great players for poor teams

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as a spin-off from the beckham thread - what great players have spent large spells at poor sides? why did they do it? how did it affect their reputation?

well?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

litmanen - finland
le tissier - southampton
best - n.ireland
zahovic - slovenia

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Le Tissier is a good example... I'm still not convinced that he was really that great tho.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Weah - Liberia. European player of the year. Demi-god in Monrovia. Doesn't seem to have harmed him much.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Le Tiss was a genius. I'm not sure about Zahovic, especially when thinking of his club performances (where he tends to get turfed out every two years for being a mardy bugger)

D, are you really a rugby fan on the wind-up?

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Me a rugby fan? Why don't you just accuse me of being a child molester and have done with it.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

STEVE BULL

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Di Canio owns this thread really

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Robbie Keane, Jermaine Defoe, Jurgen Klinsmann, David Ginola, Fredi Kanoute and Teddy Sheringham to thread ;)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

ha yeah! he has a stand named after him, doesn't he?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

obv that was a ref. to bull...

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Also Andrei Shevchenko - Ukraine.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

no you were right first time, Bully wins I think, or at least a tie with Le God.

I'm not sure that national sides should count in this to be honest though.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

why not?

i don't necessarily mean players that played in poor teams through choice.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

but he used to play for Celtic! (he does rather own it now though).
(xpost to Stevem)

I was going to suggest Kevin McAllister of Falkirk. I will never as long as I live understand why he never got signed by a much bigger team and allow to rack up a ton of Scotland caps. Brilliant player, he was.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Agreed, purposely playing for shite club sides is more interesting

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

it's for egotistical sadists

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure Kilian, maybe in the way that it's not their choice to be playing for a weaker side so they haven't been able to affect it. Take George Weah - he was the biggest fish in the tiny pond of Liberia, but at club level he shone for Milan, scoring one of thebest goals ever seen. Mind you , he did go on to Man City....

Le Tiss on the other hand, could ghave gone to Chelsea and most likely various others, and Wolves weren't short on offers for Bully, but they stayed put (through loyalty or laziness is another question)

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Depends what you call a poor side, but Julen Guerrero apparently could have gone to Real Madrid for big money but decided to stay at Athletic Bilbao out of - LOYALTY! Later on he had some kind of falling out with them over his less skilful brother, Felix. I don't know what he's doing now, but he was 'on the bench' a lot for a while. Does/did all the usual things like big sponsorship deals, but at a local level. Will be fondly remembered for keeping the Glenn Hoddle haircut alive.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

le tiss = lazy
bull = loyal

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Sam Allardyce is doing sterling work to make sure this list continues to lenghten, by the way.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course lots of great players for poor teams become poor players for great teams - WHY OH WHY?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

he came off the bench when we were there. Probably the same goes for Etxeberria?

x-post to mr miller

and another side question, truly great teams with a rotten player?

Brazil 70's keeper? Was his name Felix?

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:32 (twenty-one years ago)

west ham had lots of good (though prob. not great) players in their relegation season!!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

and another side question, truly great teams with a rotten player?

= france 98 team's succession of dodgy strikers (ok some of them were young players who later became great) - so i say guivarch.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Diomede!!! which is now the French slang for a mascot ha ha ha

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd forgotten he existed. Rangers signed him and he hardly ever got a game that I recall. (guiv'arch, that is - x post)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

re West Ham: they did kilian but they were pretty much all all severely off-form (Defoe excepted)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Guivarch! OTM!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:37 (twenty-one years ago)

How about Potentially Great Players Who Never Fulfilled Early Promise?

David Hirst. Lee Sharpe. Stan Collymore.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Claudio Caniggia at Dundee! Fabrizio Ravanelli at Dundee! Chris Waddle at Falkirk! Franck Sauzee at Hibs!

Career-ending paypacket-boosting pre-retirals always throw up some crackers like this...

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:41 (twenty-one years ago)

asprilla at darlington!!! (nearly but not quite - they couldn't afford his wages surprisingly enough)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Frank de Boer at Rangers! No hold on, that's shite player in shite team.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Over-the-hill players don't count, especially when they're Ravanelli.

Nick - a mate of mine bought a 1993-94 Panini Premiership sticker album to the pub the other week - the Future Stars page is madness... no Scholes, Beckham etc... and the most successful player on the page is NEIL SHIPPERLEY!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:45 (twenty-one years ago)

who else was on it matt?!!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Brian Laudrup's Rangers career! Ditto Paul Gascoigne!

Pierre van Hooijdonk/Mark Viduka etc when Celtic were shit!

