Due for a critical reevaluation

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The first two Jethro Tull records!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Nicky Gilder! Traffic! Onyx! Fu-Schnickens! Little Feat! Marshall Tucker Band!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

pitchfork!

― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchblende!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

blender!

― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

my so-called career.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Linkin Park! Das EFX! Therapy?! Kid N Play! Ace of Base! Sepultura! The Real Thing-era Faith No More! The Crow soundtrack!

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

certainly not that good.

― Felcher (Felcher), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

What's not that good, Felcher?

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Yanc3y aren't you a music critic? Isn't it your job to reevaluate these things? Get to it!

― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

ace of base! and to think i used to fancy that girl

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Did people ever seriously dis Traffic or Little Feat? God that would be stupid. I guess there probably is some meaningless indie band who make more inspired music than those two bands, though. Probably the New Pornographers or something are better than those two groups I guess. Yeah, that's it. I was just enjoying that first Dave Mason solo album the other day. Fu-Schnickens were pretty cool but "Ring the Alarm" is the only cut I can remember..

I vote for Red Hot Chili Peppers up through Blood Sugar Sex Magick.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

What, did some cunt slag off Nick Gilder recently?

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

City Nights is an amazing record.

― Sean (Sean), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The Exploited! Crass! Bomb the Bass! This is getting harder.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

re-evaluate the Streets, recognize shite when you hear it.

Also, early Poison.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

gay dad

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I have Stand Up. That's the second JT album, right? I don't think it's very good at all (and I like a number of their hits). How do you evaluate it?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Coldplay's Parachutes. The Pixies.

― Sean M (Sean M), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, from what I remember, it's probably the crudest prog record I've heard, which just makes it kind of limp and empty for me, not rocking. Like elementary flute exercises set to clumsy riffs and a rhythm section that doesn't go anywhere. I'll play it again but that's how I remember it.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

gay dad?? you'll be suggesting kula shaker next!

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Ocean Colour Scene's "Moseley Shoals"

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Stand Up is ok. I always liked Jethro Tull when they just rocked, and "A New Day Yesterday" is one of their best tunes in that regard.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Japan/David Sylvian.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

pizzicato five!
fresh prince as a pop artist,
foreigner's first one

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr. Diamond, have you written a record guide? Or even just a lil' website, listing your picks? Seriously, I'd love to read such a thing.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

aw, thanks, Sam! No, no website ... I'm not a pro critic or anything; I don't even have a blog! I guess I just like hanging out here and annoying people.. diverting myself from all the important shit in my life I need to be dealing with..

I don't mean to sound like such an old crank. I give everything a chance, honest! But the amount of critical jizzing over something as limp as the NPs ... I mean, I don't think I've read a single negative review of that record. I'd love someone to point me to one! Meanwhile, we have to consider whether or not we should bother listening to old Little Feat records? Whether we need to "revalue" them or something? I mean, I'm sorry ... that first Little Feat record is some of the best, rhythmically inventive, and downright fun rock music I've heard. They did seem to fall off a bit after that, but I've not heard all their records.

I mean, that's kind of part of it .. I haven't heard Waiting For Columbus yet! And I'm 31 - my lifetime isn't getting any longer. I mean, a hijacked plane could fly into my workplace tomorrow, and I'll have died never having heard Waiting For Columbus. So the next time I get a spare $10 in my pocket you better believe I'm going to pick that up before I trifle with something like the New Pornographers.

Also, I've been meaning to post to your Guru Guru thread! I have by no means forgotten ... thing is, I did pick up that Genrich solo thing, and it kind of sucked, but it inspired me to go back and listen to the original records again.. And they've been blowing my mind all over again!! So yeah, I've been meaning to post, but just trying to work up some coherent thoughts about them...

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I just listened to side 1 of Stand Up and can confidently say that I think it sucks from start to finish, mostly for the reasons I gave above. I'd really like to hear the "reevaluation". At least "Living In the Past" had that cool 5/4 groove and "Aqualung" had a totally classic riff (much stronger than NDY IMO). This stuff really goes nowhere and the flute parts are all pretty painful.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Cool! Yeah, I've got this whole "Mr. Diamond" section at the top of my "records to buy" list... the records you recommend always seem to immediately jump to the top of the pile.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr. Diamond if you have a turntable you can always get Waiting for Columbus for less than $3. Definitiely worth it at that price (haven't heard the New Pornographers).

― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Rick Wakeman

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Bread

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

'Jethro Dull'!!! Har har. That's all they deserve.

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"I really worry about the future of music. Livingston Taylor was opening for us and he got bottled off the stage! How do new bands get a chance?" - Ian Anderson

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

frank zappa (at least among indie folk). and yes, i am serious.

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

the darkness!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm with you on Wakeman, Amateurist. White Rock can be very good.

The first two Tull records are folk albums! This Was and Stand Up are both woefully underappreciated. "A New Day Yesterday" is gorgeous, "A Song for Jeffrey" bombastic and "For a Thousand Mothers" epic. I always saw them as the midpoint between Fairport Convention and Led Zeppelin (later they went Zep whole hog), especially on those first two discs. I still listen to them all the time. "Look Into the Sun" is so fucking bittersweet it slays me.

After punk, bands like Little Feat (who were really a dance band -- hell I'd even call some of their stuff DISCO) and Traffic (and really, there's only maybe 10 people with better ROCK voices than Winwood) got shafted merely cuz they could be instrumentally virtuous. But while other similar bands seemed to base their identity off their ability to string together eighth notes or some shit, for Traffic and LF I always considered their dexterity to merely be a tool toward good songs, not the point of it.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

little feat played on paris 1919 and have been extensively covered in uncut: surely they're on their way?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

but is uncut reevaluation the kind they really need? (ans: no)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Yanc3y does the Tull guy sing like THAT (all the fluttering melisma) on those early records? And does he do the staccato flute solos? Because those are the things that keep me from being able to listen to the J.T. they play on the radio.

Have Little Feat really been shafted? I suppose they've been victims of post-punk indifference but.... I don't know anyone who would actually denigrate the best of their LPs.

(x-post)

What about the first two Chicago (Transit Authority) records??

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

ha yancey, is there any other kind? (critical re-evalutation = living undeath)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Also in the realm of the neglected-but-not-generally-despised, J.J. Cale! His first record is incredible!

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Birdland

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000EN9N.01._PE_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Belfegore!

http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_0d6a6d1d25c74702c778d76fbe88cfa4/i-1.JPG

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Big Country

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought glenn macdonald was working on that one singlehandedly

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

tad - I think plenty of indie musicians (maybe not fans or critics though) are plenty big zappa fans, I know the e6 kids are and so is malkmus.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

80s Bryan Ferry

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Ian Anderson does play the same way, but what backs him is so dramatically different that it's put in an entirely different context. On the songs you hear on classic rock radio, it's a huge bombastic ROCK sound playing behind him, but on these first two records, it's much more cautious, to where his melisma and flouting ability (god I wish that phrase would appear in Rolling Stone more often)(is that a real phrase?) sounds much more like a jamboree setting than an arena. This makes a huge difference (I don't own any Tull records other than these two)(Stand Up can be had on the cheap -- pick it up!).

And yeah, there's no such thing as a good critical reevaluation, cuz that means it gets tossed into the canon, where it's weighed down by the ugly h.c.-phrase: HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

age of chance. godfathers. that petrol emotion. win.

all need to have respective back catalogues reissued with tons of extras. all hail from an era that the music media forgot.

m.e

― mark e (mark e), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, The Godfathers were such a great band! If only the lyrics weren't so cringe-inducing, I mean they could be bad to the point of impacting the listening experience negatively.. which is a real shame..

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

james: yer right re some indie musicians and FZ (see pavement, wowee zowie). another reminder that ILM =/= real-life.

all the same, a little more respect for 70s Zappa would be most welcome -- and i think loads of otherwise fine folk with fine taste suffer from the same kneejerk "anti-musical virtuosity" phobia noted upthread. (not coincidentally, ittle feat was formed by a bunch of ex-mothers of inventioners.)

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

My problem with much Zappa: he thinks he's funny. I don't.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i rather liked the godfathers at the time they were around (more specifically, i liked "birth, school, work, death"). they were kinda like the who or the jam without the townshend/weller bullshit.

