How Do You Discreetly & Politely Tell Someone that their Underarm Deodorant (or, more likely, their complete lack thereof) is in Swift Need of a Reappraisal?

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Seriously. We have a cleaning lady here at the office -- who is very nice (albeit a bit chattier than i'd prefer) -- but you can smell her comin' down the hall. It's an olfactory attrocity, and we can't open these windows.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:24 (twenty years ago)

You just can't.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:31 (twenty years ago)

please. there must be a way.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:32 (twenty years ago)

Just fire her.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:35 (twenty years ago)

Firstly, you can't do it, you have to have a woman do it. Is there anyone you can sucker into it?

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:36 (twenty years ago)

Just fire her.

I do not weild this sort've power.

Firstly, you can't do it, you have to have a woman do it. Is there anyone you can sucker into it?

They're all wimps about it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:46 (twenty years ago)

She's a cleaning lady in Manhattan. She probably works four jobs and sells blood just to pay rent, cut her some slack.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:49 (twenty years ago)

Deodorant is not expensive. And she's invariably paid more than i am.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:50 (twenty years ago)

NO. She smells and must be punished.

xpost

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:51 (twenty years ago)

I find it best to question yourself and allow others to infer that they're the culprit. Example: Ask her if YOU smell, and then mention that someone had been complaining about BO, and then thank her for helping determine that it wasn't you.

Hopefully, she can draw her own conclusions.

― Laura E (laurae55), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:52 (twenty years ago)

If this story was relocated to Berkeley, nobody would care.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:52 (twenty years ago)

Damn. It's tricky. Lemme think about it.

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:52 (twenty years ago)

Leave this thread on your monitor.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:53 (twenty years ago)

i'm not saying she sould be garroted (ick, that would involve getting much closer to her). i'm just saying that she should wear some form of effective deodorant. It's not a lot to ask.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:53 (twenty years ago)

I love how someone who can sit at a desk thus exerting no physical activity can complain that someone who clearly had to spend all day hauling trash cans and vacuum cleaners has the temerity to smell bad.

No offense Alex ;P I mean I know some people can honk. But it isnt your place to say anything, really... she might not be able to help it (some people honestly cant).

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:53 (twenty years ago)

Anonymously leave multi-packs of Degree in places she cleans.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:54 (twenty years ago)

Leave this thread on your monitor.

Heh. It's not just me who feels this way, by the way (i.e. this isn't just grouchy Alex in NYC screaming at the world). There's five of us in here, and we all notice it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:54 (twenty years ago)

(Trayce OTM. I spent today hanging insulation in what felt like a sauna. By the time I ate lunch after noon, I'm sure legions of yuppies and college students were offended by my presence. Fuck 'em.)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:55 (twenty years ago)

This isn't a fuckin' construction site. This is a goddamn office. All i'm saying is that hard work or not -- steps can be taken. I don't honestly expect a solution here,.....but it really is a fuckin' pong, as my wife would say.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:57 (twenty years ago)

True. Tho mind you, sometimes deo over the top of pong is even worse!

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:59 (twenty years ago)

It would at least be an effort.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 01:59 (twenty years ago)

The most straightforward is to engage her in a private conversation. Tell her that she may not be aware of it, but when she is around you -- or 'people' -- notice a smell that may indicate strong body odor or perhaps clothes that need drycleaning. You have to keep in mind the possibility that there is an organic problem over which she has no control that makes her smell, so you have to ask whether there is a problem before saying: "You smell bad! Why don't you take a shower every morning?"

Telling someone the truth, particularly diplomatically, is actually a way of showing respect: "If I didn't think you were a mature, sensible person, I don't know how I would deal with this subject. But since I do respect you, I feel confident that what I'm about to say won't be taken the wrong way..."

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:00 (twenty years ago)

It's an office, and if you or one of your colleagues had issues, that's one thing. But janitorial staff are doing manual labor, lifting, etc. and are around chemicals that smell none too sweet.

