Doctor Who: Classic or Dud?

There are too many great stories to count, but my favourite episode is probably The Ark In Space, or whatever that scary one with the sleeping people in the space station that got eaten by giant bees.

Also, the whole season that was the "key to time" story arc, I can't remember the name of any individual episodes, but just the fact that the Sonic Screwdriver ended up being the key on which the whole universe hinged was pretty damned cool. Plus, I had, like, a huge crush on Adrik, the original indie maths nerd, when I was a pre-teen. Though of all the companions, I think Romana was the coolest, just cause I wanted to *be* her. She was smarter than the Dr, after all. :-)

Funny, cause all the things that people point to, saying it's a dud- abysmally low production budget, lack of special effects, socks with googley eyes glued on for monsters- were all the things that made it endearing. And the quality of writing was just AMAZING- the minimal budget that they had, they spent on getting the very best in sci fi writers to come up with concepts and stories so engaging that you didn't care that it looked crap.

I could go on at length, but I've already outed myself as a geek enough on this board for one week...

"Doctor Who" was far and away my favorite show growing up. "The Ark In Space" is definitely high on my list, along with "The Robots of Death", "Kinda", "The Caves Of Androzani", the whole Key To Time season, "Inferno", "The Mind Robber"... Oh, I could go on and on. Favorite Doc is Davison, mostly because he managed to pull off underplaying the role and comes across as even more powerful because of it. Hell, I'm so into it that I've got EVERY book published in the New Adventures series from _Timewyrm: Genesys_ in the Virgin series through _Vanishing Point_ in the BBC series. (I do draw the line at conventions, though. Even when I was a kid, I thought the entire concept of a Doctor Who convention filled with adults dressed as these characters to be really disturbing.)

Best companions? Without a doubt, Leela, Romana I, Tegan, Sarah Jane, and Turlough. Especially Leela. (cf: fictional characters I've had a crush on)

Classic: the (original) Master, played by Roger Delgado.

Dud: all the stuff with Unit (ur-notion for the Initiative in Buffy? Only rubbish instead of good, obviously), and Pertwee himself (to me = Troughton nut). But Pertwee's ENEMIES were often grate (=Devils, Sea Devils: one of the Devils was called BOD!!)

Ten-ton dud: Tom "Overract why fucking don't you" Baker. But the Gallifrey/Time Lord business was often amusing.

Three-ton dud: Peter Davidson. BUT the ing on the first season of stories (esp. CASTROVALVA, abut timewarps and paradoxes, name taken from a lithograph by ESCHER = overlooked classic)

Hundred-ton duds: subsequent Doctors /Peter Cushing movies

Castrovalva! Was that the one where they were trapped in the scarily moebius strip city that Adrik (ah, archetype of all indie mathsrock nerds of my heart...) discovered that he had mistakenly created with his mathematical formulae?

Oh, and here's a question: K-9, what think you? Super-cool uber gadget who always saved the day, or annoying cutesy ploy, the Dr. Who equivalent of Ewoks?

Man, I have always wished that I had a sonic screwdriver!

Castrovalva and Adrik: very possibly correct — of course, this era Who is NEVER repeated (cuz supposedly a decline on Pertwee/ Baker), plus my memory is swirling away like asteroids into a time discontinuity anyway, so I don't recall. Part of my mathrock reason for liking Adrik was that the maths was, erm, not utterly entirely bogus. (mathrock = mathmath in my case...)

Jo = my major crush-assistant, I suppose. Can't be: she always screamed and wuz scared. Who was the one who ACTUALLY DIED? Played by Jean Marsh (later of Upstairs Downstairs). Or am I tripping?

GOT IT! My major crush assistant was Zoe!! (This too is a Wow-factor thing...)

Sub-thread Q: lamest Dr Who assistant?

Mark is right - it's your second. Peter Davison in my case. This theory probably falls down if applied to any post-Davison due to transcendental awfulness.

Jean Marsh played Sara Kingdom in "The Dalek Masterplan" and has the distinction of being the only companion to join and die in the same story. (Of course, "The Dalek Masterplan" went on for 16 episodes or something like that...)

"Castrovalva" is definitely the one where the Master uses Adric to generate a trans-dimensional mathematical construct solely to trap a confused and newly-regenerated Doctor.