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

each time i saw em live peter was on fire. physical violence. verbal abuse. all very impressive for a young boy like me. few bands at that time had the same vitriol/anger like they did. i saw tem walk through a very goth crowd in leeds (pre birth school work ..), get on stage, and glare at the crowd. pete then spat 'what the f*ck are you f*ckin goffs doing at my f*ckin' gig, I hate f*cin goffs' and BAM into a blistering bluespunk classic .. i have other stories .. but i gotta sleep .. they were awesome live. the lp's were not a pacth on their performances.
sweet memories.
g'night.
m.e

― mark e (mark e), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah, Mark, I saw them live once too! In fact, they were one of the first groups I saw upon turning 18 and finally being allowed into the rock clubs. They were certainly thrilling live; all motion and intense energy. 13 years on and I still have the mental image of them performing their cover of Lennon's "Cold Turkey", Coyne wrapping his microphone cord around his bare arm to simulate a tourniquet...

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Strange that all but one of you assumes "critical reevaluation" to mean "better than we've tended to think"; what about "we've tended to think of them this way, whereas maybe we could think of them that way"? Which, among other things, might give this thread some content.

Re-evaluating a genre. Dirty South hip-hop: increasing use of film-soundtrack-type orchestral-like music, so further integrating Euroclassical elements into an African American form.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Well the "we used to think of them this way..." (reminds me of Dylan's introduction to "One Too Many Mornings" on his 1966 tour: "it used to go like that, now it goes like this") is sort of what the whole of ILM does, in a scattershot/anarchic fashion. I figured I'd stick with the "historically undervalued" interpretation of the title phrase to keep the thread focused.

Content: Yanc3y answered my question about JT's early records!

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, Elvis Presley - and rock 'n' roll overall - generally (and correctly) believed to have brought country and r&b elements into pop (as well as forming them into something that had never existed before). But he also helped bring pop into country 'n' r&b (not that that wasn't already underway). xgau covered this briefly in a review of some elvis books - "In fact, Elvis's status as rock's only heroic interpreter (not counting, er, Jackie Wilson, the Shirelles, the Temptations, and Aretha Franklin, but bear with me) may just mean he isn't really the first and greatest of the rock and rollers after all. Maybe instead he's a missing link to the pop music he's also known to have loved (Dean Martin, Mario Lanza, the Ink Spots)--the very pop music he was supposed to have destroyed, so that whenever he tried it my generation saw a betrayal imposed by Hollywood, Colonel Parker, his evil twin, or his corrupt nature. As it is still unorthodox to mention, he shares more formally with Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra than with Chuck Berry and Bruce Springsteen. And if Rodman doesn't think Holiday and Sinatra rank as auteurs, he doesn't know as much about popular music as a metatextualizer should."

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

James, I'm also thinking of it as a way of re-evaluating (1) the birth of rock 'n' roll as a '50s movement, and (2) rock 'n' roll's effect on country and r&b. (The qualification "'50s movement" is because the music really started long before then, but its coming to consciousness as a genre name and a movement changed its character.) So one thing that made rock 'n' roll musically revolutionary (and made it a new rock 'n' roll) is that it integrated show music and the old European-derived parlor music and quasi-operatic music into country/r&b form, and its effect on country and r&b was for those musics to take in show music and parlor music to a greater extent than it ever had before. (Not that country and r&b wasn't already pulling in whatever was usable.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 8 August 2003 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

That's an interesting idea, Frank!

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 8 August 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it's so concurrent though I'm not entirely sure it's as a result of rock n roll (or, a bit more specifically, Elvis - since he straddles c&w, r&b, pop, Europe - much more than anyone else that's coming to mind right now). I could see countrypolitan being the result of Elvis channeling Dean Martin (did "Sweet Dreams" come out before "It's Now or Never"?), but it might be more Tony Bennett having a hit with "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" (when was that? pre-Elvis I think). which is maybe what you're saying anyway actually.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

aargh - Tony Bennett had a #1 pop hit with "Cold, Cold Heart", not "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

motorhead's "another perfect day" w/ brian robertson, first david johansen solo record

― dan (dan), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I've wondered about that first david johansen record

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

frank: the stirrings of
what we think of when we say
'early rock and roll'

had no parlor nor
quasi-operatic stuff;
that all came later.

so what cha sayin
is that rock only was rev-
olutionary

after chuck berry
little richard, domino,
buddy holly too,

that its true genius
was when elvis sang it like
mario lanza?

granted that country
and r&b both done changed
but let's tell the truth

elvis gave no birth
he was rocking the baby
but it wasn't his

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Haikunym I can say without reservation that you are my favorite poster. God bless!

