"They've gone mad" - the most typically "unrepresentative" albums

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Kiss: The Elder
Sure, they had done their disco album with "Dynasty" in 1979, but still, nobody was quite prepared for them putting together a Broadway/MOR-influenced concept album (a soundtrack album for a movie that never were) in 1981. "The Elder" remains the most hated album among their fans, while several non fans found it quite fascinating.

Rolling Stones: Their Majesties' Satanic Request
Rolling Stones were (and are still) usually an R&B influenced "rawk'b'rawl band". However, for one album, they changed completely and turned into...well... The Beatles...
"Their Majesties Satanic Request" is actually a great psychedelic pop album, but it was "different" to say the least, and again, their fans hated it.

Captain Beefheart: Bluejeans And Moonbeams
Usually, an act may suddenly alienate fans by releasing a "weird" album. Don Van Vliet, though, was always weird, and that's what his fans expected of him. So when he suddenly changed for one album, he did so through releasing an ordinary commercial and slick pop album instead.

Neil Young: Trans
Picking an "unrepresentative" album by a man who has been all over the place musically is a bit hard. However, it must be said that "Trans" was considerably more different from the rest of his output than the 50s rock'n'roll of "Everybody's Rockin'" or the Memphis soul of "This Note's For You". The usually quite "rootsy" country rocker suddenly started making synthpop for just one album. Particularly the vocoder, he seemed extremely fascinated with here. He never got any weirder than this.

Queen: Hot Space
Every single Queen album from the 70s had "No Synthesizers!" written in its liner notes. On "Play The Game" from 1980 there were a few synths present, but the synth was still hardly a prominent instrument in their sound.
Then, suddenly, along comes their disco/synthpop album, "Hot Space", sounding like nothing else they had done before, and more or less crowded with synth sounds and disco beats. The synths would reappear in their later albums (notably on "Radio Ga Ga"), but they would never again dominate a Queen album like this one. Also the extensive use of disco beats (inspired by the success of "Another One Bites The Dust"?) remained a one-off.

Squeeze: Cosi Fan Tutti Frutti
The songs weren't bad here either, it just that "Cosi Fan Tutti Frutti" sounded like a Paul Fucking Young album. Producer Laurie Latham didn't quite seem to have recovered from the "Secret Of Association" sessions, and he used the same synth sounds and bass sounds on this Squeeze album that he had previously used on that Paul Young album. The result is, well... different, from a band that did otherwise not change their style a lot throughout their career.

Any other examples of bands or acts "going mad" and changing their styles completely for just one single album?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 08:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The biggest departrure of late for a band that I've heard is the new Goldfrapp album - Black Cherry.... clumpy, stomping, ugly songs with little or no finesse....sounds like Mud or Gary Glitter could have infiltrated the sessions.

Felt Mountain was one of the greatest debuts of all time, adverts or no adverts.

Black Cherry is undoubtedly one of the weakest follow-ups. Appalling.

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

'10,000 khz' or whatever the f- it was called.

― piscesboy, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

dave q's rant about '10,000Hz' to thread!!

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Metal Machine Music ownz this thread.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 10:04 (twenty-two years ago)

...also, Leftfield..... after the pure heaven that was Leftism (has an album ever dated so little?), to follow it up years later with the travesty that was Rhythm and Stealth, which could have been by an entirely different (shite) junglist combo - terrible.

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't most electronica acts change their style drastically from album to album anyway?

Sure, Air and Leftfield haven't been going on for long yet, but I doubt those particular albums will stick out as very different from all of their other output when they are more established acts with several albums behind them

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Leftfield have been going about 15 years - two albums in that time.... and I wouldn't say that electronica acts, more than any other form of musicians, change their style significantly from record to record. Look at acts like Paul van Dyk, who'sbeen releasing the same record for the past 6 years.....

...and the marked difference between the Leftfield and Air albums to their predecessors will almost certainly be remembered long from now. To say that it wouldn't is belittling the dance scene and its contributors, which is still huge, and continues to grow.

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 11:10 (twenty-two years ago)

but Russ - Geir lives to belittle the dance scene & its contributors

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

aww...... mind you, I've never known whether to take his posts seriously.... does anyone actually really LIKE Kiss? Did anyone, ever?

I had a boss who did, actually, thinking of it.

But he was quite retarded.

So my question is - is Geir being 'ironic' with his musical tastes? Or deadly serious? (sorry Geir).....

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no such thing as being "ironic" with your musical tastes. You like what you like because you like it.

And Kiss Alive! is one damn great record.

