"indian burial ground"

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when and where did this meme start?

the "true story" behind the amityville horror = 1974 but i'm not sure if the IBG actually featured before it became a somewhat retooled story

AH film = 1979
(poltergeist = 1982)

anyway wz it cultural coin b4 AH? and if so where?

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

are there any IBGs in lovecraft?

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

i wouldnt be surprised if this arose as early as Puritan literature--fear of wildnerness/indian territory as "evil" or unlawful, the devil's territory, etc. is well documented of course, but the indian burial ground seems a continuation of that into the post-indian future.

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

i'm fairly confident that it's been a horror meme of sorts going back to well in the 19th century, and probably the 18th. can't for the life of me remember the exact sources where i ran into it tho. i mean it makes sense that ppl would have been afraid of them when there were still lots of native americans around and living in close proximity, with their strange religious beliefs and all, etc.etc.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

see also the term "ghost of slavery"

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

i think i ran into it sidewise in some literature on the great lakes region with occasional smart native americans pulling a whole "the spirits of our ancestors" shtick as part of trade and diplomatic negotiations.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

yeah but the settlers displacing the NAs back when they were still unexterminated = not building extended tract-housing suburbs surely?

actually manhattan island must have had a barrel-load of IBGs before it wz built up

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:29 (nineteen years ago)

it seems likely to be the built-in yet unacknowledgable-as-such recognition of the incredibly bad karma involved in the project of exterminating the culture of an entire continent

kinda lost traction as the past century unspooled, though maybe, witness the fight over the tellico dam in east tennessee, the building of which would have (and eventually did) flooded cherokee burial grounds, but nobody particularly cared, so a serendipitously snorkeling biologist's discovery of a previously unknown species of fish in the little tennessee river (the "snail darter") became the lever for activism and the battle was waged in terms of the endangered species act, rather endangered human culture

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:36 (nineteen years ago)

possible also "grip of the past", lurking chaos and mystery and wilderness at the edge of and denied by modern life. poltergeist, et al borrowing and modifying the puritan trope for modern horror purposes.

even more interesting--what does it mean when the excluded other is a spirit/ghost rather than actual person?

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, see for later examples, ghost dance, etc.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

see on one hand that idea (of the RIGHT SORT of NA as the avatar of the noblest soul) goes back to fenimore cooper (note that he is the LAST of the MOHICANS), yet on the other, the entry into the pop-cult of NA-as-better-than-undegraded-us = a 60s thing, more or less post-vietnam (bury my heart at wounded knee; little big man ect ect)

hence my interest

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:44 (nineteen years ago)

also: i'm pretty sure during the explosion of mediumism and seances after the fox sisters' hoax in the mid-19th century, the idea that the spirit guide = a RED INDIAN CHIEF wz quite commonplace

the malevolent ghost haunting gary gilmore's family since the 20s = an evil dead indian, acc.mikal gilmore's shot in the heart

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:47 (nineteen years ago)

mark that's very interesting stuff. it's funny but the "NA as better than US + US as failed paradise" stuff actually goes WAY back. id say the 60s stuff is taking up an already well established idea. unfortunately i cant remember my sources on that though.

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:48 (nineteen years ago)

in other words the 60s stuff (for lack of better terms) has ALWAYS been a part of the discourse i think. interesting though how is it marshalled to make sense of Vietnam, etc.

ryan (ryan), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:50 (nineteen years ago)

it DOES seem peculiar to the US. i mean, i'm not aware of any stories or movies revolving around the theme of, say, some modern-day brit disturbing an ancient jute or viking burial ground; or some germans or poles messing around in an ancient old prussian burial ground; or russians drilling for oil in an ancient samoyed burial ground.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

well yes, it's certainly already there in fenimore cooper (=1820s?) but i think it moves from being a dissident, critical, minority position to being mainstream in the 60s (counter-culture mainstream at first; then by poltergeist time a handy cartoon readymade)

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

samoyeds as in the PEOPLE called samoyeds, not the DOGS called samoyeds.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

also spiritism in part derives from a corruption of native american and african practices to begin with.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:57 (nineteen years ago)

there's several "disturb my rest at yr peril" stories in m.r.james, but they're all "modern" -- rather than an earlier whole culture -- and the desecrators are pretty much knowingly desecrating

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

haha in "a view from a hill" the guy digs about for unhallowed bones fallen from a long-gone gallows so he can boil em up to make BINOCULARS that SEE THROUGH TIME

(warnin: don't try this at home foax)

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:04 (nineteen years ago)

I have a dumb question, possibly, but are Native American traditions such that there were formal burial grounds, like European church cemeteries, or was this just an assumption on the part of colonizing writers?

