TS: The Fall vs. Pavement

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I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been done, and I'm interested to hear opinions on this one. Go at it.

― Aaron M (Aaron M), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaron, I don't think it's been done because it's so bleedin' obvious that The Fall DEMOLISH Pavement.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Gee, I wonder which way ilm will go on this one?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

let me the only one to say pavement..

― thomas de'aguirre (biteylove), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I vote for Pavement because I get more of an emotional charge from their music. I love the Fall as well, but in a bitter/intellectual/black humor kind of way.

*ducks and runs*

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 25 April 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

More emotional charge? Malkmus is like the most veiled, affectless singer ever. Mark E. Smith is id and bile and humanness pouring out.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

They're so different in tone -- did Malkmus ever sound angry?

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

ask him about Spiral Stairs

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Pavement, but more for personal reasons then issues of music.

― David Allen, Friday, 25 April 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall never tried to be pretty, or sad, or joyous. Mark E. Smith has pretty much one POV: biting sarcasm. Malkmus (at least in Pavement) was just more nuanced and conflicted.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 25 April 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like to see The Fall physicaly beat Pavement some days.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Wouldn't that be "ask Spiral Stairs about Malkmus"?

I've never been able to get into The Fall as much as I thought I should. I admire their longevity, and like a couple of their songs, but I grew up with Pavement on my stereo, so my vote (however sentimental) goes to them.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Friday, 25 April 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall have plenty of joyous songs

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Pavement, just based on the # times I've pulled out their recs to play over the years.

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This isn't a real fair fight, so I'll throw in a sideways comment: Why did reviews always reference The Fall when Pavement started? The Fall have always been a heavy rhythm 'n' repetition band, with a series of pretty great drummers. Pvmnt always seemed to be in that NZ tradition of lightly noisy pop, JPS Experience, Bats, etc. And as Mr. Diamond points out, Malkmus is all about holding back and MES wouldn't even know how.

Inch!

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"forklift" = "new face in hell"

also, album covers

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I would venture to say...

1. Cover art 'homages' to Hex Enduction and other Fall recs
2. 'Two States'

Early on, I think Pavement mined the same sonic ground as the Swell Maps and Wire, vs. the poppier NZ stuff, which I think they only started to really delve into on Crooked Rain. The Fall comparisons are mostly cosmetic.

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

anyone wanna talk about Malkmus' Steely Dan influence?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

WRONG JESS! "New Face in Hell" = "Conduit for Sale"

DUH!

― hstencil, Friday, 25 April 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

or how "Here" sounds like a lo-rent track from Tusk?

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Cover art, true. But one or two songs? Then there'd probably an equally strong case to be made for Malkmus biting Thomas Jefferson Kaye or someone. I'd put my money on song titles and art.

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Friday, 25 April 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall. easy.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 25 April 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, this has been debated before - on this thread.

See in particular this post, where I expressed much the same opinion as Shakey Mo expressed above. I admire the Fall a great deal, but I listen to Pavement more.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 25 April 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

it's weird, i adore pavement but i've never heard an entire fall album. maybe i should dig one up sometime, but i can't take sides for the moment. it's interesting, if i heard the fall i'd probably think "this has all been done before by pavement!" because regardless of who released their records first, pavement is the one *I* heard first!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall indeed. I also heard very little Pavement material, i always get the: "if you like the fall than you'll like this" perhaps i should dig more into the Pavement material?

― rexJr., Friday, 25 April 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

they're not REALLY the same. The big diff is Malkmus's lack of causticness compared to Smith. The Fall is way more badass.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

THE FALL. here is why -
* first Fall album I heard [This Nation's Saving Grace]: "hey! this is great! woo! yay! this was so worth the money"
* first (and only) Pavement album I heard [Slanted & Enchanted]: "wha? this sounds exactly like Dave Saunders-voxed 3Ds. bleh."
* the mere existence of a song entitled "Conduit For Sale!" in such a shamelessly Fallish manner fills me with an irrational overwhelming hatred.
* Smith's interviews are far more interesting than Malkmus's (course that could simply be because I don't care bout Pavement anyway).

― Poppy (poppy), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

it's interesting, if i heard the fall i'd probably think "this has all been done before by pavement!" because regardless of who released their records first, pavement is the one *I* heard first!

Yeah, I was afraid I'd like Pavement less (or at least "respect" them less or something) once I found how much they ripped off the Fall, since that's what so many articles implied. Then I investigated the Fall and found happily that they sound almost nothing alike, aside from a few song-specific "homages"; Pave's integrity survives! Plus, also happily, the Fall rule (though in a very different way).