Why am I putting exclamation marks all over the place!?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)

DARREN CASKEY!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Being on the sticker album page, not a great player for poor team or otherwise.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)

ha ha, you might as well name every Spurs player from the last 10 years

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Over-the-hill players don't count, especially when they're Ravanelli

That only really discounts Ravanelli from my list above, as the rest were still great players in the otherwise rank-rotten teams they joined. Old /= shit.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

In his first spell at the riverside, Juninho. At the moment, Samuel Eto'o.

― Jonnie, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Le Sulk at Man City also.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that the same Brian Laudrup and Rangers side that got to the European Cup semi-final?

Danny Shittu. When he isn't injured.

― jerichoharris, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"This page will give you an in depth insite into the skills of Darren Caskey."

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Valley/8882/

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:56 (twenty-one years ago)

But Laudrup was there for years. They weren't getting to European semis all the time you know. And, let's face it, it was only Laudrup who stopped them being a poor team.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 10:58 (twenty-one years ago)

... I don't think that's true at all, they had a pretty good team, tho it pains me to admit it.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

This is an even better website. It also has vital information about Darren Caskey. http://www.htfc-world.com/

― jerichoharris, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry you have to go to the reports bit and look under the report for the notts county game 2002/3.

― jerichoharris, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

A quick google gives us the Rangers 97/98 squad. Laudrup and Gascoigne shine like stars alongside the likes of Stale Stensaas and Gordan "monkeyboy" Petric. I'd forgotten half of those people existed, and I'm now going to have nightmares about Sergio Porrini.

Andy Goram
Alex Cleland
David Robertson
Gordan Petric
Alan McLaren
Joachim Bjorkland
Stuart McCall
Erik Bo Andersen
Ian Ferguson
Charlie Miller
Jorg Albertz
Craig Moore
Paul Gascoigne
Derek McInnes
Gordon Durie
Brian Laudrup
Sebastian Rozental
Steven Wright
Jonas Thern
Lorenzo Amoruso
Sergio Porrini
Staale Stensaas

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Neil Shipperly? Darren Caskey? What big-eared madness is this?!

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 21 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I can't tell at which point in Dave B's last point he switches from taking the piss to being serious.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

last post, I meant.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I was just thinking that.

(Mike, I think it's a bit of both with McFadden at Everton. He won't stand out alongside a bunch of semi-decent players, but in the last few Scotland matches against the bunch of numpties that Vogts thinks can pass for an international team, he's been head and shoulders above everyone else)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

The first statement is a piss take. Mostly.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

everyone mentioning Gerrard is on my list

To those who diss the weah goal - let's see you, or even most premiership players attempt it?

And the Maradona goal? He should have been chopped down on the edge of the box, Trevor Stephen (iirc) had the chance to do it and he bottled it, pulled out. I can still hear my grandad slagging him to high heaven for it

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I read an interview with Bobby Robson where he blames the fact that Terry Fenwick had been booked eralier - 'he'd have dropped him if he hadn't' which is an nice reminder of the virtues, such as they are, or English defending.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Terry Fenwick. Playing for England. In the World Cup. Against Maradona. CLASSIC!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Terry Fenwick, that was it, he should have chopped him and got sent off, it wouldn't have been much of a loss, and he may have injured maradona.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Chris I love you.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, but the downside of this is that John Barnes wouldn't have been the sub, and so we'd never had equalised and also never nearly scored if that stupid goalhanging big eared bastard hadn't missed a sitter from 1 inch.

actually, it was one of the most amazing pieces of defending I've ever seen

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

one of the biggest disappointments of the stag is that Goikotxea's (did I spell that right PJ?) boot that he broke Maradona's ankle with and they had coated with gold was no longer in the Athletic Bilbao museum.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Andoni Goicochea is his name, apparently. According to The Top 50 Fouls Of All Time, he keeps the boot in his own house.

Apparently the tackle was so bad it almost detached Maradona's foot, and was subsequently dubbed a Basque separatist movement.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

it is basque, you've put an x in, it can't be that wrong ;)

also mr southall says:

I think Maradonna's first in 86 against us is better,

um, wasn't the first the "hand of god" or is that what you meant?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

matt, are you some sort of castillian?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:46 (twenty-one years ago)

that may be the Castillian spelling, there's not enough random Ks and Xs in there ;o)

He was great "the butcher of Bilbao"

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:46 (twenty-one years ago)

You've been confused by the Spanish pronunciation - he actually broke Maradona's uncle (the legendary Chico '10 bellies' Blanco).

I promise I won't make any more terrible jokes like that, even if I think of a really good juan.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

17) Cameroon team v Argentina, 1990 : A team effort - Caniggia avoids one hospital tackle, only to be sent flying by a second two-footed challenge. Yes, it wasn't just in the last World Cup that Cameroon earned their 'African Uruguay' tag.

oh i remember that game - a true thing of beauty

That page is ace

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha - look at Number 50!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Souness is only in it twice??!!??!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

a crying shame

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

if it really was the 50 worst of all time then i would've thought it would be all Latin-based

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

38) Neil Ruddock v Manchester United, 1996 : A reserve game, but no reserve in Ruddock's slide from four yards out that ended with Cole four feet in the air with his leg broken, and then landing so badly on the other one that he broke part of that as well.

