Who are the best/most important underground hip-hop artistes?

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I guess I know a lot of the names by now, but I'd like to see--not a comprehensive list, but a guide to some of the best, or to your collective favorites (keep it collective--PEACE). Who is out there not rapping about killing bitches and not telling the world to suck their dick, but still making something that sounds better than the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy (sp?) did? If you could also give a quick description, or give some sort of breakdown into stylistic families, that would be good.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 3 November 2002 01:47 (twenty-three years ago)

I can see this thread descending into complete and utter carnage. If you believe some people here, NO underground hip-hop is any good.

I nominate Mos Def (virtually everything he's done) and the first half of the Dead Prez album. I've never really seen the appeal in Anti-Pop Consortium, Cannibal Ox, Company flow and friends. The Roots have had their moments, and Automator would be great if he didn't have such fuck-awful taste in collaborators.

Jurassic 5 and Ugly Duckling and friends bother me though, even the tunes I like. Listening to rappers about which kind of hip-hop is best is almost as annoying as reading ILM threads about which kind of hip-hop is best.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 3 November 2002 23:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Buck 65.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Sunday, 3 November 2002 23:31 (twenty-three years ago)

ugk

― ep, Sunday, 3 November 2002 23:46 (twenty-three years ago)

prince paul, even though he still raps about gang life, has great flow and intelligent lyrics; I recommend "handsome boy modeling school" by PP and Dan the Automator, along with loads of guests.

Kool Keith has great rhyming skills but is not for the faint of heart, his tracks can be quite graphic.

The Goats "tricks of the shade" is also interesting, I really like the production and the lyrics are politically inspired with good rhymes; also funny, the album revolves around a theme of working in a carnival (but is not anything like ICP so don't let that scare you off).

I don't know how "underground" any of this is, but you don't exactly see them on MTV or covered in mainstream press...

― webcrack (music=crack), Monday, 4 November 2002 00:31 (twenty-three years ago)

anything with less than100,000 units sold sucks and has no artistic credibility.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 4 November 2002 02:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm glad somebody mentioned Dead Prez, not because I like him--or even know what he sounds like--but I read something recently that made me curious.

For those who don't know: I don't ordinarily listen to hip-hop, but used to listen to it quite a bit. Borrowing "The Marshall Mather LP" has made me interested in hearing more of it again, but something less potentially offensive. Maybe I should just buy the "clean" version of mainstream hip-hop CDs. Sigh. Obscenity per se doesn't bother me.

How about this Doctor Octagon guy? I like the name.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 4 November 2002 03:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Dose One. Gonzales.

― Charlie (Charlie), Monday, 4 November 2002 04:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Mike Ladd, start with the live in paris album, it's phenomenal. He finished the Majesticons album but it hasn't dropped yet.
Cannibal Ox is the shit. All the guys on definitive jux are top of the heap, but I can't feel Aesop Rock for some reason. Dalek & Clouddead are like noise directions & murky beats with non hip hop reference points. J-Live, Thirstin Howl III, Wordsworth, Brooklyn Academy, Pumpkinhead, Yak Ballz, Copywrite. ..

― autovac, Monday, 4 November 2002 04:28 (twenty-three years ago)

congrats to all, this thread is hilarious

― Stuart, Monday, 4 November 2002 04:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Dr. Octagon = Kool Keith. Highly recommended. El-P is a pretty good place to start too (solid material, runs the best label in hip hop).

-
Alan

― Alan Conceicao, Monday, 4 November 2002 04:44 (twenty-three years ago)

dead prez are best when they do jams with 'ironic mainstream' production, im a african is some crazy bugged out timbaland shit, i love them but theyre kinda spotty, doc octagon is ok but not realy worth it i think,

― ep, Monday, 4 November 2002 05:50 (twenty-three years ago)

there's a good ep's worth of stuff on the doc oc record.

i kinda liked black elvis. and the first antipop record. i really like 1/2 of the dead prez album. can ox has aged badly.

yo, e what was that rjd2 song we both liked on tha def jux sampler thing?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 November 2002 06:07 (twenty-three years ago)

haha i really did mean to write "that" no "tha def jux sampler thing". good god.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 November 2002 06:13 (twenty-three years ago)

'i really like your def jux baby tee' i think, 'let the good times roll pt 2' is better though, rjd2 is good at pushing hiphop dudes buttons in the most guiltiest ways, i dont want to jock him so bad!!

― ep, Monday, 4 November 2002 06:14 (twenty-three years ago)

no = not.

jesus christ, graham, where's the "fuck it, you know what i mean" feature on this bitch.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 November 2002 06:14 (twenty-three years ago)

FIYKWIM, you mean? Well, there it is...