haha in "a view from a hill" the guy digs about for unhallowed bones fallen from a long-gone gallows so he can boil em up to make BINOCULARS that SEE THROUGH TIME

I admit I love that story. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:05 (nineteen years ago)

I wonder how many "curse of the mummy" stories were circulating around in Napolean's army when he was in egypt...

kingfish trampycakes (kingfish 2.0), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:07 (nineteen years ago)

when the ghosts frogmarch him off to his grisly doom at the end, his hat falls off and they put it back on his head -- such tidy phantoms! -- and when a neighbour peeks out to see what's goin on, a *something* sez to him (in a voice without a throat!) "put your head back in"

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:08 (nineteen years ago)

Philip Freneau, Indian Burying Ground. from 1787 i think:


In spite of all the learn'd have said;
I still my old opinion keep,
The posture, that we give the dead,
Points out the soul's eternal sleep.

Not so the ancients of these lands --
The Indian, when from life releas'd
Again is seated with his friends,
And shares gain the joyous feast.

His imag'd birds, and painted bowl,
And ven'son, for a journey dress'd,
Bespeak the nature of the soul,
Activity, that knows no rest.

His bow, for action ready bent,
And arrows, with a head of stone,
Can only mean that life is spent,
And not the finer essence gone.

Thou, stranger, that shalt come this way.
No fraud upon the dead commit --
Observe the swelling turf, and say
They do not lie, but here they sit.

Here still lofty rock remains,
On which the curious eye may trace,
(Now wasted, half, by wearing rains)
The fancies of a older race.

Here still an aged elm aspires,
Beneath whose far -- projecting shade
(And which the shepherd still admires
The children of the forest play'd!

There oft a restless Indian queen
(Pale Shebah, with her braided hair)
And many a barbarous form is seen
To chide the man that lingers there.

By midnight moons, o'er moistening dews,
In habit for the chase array'd,
The hunter still the deer pursues,
The hunter and the deer, a shade!

And long shall timorous fancy see
The painted chief, and pointed spear,
And reason's self shall bow the knee
To shadows and delusions here.

ryan (ryan), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:08 (nineteen years ago)

Mark, I seriously would love a story by story take on all the M. R. James works from you. But only if you had the time and I could pay you for it. ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:10 (nineteen years ago)

wow!!

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

wow to ryan and to ned for difft reasons!!

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:12 (nineteen years ago)

ned i love those stories so much: they are SO PERFECTLY WRITTEN -- no one else's come close i don't think

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

maybe i shd do em on FT as a one-by-one (= another famously unfinished FT project!)

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:15 (nineteen years ago)

Sir, I would love it. :-D And agreed, they are masterpieces of precision. I am very glad he never tried a novel, it wouldn't have worked.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

aren't american indians also the unasked-for recepients of a whole dolloped-on english literature of conquest and curses, cf h. rider haggard, which really had nothing to do with them, too? the plundering-of-the-pyrimids yarns, with all the hexes and freaky undead vibes that provokes, seems pretty similar.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 11 December 2005 07:10 (nineteen years ago)

pyramids were invented in the americas! then carried to the "old world" on reed boats -- it's all in "flight 714"

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 11 December 2005 08:15 (nineteen years ago)

I just finished reading a 19th century survey of Native American religious beliefs, and about two-thirds of the tribes covered had prohibitions regarding the dead. It seems the "burial ground as unwise place for picnic" idea already was a part of many tribes' cultures before european colonization.

Anvil Trellis, Sunday, 11 December 2005 08:56 (nineteen years ago)

I think the earliest may be the religous writings of people like Smith and the Campells, that might be my research talking, but JS founded his entire fucking religion on same

anthony easton (anthony), Sunday, 11 December 2005 08:57 (nineteen years ago)

see also the lds mythology around the three nephittes, and Smiths realtionship to spiritism, and Gilmores as well

anthony easton (anthony), Sunday, 11 December 2005 08:59 (nineteen years ago)

are we talking Tintin here, mark?

Ed (dali), Sunday, 11 December 2005 09:19 (nineteen years ago)

are there any IBGs in lovecraft?

haha in "a view from a hill" the guy digs about for unhallowed bones fallen from a long-gone gallows so he can boil em up to make BINOCULARS that SEE THROUGH TIME

Well, there's "He".

(SPOILERS!!)