― Evan (Evan), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Kiss is OK, but note that these examples aren't all listed because I like them. In fact, I don't like Captain Beefheart at all - finding him one of the most overrated acts ever.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Russ I agree "Black Cherry" is a bizarre follow-up to "Felt Mountain". Even if Goldfrapp are running out of ideas, a mediocre follow-up in the style of FM would at least have kept hard-core fans on-side. But most of BC sounds like a synth-pop band covering songs discarded from a second-rate T Rex album. I think it'll alienate existing fans without winning many new ones. Judging by the big-bucks marketing campaign the band and record company don't agree.

― ArfArf, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Captain Beefheart: Bluejeans And Moonbeams
Usually, an act may suddenly alienate fans by releasing a "weird" album. Don Van Vliet, though, was always weird, and that's what his fans expected of him. So when he suddenly changed for one album, he did so through releasing an ordinary commercial and slick pop album instead.

Once again, with depressing inevitability, Geir gets it hopelessly wrong. The album before "Bluejeans and Moonbeams" is "Unconditionally Guaranteed" which, if anything, is even more ordinary and is certainly every bit as "pop" as "Bluejeans". Not only that but Beefheart wasn't always "weird" - there are pop songs on "Safe As Milk" AND "Clear Spot". Unless you think "Too Much Time" and "I'm Glad" are weird: in which case, you're weird.

― Dadaismus, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim Buckley - Greetings from L.A. (except that the albums after it continued in that vein)

Scott Walker - Tilt

― dleone (dleone), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I think "I'm Glad" is weird (and awesome). It confused me to no end when I was a littler fella than I am now and thought I understood people and music. 15-year old me vs. Capt. Beefheart. He won.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone actually really LIKE Kiss?

*raises hand*

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Nebraska kind of fits this category -- totally lacking in bombastic production or singing or imagery.

I like Kiss. But I'm a classic rock loser, so I'm not proving anything.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"no synthesizers!"
heh-heh! that's fucking great!
there was some similar thing on the liner notes to the first 1 or 2 boston records...

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"radio ga-ga"!!!!
hee! i forgot that one. oh shit, i'm gonna lose it!

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

ArfArf - depressingly, 'Train' has become Goldfrapp's first 'hit' single - and I think Black Cherry is going to be a bigger seller than Felt Mountain.... but I've no doubt that they've alienated their hardcore fans.

Shame, I really thought they had the potential to be a great band, in the same vein as maybe the Cocteaus. Not any more.

I hate everything about the new album - even down to the dreadful artwork, it's hideous.

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

OUTSIDE THE GATE by Killing Joke - The rhythm section of Big Paul Ferguson and Raven having jumped ship, Jaz Coleman turns a solo project into a full-blown Killing Joke album, only this time re-styled as synth-laden prog album with BPMs and time-signatures pre-figured by his new obsession with Numerology. The finished product owes absolutely nothing sonically to anything else the band has ever done before or since, and not a single track from the album is ever performed onstage. Roundly derided as their lowest effort.

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE MENINBLACK by the Stranglers - A cryptic concept album about aliens strangely devoid of conventional song structure and, some say, discernable melody.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone actually really LIKE Kiss? Did anyone, ever?

Pardon my rude ire, but UP YOURS, JACKASS, I LOVE KISS!

There, glad I got that off my chest.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I knew there was someone.
Be careful, Alex, I may poke my tongue out at you.
And it's double the length of Mr Simmons'. So beware.
'Jackass'.... err..... ok. (raises eyebrows, smiles wryly and shakes head...all hope is lost).

― russ t, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I should qualify my answer by saying: I LOVE KISS UP THROUGH DYNASTY, AFTER WHICH POINT THEY BECAME A SHODDY PARODY OF THEIR ALREADY GLORIOUSLY RIDICULOUS SELVES.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Black Flag "Family Man" -- hardcore punk band decides that beat poetry and heavy free punk jazz jams are the next step, unfortunately they don't do both at the same time and worse yet they put out more of this kind of thing afterwards.

― earlnash, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Zooropa by U2, maybe?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Sort of a cheat, but Muslimgauze's Hebron Massacre. Most of his work put out his specific political views only as the texts or songtitles on the art, but that album (or more accurately extended EP) was about the only time I know of where he specifically incorporated spoken word samples and commentary in with the music. Definitely mad in the sense of 'angry.'

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard it, but isn't Bad Religion's Into the Unknown kind of controversial in this respect? I'm under the impression that it's almost like a synth-pop album and the group has basically disowned it--is this true?

― s woods, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I would have thought a pro-Israeli Muslimgauze album would have been considerably "madder" than one called "Hebron Massacre"

― Dadaismus, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, at the time when 'Bitches Brew' came out the jazz community was a bit confused. But it wasn't until he dropped 'On the Corner' on them that he was thought to have gone mad.

― buttch (Oops), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

That experimental album Ben Folds did.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard it, but isn't Bad Religion's Into the Unknown kind of controversial in this respect? I'm under the impression that it's almost like a synth-pop album and the group has basically disowned it--is this true?