Patrick Troughton rocked the house as far as I can tell. The only stories of his I've really seen are "The Mind Robber" and "The War Games", though, so I don't have enough evidence to knock Davison outof the top spot. The Yeti were SORELY underused, though.

Frasier Hines, who played Jamie, was also on "Upstairs, Downstairs".

The Doctor had three companions die during the television series; Srar Kingdom, Katarina, and Adric. The books added Liz Shaw and Roslynn Forrester to this list, plus the Brigadier is now living out the rest of his life in an alternate dimension populated by faries. (No, really.)

The misfortune of the Peri character was teaming her with the sixth Doctor. Either forceful, grating personality could have worked, but both together were a SHOCKINGLY bad idea. Interestingly enough, the new fiction line has managed to not only completely salvage Peri and the sixth Doctor, but also the hideously misconceived Melanie Bush, who has gone from being a chirpy nightmare to one of the more capable people the Doctor has travelled with.

Worst companion? Victoria Waterfield, aka the extremely wet Victorian girl whose sole function was to scream, "Help me Jamie!" at every opportunity. They replaced her with Zoe for reason, folks...

No, but that would have been awesome! More sad fannishness:

Sixth Doctor, "Trial of a Timelord". The Doctor gets taken outof time by the Timelords and put on trial for being a general menace to the universe. As it transpires, he was pulled out of time as he was rushing to rescue Peri from having her brain sucked out and replaced with one from a slug-like dictator. Therefore, he wasn't there to save her and she was killed, becoming an evil pod person. The companion who ended up replacing her, Mel, was played by Bonnie Langford.

(At the end of the trial, it's strongly hinted that Peri was actually saved by one of the people fighting the evil slugs and ended up marrying him, which is why I didn't list her amongst the dead.)

And he had a soft spot for Jo. There's a scene in "The Green Death", at some point after she announces her engagement to Dr Jones, where he glances at her as if to say 'if I were ten...fifteen years younger'. Quite touching really.

The VERY FIRST companion was Susan, who was the doctor's DAUGHTER? No? She was interesting, it being 1963 and therefore pre- pop, let alone pre-Kate Millett: cuz she was SUPER-CLEVER, and the earth-boys were baffled and threatened and intrigued by this. But I don't remember her to look at since (a) B/W episodes never repeated; and (b) her character/look is overlaid by things I much later read in ancient second-hand TV comic-books and by the very repeated film with Bernard fucking Cribbins in it). (BC = cool, just not appropriate to this story...)

But I do remember a scene with her in it, which is poorly revisited in the film, when the white bedford van she is in (driven by a dalek-resistance soldier) is strafed by the giant dalek ship. Cuz where I lived and where my dad worked the staff van was a white bedford van, and when I was in it, I often used to check out that there was enough foliage near enough that I could jump out of the van — as Susan had — and roll to cover into it, shd the dalek ship appear and begin strafing.

That is all. (That is enough...)

An episode of Fireball XL5 gave me the all- time nightmares-for-week spooking, though.

My memory of this is hazy, despite being told this story dozens of times in my youth, but by all accounts he was very nice, askign K9 why he wasn't in the tardis, who his friend was and so on. What a nice chap.

Best series Genesis of the Daleks, but only cos a friend did it as a one man show. His interpretation of Davros was jumping around in a frying pan, tom Baker was a pan on the head.

tom Baker was the best imho.

Ace was very annoying though, and janet what's her name from Blue peter

Anyway, Jo (Katy Manning) destroyed and stomped on my pre-adolescent heart by marrying the dull Sgt. Benson in the Pertwee/Unit days. I've never ever recovered, never will and don't want to. A goddess.

Great call on Roger Delgado. A scary mutha in a very English way.

Mark: my school library also always had the Mail. The librarian was a self-described "true blue" Tory, hmmm, what a surprise ...

Taking sides: Peanuts vs The Perishers

Did you all see the mid-90's TV movie with Paul McGann and Daphne Ashbrook? Any comments?

There's a great Doctor Who book floating out there called _Interference_ where the Doctor runs into an enemy who completely FUBAR's his past timeline. I love that idea and I'm kind of bummed out that the show never really exploited that aspect of time travel (ill-conceived Valeyard aside).

