Were The Grateful Dead Freemasons?

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Well?

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 1 May 2003 09:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hell no. Definitely Rosicrucians. I mean, all that Rose & Skull symbolism? Rosicrucian all the way.

kate, Thursday, 1 May 2003 09:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

what are you all talking about.

but yes, the grateful dead invented most of the best music we hear today.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

Julio, whatever crack you are smoking, quit it!

kate, Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

no, but george washington was. and he was also HIGH ALL THE TIME. coincidence?

your null fame (yournullfame), Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

They were CIA agents apparently.

Alex K (Alex K), Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

''Julio, whatever crack you are smoking, quit it!''

I'm serious kate and i have never smoked anything in my life.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

All that free jazz has warped your brain! You and hstencil both! The Dead are responsible for almost ALL of the worst crimes against music in the history of, well, forever! Rosicrucian plot, I tell you!

kate, Thursday, 1 May 2003 10:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

b-but the grateful dead are not free jazz.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 11:11 (twenty-one years ago) link


  • Metallica are the last remaining members of the Knights Templar! The severed head of John the Baptist writes all their lyrics!
  • KRS-One is the new Old Man in the Mountain, and Long Island is now the new Alamut!
  • Billy Joel, Elton John and Wayne Newton are all members of a masonic death cult bent handing control over this planet to the Elder Gods!
DON'T EVER TELL ME YOU WERE NEVER WARNED!
< /PARANOID >

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

I didn't see the Dead were free jazz, I said that free jazz had warped yer brain so much that the Dead sound good to you.

Hey, who let all those MOR cunts into *my* secret masonic death cult? How dare they!

kate, Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

the grateful dead sounded pretty good to me even before I got into free jazz.

live/dead is a phenomenal release. I want to get lots of bootlegs now.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

hippy! ;)

Chris V. (Chris V), Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

heh. I was waiting for someone to say that.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

it used to scare me on that live version of "candyman" when jerry sings,"if i had a shotgun, i'd blow you straight to hell" and the crowd just erupts and screams. Yikes, bloodthirsty hippies!!!!

i need to get the acid test stuff somewhere. i useta have a tape, but it musta rolled away with the dew or something.

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 12:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, the Grateful Dead were goddamn hippies. There is a difference.

gage o (gage o), Thursday, 1 May 2003 13:42 (twenty-one years ago) link


if you know what's good for you, this thread will disappear.

masonic dude #4

masonic dude #4, Thursday, 1 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

I was wondering when my minions were going to turn up!

kate, Thursday, 1 May 2003 14:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

''No, the Grateful Dead were goddamn hippies. There is a difference.''

open yr mind. think outside the box etc etc.

let me patronise you!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 14:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

the grateful dead invented most of the best music we hear today

This is the worst overstatement ever, and makes Julio sound like a smelly hippy. Is Julio a smelly hippy?

Besides, everybody knows that Brian Eno (Knight Templar) invented most of the best music we hear today.

J (Jay), Thursday, 1 May 2003 15:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Dead have a song called "Mason's Children". I have no idea what it's about. I think it's about a person named Mason.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hmmmmnn...legion of followers using barter/flaxscript to get their ticket, it does seem suspicious. They may be aligned with someone, but perhaps not the masons.

How many references to 23 are there in the GD lexicon?

earlnash, Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

http://home.earthlink.net/~jackjoy777/images/cartoon8.jpg

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

FNORD

FNORD, Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

but yes, the grateful dead invented most of the best music we hear today.

Is this an example of that "pretentious" humour you were talking about Julio?

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 1 May 2003 17:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

... exactly what did the Grateful Dead ever invent anyway? Aside from Deadheads, and that's one phenomena we could all do without.