― Charlie (Charlie), Monday, 4 November 2002 06:46 (twenty-three years ago)

-Dr. Octagon/ Kool Keith
-Deltron 3030/Del tha Funkee Homosapien
-Non Phixion
-El-P
-Atmosphere (Slug, basically)

I dunno how "underground" any of those are except the last one, but that's about the only rap I listen to. (Cannibal Ox is ok, Aesop Rock doesn't do it for me at all.)

I'm surpised nobody's named MC Paul Barman (smirk).

― Brian the Snorf, Monday, 4 November 2002 09:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Rockist - you could try non-US hip-hop, most of which is underground by default.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 November 2002 10:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Mike Ladd's : Welcome to the Afterfuture has staying power. After a couple of years it still sounds totally fresh and individual.

Anti-pop and Dose One : I like every now and then, but I get bored too.

Techno Animal I get really disappointed by.

The Streets' Original Pirate Material may be one of the most original rap albums this year.

Def Jux / Prefuse I haven't heard enough, but casual listening doesn't tell me how they're very different from more mainstream acts like The Goats or Wu Tang.

So let's suggest

Goats : Tricks of the Shade

and

Method Man : Tical

as two of the darkest, freaky hip-hop albums out there...

― phil jones (interstar), Monday, 4 November 2002 11:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This year, I really liked "It's A Playaz Holiday" by the Bollywood Freaks, a weird little track based around a Boney M sample, which also has the benefit of containing the line "nowadays, it's all about "there's so much ying yang", it's ridiculous".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 4 November 2002 13:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, I thought Dead Prez was a person.

I wish I had the money to casually try out this stuff.

To ask a stupid queztion (I'll keep the typo): is there a difference between "underground" and "undie"? Is "undie" just another way of saying underground, or is it a narrower sub-category? I'm thinking of "underground" as a genre, rather than as an actual condition of being totally outside the commerical world, or something--basically anything that gets away from gangsta rap and it residue (at least when it comes to lyrical content), as well as getting away from bling-bling (though I'm not sure that all bothers me).

Tom, I just thought of that the other day, when I saw a review of some British hip-hop.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 4 November 2002 14:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Is "undie" just another way of saying underground

Yes. A very stupid one.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Monday, 4 November 2002 14:44 (twenty-three years ago)

it's a contraction of "underground" and "indie"

I'm a big big Atmosphere fan. Also, I'm with Jess on the relative merits of Doc Ock; the Dr. Dooom album, though, is my very favorite Kool Keith disc

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 4 November 2002 14:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Blackalicious (extremely poetic smooth-ass soul-funk)
Latyrx (stylistically innovative, vocally and musically)
Kool Keith/Dr. Octagon/Dr. Dooom/etc. (comic book/porno character act)
Del tha Funky Homosapien/Deltron 3030 (conversational & intelligent)
Princess Superstar (white Jewish "Feminem" from NY...but WAY better)
Spearhead (Michael Franti's post-Disposable Heroes full BAND)
Anticon Collective (very experimental sonically and lyrically)
Ugly Ducklings/Jurassic Five (just fun as all get-out, creative too)
Dilated Peoples (heavy message...Public Enemy's little brother)
Definitive Jux (heavy as hell, intense & socially-conscious)
The Roots (hip-hop/jazz BAND on tour 250+ days a year)
Black Eyed Peas (diverse and groovey, backed by a BAND)

― Nickalicious, Monday, 4 November 2002 15:05 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm from Philadelphia. I'm supposed to neglect the Roots.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 4 November 2002 15:17 (twenty-three years ago)

That Mr. Lif, the last EP and I PHANTOM CD, they're both still killing me with how great they are. I can't take 'em off.

― matt riedl (veal), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:28 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, Emergency Rations is excellent. The LP I'm still not sure about (haha I started a thread about it, but no-one posted on it!)

saw Lif, El-P and rjd2 perform live as a trio last night. Pretty good as rap gigs go. Shadow afterwards was just awesome, howevah.

― Jeff W, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom is OTM incidentally. Lots of great French stuff at the moment, some of which has been released internationally.

― Jeff W, Monday, 4 November 2002 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Is the Mr Lif album any good? I was tempted to get it solely on the strength of his haircut.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 4 November 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Is the Mr Lif album any good?
er, back-up two posts, Dom ;-)

One thing that was revealed in my short-lived I Phantom thread was a link to Marcello's review of the LP on Church of Me (but of course). Well worth a read, as I recall.

