On All These "I need to lost my virginity/get laid, etc." threads...

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What if the genders were reversed?

I know starting a thread like this is like waving a vagina at Dan Perry, but I'm curious.

Would the reactions, comedy zings, "advice" etc. be much different?

Pretend I'm a 20 year old female virgin (hah, I know that's a stretch) asking if it's OK to not want to have sex - and answer the same questions.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:43 (eighteen years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/RockCFG/Bud_Dwyer.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

How's that "ILX Ignore" function coming along?

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:47 (eighteen years ago)

3. Dead hookers

― to scour or to pop? (Haberdager), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

I was considering making that joke, Louis.

― chap (chap), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:53 (eighteen years ago)

...but only I ~~popped~~ snapped!

― to scour or to pop? (Haberdager), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:55 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think that gender plays that big a role in this discussion. I don't think that it really matters anymore in the sense that, well, what is the difference really? Yet I always ask myself, do people really mean it when they say "Oh, don't worry about it!" but secretly think "Sheesh, still a virgin?"

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:55 (eighteen years ago)

(Then again, I do think that guys tend to do the zings, even when they're part of the group being ridiculed. They just can't help it.)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:56 (eighteen years ago)

I just think it's interesting that there haven't been (in my memory) female started threads on the same topic. Maybe it's a hangover from the era when female virginity was prized, while male virginity was still seen as an embarrassment.

Or maybe it's the passantintone of Nu ILX.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)

Ilxors are happier than pigs in shit to talk about sex, but when it comes to other bodily functions the shutters come down.

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)

I didn't actually know the gender of the original poster on that 'other' thread, which I'm mostly trying to remove from my mind... JSL! Oi am thinking Nath otm.

― Bhumibol Adulyadej (Lucretia My Reflection), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:06 (eighteen years ago)

To some degree I'm sure it is. But I think to some degree this (ILX, I mean) is a locker room and I think most women will feel, insecure isn't the word,... well, insecure about putting their vagina on display in a room that consists of mostly men. Also do we really need to ask for confirmation or advice on how we should feel about the state of our hymen? I mean, I'm fine with someone asking, but I don't need to be told. I'm not sure how other women feel about that.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:06 (eighteen years ago)

I just contradicted myself.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:07 (eighteen years ago)

But I think to some degree this (ILX, I mean) is a locker room

hi dere i'm a reporter may i interview u

― to scour or to pop? (Haberdager), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:08 (eighteen years ago)

Perhaps they would get knocked over in the stampede of pavlov's horndogs.

And the less glib answer is that it comes down to a certain cultural sexism. Men can whine about it all they like whereas women are presumed to have an easy time in the game of love and have their pick of suitors and swains (they don't of course). Women are presumed to be the gatekeepers to their own sexuality whereas men are mere flotsam on the tides of sexuality. All rubbish of course but it seems to be a fairly ingrained cultural perception.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:09 (eighteen years ago)

Wot, do you think that it's ok for men to whine about it? I always figured that it shows they are *not real men*. I'm not using the right words, but I always assumed that our culture (def american culture) wants our men to be *sexually active*, not horny nerds incapable of getting laid. (God, migraines can be a killer on expressings one's stupid thoughts...)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

> I just think it's interesting that there haven't been (in my memory) female started threads on the same topic

there have been threads here. it was handled pretty sensibly as well iirc.

― My Koogy Weighs A Ton (koogs), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

Really? I can't remember (read: I actually am not that interested in someone's sexual (in)activity.)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)

(To myself: so why do I keep reading these threads?)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)

It seems far more culturally acceptable for men to whine about it. Should the do so continuously, not whilst I'm about.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)

Honestly, I would make exactly the same jokes if I didn't think the question was phrased in a sensible/sincere manner regardless of gender. I am very egalitarian that way. I'm now trying to figure out how to make metajokes about the meta subject but I only woke up 40 minutes ago so I can't think yet.

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

I want to believe Ed but I don't think it's nothing but 'cultural perception'. Exaggerated perhaps, but there's still plenty of truth in that.

If we're only concerned with "the game of love" yeah, it's difficult for all, but we were talking about teh sexing first & foremost.

― fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

But I think to some degree this (ILX, I mean) is a locker room and I think most women will feel, insecure isn't the word,... well, insecure about putting their vagina on display in a room that consists of mostly men.

Yes, I think this is quite true about why there is not more female discussion of it. To ask the question in public would be to attract entirely too much of the wrong kind of attention.

Also, Ed - women as gatekeepers of sexuality? I think that's an interesting metaphor. It's more often implied that women are "supposed" to be passive recipients of (male) sexuality, rather than the actual agent of their own sexuality.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:27 (eighteen years ago)

There actually is a female virginity thread (well sort of) from way back in 2002 or something. I'm not reviving it though because it is full of mentalism.