― Sam J. (samjeff), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Malkmus is all about holding back and MES wouldn't even know how.

Cut it loose Stevie...Maybe you'll end up sounding like The Dead C, but I doubt it...

― brg30 (brg30), Friday, 25 April 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

No contest. Um...I prefer the band with the singer who has some actual personality in his voice, not to mention the band with the ryhthm section. Though it's possible that those early singing-though-a-broken-Burger-King-drive-through-intercom EPs by the inferior of the two bands are better than anything the superior of the two bands has done since I stopped paying attention a dozen or so years ago. And the new Wishbone Ash tribute album by the inferior band's singer with no personality is actually quite beautiful and catchy at times.

― chuck, Saturday, 26 April 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I was a Pavement fan for many a year. Soon lost interest in them and instead got heavily into the Silver Jews. Then, last year, I decide to check out The Fall because of what I'd heard about them being a Pavement influence. Immediately become excited by what I hear, this atonal rhythm orchestra with brainy and snotty lyrics spoken over it. Last week, I put on S&E while I restrung my guitar, out of curiosity to see how it now sounded, contrasted with all the Saving Grace and Hex Enduction and Wonderful & Frightening I'd be hearing. "Conduit for Sale" and "Jackals" stuck out like sore thumbs.

Whatever, I pick The Fall and I'd like to be reminded again of why Pavement was so popular. I don't dislike them, but I've gotten so bored with them! It's like I got into Pavement for the grey indie rock lo-fi beats and the interesting lyrics, then split into liking The Fall for the music and the Silver Jews for the lyrics.

― Famous Athlete, Saturday, 26 April 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely you're not into the Silver Jews for their vocals...right?

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Saturday, 26 April 2003 01:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually yeah, I kinda am. I'm in it for the lyrics and for the total package. At first, I was turned off by the vocals, but I was an asshole at first. I like David Berman's voice. It's strong and confident. It sounds good when I sing along in the car, because neither of us have perfect pitch.

― Famous Athlete, Saturday, 26 April 2003 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

More recent SJ records reveal better qualities to Berman's vocals, and I find them much more worthy of repeated listens. I'd still rather read Berman than listen to him, though.

― paul cox (paul cox), Saturday, 26 April 2003 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"mark smith used to work for me
back in manchester back in 1983
stole all his ideas from me
now i steal em right back oh yes i am. "

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 26 April 2003 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)

gosh, i like them both just the same

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Saturday, 26 April 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

the jabs between smith and malkmus in the wire's invisible jukeboxes a couple of years back were priceless, smith whined at one point how rich (!) pavement had gotten off his sound and how he was still putting up fliers for his own shows while they were driving around in bmws. a couple of issues later they asked malkmus if he'd heard the new fall record and he responded 'I've been too busy driving around in my bmw'

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 26 April 2003 07:42 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing that makes me like Pavement better than the Fall is that Malkmus seemed to be working a lot harder to achieve his desired effect. MES, whom I wuv don't get me wrong, works the "here's what I do: don't you love it?" axis which is a thing that revolves around a huge theory I've got that I've never been able to concisely articulate. But it has to do with how there are some artists (both writers & musicians) who, once you've tuned in to what it is they're doing, seem infallible: if you "get" what they do, then you like everything they do. Something about that always impresses me less than artists who sound, to me, like they're not trying to rely on the "don't you just love me?" factor. As I say I have a hard time articulating this idea, even harder when I've been congested for FOUR FECKING DAYS

Blount's Malkmus anecdote above, priceless

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 26 April 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

you're just too, too obtuse for me
you don't really get through to me

― Ess Kay learns about cargo cults (esskay), Saturday, 26 April 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I have all Pavement recs, an equal amount of The Fall records and I've seen them an equal number of times. Going with Pavement here. When I used to be a DJ and rock director at WTJU in C'ville I actually used to pull out Fall recs and marvel how Steve M. and co. gathered their influences from the pieces of vinyl that I was holding. And I like that and the fandom that I experienced, feeling close to something like that in a very young way. All very sentimental foolishness. And MES is a detached motherfucker and in my battle Pavement wins.

