Albert Ayler/Archie Shepp/Pharoah Sanders

archie shepp=> I've got 'live at the panafrican festival' which is him + a group of african musicians. Very groovy!

I'll prob get 'four for trane' next which was his debut.

As far as Shepp goes, I'm really into a lot of stuff he did from about '67-'73 or so. I haven't heard so much later stuff. Here's what I have:

Archie Shepp & The New York Contemporary 5, In Europe (Delmark, DL 409) LP
Archie Shepp/Bill Dixon Quartet, s/t (Savoy, MG 12178) LP
Archie Shepp, The Way Ahead (Impulse!, A-9170) LP
Archie Shepp, Life at the Donaueschingen Music Festival (MPS, BASF 20651) LP
Archie Shepp, Kwanza (ABC/Impulse!, AS-9262) LP
Archie Shepp, Yasmina, a Black Woman (BYG/Actuel, Actuel 4) LP
Archie Shepp, Poem for Malcom (BYG/Actuel, Actuel 11) LP
Archie Shepp, Blasé (BYG/Actuel, Actuel 18) LP
Archie Shepp and the Full Moon Ensemble, Live in Antibes (vol. 1) (BYG/Actuel, 529.338/38) LP
Archie Shepp and the Full Moon Ensemble, Live in Antibes (vol. 2) (BYG/Actuel, 529.339/39) LP
Archie Shepp, Live at the Panafrican Festival (BYG/Actuel, Actuel 51) LP
Archie Shepp, Coral Rock (America, 30 AM 6103) LP
Archie Shepp, Pitchin Can (America, 30 AM 6106) LP
Archie Shepp, Black Gypsy (Prestige, PR 10034) LP
Archie Shepp, Bijou (Musica, 3001) LP
Archie Shepp, There's a Trumpet in My Soul (Arista Freedom, AL 1016) LP

The Bill Dixon split, Poem for Malcom, Panafrican..., and the America trio (Coral Rock, Pitchin Can, Black Gypsy) are probably my favorites. Oh yeah, there's another excellent America disc with Archie and Philly Joe Jones listed as leaders, definitely worth checking out.

As far as other free recommendations, I'd go with the Alan Silva stuff on Actuel. Especially the 3LP one. Very fucking heavy (in the best way).

the last track (a trio as I recall) is the only good thing abt this.

''Does anyone else know anything about these guys? I expected the ILM folks to be able to tell me everything!!!''

there have been discussion abt ayler and sanders. can't use the search option. look! its at the bottom of the damn page!

For a general, quick consumer's guide to Ayler, Shepp and Sanders:

Ayler: Spiritual Unity (ESP, 1964) remains the one Ayler album you must have; a definitive performance, the still overwhelming force of Ayler's tenor being astonishingly and beautifully counterbalanced by Sunny Murray's light-to-the-point-of-invisible percussion - Gary Peacock's bass roving the middle ground and holding it together. There is a terrifying certainty about Ayler's playing here, especially on "Ghosts (Second Variation);" where Coltrane was still striving, Ayler was absolutely sure where he was going. Of his other ESP albums, Bells and Prophecy are now available on one CD; the former is a ragged and distinctly below par 25-minute concert performance, but the latter has Murray and Peacock again, recorded by Paul Haines and playing to an audience of about three (one of whom is very audibly and recognisably Carla Bley) - the performance here is almost on a par with that on Spiritual Unity. When adding more musicians, I always felt that they got in the way with Ayler; Don Cherry augments the trio on the Vibrations album (Freedom, 1965) to no great effect. The title track of Witches And Devils (Freedom, 1964) is an affecting dirge but Norman Howard's cornet can't add much to it. New York Eye And Ear Control (ESP, 1964) is an Ascension-anticipating freeform rave-up with Cherry, Roswell Rudd and John Tchicai, all of whom Ayler cuts through without any effort (and for its full effect, it really has to be heard in tandem with the Michael Snow film which it soundtracked). Only when he added violinist Michel Sampson and brother Don on trumpet was there any move towards a recognisably new ensemble sound; comparisons were made to Bechet's early groups, but, as best heard on Albert Ayler in Greenwich Village (Impulse 2CD reissue, 1999) or Lorrach/Paris 1966 (hat Hut, 1982), this really was quite unprecendented. Hear in particular the tranquil coda of a duet with pianist Call Cobbs which closes the Impulse collection; you could almost be listening to Coleman Hawkins. A graceful exit.

After that, Ayler slipped; his accompanists became less distinguished, and from what I can gather from the interview reprinted in the current Wire, Bob Thiele at Impulse more or less shanghaied him into working with "rock" musicians and "singing." Interestingly, Ayler said that Thiele had wanted him to team up with "America's equivalent to the Beatles" - your guess is as good as mine (the Byrds? the Mothers? the Velvets? the Doors?) but New Grass and Love Cry just sound unconvincing - as though he had been made to record them - and didn't cross over. The later records with the decidedly acquired taste that is Mary Maria Parks' "singing" have their devotees, but to me it's clear evidence that Ayler actually didn't know where to go at the time of his death. Nevertheless, for a late masterpiece, try and find the double vinyl Nuits De La Foundation Maeght on Shandar Records for proof that he could still turn on the power if he wished.

