Grad school provides an exciting new road to poverty

(I'll just say that my luckiest break educationally was the four-year-fellowship I had in grad school that covered all my costs and meant that leaving was not accompanied by loans from hell.)

psot i am sorry mark i am usally good typer but i canot tonite too much extracurricular activity.

The most repellent part of the whole set-up was the continuous ball-busting that went on from a good chunk of the faculty. Saying 'I quit' was the only thing that kept me from a life of misery and embitterment.

I don't know, maybe it's cause I go to a big research school but it seems like the unuseful subjects are kind've in the minority, right? I hear you can get an engineering PhD in 2 years...

Dan, the admissions office of practically every grad school I thought about applying to (and this was almost ten years ago) included a photocopy of the SAME article from the Times or something, saying basically that the demographics of tenured professors would result in a mass wave of retirements, creating loads of vacant positions. Mind you I didn't buy that bullshit, but I thought grad school would be a fine way to kill five years or so living in one fun city or another, and I figured I had a decent shot at a non-adjunct job at the end of it, if I worked hard and played by the rules. I bet some suckers were taken in by the retirement argument. Nowadays, of course, everybody knows that you ain't gonna get a job at the end of it, so what's important is to be independently wealthy or develop a taste for cockroaches and Schlitz.

Not particularly true and quite naive, Dan, if I may be allowed to say so.. I've heard of several grad school horror stories from professionals in fields like the sciences, medicine, and law where tales of unemployment and debt timebombs ring just as true as in the humanities front.

OTM, Ally. Tis exactly what I'm sweating through now, as an actual cash flow is currently a memory. Considering that finding a workable grant is today's version of the Holy Grail*, you have to be persistent as hell to find one. That, or kiss up to that fabulously rich relative so they can finance you.

*Depending on when you finished your BS or BA. The limit for many scholarships is 2 yrs after graduation.

1. keeps you in the comfy confines of academia
2. provides excellent opportunities to teach at community college
3. allows people to do alot of work in a subject they actually like
4. doesnt necessarily result in any spectacular career tracks that will pay off all of your debts

2 of the 4 are alright. but in my mind, none of it is worth the risk of getting into debt and finding a way to pay it off once youre finally out of school.

Isn't that part of the reason that you go to grad school though: to actually do something (for a year or whatever) that you like---unlike your Bachelors (where you either spend the four years getting pissed or trying to survive major workloads til you can graduate)?

Mary, analytic philosophy.

Nichole, I don't get the whole thing about grad school as a way of "avoiding entering the real world." Grad school was much harder and more stressful than "real world" jobs I have had since then. That said, you can't just ask your boss for an incomplete... but if you were the kind of undergrad who coasted through by juggling incompletes, grad school will devour you and not leave a trace. It's more like the real world than a lot of folks count on. The main difference is that there's no reward except for learning to do something you love really well. And if you don't really love it to begin with, you're screwed, because spending years working on one thing will eventually fill you with rage and despair. If you're already the slightest bit ambivalent, the pressure can really get to you (and that's before worrying about money).

I'm not worried about the job market or having to feed my kids on food stamps - I can't stand children.

If I were worried about maintaining a nice, comfortable middle-class lifestyle with 2.3 kids, etc. I wouldn't even think about grad school (or a BFA).

I figure I'm either a) in good shape and ahead of my time, as many schools are headed in this direction b) will be a welcome addition to a traditional art history department--"See, we're keeping up with trendy theory", or c) hopelessly out to sea, falling between cracks everywhere.

That was the quote in the story that rang most true for me. I'm all too aware of job and debt difficulties, but I also know a lot of grad students who fit the above profile.

After having spent 4, 5, 6+ years in the program, people want a job--albeit a crappy one--that may reflect the one thing they are good at.

As well they should, I think. Ideally, you want a job that won't suck out your soul, and if it can actually contribute to what you "really" do, all the better. btw, The program at Irvine sounds great, robots, and it sounds like you're going into it for the right reasons and with a clear head.

Not that I've ever seen that happen.

-Gang of Four, "Why Theory?"

I will mock him. And then I'll charge him for the damaged book.

Aren't we all...

Ned: I've met you for 30 seconds, and already you are planning my demise?!

Should I go back for a PhD? I sort of hated my MA program for 8 months, but loved it for 1 week. Would schools think me sexy enough for a tenure-track position if my field was in pop culture?

Should I go back for a PhD? I sort of hated my MA program for 8 months, but loved it for 1 week.

Sure, go right ahead, if that's the kind of life you want, only worse. I mean, think about it. Maybe if you suffer enough through the PhD and get the job and eventually get tenure, you can keep doing the shit you sort of hate 95% of the time for the rest of your life, and be on twenty committees while doing it. That sounds like a good plan.

I am glad I went to grad school. I am MORE glad that I didn't pay for it (fellowship w/stipend, etc.).

Going to grad school = classic; paying for grad school = dud.

as of right now, ALL SEVEN of my applications are out. some have even gotten where they were supposed to go. the GRE scores, the transcripts from everywhere i've ever received college credit for anything, the essays, the three letters of recommendation, the stupidly expensive application fees... done, finally, after a couple of months of tearing my hair out.

i'm excited, relieved, and broke. i have beer. i'm going to drink some.

Did you end up asking your former employer for a recommendation (I'm trying to remember the exact details from that other thread)?

The article lamented that an English Ph.D. has a 20% chance of finding an academic position. That's a high number!

what's wrong with hunter?

i'm asking because if there's anything missing i want to get it in before the deadline, and i'll overnight the shit if i have to. and they're fucking me up. if i'm willing to pay $$$ to go to your school, AT LEAST FUCKING TRY TO BE HELPFUL.

i plan to go to the school with the least bureaucracy.

and you applied to RUTGERS with that expectation?!? :-)

such a creature does not exist. best you can hope for is a bureaucracy that is at least somewhat humane (as opposed to something that would've been right at home in the brezhnev-era soviet union).

the rutgers application process isn't too bad -- everything goes to the same office (i didn't have to mail different parts of the application to the admissions office AND the department). but i think some schools make things difficult just to fuck with people.

she wasn't positing a university without bureacracy.

i have never had any real problems with a school bureaucracy, except ucla's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/education/edlife/edl-24masters-t.html?

that's kinda how it is already in Europe

though lol @ quoting someone from Hoover on this

yeah all my euro friends have them, but it's often 3 years ug 2 years masters...also...they're free

yes & yes

lots of masturs are free too, or at least sorta since you end up teaching a bit & get tuition covered + a little fellowship

some are, but even more are basically cash cows for their universities - even 'respectable schools' do this.