― Carey (Carey), Saturday, 26 April 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

another vote for pavement. although i've only one fall rekkid. so maybe i'm just ignant.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 26 April 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

John D, the big problem I have with your theory is that Malkmus always sounds like he's TRYING to do something, or referencing the artist who actually achieved "it." He rarely actually achieves it, which shows in the fact that his third verse is almost always gibberish (even he's admitted he runs out of things to say) and often he just starts screaming at the end. It sounds like you're picking Malkmus simply because he's more pretentious (which I doubt is really the reason). And MES has certainly changed the sound of his band over the years (even if his voice is pretty much the same, though the voice impressively works in softorloudorhardorfastorrockortechno settings) so it's not like you can accuse the Fall of some Ramones-like lack of sonic evolution.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 26 April 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I just realized the absurdity of complaining that Malkmus's third verses are gibberish if I'm gonna prefer Mark E Smith. What I meant was by the third verse Malkmus is spewing uninspired gibberish. "Stereo" is a good example.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 26 April 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall have always been a heavy rhythm 'n' repetition band, with a series of pretty great drummers

Yes yes yes! The first thing I thought when I saw the thread title was, "The Fall, obviously -- better drummers."

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Saturday, 26 April 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Pavement, but I've always thought they were deficient in the backbeat, which is either unforgivable laziness or some kind of ironic indie thing ("we're not rock'n'roll -- look, we can't even play drums!").

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Saturday, 26 April 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Pavement - mainly because of their excellent swansong album

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 26 April 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

They recorded for Zeppelin's label?!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 26 April 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall -- Pavement only recorded one great album and maybe 2 OK records. As for passion and emotion, Smith kicks Malkmus' ass down the block.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 26 April 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

They recorded for Zeppelin's label?!

No. Speaking of their last album, "Terror Twilight", which was actually quite nice. The rest of their output leaves me cold, but so does The Fall's entire output too.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 26 April 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The truth is that, the first time I heard Pavement was when they covered "The Classical" in a session for BBC Radio 1. That was also the last time I listened to Pavement. Oh, hang on, it wasn't. There is a Pavement song with the line "The drummer knew restraint", which is a bastardisation of "Cortez the Killer" by Neil Young. In fact the whole song was. At least Pavement imitate people worth imitating....

― Bobby Davro, Saturday, 26 April 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"Unseen Power of the Picket Fence" sounds like "Cortez the Killer"???

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 26 April 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I can definitely relate to what J0hn D. said above. Mark E. Smith is such an f'n COOL mofo (much cooler than Pavement could ever be - let's face it) that he coasts on his coolness to an extent that Malkmus never allowed himself to. Which is fine - I mean, hey, he's still cooler - but the coolness of it all gets a bit monochromatic after a while.

― o. nate (onate), Saturday, 26 April 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing that makes me like Pavement better than the Fall is that Malkmus seemed to be working a lot harder to achieve his desired effect.

Surely, you're talking about Pavement's studio work and not the live shows, then.

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 26 April 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

J0hn:

trying to rely on the "don't you just love me?" factor.

has kept Malkmus in BMWs since Gary left the farm. Not that you don't have a point about reaching-out artists and waiting-for-you-to-get-to-them artists (if that's not an unfair reduction of your reduction), but MES and SM both seem like they decided who they were early on and kept at it.

MES: Lover of chemicals that foment work (like Sartre: "This tube means I will process this many words in three days"); voracious reader of all things; fan of donnybrooks; lover of rock beats, loser of teeth; writer of irreducible, rhythmic goodness.

SM: Heir to good bones; expert on mid-20th century poets; slayer of rosewood; dropper of long-ass melodies; owner of pink oxford shirts; manager of the Work Is For The Little People Society. Both, in a pinch, geniuses. One in desperate need of medical attention; the other, probably some of whatever got the first one into so much trouble.

And donut bitch OTM like Jefferson's face.

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Saturday, 26 April 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Brilliant.

― jm (jtm), Saturday, 26 April 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall are coming to my town! (well Atlanta rather, not my town but still). Naysayers be warned there's no nay you can say that's gonna diminish my car 54 ooh ooh ooh over this.

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 27 April 2003 04:41 (twenty-two years ago)

trife would LOVE to go!

― donut bitch (donut), Sunday, 27 April 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

if he knew how to drive that is (ohnoididint)

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 27 April 2003 06:37 (twenty-two years ago)

When you feel the urge to scrub your eardrums with steel wool after hearing Paul McCartney's "Freedom" or similar in a restaurant, only The Fall can power through the scum and redeem music for you. Pavement just won't cut it. It has to be The Fall... cryptic yet direct. Guest Informant, Eat Y'Self Fitter, The Classical, Container Drivers... the list is endless.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Sunday, 27 April 2003 08:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall are bad ass. Pavement are, to put it mildly, quite gay.

― Sight Unseen, Sunday, 27 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

to me it doesn't come down to their lyrics, cos i can't understand mark e smith's accent anyway. the fall sound more playful to me. i only like one pavement album.