Sanders I have written about elsewhere on ILM, and not long ago either, but briefly the following should all be considered essential: Tauhid (Impulse, 1966), Karma (Impulse, 1969), Izipho-Zam (Strata East, 1969) and Black Unity (Impulse, 1971) catch him at his peak. For further (if much more restrained) investigation, try Jewels Of Thought (Impulse, 1968), Deaf Dumb Blind (Impulse, 1970) and Thembi (Impulse, 1972) to view his gradual but completely logical metamorphosis from free jazz into the mainstream.

It's certainly a well-known belief of mine that in the late Coltrane groups, Sanders had a far keener and firmer grasp of where the music was heading than Coltrane did. The Major Works Of John Coltrane 2CD set on Impulse, which collates both takes of Ascension, plus Om, Kulu Se Mama and Selflessness, will show you how much he did contribute (and observe how, through the involvement of Juno Lewis on Kulu Se Mama, Coltrane never quite relinquished his link with the popular song). Meditations is also vital, as are any of the exhausting but rewarding arenas of Live At The Village Vanguard, Live In Seattle and, for the strong-hearted, the 4CD Live In Japan set.

As a sideman Sanders worked well with Don Cherry on the latter's Where Is Brooklyn and Symphony for Improvisers albums for Blue Note, and less well with Alice Coltrane (again, though, the latter has her defenders and disciples). His most concentrated and torrential work as a sideman comes with his still flattening three-minute blast of rage over Michael Mantler's Beckett-inspired "Preview" recorded with the Jazz Composer's Orchestra on their self-titled 1968 album (a key record in solving the dichotomy between free improvisation and large ensemble composing, also involving Cecil Taylor, Cherry, Rudd, Gato Barbieri and even Larry Coryell).

Archie Shepp - I see the point of him but can't quite trust him. He has always seemed to me like fundamentally a Ben Webster disciple who shoehorned himself into the New Thing rather uncomfortably. Early work with Cecil Taylor's Unit (best documented on the Into the Hot album released under Gil Evans' name on Impulse in 1961; he also appears on one track on The World Of Cecil Taylor, released on Candid in the same year) depicts a player coming to terms with his surroundings, but his background as an actor was crucial in that so much of his subsequent work is hammy and theatrical. Not, I have to say, with the New York Contemporary Five (whose first two albums, though highly recommended, tend to drift in and out of print; on Fontana Records originally in the UK) where Bill Dixon and John Tchicai force him to concentrate on the music far harder; or indeed on Carla Bley's recorded debut, "Roast" (again released under the JCOA name in 1964), where the strength of Bley's thematic material compels him to avoid cliches or undue floridity.

Four For Trane (Impulse, 1964) suggests that he was much happier in a small and deftly organised ensemble. Tchicai, Rudd and trumpeter Alan Shorter (brother of Wayne) appear here in various combinations, but the rearrangements - particularly Rudd's pointillistic recasting of "Naima" - are intelligent (though owing much to George Russell's organisational methodology) and stimulating.

Shepp then gave a reasonably good account of himself on Coltrane's Ascension, though on both takes his solo seems to end just as it's about to get started. Fire Music (Impulse, 1965) has the melodramatic "Malcolm Malcolm Semper Malcolm" but also surprisingly restrained mid-sized ensemble pieces. Altoist Marion Brown is particularly noticeable here; and the ingenious extended harmonisation of "Girl From Ipanema" is very effective. On This Night (Impulse, 1966) deploys a small assemblage of musicians (notably Bobby Hutcherson on vibes) to striking crepuscular effect.

After that, though, things tended to get sloppy in a not very interesting way. The undeniable groove of the title track of Mama Too Tight (Impulse, 1967) really should have been a hit single but the 20-minute "Portrait of Robert Thompson" semi-freeform rant quickly becomes tiresome; note how the Art Ensemble of Chicago at their peak made the same raw material work through greater use of space and dynamics. Live In San Francisco (Impulse, 1968) follows the same pattern; Shepp, trombonists Rudd and Grachan Moncur III, bassist Charlie Haden and drummer Beaver Harris prowl noisily around each other fairly pointlessly and seemingly endlessly. The Way Ahead (Impulse, 1968) was the first evidence of his mellowing, its highlight being the fierce blowtorch blues "Damn If I Know."

Thereafter he retreated to Paris, together with a telephone directory of New Thing players, to record numerous sessions for the BYG label. Of these, "Blase" is the best: the damaged torch song of the title track, sinisterly intoned by Jeanne Lee ("you shot your sperm into me/but never set me free"), is one of the great soul records of the last 40 years. And the straight reading of the hymn "There Is A Balm In Gilead" with Lee's plaintive vocal and Lester Bowie's very Milesian muted flugelhorn, is a beauty. "Yasmina, A Black Woman" is a disaster, however; the large ensemble attempts to recreate the immense drive of Coltrane's "Africa" but Shepp's overly obtuse tenor isn't up to the task. "Live At The Pan-African Festival" is, let us be charitable, an interesting collection of disparate approaches to music making which do not quite gel.