I suppose I'm just not overly keen on the idea of office-dwellers ever complaining (even privately) about the odor of someone who does manual labor.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:01 (twenty years ago)

Or perhaps you (or someone) could call the company she works for and they could let her know?

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:02 (twenty years ago)

I think you should marry her.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Take a second wife like some kind of verbose postpunk interweb Mormon fundamentalist.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Don't get all Billy Bragg on me, comrade. If it were a fellow "office-dweller", I'd feel no different.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:04 (twenty years ago)

That makes sense luna, but no one is going to think that when you tell them they stink. "Him calling me stinky means he respects me!"
adam is right. There is no way to be polite or discrete. The person's feelings are almost guaranteed to be hurt and she'll be embarrassed every time she's around you or any of your colleagues. This is why she's lived in society for however many years and still smells! If there was a way to let her know, someone would've done it already.

xxxxpost

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:05 (twenty years ago)

Well, yeah, I agreed with that. Someone who types all day doesn't have as much of a reason for hygienic lapses as a janitor.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:05 (twenty years ago)

Or maybe they always hoped someone else would tell her.

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:06 (twenty years ago)

moreover, the two other folks on the janitorial staff are able to curtail their natural human odors.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:06 (twenty years ago)

I think Mr Bragg DID write a song about this particular subject. The Ken Loach made a film about it.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:06 (twenty years ago)

Someone who types all day doesn't have as much of a reason for hygienic lapses as a janitor.

you have not met my co-workers, obv.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:07 (twenty years ago)

Talking to the Taxman about Perspiration

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:07 (twenty years ago)

what reasons do they have?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:08 (twenty years ago)

do they use Flintstone typewriters?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:08 (twenty years ago)

seriously, every time one of my editors brings a paper over to my desk, there's always crumbs, stains and bits of her makeup on it. Always.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:08 (twenty years ago)

anvils for paperweights?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:08 (twenty years ago)

anyway, I did the best I could. sorry I can't be of help, Alex.

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:09 (twenty years ago)

mental illness is the main reason, I think.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:09 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, Luna.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:10 (twenty years ago)

If this story was relocated to Berkeley, nobody would care.

ROFFLE

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:10 (twenty years ago)

Boy howdy, you can still sit at a desk and stink though let me tell you. Certain role playing types who worked on the same internet helpdesk I did had an er... odour. The team leader just sent an email saying "guys (and I MEAN guys), someone here is not showering enough and if you dont take care of it I will start naming names!". I dont think it ever worked tho.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:10 (twenty years ago)

Roleplayers are a breed unto themselves. Cheap pizza does weird things to body chemistry.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:12 (twenty years ago)

Don't they ever play the role of a guy who showers regularly?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:14 (twenty years ago)

cause, like, they should.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:14 (twenty years ago)

Cheap pizza, and stewing under heavy wool trenchcoats all the livelong day.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:18 (twenty years ago)

Ohh... I've solved it:

Hang a bunch of those scented pine-tree things from her brooms!

― ex-jeremy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 16 September 2004 05:07 (twenty years ago)

I'm so, so tired of this shit. Alex, you can just go fuck yourself. You really honestly don't have even the monocellular beginnings of a leg to stand on here, and I've never found you particularly amusing to begin with. Would still like to meet you someday IRL but frankly it's about time I made my peace with your online persona: You're a fucking bourgeoisie prat, a punk rocker in a lincoln town car, a manhattan press affiliate with a tax-free penis (as long as you only use it for slapping poor people in the face).

Good fucking night.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 16 September 2004 05:24 (twenty years ago)

Ouch.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 16 September 2004 05:33 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 120 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Er, snazz - I think Tom was joking. He did indeed spell it correctly upthread.

x-post: aldo, I was defending Alex because a lot of people -do- have a good idea how much their maintenance staff makes, whether it's in-house or contracted out. That was certainly the case in a couple of
places I worked, where the maintenance people most certainly made more money than some of the office workers. Anyway, I think this is getting kind of pedantic. This is just Alex being Alex (I don't mean that as a put-down).

