so, i've lost my friend to christ

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so a really close friend - who's always had hermit tendencies - has decided to spend his free time in church and not really hang out with his friends anymore. he started flaking on plans because he had to go to church for a second (!) time on sunday, and then he'd not show up on thursdays. so it looks like he's going to church almost every day. and he's now explaining it to us that the lord talks to him and he hears him so clearly.

his parents are both ministers, so i've known he was always a bit religious. but before a month ago he was yr average guy. prolly went to church on sundays.

he also, within the past year i've known him gone from having one tattoo to having both sleeves, both his legs and his entire back done (all very beautiful japanese inspired art). so this says that a) he's an extremist and b) he must be feeling a lot of pain and have masochistic tendencies.

i'm sort of worried, but i'm also supporting him because it seems to be what he needs.

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

I don't know how to respond without making a feeble joke.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)

Every person's got to walk their own path, Jason. Tell him you understand but you don't want to lose him, or words to that effect.

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

xpost - i know. i want to keep it light, but it's pretty scary at the same time.

(what was yr joke)

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

scary?

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

My joke was "It would awesome if your friend had become a nun."

Because of the whole Brides of Christ thing, it would be like Christ had totally stolen your friend from another relationship.

See? Feeble.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:01 (twenty years ago)

he's pretty much said that he's not upset with his friends, but he doesn't feel he needs to hang out and he doesn't need to party anymore

Tell him you understand but you don't want to lose him, or words to that effect.

i know there's nothing else i can do. if i were to discourage him from what he's doing, he'd just turn from me completely

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

'I had a friend who had a friend in Jesus,
He used to read the good book every day,
M6y friend he got so friendly with friend jesus
Friend Jesus Took my only friend away'

― Ed (dali), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

My buddies tell me that I should have waited
They say I'm missing a whole world of fun
But I am happy and I sing with pride
I like the christian life
I won't lose a friends by heeding God's call
For what is a friend who'd want me to fall
Otheres find pleasure in things I despise
I like the christian life
My buddies shun me since I turned to Jesus
But I am happy though it burdens my soul
And I'll try to lead them to walk in the night
I like the christian life

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

scary because for someone to change their lifestyle so drastically, so quickly, i have to worry if a) he's really hurting inside or b) he's involved in some sort of cult?

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

Every person's got to walk their own path, Jason.

The delusional, masochistic path?

he's now explaining it to us that the lord talks to him and he hears him so clearly

How literally does he mean this? Or is it hard to tell?

It would be nice to find him a therapist that would explain to him that his newfound religion is just a method of avoiding deeper issues, but sadly I fear that it would be very difficult to find such a person.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

that's really condescending!

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

what church does he go to?

(hooray for the Louvin Bros)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

How literally does he mean this? Or is it hard to tell?

completely literally

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Well, it sounds to me like jaxon is *worried* about the guy, not just losing the friendship. Like, he may be going off the deep end.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

a friend of mine got talked into being a fundamentalist about eight years ago. he went from being a beer drinking, occassionally bar fighting, fun guy, to being a beer drinking, occassionally bar fighting, occassionally homeless, hyper-judgmental guy who only wants to talk about metaphysical spiritual warfare and how everyone's going to hell. it's sad. we used to be really close. we can barely talk anymore without getting on each other's nerves about matters religious and otherwise. good luck with your friend.

― reich marx sandwich, Monday, 6 June 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

what church does he go to?

it's not at a "normal" church. it's in some building on market downtown.

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

completely literally

See, amst? Not condescending. Practical. Dude's cracking up.

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Woah

― From Zero To Drunk In Twenty Dollars (nordicskilla), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

But what if Christ is actually talking to him? And saying things like, "I'm so sorry, it's just that when you don't take out the trash I get so mad and I can't control myself; I swear it won't happen again, baby"?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:09 (twenty years ago)

Does your friend look like this, by any chance?

http://deniro.jvlnet.com/musclecapefear.jpg

― slightly more subdued (kenan), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

it's not at a "normal" church. it's in some building on market downtown.

yeah that could be troubling. what kind of ministers are his parents?

― kyle (akmonday), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

the worst kind of "losing your friend to jesus" is when it doesnt even transform them much, it just makes them into a more smug, prissy version of the person you knew.