― Jeff W, Monday, 4 November 2002 18:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh look, another opportunity to mention Poem-Cees.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 4 November 2002 18:26 (twenty-three years ago)

surprised no one's stood up for Freestyle Fellowship (both albums), Haiku D'Etat, and, to a lesser degree -- if only because it's good, but not as much fun -- Aceyalone's solo stuff.

and i'm a huge fan of Rae & Christian, who invite rappers onto their modern northern soul compositions. the Souls of Mischief track on their last album is all kinds of fun, and they did some great stuff with YZ a few years back. it's even more fun live.

and mike ladd's live stuff is fantastic. wish his 'proper' albums were anywhere near as exciting.

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Monday, 4 November 2002 19:22 (twenty-three years ago)

quasimoto - nice madlib production + alien cartoon puppet rapper + green
j-zone - underground emcee whose sentiments are 'fuck underground emcees, pay me'. also: uses vinyl with more showiness than kid koala.
dr. dooom - agree w/ matos, my fav. keith project. cannibalism and outlandish industry hatred.
atmosphere - "Lucy Ford" album for top neurosis w/ smack your face off wit

― Honda, Monday, 4 November 2002 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

princess superstar would be terrible even if her songs weren't all stupid and unlistenable. BUT THEY ARE.

― Stuart, Monday, 4 November 2002 21:05 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't afford anymore CDs anyway. I have to stop thinking about buying CDs. I want more money!

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 02:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Many good suggestions, and Blackalicious are among my 2002 favourites, but the name I'd add is J Rawls - Great Live Caper in particular is wonderful, but there is lots of strong stuff.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 10 November 2002 12:56 (twenty-three years ago)

moles, worms...

― bob snoom, Sunday, 10 November 2002 13:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Del the Funky Homosapien at least deserves some dap (yo) because Both Sides of the Brain was so great. I still can't get into his Deltron 3030 project, and lord only knows if he'll ever come back with something good, but Both Sides ruled two years ago.

And just because an act is "underground" and not on a major label doesn't mean that they're not talking about bitches and telling someone to suck their dick.

And just because someone IS on a major label doesn't mean they are TABATSTSTD. (Blackalicious, Common, etc.)

And I'd like to propose that last acronym for ILM inclusionary status, as this thread pops up with a whole lot of frequentularity.

― Matt C., Sunday, 10 November 2002 14:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ethan - what makes you say that the Dead Prez production is ironic?

I'm A African is by miles the best thing on that album though... unfortunately it tails off madly in the second half by getting ridiculously po-faced and didactic - and the production gets much less interesting?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 10 November 2002 17:12 (twenty-three years ago)

the neptunes are producing the new common! (of course, this will likely not redeem his tapioca blandness, but hey, every little bit, right?)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 November 2002 17:26 (twenty-three years ago)

jess, please tell me you have just told a lie.

― boxcubed (boxcubed), Sunday, 10 November 2002 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

i have not, according to: http://www.pauseandplay.com/cdfront.htm

Common "The Electric Circus" (producers: The Neptunes; first single: "Close to You"; guests: Mary J. Blige, Erykah Badu, Jill Scott, Bilal) (MCA, Dec. 10)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 November 2002 19:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Hasn't that Common album been in the works for about half a century now, with rumours of producers/new directions every week.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 10 November 2002 19:27 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't find Common bland at all, but I'm more looking forward to the new Kweli album.

Also search Planet Asia (well only the first s/t ep which is impossible to find hahaha) and Pharoahe Monche, Aesop Rock, Typical Cats are decent, and Mission: is a fantastic live hip-hop band.

Oh, and Mike Ladd has a live album?!?!

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 10 November 2002 20:45 (twenty-three years ago)

mdc i think partly the idea of the timb pastiche on im a african and especially hiphop was that they were rebelliously copping the style of modern 'soulless' production for their revolutionary bullshit rhymes, check the last half of the record with their ideal vision of the future or whatever and its all weak funk beats echhh, then the big single is mindsex which i liked better when it was called cherchez la ghost!! i dunno dead prez seem like they brought the ill beats its 'ok to like' before indie snob dudes listened to dj /rupture

― ep, Sunday, 10 November 2002 22:46 (twenty-three years ago)

the last time i heard about that common album, ?uestlove said it was going to be "heavily influenced by radiohead and air"

i find it hard to believe that ?uestlove and jaydee aren't going to meddle heavily on any common project

the neptunes should produce FT!

― boxcubed (boxcubed), Sunday, 10 November 2002 23:13 (twenty-three years ago)

a couple of the neptune common tracks have been floating around for a while now, one doesn't really work for me and the other is quite nice, although it's really like a Isaac Hayes monologue for 02 sort of thing.