Doctor Who assistants - Search/Destroy
The Man That Ruined Doctor Who
Doctor Who Weekly/Monthly comic strips - Search/Destroy

MIND FITE!!!

Castrovalva is rubbish though!

The VERY FIRST companion was Susan, who was the doctor's DAUGHTER? No? She was interesting, it being 1963 and therefore pre- pop, let alone pre-Kate Millett: cuz she was SUPER-CLEVER, and the earth-boys were baffled and threatened and intrigued by this. But I don't remember her to look at since (a) B/W episodes never repeated

I remember the surviving B/W episodes being shown on UK Gold when UK Gold first started, in the early 90s. I think Susan told everyone that she was the doctor's granddaughter, but this might just have been a ploy to explain why he was her guardian to boring Earth people.

My favourite Doctor Who related thing is probably Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, a Douglas Adams novel put together from late-70s Doctor Who scripts that were never broadcast. (as was the third Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy book)

Exquisite. Simply... exquisite.

Tico - The BRANE OF MORBIUS should only be attempted after a couple of cans of RELAXANT in my opinion cos it is very silly. Also you will be annoyed by the rubbish assistant who falls over a lot. The priestesses are brilliant. But yes I am up for DOCTOR ACTION.

Secret flame! Secret fire!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIBfUAF9otg

This ruled

how much money did ian levine spend to clutch cargo the loose canon recon of "the traitors" lol

What's the traitors?

the daleks' masterplan episode 4, he's very upset on twitter that the "ai" version of it he had put together leaked. it's got a certain amount of creepypasta horror to it, seeing william hartnell with great big anime girl eyes is certainly a thing that happens here

Says it all… pic.twitter.com/thuiDnvEnl

— Richard Bignell (@NothingLane) May 5, 2024

Apparently Levine is paying £2000 for each of his “someone makes a head wobble on a photocollage someone else made in 2003” reconstructions

It’s been going on for over a week now but there’s a Matt Smith/House of the Dragon fan on twitter who started watching his Doctor Who era without knowing anything about the show beforehand and it’s been delightful following their reactions

my dr who watching experience (its gonna be chaotic sorry not sorry): a thread pic.twitter.com/s3uuTvofcS

— jeje (@daemonsmatt) August 19, 2024

She’s also been very good at picking up themes and insights on the show as it progresses. Up to s7 now

It’s so cute!

she just got to the end of Amy/Rory and is in absolute pieces. poor girl didn’t know what she was getting herself into

that's a lot of dead rories to get through

I've been hoping Moffat knew about the thread, to see how much the twisty-turny clever-clogsing only enhanced and supported the emotional narrative for this first-time viewer... and indeed he popped in to lightly snark at someone in the replies a couple of days ago.

Sounds like she's finally taking a break before The Snowmen and the 2013 eps, which is a relief!

Some years ago I bought the question mark vest the 7th doctor wears from the Doctor Who Experience because it looks interesting. This year I am faced with actually having to come up with a Halloween costume, and not wanting to be a COMPLETE poser I've been watching Dragonfire to acquaint myself with the man. It's a lot of fun! Don't know what the doctor and story's rep is in the fandom. Absolutely loved him trying to distract a guard with talk of existentialism and phenomenology only to have him one up him with talk of semiotics. Ah, the 80's.

Dragonfire is a good combination of intentionally funny bits (the guard discussing semiotics, Glitz managing to get his zombie-fied crew member who's trying to kill him to remember who he is and it just making the zombie want to kill him more) and unintentionally funny bits (the dramatic monologue Kane delivers to the rubbish statue - Edward Peel really acts it well, which just makes the cuts to the statue's face funnier)

I hadn't seen anything from that era yet and it does feel a lot faker compared to both modern CGI Who and the 60's stuff, which through being grainy black and white empty feeling somehow makes the sets feel less obvious. But it works for this storyline at least.

I enjoy the influx of ideas in the McCoy era, where the show isn't just running its own tropes into the ground.

A lot of the writers were first-timers, so many of the stories have that "here's every idea I've ever had crammed into one script" vibe. The concepts are generally interesting, the execution varies wildly on a spectrum of competent to woeful. It frequently feels like no-one involved quite has the chops to pull off what they're trying to achieve. But there's a lot of creative energy there, unlike pretty much the rest of the 80s.