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 1 May 2003 17:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

Grateful Dead Lyric And Song Finder

Lyric search
Couldn't find any lyrics matching 23

Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 1 May 2003 17:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

blah hippie blah blah filthy hippie blah

I mean yes it was funny on The Young Ones TWENTY YEARS AGO but really: the Grateful Dead have some very interesting songs, saying "eek they're hippies" is about as thought-through a take as "How can I like a band that doesn't even write their own songs?" Ugh.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:21 (twenty-one years ago) link

Is this better?

boring, tiresome noodling with horrifically uninteresting vocals and trite lyrics?
the dead have no sense of dynamics whatsoever. they are lead balloons that want to soar but sink faster than you can say "hand painted jerry garcia tie" or "bucket of fried chicken with a side of heroin." they are reverse midases, every sound they touched turning to feces. moreover, with their cult audience, they never had to push themselves -- everything they did was just "groovy." by cult, i mean mindless religous dedication.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

John, don't overreact.

Read Julio's quote again. Does it not OVERSTATE THE DEAD'S IMPORTANCE?

Yes, there are good Dead songs. I quite like "Born Cross-Eyed" and "Dark Star" in particular. But "the grateful dead invented most of the best music we hear today" is a mistaken belief held by Deadheads and Deadheads alone.

J (Jay), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

And, of course, Deadheads = filthy hippies.

Just because they said it twenty years ago on a Britcom doesn't mean it's WRONG!

J (Jay), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Dead rule. I used to hate them knee-jerk stylee, then I decided to use my ears. My estimation of them increases more and more all the time.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

the dead have no sense of dynamics whatsoever.

What are you talking about? They're not playing drone.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah Julio overstates things by rather a lot, but the "they're hippies" thing is SO boring...it's like somebody listening to a dance song and going "Duh, disco sux, dood."

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah that "no sense of dynamics"? WTF?! That's what they were fucking about live. Stupid comment.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

i've heard my share of live dead. and IN MY OPINION, i stand by my statement. very very very tedious music and self indulgent (at it's worst).
for every one good moment, there a million more that obliterate them. the dead are the masters of completely losing the plot.

as for hippies, the stereotype as it exists now is primarily based on Deadheads.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

My open-mindedness about the Dead disappeared after having to walking by the apartment of a surly Deadhead/Phishead neighbor repeatedly, hearing the most miserable sounds coming from his stereo almost every time.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

tur·gid    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (tûrjd) adj.Grateful Dead =

1. Excessively ornate or complex in style or language; grandiloquent: turgid prose.
2. Swollen or distended, as from a fluid; bloated: a turgid bladder; turgid veins.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

OK, Jack, I'll bite. What exactly do you mean by "dynamics"?

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

But actually, I don't really hate them. I've heard some songs by them I have liked occasionally.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

"the dead are the masters of completely losing the plot." - you say this as if it's a criticism bro.

Alex K (Alex K), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

they lost the plot, the theme, half the characters and the answer to the mystery. In fact, if you inquired of them "okay, I give up...who killed Lady Farnsworth by the Garden Shed on that windy mid morning?" they'd blink like a stunned varmint and mutter "um...er...artichoke? 1914? polyunsaturated?"

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

you say "self-indulgent" as if it's a criticism, too.

Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

RS - the first time i ever heard Hamza el Din was actually on a Dead bootleg where he led the crowd in this pretty rhythmicaly complex handclapping.

the Dead could have off moments but were great live performers who get dismissed way too easily here.

H (Heruy), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'd rather they indulged the audience.
(I worked a Grateful Dead concert. The Audience was 1000x more interesting than the sleepy, shapeless burblings coming off the stage amps...)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Grateful Dead--Covert Social Engineering for Gaia?

http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.02/msg00049.html

SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Thursday, 1 May 2003 20:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

''Yeah Julio overstates things by rather a lot, but the "they're hippies" thing is SO boring...it's like somebody listening to a dance song and going "Duh, disco sux, dood."''

I knew when a thread with the words 'grateful dead' the word 'hippies' come up. its all bullshit. HATING THE FANS ISN'T A GOOD ENUFF REASON!

Right now i am listening to something that sort of in the spirit of the grateful dead. but I must go to sleep soon. I'll try to come back tomorrow and explain (I deliberately made my comment 'open' so we could start some sort of discussion and i have enjoyed the posts here).