― Honda (Honda), Sunday, 10 November 2002 23:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Aww Mindsex is so wack, I can't stand it. I love when they use the 'modern' beats (slow beats with lots of inner offbeat syncopation, easy to flow fast and staccato over, you know what I mean), like on the Hip-Hop remix at the end of the record. I suppose I did see it as a little ironic, or at least consciously co-opting that style for their lyrics. Whatever, those are the hottest beats on the record anyway.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 11 November 2002 00:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Buck 65
Dibbs
DJ Signify
Tachichi
The Goods

Sole (especially 'Bottle')
Grassy Knoll

― alex morrison, Monday, 11 November 2002 08:16 (twenty-three years ago)

i listened to some of the solesides comp tonight making a mixtape. it sounded good, especially that freestyle on disc 2 where gab just fucking rips like he never ever seems to at any other time...quit being so "laid back" (is one of the perils of "consciousness" that you become like a big head with little flipper arms and legs unable to work up any motion under yr own power let alone a head of steam?) motherfucker and spit that shit!!...also when latryx cops the "ironic" 80s funk style. even some of the shadow stuff sounded pretty fresh (well, not fresh fresh, but you know what i mean...) how simple it all seemed before endtroducing...

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 November 2002 08:22 (twenty-three years ago)

"princess superstar would be terrible even if her songs weren't all stupid and unlistenable. BUT THEY ARE."

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I'm sorry, this is the funniest thing I've seen on ILM yet...even funnier than someone calling Missy Elliot's music "genius".

Okay, that's enough from me, I'm gonna go back to grooving to "Bad Babysitter". :D

― nickalicious, Monday, 11 November 2002 15:41 (twenty-three years ago)

BUY SOME POEM-CEES SHIT YOU FUXORS (said in a tender, respectful voice)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 11 November 2002 15:43 (twenty-three years ago)

grassy knoll:

http://gka.logoslabs.com

― alex morrison, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 08:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Is this the same Common album that is reputedly influenced by Radiohead and Pink Floyd and friends? Sounds, erm, interesting, in a deathly dull way of course.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 10:42 (twenty-three years ago)

http://llcrew.com/

The Living Legends Crew is (was) perhaps the most talented assortment of individuals in "underground" hip-hop, that I have run across.

Reminds me of old Outkast (virtuosic, melodious, pertinent), but smarter, often more tribal, and with greater diversity of vocal stylings.

― Ryan McKay, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 13:31 (twenty-three years ago)

The new Common album has at least one track featuring Stereolab!!!

― nickalicious, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 15:08 (twenty-three years ago)

um, aren't we forgetting MC Paul Barman?

― ken taylor, Tuesday, 12 November 2002 16:21 (twenty-three years ago)

And MC Stephen Hawking?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I never fully 'got' the LL crew. I get the impression that they are the closest thing to the strawman underground hip hop act where everybody complains how they sound regressive and stuck with bloodless lyricism. Mystik Journeymen have a spark, sure, and the Grouch is down to earth or whatever, but I never understand how they could be so cult worshipped as they were when they were in the bay here.

― Honda (Honda), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 21:06 (twenty-three years ago)

the big single is mindsex which i liked better when it was called cherchez la ghost!!

Which I liked better when it was called "Jack of Spades"!!

Also Jess I don't know what other Blackalicious stuff you've listened to but Gab goes mile-a-minute batshit on a lot of his semi-recent tracks ("Cliff Hanger", "Trouble (Eve of Destruction)", "Chemical Calisthenics", "Sky Is Falling", "Make You Feel That Way", etc. etc.). In half of his tracks he's within a hairsbreadth of '99 Eminem when it comes to cramming tons of words into one line and making it flow right.

nickalicious, Missy Elliott IS genius you big silly! Damn, you're making me from six months ago look like DJ Clue.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Tuesday, 12 November 2002 23:41 (twenty-three years ago)

patrin, youve finally found your patrin

― ep, Wednesday, 13 November 2002 06:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm sorry, I just don't find lyrics such as "ra-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta" to be 'genius' material...just my opinion. The back-masked vocals are kinda neat sounding, and kinda interesting in a hip-hop-heads-ripping-off-Kid-A-"Everything-In-Its-Right-Place" kinda way.

I might have found it 'genius' if I hadn't done songs with back-masked vocals myself more than 5 years ago. :D

― nickalicious, Wednesday, 13 November 2002 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

um, aren't we forgetting MC Paul Barman?

This might be intentional.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 November 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

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