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

Jason, are you worried there may be some psychological pathology going beyond just the routine pain of living?

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

He's cracking up, but I would say that you've probably "lost" him already in the sense that there is little to no "help" you can give him that he would be likely heed (and it doesn't sound like he has a wife or a family that you can assist in getting him that help.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

If he's still willing to hang out though and his presence doesn't become too unsettling and/or uncomfortable just being cool around him might bring around a little. Maybe enough to convince him that he's uh losing his mind and might need to be on some medication.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

please please please forgive me, jaxon, but your thread title keeps images like this in my head..

http://www.thewinds.org/images/jesus_gun.jpg

had you titled the thread "so, i've lost my friend to a weird church", it would have been more apt, i think.

Alex and M. White, of course, OTM in all ways.

― donut debonair (donut), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

of he remains nice and not preachy and doesn't turn into a fucking prick, then you're in better shape than me and my brother in law! sometimes religion makes people nicer.

― kyle (akmonday), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

i'm not sure he's "crazy". in person, he seems to be the same person. it's just that he really doesn't hang out anymore and when asked where he's been he says he's been praying. he's not preachy at all.

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

I'm like this, just with Playstation 2 instead of church.

(sorry)

― From Zero To Drunk In Twenty Dollars (nordicskilla), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

I lost a friend to quantum physics and books like "The Alchemist"

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I think adam's point, jokey that it is, isn't illegitimate. Dude doesn't want to party? I can't really fault him. Doesn't feel like hanging out? OK. Is it worse than Playstation or internet porn or macrame? Maybe, but not necessarily.

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

Is macrame an ideology?

― From Zero To Drunk In Twenty Dollars (nordicskilla), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

I've read somewhere that there's something of a mild correlation between *really* extreme bodymod stuff and abuse experienced as a child. Something to keep in mind.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

definitely somethings i've briefly thought about. if we're digging even deeper here, his brother is gay and into the gothy, deathrock scene

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

nto the gothy, deathrock scene

You sound like you are 50 and in 1985!

― kyle (akmonday), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

If I turned to christ, could I take more holidays?

― From Zero To Drunk In Twenty Dollars (nordicskilla), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

You sound like you are 50 and in 1985!

yeah, i forgot for a sec that people here are gothy and know music

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 June 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

Is macrame an ideology?

In my experience of humanity, almost anything can become an ideology.

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

"If I turned to christ, could I take more holidays?"

No, but if you turned INTO Christ anything would be possible.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

"In my experience of humanity, almost anything can become an ideology."

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE BEFORE WE TURN AWAY FROM THIS HORROR?!!?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

If I turned INTO Christ, would Moodymann come to SF?

― From Zero To Drunk In Twenty Dollars (nordicskilla), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

Is macrame an ideology?

http://www.religiousproductsrus.com/t/jewlry/N000260029.jpg

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

"If I turned INTO Christ, would Moodymann come to SF?"

Possibly.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

I say let him go, I guess. I mean, he's your friend and I'm assuming that, because of that, letting him go would be hard to do, but if he's really found something, no matter what it is, that he feels improves his life or whatever, then....good for him? I don't know. It's good that he's not being preachy. And if he still feels like he can hang out with you and have fun despite his newfound spirituality, all the better. But if he can't, why tear him up? It's his business alone what he believes and what he holds "sacred", and if he feels like he can't participate in the same activities he used to, or something, well, that's his right, and you should respect him for that, even if deep down you think it's stupid.

― kirsten (kirsten), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

yes, but the problem is these kind of things can help someon in the short term, but leave them even more messed up down the line

i mean, theres a reason families try to free their loved ones from cults?

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

even though they are 'happy'

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

I agree w/Kristen's advice. if you think he's mentally unstable and a threat to his health or the health of others then more extreme measures might be called for (ie, checking him into a hospital)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 6 June 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

Give him some Christian black metal albums to keep his edgy image happenin'.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 6 June 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)

Fer Christs sake, people - since when did wanting to NOT party and go nuts, wanting to settle down, have a quiet life and meditative prayer mean you were "umstable" and needed medication or a shrink? I knew ILX was cynical but bloody nora. By your reasonings I should be in a padded room myself, because I never go out, and dont hang with my friends much anymore.