Haha! No, more like epic semiprog. It is however some kinda brilliant. It is disowned and officially out of print; never seen a release on CD.

I would have thought a pro-Israeli Muslimgauze album would have been considerably "madder" than one called "Hebron Massacre"

Sometimes it's all about the small steps.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Pop is a bit like Zooropa, but not as weird (or nearly as good). And U2 changed their whole "representative" sound during the 90's anyhow.

From what little I've heard of it, Beautiful Garbage sounds like the anti-Garbage album.

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

"Tusk"!

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

is it me, or do bands just NOT do this anymore? Seriously, what major acts completely change their tune these days, give in to wildly divergent stylistic explorations, etc.? I can't think of anybody. You either have career popsters or isolated niche-marketed bands who make pretty much the same record over and over. It's like a combination of industry economics and hair-splitting scenesterism has necessitated that an artist must color-in the outlines they originally drew for themselves with their debut, and once the picture is adequately fleshed out, they're discarded and forgotten. No one shocks their audience by making massive changes in their styles anymore, they tend to hew to one style until they get boring and then the audience moves on...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

the last modern band I can think of to really do this is the Beastie Boys. Maybe Stereolab, but they're change was pretty gradual...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Bands DO do this, just not really big bands. Blame the way the industry is structured, the way they push what's safe.

Boy, that's some dangerous, cutting-edge controversial analysis on my part!! (ha ha, sorry...)

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

That experimental album Ben Folds did.

Ah, you mean Fear of Pop complete with 7-minute clavinet-fueled funk-jams and William Shatner spoken word. Definitely.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I was wondering if anyone actually really LIKED Goldfrapp. I WISH i heard Mud or Gary Glitter or even second rate T. Rex on that record. I'm feeling let down. It's just a dreary, polite synth pop/electoclash mix. Attention Nick Harcourt!

Unlike Denim--did Felt fans think Lawrence had gone mad when the first Denim record came out? Or did they already think he was mad?

Also, I guess Give Out But Don't Give Up fits in with this thread.

― Arthur (Arthur), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I think "Give Out..." (which I just listened to the other day for the first time in years) is actually just a bad record, as opposed to a radical departure. The Stones-y ballads, the silly remixes, the cock-rock jams - they were all part of Primal Scream's previous releases in some way...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I was wondering if anyone actually really LIKED Goldfrapp.

I quite liked Felt Mountain, but have yet to hear a note off the new one.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Ministry's With Sympathy might fit the bill here.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Motorhead's sole album with Brian "Thin Lizzy" Robertson on guitar, Another Perfect Day was uncharacteristically "musical."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I was kidding about Goldfrapp. They're OKish.

― Arthur (Arthur), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

How about Hawkwind's new wave move, "Quark Strangeness & Charm"?

― Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Every Beck album.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah Shakey, Beck is an answer to your question.
Also: Q-tip

― buttch (Oops), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm, yeah Beck is a good one. Although I think he's kinda cheating by having to have two distinct "career tracks" (ie, wacky hip-hopper vs. the soulful folkie...)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Sort of cheating, but I'd add side 2 of both Low and Heroes here in the sense that I assume no one unfamiliar with them would ever guess they're Bowie.

― s woods, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

buttch --

yes, I believe one critic likened the experience of listening to OTC to coming home to find Miles in your easy chair with his feet propped up... something like that. Pure arrogance, they cried!!!

― Scott Kos (Scott Kos), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The Church - Sometime Anywhere
Recorded as just a duo of Kilbey and Willson-Piper this is one big mess of an album that's mostly a collection of experiments than anything cohesive. Couple of pretty good songs on here and a couple of, well, "ill-advised" electronic synthesizer stuff. It's gotten better with time, but it's still hard to listen to.

Bad Religion - Into The Unknown
Namechecked above, but I've got a copy so I can add a little bit more. Part of the mystery is that BR has disowned it and few folks really have a copy so the rumors about it are blown way out of proportion. It's basically a below average hard rock album that's not punk enough for the hardcore. Couple other bands at the time like T.S.O.L. and J.F.A. were experimenting around with keyboards and I didn't think ITU was all that different.

Couple others come to mind but I've never heard them. There's that J. Geils Band album made without Peter Wolf that's all synthesizers and I seem to recall that Steve Miller released a keyboard/synth-laden album sometime in the late 80s.

Didn't Eric Clapton make an electronic album?

― Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't Eric Clapton make an electronic album?

I believe he did ---- with an ex-member of Naked Eyes, I think.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Paul McCartney put out an instrumental techno album, under the monikor The Firemen.

― s woods, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

....with Youth of Killing Joke, no less.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Paul McCartney put out an instrumental techno album, under the monikor The Firemen.