Dragonfire does also have Kane's melting head, which is a pretty incredible bit of telly SFX for 1987. I think I missed the episode at the time, or I'm sure it would've been seared in my memory forever.

IIRC I don't think any of the McCoy stories are good all the way through, except maybe Remembrance of the Daleks. Even the best ones, like Ghost Light and Fenric and Happiness Patrol, have patches that are incrediblly shoddy or rushed.

I do like the general creepiness of the McCoy era, which feels unique. It's not horror like the 1970s, it's just... off somehow. Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol and Greatest Show (and probably some of the others) are all very unsettling - like everything is tarnished and the universe is winding down for good. RTD also seems to enjoy tapping into that vibe.

Ghost Lovht as televised makes absolutely no sense. I read the novelization first and was really excited to see it but so much of the story relies on internal monologue that watching it on screen is an exercise in watching inscrutable people doing inscrutable things for seemingly arbitrary reasons.

Yeah it’s one that’s lost something in rewatching - when I first saw it I loved all the creepy/mysterious scenes in the first couple episodes and there seemed to be so much going on under the surface but then when they do start to explain things it’s mostly pretty stupid and nonsensical. Still has some great bits though!

love Silver Nemesis, but that may be due to it being one of the few I had on VHS as a 12 year old, along with Tomb Of The Cybermen and Remembrance

Little plug for my Doctor Who podcast, which relaunches today as an audio show via all the usual channels (Apple, Spotify) and also now in a video version on Youtube. Weekly episodes dropping every Friday from today, kicking off with an in-depth look at Blink.

We've carved out a bit of a niche taking a political/socio-historical view of Doctor Who, but with lots of dumb jokes to stop it getting too dry - hopefully should appeal to some people here!

Cool, will try out!

I am friends with Christel D, would you like me to share it with her?

I am friends with Christel D, would you like me to share it with her?

Thank you Suzy, that would be very kind and much appreciated!

The War Games, colourised, edited to 90 mins with a new score, just in time for Xmas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0u20oUdQZs

In 45 minutes, Boom is being streamed on youtube with Moffat doing a 2020-style tweetalong commentary

90 minutes down from what, probably around 280 originally? That's a pretty major chop.

It recently occurred to me I've seen no less than three Doctors out and about in London, all many years ago...

7 - Having a drink with I'm assuming his grown up kids in the Boston Arms in Tufnell Park

9 - Marching across Hampstead Heath with a pram, very intensely practicing lines

11 - Post-announcement but pre-Eleventh Hour, watching the footie by himself in a Camden pub, no doubt aware it was one of the last times he could do so unbothered

Has anyone else sighted any wild Doctors?

It is not as good but I saw Steven Moffat buying Subway in 2004, before the new series had started. He was in Australia for a screen producer’s conference and I considered going up to him and telling him I was a fan and that I was excited about the new show. But I thought I would give the man his lunchtime privacy.

Not long after he penned a column for Doctor Who magazine where he described a fan coming up to him in the wild and wishing him well with the new show, and how great and wonderful and special that was. Ah well.

I also chatted to a fella in a post production house reception about the difficulty of getting a cab, and realised afterwards that it was Turlough.

Two at my late friend’s very sad and very packed funeral: 5 and 10 (this was before 14 was a glimmer in RTD’s eye). They didn’t come to the wake so I didn’t speak to either of them.

At the Wembley gig for Blur, my curator friend was getting antsy about where the Hell our pal in charge of aftershow wristbands was. Enter 11, who was leaving, knew my friend, and beckoned us over for a successful wristband-switching huddle a few minutes before our wristbands pal finally appeared. He is SO TALL.

Third doctor opened the local supermarket, as Worzel Gummidge...

Used to see McCoy riding a bike around Pinner when I lived there.

Lucky enough to have recorded T Baker many times between 1996 and 2014, when I worked full-time in a post studio.

He liked coming to our place (lucky for us) and used to pitch up early to sessions with snacks for the front of house boys and girls, (v generous and thoughtful chap) he would either hold court in the reception or sit quietly in his Aquascutum raincoat reading plays in French.

Never really experienced his famous truculent side, although he would employ the famous 'I can make whippet shit sound like Shakespeare, squire' quote when he felt that some Clem Fandango ad type was calling his acumen into question.

