so, my bus got shot up on the way home

i wish i could find a way to blame firstbus for this, but i can't. give me time.

donut bitch's post on that thread is awesomely amusing/fucked up.

But anyways, I didn't mean to sound flippant.

crimewatch said it was unexplained, probably a suicide, yea right, whatever. a gun protects you from fuck all

The reaction of the passengers was astounding. Only one hung around long enough to be cajoled into giving his name to the bus company. And he was extremely reluctant.

Maybe more will be done about it now that cats are being shot with airgun pellets. Cats matter.

Sorry, I mean - people shoot up on my bus all the time.

Let me help:
Headline: world's most violent
First sentence: most violent country in the developed world

Does non-developed violence not count? I suppose it's kind of difficult to conduct phone polls with people who don't have phones.

Here's another bit:
comparable with cities such as Rio de Janeiro, Johannesburg and Tbilisi.
Since when did comparable = worst?

I'm not blind to Scotland's problems. I live here and see the trouble on the streets. Sensationalist headlines making poor conclusions based on flawed research doesn't help.

I see Northern Ireland is living in blissful tranquility. Maybe no-one answers their phones during the marching season because they're too busy setting fire to policemen.

That politicians need to see a report such as this to decide that something need to be done about knives says more about them than the level of violence.

Why is this being reported 5 years after the study ended? Hasn't knife crime fallen in the last two years?

The thing about the figures being "five years out of date" comes Peter Wilson, Scotland's most senior policeman, pointing to the Scottish research having been done early in the study, which was a nine year study in 21 countries. You're just repeating the police's complaints. I can see their motive for doing that, but not yours.

Meanwhile, despite the police complaints about the UN report, figures from Strathclyde Police in July found knife crime in the west of Scotland was nearly four times higher the rest of the UK. No figures available for air gun / bus crimes, but perhaps we have the beginnings of a database here.

The last survey was conducted in 2000. In what way exactly is this information not 5 years old?

My only motive here is to point out that nothing in this report justifies the conclusion that Scotland is "THE MOST VIOLENT COUNTRY IN THE WORLD". That is all. I'm fully aware that there is a serious problem.

I've tracked down the report on the UN website and will digest it further when I get back from having a (hopefully peaceful) drink.

Full text here: http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/reports/ob187i.htm

The booze did more damage than the blade last night so I didn't get round to reading it, though from skimming the summary it seems those reporters have been a bit naughty with the Scotland = Death stuff.

The sample size was 2000 and the response rate averaged 64%. The report writers state that this means they need to allow for a wide sampling error in their estimates. An interesting study nonetheless and I was a bit over the top in describing it as bad research when in fact it was badly reported research.

I'm more rocky than rock this morning but thanks anyway dahlin :-)

Scotland's position on the tables:

Car theft - 10th, below average.
Theft from cars - 9th, above average.
Burglary - 8th, below average.
(the table underneath that one shows Scotland to be below average for burglary with entry but above average for attempted burglary - we're not very good at it :-P )
Contact crime (robbery, sexual assault, assault with force) - 4th, above average (Australia, England & Wales, Canada above Scotland)
Overall victimisation - 6th, above average.

Scotland
Compared to most other countries, car vandalism accounts for a larger part of all crime in Scotland. The same applies to assaults and threats. Thefts of two-wheelers were proportionately unimportant compared to many other countries. There was a fair degree of similarity with England and Wales in the make-up of crime in Scotland.
However, England and Wales was only average in relation to car vandalism, unlike Scotland. And car-related thefts and burglary were a bit more dominant in England and Wales than in Scotland in terms of the share of all crime.
In 1996, car-related thefts in Scotland were above average in terms of proportionate share, whereas in 2000 they are below average. In contrast, contact crime (particularly assaults and threats) comprise a larger share of all crime in 2000 compared to other countries, whereas in 1996 the opposite was true.

"One of the things we can start to do is to have some proper debate," Welsh says. "Despite all our escalating problems, there is almost zero action on social marginalisation, and the problems are repeatedly explained away with references to "neds"... It's almost impossible to have a serious debate about the impact of class structures and continuing inequality on our nation's social problems."

Where did I do that? Did you read the report? Do you still think it's fair to say "Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries"?
(If you could at least answer one of my questions I'd be grateful if it was that last one)

I'm not blind to Scotland's problems. I live here and see the trouble on the streets.
and
That politicians need to see a report such as this to decide that something need to be done about knives says more about them than the level of violence.
and
I'm fully aware that there is a serious problem.

How many times to I have to say that I know there is a serious problem here? I know how bad it is. I see how bad it is. I have personal experience of how bad it is.

How is pointing out that the report *doesn't* put Scotland at the top of the list of violent countries "statistical quibbling"?

If you agree with Welsh that "One of the things we can start to do is to have some proper debate" maybe you should actually engage in a debate rather than standing by the bullshit conclusions that the Times and the BBC make from skim reading a report. Identifying the scale of a problem is part of the process of solving it, saying "we're the worst in the world" doesn't help in any way because it's plain wrong. It's as wrong as pointing out how far down the rankings we are with gun crime and thinking it makes everything okay.

If we're attacking The Times, Rupert Murdoch, sloppy reporting etc rather than the UN, I'm fine with that -- give me a shot with the bayonet right after you're finished with it!

Anyway... addressing what can actually be done about knife crime in Scotland is a tough one.

The government's response seems to be to keep claiming that there are "more bobbies on the beat" and to install more cctv in town centres. It isn't working.

Welsh is right to point out that the government's failure to address social inequalities is a big factor (though being poor is really no excuse for stabbing other poor people).
Drug addiction and the criminalisation of drugs is a huge problem, we have junkies stabbing people to get money to buy drugs from people who stab other people who are trying to sell drugs who stabbed a few people to get them.
I'm not sure if we should be glad that it's the knife and not the gun that is the weapon of choice of your average Scottish nutcase. I assume there are less fatalities per stabbing than per shooting, but on the other hand that itself may be a factor in someone's willingness to use a knife.
Why are knife anmesties always short lived? There was one in my district a few years back where the police ended up with a huge pile of knives, hatchets and assorted ceremonial swords. Violent crime fell dramatically in the following year. So why isn't there a permanent amnesty or at least a period every year that is well publicised as a good time to get this shit off the streets?