My suspicion is that people would be a bit more sensitive overall and most zining would be at the expense of the male creep that would inevitably pop up.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:29 (eighteen years ago)

I think Ed's talkin about the "it's the women who choose" dating cliche, which is fairly widespread, I think mainly because it's usually true! Women may be "recipients" but the man to be given the go-ahead, in one way or another.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

More proof that I'm a boy, I guess.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

I think the more indie (or post-femmenist) you get the more the male becomes passive (and alone) and the more the woman is supposed to become more active.

The reality is, or should be, where activity is equal on both sides and silly cultural games (or rules) are discarded and people just get on with it.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:31 (eighteen years ago)

Uh, and now in English: Women may play the role of "recipient" of male sexuality, but the man has to be given the go-ahead by HER, first, in one way or another. This way can be very very subtle, of course. Like putting his hands on her ass. (This isn't always the way of course but it often feels that it is.)

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:33 (eighteen years ago)

that isn't the reality.

xpost

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:33 (eighteen years ago)

The reality is, or should be, where activity is equal on both sides and silly cultural games (or rules) are discarded and people just get on with it.

Or *don't* get it on. With it. As the case may be.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

Really? I can't remember (read: I actually am not that interested in someone's sexual (in)activity.)
-- Nathalie (dotdotdo...), Today 7:14 AM. (stevie nixed) (later)
(To myself: so why do I keep reading these threads?)

-- Nathalie (dotdotdo...), Today 7:14 AM. (stevie nixed) (later)

Thanks for contributing my thoughts for me Nath!

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

Losing your virginity does not ALWAYS equal sex.

"Pretend I'm a 20 year old female virgin (hah, I know that's a stretch) asking if it's OK to not want to have sex - and answer the same questions."

Where to begin. A 20 year old female virgin asking a question that might insinuate coercion is valid? How about: A 20 year old female virgin who has been raped? A 20 year old female virgin who has been sexually abused? Where are you coming from!

Asking? pretend? Not want to have sex! That's the rub!

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:57 (eighteen years ago)

No one asked whether the 20 year old boy who wanted to know if it was OK not to want to have sex had been raped or abused or otherwise coerced. Interesting.

― Shoes and Shoegazeability (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 13:59 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost :-) It was this or searching for a knitting pattern.

I do find it intriguing though! I mean, the whole virgin/getting laid thing. You're not s'posed to have fucked too much - or else you're a slut - but on the other hand if you're a virgin, you're a bit... y'know... inexperienced or whatever. I mean, what's the amount of people you should have fucked? 3 for a girl, ten for a guy? :-)

Losing your virginity does not ALWAYS equal sex.

:-(

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

xxx huge xxpost.

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:02 (eighteen years ago)

i think I addressed those topics - rape and coercion.
But this is probably another xpost.

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

There's no boy in your premise.

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

WoW! I just realized that the premise is from a woman! Congratulations!
I am an idiot.
i still stand behind everything i said.
Warm and cuddly wymyn thread for now, i suppose. Hugs! Sorry!

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

Does the gender of the originator of the premise matter?

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

Yes it does - that is the point that I'm trying to make. That the gender of the person asking the question very decidedly shapes the responses given.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:31 (eighteen years ago)

I think the fact that many people don't notice/don't care proves that it doesn't always.

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

Pretend I'm a 20 year old female virgin

I already was.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

I suspect that "don't notice/don't care" often boils down to "assume that the poster is male".

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:33 (eighteen years ago)

perhaps, because it seems women are less likely concerned about it if they are in a similiar situation.

But unless a woman made it a point to stress that this situation troubled her *because* of her gender I doubt it would change my response.

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:35 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry, does the fact that it is a woman suggesting that it would be different for a woman, rather than a man suggesting it would be different for a woman, posting one of these threads make a difference as it seemed to to aimurchie. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:37 (eighteen years ago)

so confused now. . .

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:40 (eighteen years ago)

yes they do. I put up exactly the same profile on okcupid again, but this time as a female, i got 38 messages in one day.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

when the male one gets one message in 38 days, if it's a good month-and-a-bit

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

guys be horny.

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

i think aimurchie was interpreting "is it OK to not want to have sex" as "is it OK to say no" rather than "is it OK to go against the grain of a hypersexualized society that shows every sign of worsening", is the thing

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:43 (eighteen years ago)

I know starting a thread like this is like waving a vagina at Dan Perry, but I'm curious.
***
Ilxors are happier than pigs in shit to talk about sex, but when it comes to other bodily functions the shutters come down.
***

Perhaps they would get knocked over in the stampede of pavlov's horndogs.

― Fleischhutliebe! like a warm, furry meatloaf (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

guys be horny.

yes exactly!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

I no longer even know where this thread is going.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

it kind of got a bit weird. tracer's post explains how.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

I no longer even know where this thread is going.

does this suggest that the thread was actually going somewhere at one point?

