star making decisions which severely jeapordise our trading I am not sure - it has never happened. At the same time I get paid significantly less that I would imagine I would be in the private sector for my expertise. But then eventually, I only assume delegated responsibility - not actual responsibility. Should I get profit related pay if it would incentivize my decisions to increase profit for the charity? I am thinking about it (note - I, the person who does the books and hence knows how much money extra I would get, is thinking of it. Conflict of interest perhaps. But like I say, no-one else is going to do it for me).

― Pete (Pete), Monday, 23 February 2004 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Trying to catch up here! Markelby and JtM talking a lot of sense on this thread.

The golden parachute is not really that important - it's just a part of virtually every CEO's package. That fact that ultimately they don't *suffer* financially through bad performance doesn't alter the fact that they do greatly influence performance. Obv if you or I had just a couple of years of these guys salaries and options we'd probably say 'hey great, I can pack it in now and do something I really like for the rest of my life'. What you have to realise is that they're brutally competitive and have such massive, massive egos that they'll do anything to try and stay in power, in the thick of it..

I'm not really sure that I understand 'selling out' from an external perspective - i.e. where you could say 'he's/she's sold out' and clearly understand what decisions that person has made abt the way they live. I earn pretty good money, doing something that I know damn well is worthless (corporate mktg)*in the big scheme of things* (ugh - sorry abt this cliche) and given that I live in a v. nice house in a very expensive area it would be very easy to say that I had sold out if you didn't know me better. But I used to earn BIG money doing a much more senior job at the same place and I jacked it in. Now *that* was selling out, by my definition (which is the only one that counts!). I had NO free time, lived out of a suitcase, never saw my family or friends and was permanently stressed and ill. I did it for 3 years until I was a mental and physical wreck. Several of my peers thrived on it and moved onward and upwards to stratospheric levels - I wouldn't want to be them for the world. Now, apart from the odd busy stretch, I can organize my work as I wish, do it at home if I like and I have time to take the kids to school, organize *fun* stuff around work and not the other way around. Tomorrow I'll leave early to get to a band rehearsal and no bugger will stop me! Or I might not go in.
I have had several offers to go back to the old type of job and I wouldn't even consider it. In fact I'd like to reduce the amount that I work, and maybe try and and do something *useful* for other people with the extra time saved. I do feel slightly guilty about the utter worthlessness of my job, you see.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 23 February 2004 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Suzy, hstencil: "It takes two to tango" to thread.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 23 February 2004 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

What is it you do, Dr C, if that's not rude to ask?

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Monday, 23 February 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

doing something that I know damn well is worthless (corporate mktg)

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 23 February 2004 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"sell-out" and "a quick buck" aren't quite aything i'm able to associate with my life.
as for "comfortable life" ...depends wot one's standards are, obviously.

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 23 February 2004 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see what's wrong with making *a quick buck*.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 23 February 2004 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

doctor, if you have to ask...

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 23 February 2004 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan, that was exactly my point.

― hstencil, Monday, 23 February 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

No, go on....

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 23 February 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yay we agree!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 23 February 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

You, Andrew, are the imbecile because you have no substance whatsoever to your argument and seem to have some badly-formed "for the workers" mentality.

Er, are you sure you're not confusing me with Enrique here? I'm taking the middle road between you: clearly one person can make enough difference that it is justifiable, but equally clearly that's not the only reason why CEO's are paid that much (your remark about percieved effectiveness admits as much). Further enquiries to Private Eye.

As regards Dan's point about the Golden Handshakes/Parachutes, I agree that it's neither that they're demanding them or that they're being offred them, but something in the middle. If boards across the country/the world decided tomorrow that thee going wage for CEOs should be half of what it is, the CEOs couldn't do much about it, but what is the average board composed of? CEOs.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 23 February 2004 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

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