In the early '70s he embarked on a populist phase, aided by the singer Joe Lee Wilson. Things Have Got To Change and Attica Blues were both obviously heartfelt, but while the concept rocked, the reality stank; the large ensembles were so obviously under-rehearsed and slipshod that the resulting music fell into that uncomfortable pit - too sloppy for Motown, too simplistic for jazz. Towards the end of the '70s he did manage to assemble a working big band, including most of the key players on Attica Blues, for a European tour, and the results, captured on a not-easy-to-get 2CD album, are far tighter and effective than the 1972 Impulse original - but there remains an aching void in the middle where the "point" should be. Thereafter, with the occasional leftfield excursion such as accompanying the young Whitney on Material's cover of Hugh Hopper's "Memories" (included on the 1982 One Down album), he settled for being a grouchy hard bopper, a more elemental Hank Mobley, a far less astute Sonny Rollins. These days he believes that hip hop has long since superseded the New Thing as the optimum conduit for political activism in music.

For mid-period examples of how well he could react to sympathetic and unpretentious environments, hear his duet album with Max Roach, The Long March (hat Hut, 1980) or the quiet determination he expresses in his duet with Haden on "Shepp's Way" from the latter's "The Golden Number" album (Horizon/A&M, 1978).

um, must listen to blase again. agree with panafrican in that its not entirely successful but I think its still worth it.

Well I'm very glad you've changed your mind.

did he?

I think I might have to start doing more threads on derek bailey so he doesn't go away for good.

The JazzActuel 3 CD box set put by Charly a cpl of years ago is urgent and key. Contains contribs from many of the major free/out/new new thing players, apart from Albert A, Ornette and Cecil T, inc. truly top-of-the-range tracks by the likes of Sunny Murray, Archie Shepp, Sonny Sharrock, Frank Wright, Anthony Braxton, the Art Ensemble, and Alan Silva's monumental Celestial Communication Orchestra. The box was compiled by Byron Coley and Thurston Moore; the latter's 'Free Jazz List' in Grand Royale 2 is another great map of this music, and should be easy to find OUT THERE somewhere on the interweb. Quite a few of the recs mentioned by TM have now been reissued - notably 'Nipples' by Peter Brotzmann and 'Duo Exhange' by Rashied Ali and Frank Lowe, the latter of which might just be my single fave free jazz rec.

Ayler: The double vinyl Nuits De La Foundation Maeght on Shandar Records that Marcello mentions has been reissued on two diff cheapo CDs and shouldn't be too hard to find. I'm not quite so down on the late Ayler Impulse albs as Marcello maybe is, and 'Love Cry' esp. features the only legit pairing of Albert w/ Milford Graves, the utterly distinctive free jazz drummer who is perhaps heard to better advantage on things like Sharrock's 'Black Woman' alb (finally available again as a Japanese import CD or US vinyl reish), the two New York Art Quartet albs w/ John Tchicai and the massively underrated Roswell Rudd, Paul Bley's wonderful 'Barrage' (w/ Marshall Allen from the Sun Ra Arkestra) and his own solo albs on ESP and (recently) Zorn's Tzadik label.

Shepp: talking of Rudd, again I'd give 'Mama Too Tight' a bit more of a rave-up, just 'cos in places it really gets dense and 'tight', whereas I find things like 'Fire Music' and '4 for Trane' rather thin and even, erm, 'weedy'. There's also v. good Impulse CD reish that puts together tracks by Rudd alongside all of Cecil Taylor's contribs to the Gil Evans 'Into the Hot' rec.

Sanders: Avoid his first solo alb on ESP, which doesn't really deliver the heavy heavy goods, but after that you can't go too far wrong with any of his next six or so recs. And yeah, the Sanders track on the Jazz Composer's Orch alb might just be the most brain-scraping sax solo ever captured on disc. In 1990, Sanders and Sonny Sharrock were brought together one last time by Bill Laswell for the Sharrock alb 'Ask the Ages', which while maybe not as gnarly nasty as their earlier collabs still burns with fire-anger-energy and is unexpectedly beautiful in places, too. (One small correction: Sanders is only on the second Coltrane/Village Vanguard live alb ('Live at the Village Vanguard Again') but he like totally steals the show, although you've got to get the first one too, for Eric Dolphy if nobody else...)

marcello's post is the best on ILM since andrew L's post on the Jazz fusion thread, of course.

This all adds to good stuff to print and tick as I buy it. thanks.

the only other sanders lp i have is thembi, but i havent played that in a long time, i remember not being into it that much before, maybe now though?

ilxor needs to check these guys out

that was a great post by Marcello up there btw

Ayler: I've heard Bells and didn't particularly care for it. Also picked up New Grass, haven't listened yet.

Shepp: I picked up Fire Music the other day, it's really great.

Sanders: Love love love Karma. Also got a couple others, Tauhid and Black Unity. Can't remember much about the former after a single listen, will play again soon. Haven't tried Black Unity yet.

you're in for a trear

a treat, even