And I hope I don't sound like one of those 'jeez, can you believe the janitors get fifteen bucks an hour, that's so unfair' types (I've
actually heard this complaint). I'm just pointing out that if they're unionized, they can make more than an office drone.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 16 September 2004 19:53 (twenty years ago)

Er, snazz - I think Tom was joking. He did indeed spell it correctly upthread.

If anyone's spelling it wrong, it's probably me.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 19:56 (twenty years ago)

Oh, you mean why did I mention that she was a cleaning lady? Because SHE IS. I was merely providing detail. This, I'm finding, was a mistake.
But why? As you wonder later on, if I had just said "someone in my office" things might have been different. Why didn't you? I (and others) have tried to explore some of the reasons, you've denied all of them - and are accusing us/me of trying to turn it into a discussion about class.

apartment with something that stinks of shit and off-milk
Watch that.
Again, why? I raised two of my own, and it was true in a decent-sized house, even without me spending all day with them. (I had a "day job") Take away the romance and it's absolutely true. It's also utterly relevant to the debate (if you take all the points instead of the ones you choose to answer).

Then you do spend "all day" with her, her shifts are the same as yours. You're changing the goalposts here. I note your backtracking on her earnings, thanks. You're now assuming she must earn more than you, with no evidence. As I said above, do you earn less than $17.50 an hour, which appears to be the union rate?
You're merely trying to pick a fight now. For a start, the baby cannot look after her own hygene, whereas the cleaning lady can, yet -- I'm assuming -- chooses not to in this capacity, thus it's a moot comparison. In terms of her earnings, it was never my intention to go off on that tangent, as I don't believe it has anything to do with this debate. In fact, the original point was about being stuck in an office environment with someone (regardless of rank/class) who disregards the need for deodorant. Full stop. You want to make this into a discussion of class, and that's a different thread entirely.

I'm not merely trying to pick a fight, I'm merely getting you to prove the assertions you have made upthread, which you have used to argue against points other people have made. What's the legal issue... "Do not say anything you might later rely on in court." You're changing the focus to what are simple questions.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago)

As you wonder later on, if I had just said "someone in my office" things might have been different. Why didn't you? I (and others) have tried to explore some of the reasons, you've denied all of them - and are accusing us/me of trying to turn it into a discussion about class.

Why didn't I? Because i foolishly didn't anticipate the knee-jerk accusations about class/rank snobbery.

Watch that. Again, why? I raised two of my own, and it was true in a decent-sized house

What you're doing -- as I see it -- is merely perpetuating the tangents that weren't originally the intention of this thread.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:17 (twenty years ago)

(At this point, Alex, I don't think you can fite the thread drift.)

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:18 (twenty years ago)

http://www.usatoday.com/life/photos/movies/godfather.jpg

― Big Mike C, Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago)

(At this point, Alex, I don't think you can fite the thread drift.)

Nah, I know, but I'm just getting tired of explaining myself. If you read this thread as being some sort've hateful elitist manifesto, I apologize, that was never the intention. Nor was it the intention to touch off a bush fire debate about the injustices of minimum wage. It was intended to be a light-hearted forum about petty annoyance. Nothing more.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Why didn't I? Because i foolishly didn't anticipate the knee-jerk accusations about class/rank snobbery.
But surely you must understand the distinction? After all, you made it in the first place. Why did you think "cleaning lady" mattered when every other ilX thread talks about "co-worker"? It has far more distinctions than just the ones you're intending to imply about class, but also about just how much time you spend with her (as I've tried to point out several times, it has direct bearing on how much time she spends with you compared to.. say... someone on the subway. This has never been answered.)

Just let's not bring our respective kids into this, that's all. Yes, i'm well aware that I've probably shared too much with ILX about the fact that I have a child, but I don't want to see her (nor yours) be used as fodder for arguments.
But it's relevant. OK, my choice of words could have been better, but what I say is at heart true (and there is a greater point, trust me). No?