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 1 May 2003 21:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

dynamics = Of or relating to variation of intensity, as in musical sound.

for me -- to my ears -- the Dead are plodding, one dead end alley after another. their "jams" never come together satisfactorly, mostly stillborn right out of the gate.

---

self indulgence is a precarious razor's edge which one can easly tip over into unlistenability.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 21:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

also, for the record, my problems with the Grateful Dead have nothing to do with "if they are hippies or not" or their fans. if anything, Jerry Garcia is highly amusing for how much he didn't jibe with the Hippy image in his private life.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 21:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

for me -- to my ears -- the Dead are plodding, one dead end alley after another. their "jams" never come together satisfactorly, mostly stillborn right out of the gate.

Have you heard "Two From the Vault"?

Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 1 May 2003 21:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

Man Two From the Vault is smoooooooookin'. The version of "Death Don't Have No Mercy" is great on there. Also, I love the way they're just RIPPING through "Morning Dew" and they get the power turned off on 'em!

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 1 May 2003 21:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah, I prefer it to Live/Dead for that harsh, metallic early Dead "Dark Star/The Eleven" acid jamming thing. It's the one I'd recommend to people who want to hear that "era" at its best. (An era that's very different from the stereotypical '70s/'80s "sleepy, shapeless, plodding" Dead that people are talking about here. But I like that, too.)

See, what pulled me into the Dead (after years of indifference) was all those awesome songs. And once I got interested in the songs, I started to appreciate their playing a lot more. And I started to really like Jerry Garcia's guitar playing, "undynamic" as it may be. I like how he plays on and on and on, just playing great notes. I can understand how people could hear it as musical mush, but, y'know, to each their own.

Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 1 May 2003 22:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

But Jack you sound like you haven't listened to any of the studio albums even once: like it amused you more to go with "oh, all their jams are interminable," so you did. I mean, I'm pretty surprised to find myself defending the Grateful Dead - Garcia had a terribly weak voice, plenty of the harmonies could've used way more practice instead of "jamming" in preparing for the studio - but you're talking about the band's live show. Their albums are mainly pop country-rock with mild psychedelic overtones! "Alabama Getaway" is a terrific single, and so's "Casey Jones"! Sam J.'s right: the Dead are underrated as songsmiths.

Again, there's a whole bunch of complaints one can allege against the dead. "Self-indulgence" really doesn't seem like something that can reasonably be laid against the studio albums, though.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 22:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

My biggest problem with the Dead is definitely the out-of-tune-ness of the vocals on the live recordings. But I can live with it.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 1 May 2003 22:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

look, john, i have heard the studio albums -- but the Grateful Dead were primarily a live band. some of the studio albums are pretty bland country-rock-lite-psych pop -- if that's what you are fishing for. pretty bleh in my book. as a live band, "self indulgence to an extreme" can be fairly and accurately be attached to them.

an anecdote: when i was wee lad i thought bluegrass sucked because most of it that i heard was the shit played by garcia and his cronies. freaking wallpaper banjo music. thank god i finally heard the stanley brothers and bill monroe and even dock boggs, otherwise i would have continued to have wrong idea. garcia is the epitome of inertness, be it in the studio or on stage.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 23:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

'Blues for Allah' would've been SO GREAT if they hadn't stuck "Music Never Stopped" right in the middle. Anyone who thinks JP Barlow's radical egalitarianism is a good thing re file-sharing should experience what same r.e. does to their fucking records! (see also "Money Money")

dave q, Friday, 2 May 2003 09:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

''... exactly what did the Grateful Dead ever invent anyway? Aside from Deadheads, and that's one phenomena we could all do without.''

never met a deadhead BTW.

I think the grateful dead just made that notion of making a tune and then playing wildly different versions of it again and again. They made that 'idea' into a reality and many bands have followed since.

Of course for anyone into jazz this is not new but as far as rock goes...most of the best bands that mess around with the rock format use improvisation. that is far more interesting to me than a band boring me with their songs, their awful lyrics and 'production'. I like songs still but improvising dominates a lot of my listening. more than hearing straight tunes anyway, and that has been the case for the last 3/4 years.