If he was doing it because he was really into HalfLife2 instead of church, I dont think we'd have this thread.

I'm not religious but some of the replies on here, no offence dudes, are really misguided.

― Trayce (trayce), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 47 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

oh wait, don't tell me, i know i've heard this one before.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 05:14 (twenty years ago)

This thread only proves once again that a St. Francis of Assissi could not exist today (in the West), but that many (sad) St. Joans of Arc probably do.

also that the sensually-defined and conceptualized notion of what is "reality" has been hegemonically pushed and unconsciously accepted by all the thinking classes without respite yadda yadda blah blah blah this a is boring topic even 4 me by now. also of course that there are no - or perhaps very few - true poets on ILE (but we knew that already).

Jaxon, I think Hemogoblin / Eisbar's advice is prolly the best anyway. Just be there.

christians always thinks god talks to them

-- anthony easton (anthonyeasto...), June 7th, 2005.

Yeah, well hindus/buddhists think that they're talkin' to (the 'real' version of) Themselves when they talk to Gawd - what's the difference there?

--whats the difference b/w a madman and a prophet

None.:

Because of your love

I have lost my sobriety

I am intoxicated

by the madness of love.

You dance inside my chest,

Where no one sees you

but sometimes I do, and that

sight becomes this art.

I have lived on the lip

of insanity, wanting to know reasons,

knocking on a door. It opens.

I've been knocking from the inside!

From the beginning of my life

I have been looking for your face

but today I have seen it.

Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi, sometime in that 13th century, yo

― Vichitravirya XI, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 05:54 (twenty years ago)

IMHO:I've dealt with this more times than I care to remember. I've managed to maintain two friendships with Evangelical friends. It's not easy though. I really have to think about how to handle them. They tend to be very defensive and judgemental. But then I just imagine them before it came into their lives. They were weightless, guilty, and distracted. But now they have substance and most of important of all : purpose! And I know that they are good people and therefore deserve my trust in their decisions. I would be less of a person and freind to scoff at their claims of communicating with god. For anyone to insinuate that they are crazy is arrogant as much as ignorant.

Yeah, well hindus/buddhists think that they're talkin' to (the 'real' version of) Themselves when they talk to Gawd - what's the difference there?
You read my mind!: Would anyone ever say that about the Dali Lama? Or a Rabbi? I hope not.

― django (django), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:02 (twenty years ago)

say that they were crazy that is

― django (django), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:03 (twenty years ago)

Thats a great poem Vic!

― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:03 (twenty years ago)

Has everyone here had bad experiences with devout Christians or something? I have a really close friend who recently found religion. And even though I hardly ever see anymore since he's always at church now, when I do see him, he's still the sweetest, nicest guy I know. I even think he's gotten nicer despite the fact that he has Jesus stickers everywhere on him these days.

It does suck when you don't get to spend as much time with your friend as before but as long as they don't try to push their religion on to you, I think it's all good.

― Roz (Roz), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:33 (twenty years ago)

Unless it is a dodgy church, of course.

― Roz (Roz), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 06:34 (twenty years ago)

Just tell him the whole god thing isn’t true, it was a story years ago that got out of hand.

I can’t believe the whole looking up to a “god” still manages to interest people.

That’s what I think anyway. Let a god tell me differently if they wish.

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 07:28 (twenty years ago)

i dont think the problem is that the guy found religion per se. i think its the way he found it, what hes found, the reasons, whether its going to work out for him. jaxon isnt knocking born again christians per se, he is talking about a specific situation which he doesnt feel is quite right, and hes worried.

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 07:40 (twenty years ago)

Has everyone here had bad experiences with devout Christians or something?

outside of the past 250 years of American history you mean?

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

KIDDING, KIDDING

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

If the guy is hearing voices, even divine voices in his head, I'd be worried. If by "God speaking to him" he means he's in communion with God's love or feels God's presence in creation or something, then prepare to be bored.

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

This puts a new spin on the "I've got a friend in Jesus" thing.

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

"Has everyone here had bad experiences with devout Christians or something?"