Our place used to do the DVD commentaries for years, so I saw loads of classic-era people floating about.

Christopher Eccleston, struggling to use the self-checkout at Crouch End Waitrose.

i would help him

<3

Was tempted! Oh, and my toddler picked up the wrong water bottle at a playground once, and it turned out to be 13’s kid’s bottle. She was very nice!

!!

Oh, I have a good Doctor in the wild story!

I was in a semester-long undergraduate creative writing workshop with 11 at UEA in 2002. A writer named Paul Magrs was the senior instructor. Well, I seem to remember that he was a senior-ish instructor, and that a junior-ish instructor ran the day-to-day lessons. Neither of the instructors nor future Doctor 11 liked me, an American, who they felt had elbowed their way into his otherwise very English course. Magrs talked allusively about work he was doing on radio with Iris and the Doctor, who I did not know were fictional characters. I was embarrassed to inquire which Doctor, who I presumed to be another lecturer. I was also saddened for Iris, who I heard lived on a bus.

On my workshop day, I submitted parts of an Updike-inflected story provisionally named 'Below the Bleachers.' The man who became 11 hated this story, because I hadn't included 'a single bleacher in the piece, nor really any other working man.' Paul Magrs and the junior instructor laughed at both of us: 11 for not understanding that 'bleacher' was an American word for sports seating, and me, for having such a lame title. After class, 11 and I agreed about how terrible the teachers were. I don't think we spoke again.

90 minutes down from what, probably around 280 originally? That's a pretty major chop.

― JimD

I'm surprised that they're leaving so much in! I've seen the first episode and the last episode, both of which are great. Whenever I try to watch anything in between, it just seems like pure padding. Try as I might, I'm not able to glean anything of significance from it. I have an easier time trying to watch "Frontier in Space"!

I'll have to check it out upon release to see if I can stay awake through it!

Having attempted to read a Paul Magrs book, I would say he is a terrible twee writer.

I saw Sylvester McCoy in an Italian Straw Hat in the mid 70s. I think I had the poster up for a few years afterwards. It was in a theatre in Stratford East London.

Recently watched and quite enjoyed The Visitation, mostly for the full throated thespian aiding the crew. Gone back to Warriors Gate now (jumped ahead without finishing).

Oh, I have a good Doctor in the wild story!

I was in a semester-long undergraduate creative writing workshop with 11 at UEA in 2002. A writer named Paul Magrs was the senior instructor. Well, I seem to remember that he was a senior-ish instructor, and that a junior-ish instructor ran the day-to-day lessons. Neither of the instructors nor future Doctor 11 liked me, an American, who they felt had elbowed their way into his otherwise very English course. Magrs talked allusively about work he was doing on radio with Iris and the Doctor, who I did not know were fictional characters. I was embarrassed to inquire which Doctor, who I presumed to be another lecturer. I was also saddened for Iris, who I heard lived on a bus.

On my workshop day, I submitted parts of an Updike-inflected story provisionally named 'Below the Bleachers.' The man who became 11 hated this story, because I hadn't included 'a single bleacher in the piece, nor really any other working man.' Paul Magrs and the junior instructor laughed at both of us: 11 for not understanding that 'bleacher' was an American word for sports seating, and me, for having such a lame title. After class, 11 and I agreed about how terrible the teachers were. I don't think we spoke again.

― mildew and sanctimony (soda), Saturday, 30 November 2024 01:17 (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ha, I went to UEA and studied under Margs too - only actually met him maybe twice. Graduated '01. Had no idea Smith was an alumnus till just now!

My podcast co-host (and friend tbf) once sat opposite Tom Baker on a train journey in Kent about 20 years ago. He struggled to think of anything to say, so waited for his stop and just said "It's been a wonderful journey" as he got off.

I saw a McGann in the Royal Festival Hall cafe once, and I think it was Paul, but it could have been Joe.

I saw David Tennant at an ice cream shop in Larchmont once but the only interesting thing about that story is my last name is Tennent.

And his isn't.

Sorry, I realise now that I posted that looks as though I was picking on your spelling, but I wasn't! I actually meant his real name is David McDonald.

Which is crazy because my real last name is McDoneld

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4b9QoEXHDg