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

Let's not be hasty.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

I was coming to some kind of conclusion, so perhaps.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

I still want to know if aimurchie was surprised that this thread was stated by a woman or that the premise (i.e. the gender reversal) was surprising, i.e. the 20 year old virgin was a woman.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

The conclusion I have from reading this thread is that yes, I make such kneejerk judgements and treat this question differently depending on whether it was asked by a girl or boy, but that other people don't. Remove the snidemasters (yes, there will be posters left, haterz) and people seem to treat each person individually based upon general rules/guidelines they've built up from their own experience.

You?

― Johnney B English (stigoftdump), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

don't think there would've been any major difference in terms of conclusions, behaviour, attitudes, responses.

― vita susicivus (blueski), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

Also do we really need to ask for confirmation or advice on how we should feel about the state of our hymen? I mean, I'm fine with someone asking, but I don't need to be told. I'm not sure how other women feel about that.

nathalie otm.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Instead of starting a meta thread, maybe I should have made a fake log-in and started a logged out thread, and then we'd see, but now I obviously can't do that now.

But you can never prove anything but the things you already suspected by going meta. Oh well.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

I just went to read the female-started 2002 thread and I think it was handled a bit differently, at least at first, (more serious but not always in a good way) but I can't work out whether it's a gender thing or whether it has more to do with the specific posters involved and the changes in ILx over time.

― Sundar (sundar), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

I'm glad you called me out on that, Ed. I think I was surprised to discover (because I don't always look at the monikers of posters) that it was a woman asking...and I definitely had a knee jerk feminist reaction. It makes me more thoughtful of how I should deal with gender. And this forum. Thanks!

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:27 (eighteen years ago)

But surely the question about gender reversal is valid whether a man or a woman poses it. It is an interesting one because the school of thought that says women have no problem 'getting' men is a mild form of 'she was drunk but clearly gagging for it, m'lud' line (which is the subject of some debate around Rap laws in the UK. It's an interesting perception though because it suggests that women hold all the power until it is overcome by guile, gamesmanship, bribery or force.

This is, of course, not how it is for most people (I hope) and certainly not how it should be. Hooking up shouldn't be anything more than two equals who like each other. And no games.

Which doesn't really answer the question. I assume Zingfest plus horndogs.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

Rap laws

Er?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

speaking of whether women have it easy...have we had a thread about leagues? as in, "he/she's out of my league"?

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

wow, no wonder hip hop has yet to flourish across the pond.

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

xpost,

I'm sure we have, but the search is so poor, I'd start another one.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

If people would cateorgorize their threads, finding old ones would be so much easier.

― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

I need to lost my virginity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sv/a/a4/Lost_logo.jpg

(only 16 more days!)

― blotter Budweiser Hackeysadk (nickalicious), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Here's one, Maria: "She's out of your league".

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:58 (eighteen years ago)

please nobody revive that, btw

― TOMBO7 (TOMBOT), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

let's do the time warp again!
it's just a jump to the left....

― aimurchie (aimurchie), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:05 (eighteen years ago)

Ahahaha, I'd forgotten about this post of mine: "...the ones I always think are out of MY league are very put-together boys with their Wallpaper*-esque suits & combed hair -- DETAILS people. This is sort of foolish since, while I'm not Wallpaper*-esque, certainly, but to the extent that I have my shit together at all I AM a details person -- I have accessories galore and match shoes to handbags and all that kind of thing -- but I think I feel untidier than I actually appear. So I'm overawed by very neat & minimally stylish people..."

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:12 (eighteen years ago)

Laurel, go do some work

― UART variations (ex machina), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:13 (eighteen years ago)

Never on Tuesdays.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

The only really key answer to this thread question is that regardless of gender, THE THREAD WOULD STILL COMPLETELY SUCK.

― John Justen is fucking sick of his username (johnjusten), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)

I think it's be less of a zingfest if there were a female threadstarter, that making jokes would be a little harder cos people wouldn't, generally, want to be seen as pressuring a girl to have sex (which is how you could interpret any snark about someone's being a virgin). So it would be a quite a bit more heart-to-heart-y and then it would get awesome crepey and only then, maybe, the zinging.

― ampersand, spades, semicolon (cis), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

so, yeah, what John Justen said.

― ampersand, spades, semicolon (cis), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

Every child had a pretty good shot,
To get at least as far as their old man got,
But something happened on the way to that place,
They waved a vagina in Dan Perry's face.

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 22:01 (eighteen years ago)

man, dan perry gets all the breaks.

― chicago kevin (chicago kevin), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

That "League" thread is still one of the most interesting threads on ILX WRT fancying and attraction, etc. I think.

It came up in Random the other day, and I read it end to end.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, I remember a different thread (it seems) where I'd posited the situation "Anna Friel, or the girl that works behind the bar at your regular place" i.e. in other senses the same person: Out of your league or not?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 11:29 (eighteen years ago)

I thought that thread was about the perceived danger of fancying IRL people as opposed to unattainable celebs.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

(Danger to established relationships that is... though I suppose there are other kinds of danger.)

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 11:33 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, that was it.

Funnily enough, while shopping in Windsor, I did see Anna Friel around. I can safely say she looked quite nice but way off the 'actively fancy' list.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

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