Um has anyone HERE not had bad experiences with devout Christians is probably the better question.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

Topics That the Typically Intelligent People on ILX are Incapable of Discussing Intelligently

1. Religion

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

We knew that already.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

2. My brilliance. (People laugh too much, which is cruel and sad.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

We knew that already.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

FWIW, Dan, you're like the only person who ever seems reasonable when these religion "discussions" happen.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

perhaps we should have a separate thread about unpleasant experiences ILXors have had w/ the religious. if nothing else, it would useful for understanding why so many of us are so unfavorable about such people.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

That is a FANTASTIC idea.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

(mods: how is the work on those < sarcasm> tags going?)

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

All joking aside - I hope that JaXoN has not lost a good friend and that everyone in this difficult situation will come out of it for the better.

― Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

Then we can move on to Arabs and gay people!

― The Ghost of Get Them Up Against The Wall (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

Can't wait.

― Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

dan: it's not the same thing and you know it. it will be the same thing when i start seeing saudi wahhabi "missionaries" on american streets and gays actually to "recruit" (as the christian right alleges).

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

Though all should be protected, there is a difference between being gay or arab (which isn't a choice) and one's religion (which is a choice).

― Leonard Thompson (Grodd), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:12 (twenty years ago)

I would love to see gay recruitment drives in giant suburban shopping malls!

― Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, to be more rhetorically convenient for your tiny little minds:

Next we can do the Republicans and the whiggers!

― The Ghost of Part 385439498294 Of Infinity (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:16 (twenty years ago)

I would love to see gay recruitment drives in giant suburban shopping malls!

Have you been to Pottery Barn?

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

I doubt that most religious people would consider their religion a "choice," and you would have as much difficulty arguing against that as you would arguing against homosexuality as a "choice."

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

id love to see a gay cult which takes people away from their loved ones, and doesn't let them leave.

this is just crazy now. a place of dubious legitimacy is being held as comparable to sexuality and race? leaving aside whether religion is comparable to sexuality and race (another discussion), we havent established that this particular place is even bona fide.

also, i wonder how many people would be as forgiving if we were talking about scientologists here. it seems people are quite happy for their people to start disappearing into something potentially shady because they 'seem happy'. is the concern here really so invalid?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

Have you been to Pottery Barn?

No, is it nice?

xp - What about ILX? Some people risk real-life friendships, full time employment and the comforts of basic hygiene just in the name of talking every day about what cake is the most delicious and lusting after Yousendits of the Spork mix of Satan Bug on the DFA.

― Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

and, just because i have a different opinion on this im not sure it therefore follows that i am unable to discuss something intelligently. i dont see how that follows at all.

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

I doubt that most religious people would consider their religion a "choice," and you would have as much difficulty arguing against that as you would arguing against homosexuality as a "choice."

In regards to Christianity, read your Bible. It's ALL ABOUT CHOICE.

― Leonard Thompson (Grodd), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

Kind of like Tuomas on the hairy nipple thread, we've basically done a rhetorical bait-and-switch here and aren't really talking about Jaxon's friend anymore (who sounds like he has deeper problems than his religion anyway; addictive, self-destructive personality = bad regardless of the activity it latches onto).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)

Kind of like Tuomas on the hairy nipple thread, we've basically done a rhetorical bait-and-switch here and aren't really talking about Jaxon's friend anymore

... which is why i suggested a separate thread to discuss people's problems w/ religious people.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

Dan OTM. This never had very much to do with religion for me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

why do so many ILXors (including myself) have so much hostility to religious people?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

I prefer this one:

Justify Your Bigotry!

Have fun!

― The Ghost of When Did You Stop Beating Your Wife? (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

well, im still talking about jaxons friend, and a specific case. otherwise were conflating different things

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

Agreed. I don't know that anyone's been specifically arguing with YOU, G.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

In all seriousness, it's a sad story (for you), but God knows (and I use the term lightly) what inner torment your pal endured before he discovered Christ. Let him work out his problems, wish him the best, and remind him that you're here for him.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

There's a rather scary Flannery O'Connonr story called "Parker's Back," whose main character has similar tattoos. Coincidence?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

This thread title would make a good country song.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't know about that. How many country songs start "So,..."?

― Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

"So, Georgia On My Mind"

"So, I'm so lonesome I could cry"

― Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

NOT ENOUGH.

― n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Gore Vidal to thread!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

"So, There Goes My Everything"

― Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

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