What you're doing -- as I see it -- is merely perpetuating the tangents that weren't originally the intention of this thread.
Then what was the original point? As far as I can tell (and taking your first two or three posts into account) it was "my cleaner stinks, how can I make it stop?"

In which case, as I think I made the point upthread - live with it. I had a cleaner that stank once. Really stank. She was round my desk 10 minutes a day. I didn't let it bother me.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago)

Why did you think "cleaning lady" mattered when every other ilX thread talks about "co-worker"?

It's not that it matters, it's merely detail. Nothing more, nothing less.

"my cleaner stinks, how can I make it stop?"

For a start, she's not my cleaner, she is ourcleaning lady -- in the same way the managing editor is our managing editor...stop trying to make it a pejorative.

She was round my desk 10 minutes a day. I didn't let it bother me.

How nice for you. I just thought this was an interesting and probably common little dilemma people tend to encounter, and was hoping for some jovial commiseration, not the fucking Spanish Inquisition its turned out to be.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Yes, Alex, be sure to teach your kid that people who clean offices have a foul smell emitting from them. Thus we can all live in a more tolerant world in the future.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:39 (twenty years ago)

http://www.montypythonpages.com/pictures/spanish_inq.jpg

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:40 (twenty years ago)

Yes, Alex, be sure to teach your kid that people who clean offices have a foul smell emitting from them. Thus we can all live in a more tolerant world in the future.

As mentioned, please let's leave our kids out of this. It's just nasty and unnecessary. You want to insult me or accuse me of something, that's fine, but don't allude to my child, please.

Secondly -- and this gets back to the original intention -- I don't care if you're a cleaning lady or an investment banker or a cab driver or a brain surgeron -- deodorant is cheap, readily availalbe and the usage of same is an act of consideration that no one should be exempt from.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago)

Honestly, I don't see what aldo's getting worked up about here. I mean, sure, one can quibble with, or even find absurd, the notion that Alex is paid less than the cleaning lady, one can think he should just "lump it", etc, but there's no trace of actual hatred or objectification in his original post. If anything, just the opposite. I mean, the premise is how do you *discreetly and politely* tell someone (who he mentions is quite nice, albeit on the chatty side) that they have have an unbearable smell. I mean, this seems respectful: there's a quite clear distinction there between the person and the unfortunate cloud of stink-molecules said person emits.

― Collardio Gelatinous (collardio), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago)

I don't know how it is over there, but in the US, 'cleaning lady' only seems to be offensive to people who have them at home. I mean, yeah, people usually say 'janitor' for a guy or 'cleaning lady' for a woman, but it's not meant to be offensive.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, Collardio. I think people are just projecting based on some vitriolic posts and threads I've participated/stared in the past, that's all.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:45 (twenty years ago)

Ah, context.

― Collardio Gelatinous (collardio), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:46 (twenty years ago)

And with that, with you choosing to argue over tangent upon tangent rather than direct question (never mind have the temerity to accuse me of it) I guess it's over.

What was the point made here again? Hmm.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:48 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I meant in that thread period. The way I've linked it back implies in that actual posting.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:49 (twenty years ago)

he doesn't seem to know this, but Tom cannot spell the word "Wednesday", FWIW. Maybe snazz can have some words with him?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Well, yeah -- context. But, by the same token, shouldn't my posts be judged on their individual content -- rather than jumping to conclusions based on previous posts and wildly different subject matters?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Only if robots are reading them.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 16 September 2004 23:10 (twenty years ago)

We have a cleaning lady here at the office -- who is very nice (albeit a bit chattier than i'd prefer) -- but you can smell her comin' down the hall.

We had a woman like that at work. Her name was Rose.

I worked with a guy* who stank so much that we told the boss, who had a word to him. After that he'd leave cans of Rexona on his desk as if to say 'look, I have deodorant now' BUT HE DIDN'T USE THEM.