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:49 (twenty-two years ago)

David Johansen's first solo lp is his best one, btw.

― Sean (Sean), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

well yeah

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

haikunym - for the record, you do realize that elvis predates chuck berry, buddy holly, et al. ie they don't no nuthin about birthin no babies either, right?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

For ref,

"That's All Right, Mama" - Aug 54 I think
"Maybellene" - Aug 55 I think
I think Holly debuted mid-56 (after seeing Elvis live!)

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 8 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-p blount)

for the record, sure,
if you're talking 'records' but
chuck & penniman

had been playing stuff
for so long in hybrid mode
that it's all quite moot

(berry's style earned him
the nickname 'the black hillbil-
ly in '53)

I was talkin' 'bout
jackie brenton, ike turner,
and hank williams I

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Seals & Crofts, ELO, 10cc, Hall & Oats, Paul McCartney & Wings, Alan Parsons Project, Styx

well, i never listened to any of them until today when i got stuck on a 70s soft rock kick. this shit's actually damn good

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

and that elvis sang
only country/r&b
on his first records

he didn't think he
was dean martin until way
after 'rock' was formed

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

and Haikunym is my favorite poster also. kinda like Dada, but with less bandwith usage

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:04 (twenty-two years ago)

man this haiku shit
is earning me major love
thanks am and Jason

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Elvis was trying to sing like Dino from the get-go!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Haikunym I'm not sure that's true. The "demos" he recorded at Sun prior to his first record include "MY Happiness" and "That's When Your Heartaches" begin. The "narrow" focus of his Sun records was probably shrewd collective decision-making on the part of Elvis, Scotty, and Sam. Greil Marcus (gasp! am I invoking him positively?) says as much when he argues that rather than constrict Elvis, RCA in a sense freed him to record the full range of his tastes.

(x-post)

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

elvis was a sponge:
all music fair game to him,
dino, sure, but blues

and memphis rhythm
(which the rat pack could not swing)
were as important

he was a mimic
of black radio singers
as much as the 'pop'

if 'my happiness'
had been huge for him then sure
but it didn't ROCK

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(i'm getting away
from frank's points, which I will mull
after I get sleep)

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

are those reasons he was great or reasons he wasn't?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

okay next morning
I really think elvis
was huge! important!

(hell my wife wrote her
harvard thesis on the man,
I've done graceland twice)

so yeah I am down
with his funky genre-bend-
ing (y'know, at first)

all I was saying
is that there was no 'parlor'
'quasi-operatic'

style in 'maybelline'
or in 'rocket 88',
'move it on over'

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 8 August 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Buggles

― CNWB, Friday, 8 August 2003 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"Adore".

― Simon H., Friday, 8 August 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

'Exit the Dragon'

― dave q, Friday, 8 August 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the conventional wisdom re Adore? I heard it once and didn't get into it at all. Everyone else around here seems to love it though. I'd totally take Machina II: The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music over that and probably over Mellon Collie as well.

What is the critical line on the connection between prog and disco? Is there one? There should be. I know Chuck Eddy has commented on it a bit.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 8 August 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)"

― sean g, Friday, 8 August 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

sundar the link was touched on by someone here -

Saunderson/Atkins/May vs Moroder/Bellotte/Forsey/Faltermeyer

― dave q, Friday, 8 August 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Love And Rockets - Hot Trip To Heaven

― Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Saturday, 9 August 2003 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

meat puppets II
escape jody harris/robert quine
.."freedom of choice" should be played by marching bands.

― thomas de'aguirre (biteylove), Saturday, 9 August 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

'Meat Puppets II' - word

― dave q, Saturday, 9 August 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Meat Puppets II was pretty much canonical already?

Win, though. (And how 'bout the Fire Engines, while we're at it?) No one but no one I knew bought any Win records except me. "You've got the power to generate fear. Wonder how that record holds up?

― M Specktor (M Specktor), Saturday, 9 August 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

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