― di smith (lucylurex), Monday, 28 April 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

let me the only one to say pavement.

oddly enough at least half the thread voted for Pavement!!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 28 April 2003 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"ask Spiral Stairs about Malkmus"?

I had the chance to do that when I met him when Preston School of Industry played in Oxford, and he had nothing bad to say.

― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 28 April 2003 08:42 (twenty-two years ago)

six months pass...

If only Malkmus would have had the same backbone as MES in terms of reinventing/reorganizing the band, Pavement would would have a legitimate shot here as Pavement's great period is really just a blink of the Fall's great period(s).

Both very obtuse, high-minded lyricists with a penchant for obscure references, but Malkmus had an emotional side that MES never quite cared to exhibit. But without The Fall, Pavement would never have been that interesting... Winner = The Fall.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I really love the Fall, but Pavement is my favorite band ever and that's probably never going to change.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Also: it's kind of weird that some people are coming down on Pavement for their rhythm section, which is a little odd to be cos Pavement/Malkmus isn't really about the beat, it's about the melody.

So, The Fall = rhythm-based band, Pavement = melody based.

I think that melody > rhythm, pretty much always.

Also, I get the feeling that a lot of you who are putting down Pavement's live show only are familiar with pre-97 live shows. From 97-99 they were a pretty fucking great live band, and most everything from their final two albums is better live than on the studio recordings.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that melody > rhythm, pretty much always.

I would say Geir to thread but he's already posted.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

If only Malkmus would have had the same backbone as MES in terms of reinventing/reorganizing the band..

wouldn't that contribute to more fanboy criticism of his 'ego'? and in a way, he did with the jicks. he knows that he has become the sound of pavement. it's a little guitar and his voice, that's all. so he did ... he reorganized the pavement members right out of the band.

― Dean Gulberry (deangulberry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe no one has mentioned the Fall soundingness of 'Hit the Plane Down'.

The Fall, obviously, have produced brilliant challenging music for over a quarter of a century (disregarding the crap albums), and without Mark's bastardliness there would be no Creepers or Blue Orchids (or Ark, but the less said the better). Pavement had a few cool songs and some enjoyable albums.

― Sasha (sgh), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Pavement fine, but gygax! (among others) OTM. We're sure, btw, that Mark hasn't done a Damo Suzuki at some point on SM? (Don't know of one myself.)

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 02:30 (twenty-two years ago)

four months pass...

while we're on the topic of bands pavement ripped off, my friend pointed out that pavement ripped "stereo" off from some Nation of Ulysseys song. anybody know what im talking about?

― lisa frank, Thursday, 4 March 2004 01:25 (twenty-two years ago)

that seems kinda hard to believe - considering Pavement never sounded as fast and aggressive as NOU consistently was. I've got both NOU records and all the Pavement stuff and I never noticed any overt similarities - what song specifically?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 March 2004 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard a song on some classic rock station recently that had a riff exactly like that of "Rattled by la Rush". Which re: Pavement means that Malkmus was clearly the originator of this riff, as he was traveling backward in time anyway so's MES could rip him off.

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Donna - that's "Dancing Days" by Led Zeppelin.

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

omg i never noticed that

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't think it's as spot on xerox as 'rattled by the rush' and the incidental music friends used that one season

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah! just the verse riff tho, not the big main one.

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean "Rush"'s main riff sounds like the verse riff in "Dancing Days"

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

haha omg the rembrants ARE pavement

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the main/chorus riff in RBLaR is MONSTER.

was that ripped off too?

― tk, Thursday, 4 March 2004 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

that's insane, yet payback in a way for Zep ripping off all those blues musicians

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Thursday, 4 March 2004 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I like each band at different times for different reasons and sometimes i like both bands at the same time for the same reasons and sometimes i can't stand either band for reasons that escape me.

It comes down to this, however; it was much more satisfying to discover Pavement than it was to discover The Fall.

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't think it's as spot on xerox as 'rattled by the rush' and the incidental music friends used that one season

That's awesome that you noticed that. I had a good laugh about that one Thursday night in 1996 or whenever and had no one to share my delight with.

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Thursday, 4 March 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought that interlude in Friends really was "Rattled by the Rush". I'm kinda dissapointed to hear that it was just a coincidence.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Friday, 5 March 2004 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Not a coincidence; a calculated mimic-job.

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Friday, 5 March 2004 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

twenty years pass...

Do you really have to ask?

― LightUserSyndrome, Monday, 30 December 2024 03:16 (one year ago)

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