Hmmm. I forgot about that one. :-)
"The Liverpool Oratotio" could also be seen as some kind of a departure btw.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

As for Youth, he has produced some pop oriented albums for Crowded House and Verve. An excellent producer's job on both of those, and I guess he might have done an excellent job if he had been picked to produce an ordinary McCartney album too.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Thought of another one--an abomination from what I remember, but: Sinead O'Connor, Am I Not Your Girl, her album of "standards." (There are surely many others in this vein? And just as abysmal? Though I have to say I really liked the one Bryan Ferry did a few years ago...so much so I can't remember the title.)

― s woods, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"Nebraska" was followed by "The Gost Of Tom Joad" 13 years later

Likewise, "Zooropa" was followed by "Pop".

Those albums may have been departures at the time, but there were other similar albums from the same artist later on.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to add "Sweetheart Of The Rodeo" btw. Maybe not that different from other Byrds albums, but still the only Byrds album that contains steel guitar and their only pure country album.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Kid A?

― Prude (Prude), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Kid A" was followed by a similar album. If that hadn't been the case, then it possibly would have stuck out in their catalogue as "unrepresentative" considering it seems their new album will be a return to their 90s style.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

"Houses Of The Holy" by Led Zeppelin may have contained a few "typical" numbers, but also a lot of stuff unlike anything else they did before or since.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 2 May 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

I once knew a kid who picked up a used copy of "This is Your Bloody Valentine" before having heard any other MBV. I can't think of anything more unrepresentative than that, though I'm not sure it fits b/c the other Dave Conway EPs are similarly campy and bad. Still..

― Steve Gertz (sgertz), Monday, 2 May 2005 23:38 (twenty years ago)

Nirvana fans picking up "The Story Of Simon Simopath" or "All Of Us", thinking they may have stumpled across some rare early-career gems, may be surprised. Not really fitting into this thread though :-)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 2 May 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)

Urm, Ulver started off as a great Black Metal band with folky elements and monk vocals. Their 2nd album dropped all that in favour of completely acoustic folk music with deep-throated baroque vocals. Their 3rd one contained ultraharsh Darkthrone-style Black Metal with digital production. Their next one scrapped that in favour of Industrial/trip hop/experimental double CD rendition of William Blake's The Marriage Of Heaven And Hell. Then Perdition City jacked all of that in for extremely soundtrack-like beat-based Ambient music.

All of them fantastic albums too!

― Kodanshi, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 00:38 (twenty years ago)

More metal "they've gone mad" moments:

Celtic Frost "Cold Lake"
Master's Hammer "Slagry"
Judas Priest "Turbo"
My Dying Bride "31.788% Complete"

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 9 May 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

Sufjan Stevens - Enjoy Your Rabbit

― Dominique (dleone), Monday, 9 May 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

If Metal Machine Music owns this thread, Beach Boys Smiley Smile defined it.

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Monday, 9 May 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

Didn't the Angelic Upstarts make a proto-new romantic album?

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 9 May 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

Stumpy by (International) Tall Dwarfs.

Dwarfs were always kinda mad, in a good way, but Stumpy was their most experimental release in that it was constructed from fan-submitted excerpts of sound, which were requested on their previous (and possibly best release) The 3 EPs. Too bad, Stumpy is their only release where I just can't remember even one tune after a few listens, whereas all their other albums and EPS have had at least half of the release get branded in my brain after just a handful of listens.

They do deserve kudos for actually following through with their promise to incorporate fan-delivered loops as they requested. Apologies to the people whose tapes actually got used. You are good and great, people.

― donut debonair (donut), Monday, 9 May 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

Anyone remember Teenage Fanclub's The King?

― donut debonair (donut), Monday, 9 May 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

"Anyone remember Teenage Fanclub's The King?" - Wasn't it done as a contractual obligation? It certainly was quite horrible, at any rate. I think its depravity and, more appropriately, incongruity were ultimately overshadowed by the brilliance of the other TF releases by which it was immediately surrounded.

― Steve Gertz (sgertz), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 04:15 (twenty years ago)

eric clapton's techno album

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 04:58 (twenty years ago)

Faith No More "King For A Day" - what were they thinking?

― Siegbran (eofor), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Songs: Ohia - Magnolia Electric Co.
Slow, almost droning, solo singer-songwriter to alt-country.

The two newest Bright Eyes albums?

― Mickey (modestmickey), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

Porcupine Tree - In Absentia

Porcupine Tree put out tons of albums as a prog rock band that sounded like Pink Floyd's older, less popular albums like Ummagumma or something. Fifteen minute songs with 8 minute long instrumental parts.

All of a sudden they met Michael Akerfeldt from Opeth and become a much heavier, 4 minute song rock band.

― Mickey (modestmickey), Tuesday, 10 May 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

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