Do you identify with your country?

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why?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I don't think I do. There are a lot of good things about Finland, mainly the welfare system and the progressive taxation and the environmental laws, but there's also an underlying nationalist tendency I don't like. Because Finland is a small and relatively young country, and it has had to fight for it's very existence several times during the 20th century, I can kinda understand Finnish nationalism, but I still don't want to identify with it.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Because I too tend to isolate myself during times of traumatic stress. I too enjoy the freedom to roam and explore. I don't mind people staying in my house as long as they help with the dishes. And I love eating grilled cheeseburgers whenever I can.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

cos I'm all mixed up and neither fish nor fowl, thirsty for something more and so proud, america is great.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with my home state much more than my country.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I very much feel a part of (and am proud of certain aspects of) British culture because I am to some extent a product of it.

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with suburban london specifically, much more than it would be wise to admit.

Julian barnes to thread.

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with my apartment more than with my country.

― dean? (deangulberry), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

my apartment's full of ants.

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

a metaphor for America

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Define 'country'

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe. If England is a cool reserve of dilettantism, wry but plucky, confident but occasionally arrogant, gallant but ambitious, enterprising but idealistic, competetive but complacent, pessimistic but hopeful, conservative but progressive...

If England, as a tangible notion of a collective of different people and cultures, is not those things then no. Or maybe I am not those things in reality.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i find it interesting as a concept. i can understand if you are a small country, and need to fight for identity. but, otherwise, i don't quite get it. the part i find most interesting, is when a host nation is perceived as being criticized, it is extremely common for people to become defensive, and to display patriotism and affinity they never seemed to have before.

i'm not sure i would even defend myself from verbal criticism, never mind my country, which i think deserves criticism, because there is more wrong with it than right with it, and i don't particularly want to identify with that.

actually, i find it rather depressing thinking about it! convince me im wrong someone!

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

you can be proud of/identify with your country without discouraging criticism of it.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

mr.lido otm. i feel the same way, basically.

now i have "let's do it for our country" from grease 2 stuck in my head. HELP.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

because there is more wrong with it than right with it

is this the case with most countries? how do you determine?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

(note: i am being defensive)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:16 (twenty-one years ago)

oh i know, but, criticism of anothers country is very difficult, because of the defensiveness it encourages.

also, i dont get "pride", how can i be proud of my country? how can anyone be proud of their country? i mean, thats like being proud of a bunch of other peoples achievments! people say "we did this" and i think, no you didnt! you sat at home and watched tv! you didnt do anythign! why are you claiming some kind of pride out of it?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

define "identify with"

― parakeet_esparanto (parakeetesparanto), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't identify with my country. I never understood the concept that I'm supposed to share something in common with someone born in Buffalo vs. someone born in Montreal because of luck.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with my home state much more than my country.

OTFM

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a Commonwealth of Kentucky flag in my bedroom, even.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:19 (twenty-one years ago)

i feel a bit like a product of 'England' sometimes, maybe because of the contradictive qualities i mentioned above, and how i might align myself with same qualities, pros and cons. i wouldn't call it pride as such, but it is a affiliation i seem fairly comfortable with. at the same time i think i like being thought of as European...and of course a Londoner...and yet sometimes somebody who wishes they were American...

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

right again, mr.lido.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

-- charltonlido

there was similar statements made on a recent thread, almost to the letter! i think maybe Kate started it??

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

But there's no doubt that those achievements ARE being posited as existing on behalf of an entire nation. I'm talking specifically about sporting or cultural achievements, I guess. If you live in a society that celebrates those things, it does resonate even if you didn't take part in it. For better or for worse, it also feeds into the mood of everyone around you, the culture you consume, and I guess what you would call a country's national image. it's bullshit, but it can often be how people from different countries judge each other, initally. And therein lies the thing we call "pride".

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxpost

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i suppose i do, yes. and i don't like that it's a bully.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

stevem otm

I was kinda replying to gareth

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Alternate Reasons To Be Proud Of Being English?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with my homepage.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

what about the SF Giants?

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the players but don't agree with the management so in a way it's very similar to my feelings on this fuxx0red country.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

omg perfect analogy gygax!

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, yes...I see what you're doing there.

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm kind of proud that i was born in hong kong because i can say things like "lay dah gwoo ho gang ah" and no one here would know what i meant.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I've always thought that, too re: pride. I think a lot of people need to feel connected to something larger, and that isn't necessarily a bad trait. The tendency to seperate people into us vs them has been around since tribal days and is therefore so ingrained (sp?) in humans that it's not an easy thing to get rid of.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

How could having "let's do it for our country" be a BAD thing, Lauren?

I relate to my home state, I guess, except for those geekwads who move here for the fresh powder.

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

kenc:

dang nay go fai. nay sek see.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you think I'm sek see?

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry for the tasteless joke. It was more powerful than I. How can one write Chinese in roman characters? Can it be misleading or are there enough phonetic or contextual clues so that you can mostly understand?

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought that joke would be anything but tasteless

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I haven't put the edible lube on yet, Ken. I tend to get in trouble when I do that at work.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you think I'm sek see?
-- Michael White (mwwhites...), July 27th, 2004 10:35 PM. (later)

you do know that that said "do you think i eat shit" right?

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Can it be misleading or are there enough phonetic or contextual clues so that you can mostly understand?