It's not about an indian burial ground per se - the protagonist of the story's walking around NYC, feeling miserable, and meets a like-minded 18th century buff. Same fellow then goes and shows him his TIME TRAVELLING ABILITIES, which he claims his family learned from a tribe of indians which had themselves gotten it from a mix of their own ancient rites and some dutchman's contributiton to same. His great-grandfather (or something) owned the grounds where they did their rituals and managed to get in on it in exchange for letting them stay there. HOWEVER, a week after he learned the stuff, all the indians died, from some poisoned booze that he gave 'em. Anyway, they do a bit of time travellin', first to the past then to the future (which - surprise! surprise! - consists of a wasteland of monstrous, unspeakable horrors.) Then the indian's ghosts show up and melt him into a black liquid substance.

Lovecraft didn't like New York much.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 11 December 2005 12:06 (nineteen years ago)

are there any IBGs in lovecraft?

I think he mentions weird Indian stone circles in a couple of stories, but there are no "OMG the house is built on an IBG!!!" moments in the stories.

I assume that the IBG thing is a retrospective guilt about exterminating the indians converted into a fear that they might somehow come from beyond the grave to reclaim what is rightfully theirs. I have read it suggested that old world fears of Trolls, Orcs, Elves etc. are the same kind of thing, only in our case the displacees are the Neanderthals.

DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 11 December 2005 12:11 (nineteen years ago)

New BBC4 production of A View From A Hill to be shown this Christmas: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/cinema/features/view-from-a-hill.shtml !

RickyT (RickyT), Sunday, 11 December 2005 12:35 (nineteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure I first encountered this meme in an episode of Scooby Doo.

jel -- (jel), Sunday, 11 December 2005 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

the "true story" behind the amityville horror = 1974 but i'm not sure if the IBG actually featured before it became a somewhat retooled story

AH film = 1979
(poltergeist = 1982)

Poltergeist did not have an IBG! The housing was built on a regular ol' cemetary.

The Shining, however, mentions an IBG!

latebloomer: Deutsch Bag (latebloomer), Sunday, 11 December 2005 15:39 (nineteen years ago)

See also: Pet Sematary (book and movie)

latebloomer: Deutsch Bag (latebloomer), Sunday, 11 December 2005 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.greatposters.com/wilder/aceinthehole.jpg

C0L1N B... (C0L1N B...), Sunday, 11 December 2005 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

I've heard that Scandinavians have always had hangups about pagan Sami (or Lapp) cemeteries, and they're one of the larger immigrant groups to the US... any connection?

andy ---, Monday, 12 December 2005 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

...pagan Sami (or Lapp) cemeteries, and they're one of the larger immigrant groups to the US... any connection?

uh, they are? you mean scandinavians or lapps are "one of the larger immigrant groups"? because there's no way the latter's true.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 12 December 2005 20:28 (nineteen years ago)

No, Swedes, Norweigan etc. represent one of the largest european groups to come to America. Lapps probably not.

My greatgrandmother was a Sami and apparently cut quite a figure in her little Minnesota town... kids thought she was an Indian.

andy --, Monday, 12 December 2005 20:36 (nineteen years ago)

This is a post from a Native American list on Yahoo Groups that unpacks the IBG horror-movie trope and gives more detail about how the IBG story got associated with the Amityville house:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/native_truth/message/86

It wasn't clear if any of the movies listed pre-date the 1975 "Amityville Horror" story.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 12 December 2005 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

No, Swedes, Norweigan etc. represent one of the largest european groups to come to America.

yeah, that's definitely true. never met a sami, so i was a bit confused by your initial post.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 12 December 2005 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

yes it stops short of opening that last bit up, doesn't it? but it's the most interesting aspect, i think -- did the medium who "explained" amityville invent this cliche?

(also it claims that poltergeist IS an ibg) (which i thought it was but latebloomer says no)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 12 December 2005 20:52 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know if he invented it. He very well may have, for all I know. It would be interesting to find out if there are any pulp horror stories that used that device before the "Amityville Horror" movie came out.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 12 December 2005 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

This isn't quite the same device as the typical IBG, but it's a Clark Ashton Smith story from a 1933 Weird Tales about two orchid hunters who explore an Indian burial pit in South America, with rather unpleasant consequences:

http://www.worldofschmitt.com/writings/smith/seed_from_the_sepulchre.html

o. nate (onate), Monday, 12 December 2005 21:09 (nineteen years ago)

Here's an article from the Detroit News about Indian burial mounds in Michigan:

http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=167&category=life

It contains this possibly relevant excerpt:

In a 1956 News article, amateur archaeologist Clair Reynolds told of an elderly Indian who refused to guide him to one of the ancient mound sites, warning: "It is not good that you go to the place of the Yam-Ko-Desh." The Indian insisted that ghosts of the Yam-Ko-Desh, the Ottawa name for the mound builders meaning "the prairie people," still roamed the site.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 12 December 2005 21:28 (nineteen years ago)


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