I was listening to a rallizes CDR (jap psych band) last night and they were playing 'songs' that I first heard on 'Live 77' and they were incredibly different. its that thing abt revisiting tunes again and again and finding new things on them.

besides 'Live/Dead' is really wonderful to me from beginning to end (but especially the middle section btu I'm at work so I don't have it with me to pull it out).

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

Julio, "rock" bands have been improvising for years. Grateful Dead certainly didn't invent improvisation in a rock 'n' roll context, in the era from 1965-67, numerous bands were doing much the same thing - from the Velvet Underground to Pink Floyd to Country Joe & the Fish to Kaleidoscope etc etc etc. In fact, you could argue that the Who were doing it in 1964. And of course before 1965, most R&B and blues musicians had been improvising ON STAGE for years.

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

yes but the velvets were in this obscure curio scene no?

OK I'm not saying they invented it on their own but weren't they among those bands that were keen on improvisation.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Grateful Dead were a good band and certainly not just a bunch of incoherent old hippies but I think in pursuit of a debate you somewhat
exaggerated their importance, which we all do at times. What do you mean by "obscure curio scene"?

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

I was talking abt andy warhol type stuff. the factory etc.

''I think in pursuit of a debate you somewhat
exaggerated their importance, which we all do at times''

there are a couple of old threads and it did descend into the 'hippies' etc stuff. I like that 'dynamics' was touched on and I'll try and string a thought or two on this.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Velvets were certainly well known enough among other rock musicians if not among the general public at large. They played on the West Coast as early as 1966 before The Mothers or The Dead or Jefferson Airplane had released any records (must check up on this last statement!)

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ah, but back to the question.

Freemasons or not? Doesn't this sound a lot like the legend of Hiram Abif?

Grateful Dead
"Mason's Children"

Mason died on Monday, we bricked him in the wall
All his children grew and grew, they ain't never grown so tall before
They may never grow so tall again

We dug him up on Tuesday, he hardly aged a day
Taught us all we ever knew, we ain't never known so much before
We may never know so much again

The wall collapsed on Wednesday, we chalked it up to fate
Mason's children ran and flew, they ain't never run so fast before
Swore they'd never show their face again

Mason was a mighty man, a mighty man was he
Always said when I'm dead I'm gone, don't you weep for me

Thursday came then Friday, with buyers tall and bright
Mason's children cooked the stew and cleaned up when the feast was through

Take me to the repo-man to pay back what is owed
If he's in some other land write it off as stole

Scaredy Cat, Saturday, 10 May 2003 19:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm just going to post links:

Sargosa Manuscript & The Dead: http://www.egyptiantheatre.com/sargossamanuscript1999.htm

As you can imagine, every other Google find about this subject sounded suspiciously like insanity and invovled the CIA and Satan.

Scaredy Cat, Saturday, 10 May 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

one year passes...
I'm listening to Miles Davis' "Shhh/Peaceful" from In a Silent Way for the first time (as far as I know--of course, I may have heard this on the radio late at night 25 years ago, but if I did, I don't remember it) and long stretches of it, when his trumpet is absent, remind me of the Grateful Dead (but I guess it should be the other way around). Maybe I just don't listen to a lot of spacious electric music from this period.

RS £aRue (rockist_scientist), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 05:09 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't think the grateful dead were great, or horrible. somewhere in between..

, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 06:10 (nineteen years ago) link

"He's Gone" is a nice little tune.

Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 06:23 (nineteen years ago) link

"Box of Rain" and most of American Beauty is without a doubt great.

Magic City (ano ano), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 06:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Freemasons, yes; all except Jerry. Too difficult to master that secret Masonic handshake with only four-and-one-half fingers.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 10:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Look, please QUIT IT!!! Stop putting "freemasons" in the subject or questions of threads about things I would never normally read about (the Grateful Dead, football, etc.) in order to tempt me into reading them. It truly offends my masonic sentiments. Kay? Thanks. Bye.

Masonic Cathedral (kate), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 10:06 (nineteen years ago) link


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