I don't think it's possible due to the tonality of the phrasing. to my ears, mandarin is even more tonal. ken c, did either of those make sense? If not, leave your mobile # and I'll pronounce them to you.

xpost: I GUESS SO!!!! :-D

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

you do know that that said "do you think i eat shit" right?

I wish you could see my shit-eating grin.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

What's up with Giambi?

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify with my country a lot less than a lot of the people I know. I live here and I like it and I'm glad for my opportunities and there are a lot of good things about it but I can't see my life or ideals being much different if I had been born in Canada, and I feel no horror at the thought of moving to Canada. I imagine that in some way there is less to "identify with" being American (at least, of European descent and not first- or second-generation) than with being from some small, really old country with its own language and long history and traditions, but I don't think that's a bad thing either.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

after listening to UK radio I think I identify with my country more

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

since a lot of that has to do with my faults, let's NOT mistake identification with pride

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Bill Hicks said something like, 'I'm not proud of my country. My parents fucked there, is all.'

Pretty much OTM, but I do think, however, that the society an individual in which grows up has a large influence on their world-view and the person they later become, and is therefore part of their identity. Of course, it's incredibly important to remember that it is by no means ALL, or even the largest part of your identity. Thinking like that leads to some incredibly ugly places.

― Wooden (Wooden), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I was talking more about identification, i guess. but I put "pride" in scare quotes, thankfully.

― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, I'm very American, painfully so. But the trick is less to think of the place less as an unchanging institution than as something that can mutate for the better if all goes well. And sometimes it doesn't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 21:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Bill Hicks said something like, 'I'm not proud of my country. My parents fucked there, is all.'

This funny. It's a deft barb at the unthinkingly, parochial, bully 'patriot' and it's also not really true. People are born and raised in societies and for better or worse this provide them with their language, their early social and asthetic references etc...

I'm 'proud' or perhaps, willing to support, some aspects of American culture, government, and society and loathe others. This, I believe, is everyone's right and I assert that that is very 'American'.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I will identify totally when I am emperor.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm very American, painfully so. But the trick is less to think of the place less as an unchanging institution than as something that can mutate for the better if all goes well. And sometimes it doesn't.
-- Ned Raggett (ne...), July 27th, 2004.

OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, it's odd that when people define their national character, and the aspects that they are proud of, they all say pretty much the same things. Sure there are aspects of my country I love and would struggle for, but there a bits of every country I would say the same thing for. We are all products of our culture though, as was said upthread, but that doesn't help those of us filled with self-loathing.

Gets more complicated with places like the UK I suppose, though the same thing goes for the US if upthread comments are right - re Scottish\British. Then if you add all the other things we are - are we British before we are Muslim, for example. Greer says that she is a woman before anything else. Class, religion, politics blah blah. I guess I just identify with humanity on the whole before my island.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I definitely make a distinction between identifying and taking pride in my country. Taking pride in means you can pick and choose things to look at and accept or reject, but identifying implies some sort of national character or mainstream, and I really have trouble thinking what that is because for one thing, people disagree, and for another, people aren't always living examples of the ideals they profess.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm proud of my country and have a great love for it, but because of my job or something I don't think of it primarily as a collection of people but as rocks, soil, plants and animals which are unique.

I've got nothing against the people, but they are probably much the same all over. And I strongly dislike the way that national identity = a sports team.

And I'm sure if I was born somewhere else I'd love and struggle for parts of it. But luck would have it that I'm here and I can't not identify with it.

― isadora (isadora), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I identify myself as American, but always laughingly shrug-away anti-Americanism by noting that I hold dual citizenship with Colombia.

― x j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm very American, painfully so.
-- Ned Raggett (ne...), July 27th, 2004.

But you've heard of another country...

― That's the Way (uh huh uh huh) I Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

What? I didn't say that! Who's been using my account?

― That's the Way (uh huh uh huh) I Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 27 July 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

do you take criticisms of your country as a personal affront?

and what about those of us without strong national identity, what are we missing out on? is that lack of pride indicative of a lower self esteem in some way?

there is a lot of talk about how people like the inhabitants of their country, while disliking the political system. how does this work out in a democracy, where one is chosen by the other? if you have a nasty govt, did your people not choose this? or, at the very least, give assent to it? how do you reconcile this?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:01 (twenty-one years ago)

this is an interesting question. needless to say, i felt differently about this when i was in france than when i am home in america. but the differences are complicated and i'm still trying to sort them out. will return to this after some thought (and sleep).

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 05:05 (twenty-one years ago)

The longer I am out of the US, the less I identify with the US and the more with Maryland.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

do you take criticisms of your country as a personal affront?

what if someone criticised your county or town/city of birth? would this be different? would you be more likely to take it as a personal affront? is a country (even the size of England) too big for it to irk?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

if you have a nasty govt, did your people not choose this? or, at the very least, give assent to it? how do you reconcile this?

well you said yourself on another thread that it would be for the 'two party system' here to be disrupted, so i think part of the apparent paradox is a result of tolerating that setup as we do

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Completely. Failed English, failed American, passive-aggressive, corrupt, broke, pointless

― dave q, Wednesday, 28 July 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

those are harsh words for morrissey

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, I do. I am as insecure, hardworking and stupid as (the view others have of) my country.

― jesus nathalie (nathalie), Wednesday, 28 July 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

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