I would so like to see this

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely Souness' masterful performance against Iceland, where the only balls he could control were those attached to Siggi Johnsson's groin, should be in there.

Also Neil Simpson's almost-ending of Ian Durrant's career. That Romanian bloke's assault on John Kennedy the other night could be a new contender also.

If eligible, John Hartson kicking Eyal Berkovic's head in during training is a true classic also.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Carsmile; you are, of course, correct. The weaving, mazy dribble was the second, wasn't. You have to excuse me; I was only 7.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Best tackle ever - caniggia being poleaxed by two Cameroon players was magnificent - Caniggia hurdles one murderous challenge; he's off balance. Second awful challenge is also evaded, but he's now almost running horizontally now. His momentum is all forwards and now he's hit by two players. It makes him somersault, and Massing's boot goes about 20 yards away.

Also in 1974, a Brazilian rugby tackles Cruyff in their second round match which was effectively the semi-final; the commentator (hugh Johns) says 'he might get a booking for that'.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Dale Murphy, '83 Braves

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Maik Taylor for Northern Ireland.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Massing trying to plead with the ref that he lost his boot and therefore should not be sent off (well, that's what it looked like to me) was a fantastic moment. The ref, quite rightly, judged that it had nothing whatsoever to do with him twatting Caniggia.

― Jonnie, Tuesday, 6 April 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

le tissier was not a 'genius' otherwise he wouldn't have been so shit when he was playing for england. dada otm.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

No, he was, otherwise Southampton would probably be in the Conference by now. Marsden wouldn't even have looked at us twice...

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

How about George Best for Northern Ireland?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

That's kind of how we got here, wasn't it?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

He was one of the first mentioned.

Giggs for late-90's Wales.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

He really was the reason we got here!

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually - Ronnie Ekelund, Southampton 94-95.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

click here - david beckham - c or d -for the discussion that prompted this thread.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Paul Jones, more or less everyone he's ever played for

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

(n.b. with the exception of the past two or three years till he went back to Wolves)

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, and Dean Richards before he went to Tottenham, at which point he suddenly fell off.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Doh! That'll teach me not to read lowercase posts on principle!

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Quite often in testimonials, good players make guest appearances for teams like Gresley Rovers (Bryan Robson, I think). Or was it Burton?

This is a very good point, I think.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Le Tiss not a genius? Have you ever watched any of his goals? his range of passing?

He never got a proper chance for England, or when he was he was stuck out on the wing and told to defend - not his strong point admittedl;y, but when given the role of standing off one or two strikers, finding them with clever passes or better still using them as decoys to give him a yard to smack the ball past an incredulous keeper? bloody marvellous.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I wuv Matt le Tissier. He nearly got married to Marilyn off Home and Away, you know.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

he did get married to her! they met while doing panto at the playhouse! They have since split up :o(

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I did see his goals and he had the skills but I think if he really was a 'genius' he would've done much better than he did at international level, or he would have gotten a bigger run in the team.

x-post: ok he's a genius :)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

apparently Glenn Hoddle "never fancied him" and that's why he never got picked or got played out of position. I reckon it's because he always showed him up in training.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I have now realised that Kevin McAllister played for Chelsea (I knew this, I think, because he was in the Masters tournament that was on Sky at Christmas), but still...he was the Matt le Tissier of Falkirk, and I wuv him too.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Cabbage is right re Le Tiss - international managers not giving him a proper go in a role that suits him says nothing about his actual quality. In those early fantasy football days, the players that racked up the big points were always attacking players at the biggest clubs, plus Le Tiss surrounded by third-raters at Southampton. I will never forget that season when he won goal of the month a couple of times in a row with really dazzling goals, then Shearer got a great one for Blackburn, and Matt's old mate Tim Flowers phoned him up to say that "You're not getting goal of the season Matt, Alan's just sown that up." MLT apparently said "I'll just have to score a better one past you on Saturday then," and he proceeded to do exactly that and went on to win the award. That's genius.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 19:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Hoddle actually seemed to rate him more than Venables, Wilko and Keegan (tho MLT was out of the frame anyway by the time the latter took charge of Enaldn)...i was very annoyed at El Tel for ignoring Le Tiss at his peak, much like Taylor ignored Waddle's fantastic '91-'93 seasons.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

if MLT is a genius then he's possibly one of the most frustratingly reticent and 'unfinished' ones that ever lived...the Jackson Pollack of the beautiful game, or something (Di Canio is Warhol)

worst analogy ever obv.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 6 April 2004 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

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