* term used loosely; 'revolting beast' would be more appropriate]

― Sexual Air Supply (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 17 September 2004 02:28 (twenty years ago)

Please. Let's not revive this.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 17 September 2004 02:33 (twenty years ago)

ten months pass...

Ever encountered smell twins? people whose stench is eerily similar to the stench of another person. I get a few of them in the video store I work.

― Menelaus Darcy (Menelaus Darcy), Friday, 29 July 2005 03:18 (nineteen years ago)

Wow this was an acrimonious thread. Why did I revive this? Is Aldo Cowpat still around?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 29 July 2005 03:23 (nineteen years ago)

He is! Are you planning on exchanging bro-hugs with him?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 29 July 2005 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

My colleague's 11-year-old granddaughter was given detention at school for offering her deodorant to a girl in her class who had a BO problem - apparently the girl was black and she got the detention for "racism".

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 29 July 2005 12:25 (nineteen years ago)

Was she polite or sneering when she made her offer? Not that it matters, there's kind of no way to offer someone deodorant without mortifying and embarrassing them.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 29 July 2005 12:26 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, that's what I thought too. She claims she was just being thoughtful, and her gran was totally "she'd NEVER be racist", and I'm sure she's right, but the girl in question is a right irritating minx and I wouldn't put it past her to do a bit of subtle bullying.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 29 July 2005 12:57 (nineteen years ago)

Honestly, "bro-hugs" weren't quite what I had in mind.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

Who needs deodorant when they're eleven years old, anyway? Surely it's only puberty that makes you stink.

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:48 (nineteen years ago)

Many yong kids smell kind of weird. If you've ever worked in a primary school you'll realise. I don't know if it's B.O. exactly. Maybe like the B.O. equivalent of milk teeth.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:51 (nineteen years ago)

Oh please. It's not racism. It's probably just tactless.

― nathalie's body's designed for two (stevie nixed), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:52 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah kids stink in a kid way, obv. But not in a deodorant way.

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

Well what is that stink coming from?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:55 (nineteen years ago)

What I'm asking is - presented with a child who smells of luncheon meat, what is the best course of action?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:56 (nineteen years ago)

Ask R. Kelly.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

I think asking R. Kelly would be a BAD idea.

― The Ghost of Luncheon Meat Drenched In Urine (Dan Perry), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

Advise them or their parents on bathing and teeth-cleaning?

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:08 (nineteen years ago)

Sell them as individually-wrapped slices?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 29 July 2005 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

Who needs deodorant when they're eleven years old, anyway? Surely it's only puberty that makes you stink.

this is definitely NOT true -- i remember one kid that we used to tease mercilessly in the 5th grade b/c he smelled bad.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 29 July 2005 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

Unh huh ... when my (5th grade) class was at gym last year I'd need to crack the windows open prior to their return, even in the middle of winter. I don't know exactly if it was underarm perspiration that reeked like a hot-dog factory, but it was something damn rank about them wee'uns.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Friday, 29 July 2005 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

How on earth do kids have bad body odor? That's a sign of a domestic problem.

And this thread was hilarious.

― Land Ho (dymaxia), Friday, 29 July 2005 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

I just like spam! I'm collocting junk email...

― JAPHspam, Wednesday, 17 August 2005 06:01 (nineteen years ago)

two years pass...

Ha ha, Americans are just weird about odour. Sorry, odor.

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 8 September 2007 08:28 (seventeen years ago)

Please. Let's not revive this.
-- Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:33 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link

― Eisbaer, Saturday, 8 September 2007 10:03 (seventeen years ago)

Someone posted a link to it in the thread about removing shoes.

― Lostandfound, Sunday, 9 September 2007 01:17 (seventeen years ago)

But yeah, it's disconcerting.

― Lostandfound, Sunday, 9 September 2007 01:17 (seventeen years ago)

i think the title of this thread might be poorly constructed. can a need really be 'swift'?

― gem, Sunday, 9 September 2007 01:32 (seventeen years ago)

They are even weirder about ordure.

― Aimless, Sunday, 9 September 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago)

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