When some of y'all say "I hate indie rock", what are you talking about?

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Completely serious, since I've seen that dismissal tossed about here rather frequently. What indie rock are you talking about?

I think I have some idea, i.e. the mop-topped, thin-voiced bastards trying to scam their way into 18yr old girls' pants via insincere tunes about their own sensitivity/boredom with this fucked-up world/etc etc. But I'm not a mind reader...

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Friday, 22 August 2003 04:58 (twenty-two years ago)

why would "all of it" be such a shock?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that's Dashbored Confessional you're talking about. Yeah, I hate them too. Fuck that guy and his hair.

― Helltime Producto (Pavlik), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:00 (twenty-two years ago)

strongo absolutely nothing you say is a shock

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry that didn't come out quite right

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i rate indie hock

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"I smell sex and caaaaaandy here mmhmmmmmmmm..."

― nickalicious playground (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

jim in getting overly defensive out of the gate on a thread with indie the in the title shock.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

ironic head kite

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:04 (twenty-two years ago)

jess in assuming i give that much of a damn anymore shock

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

jess and esoj as mj and mj doing 'state of shock'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

a rich ned i.e. it ok

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I suppose we could technically classify In the Red/Bloodshot/SFTRI as indie labels, but somehow I don't think that's the indie we're talking about.

And the new Poison CD is on an indie label. CC DeVille, most jittery man in indieland.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

right now about half of my ten favorite albums this year are indie rock

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

kid a? hi erection!

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

you know, stuff like Evanescence, Linkin Park, Good Charlotte, Audioslave.

that shit is so lame, whenever it comes on my car-radio, i spin the dial over to some Justin or R.Kelly or whatever - just anything with a freakin' beat, you know? i want to hear something i can DRIVE to!

― BassHed, Friday, 22 August 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I just had the most repulsive "From Justin To R. Kelly" joke run through my head. Thank god it's gone now.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Friday, 22 August 2003 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I just had the most repulsive "From Justin To R. Kelly" joke run through my head. Thank god it's gone now. >>>

That's a Smigel cartoon waiting to happen.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:01 (twenty-two years ago)

In the Red/Bloodshot/SFTRI ok if that's what indie is i'm fully into it. i kind of like pretending i don't even know what it means tho.
(labels i have appeared on btw : new world of sound, carburetor, 18 wheeler, dionysus, that belgian labl that did the 1st king loser album (forgot the name), ecstatic yod (i'm on one song off the Crude Ass Run album), flying nun...dude i'm indie all the way! i just don't really listen to the kind of stuff i figure people usually mean when they say "indie rock")

― duane, Friday, 22 August 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck, duane! I didn't know you played on the King Loser record! *checks record* Yup, there you are. (Turbulence is the label) Oh man, I'm gonna listen to this now. It's been years since I played it.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

He played on more than one

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just listening to it, he doesn't like it

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

is celia as cool as she looks?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

well....uh.....ummmm....she's sorta....oh you know

― duane, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Is she hot?

― BassHed, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw her knickers once! No, twice!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:38 (twenty-two years ago)

When I say it I mean the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, The Thrills, The Kills, The White Stripes (except when 7NA is played in a club), The Flaming Lips, Dashboard Confessional, Bright Eyes, The Datsuns, The Gossip on record, Coldplay and the whole apres-indie polite guitar rock thing (except for the good Coldplay singles), The Stereophonics, The Replacements and most other 80s American rock bands including Husker Du, in fact pretty much everything in that Azzerad book except bits of Sonic Youth and the Buttholes, Fugazi, most other hardcore I've heard, Shellac (Big Black are OK though), Super Furry Animals, nearly all the British bands who sprung up after Belle And Sebastian even those my friends are in, Nirvana, everything that got big in the wake of Nirvana, Oasis, everything that got big in the wake of Oasis, Blur (except for half-a-dozen singles), Cat Power, Bikini Kill, At The Drive In, And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead, WILCO WILCO WILCO, the latest Radiohead album, Sigur Ros, GYBE, Mogwai, Cosmic Rough Riders and assorted retrosixties fellow travellers, The Postal Service, Modest Mouse, The Vines, I could go on but you get the idea I think.

I don't mean The Strokes, The Clientele, Pulp, The Beta Band, Broadcast, The Magnetic Fields, most trendy DFA stuff, ARE Weapons, Belle And Sebastian up to a year or two ago, the Gossip live, The Darkness, The Pixies, Junior Senior, early 90s indie-dance, or nostalgic Brit-indie from the Wedding Present backwards.

The list in the first para I could parse into bands I despise and bands I respect but wouldn't want to listen to. It would be about half and half.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 08:53 (twenty-two years ago)

are the wedding present backwards better or worse than the wedding present the way they expect you to play them?

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 22 August 2003 09:04 (twenty-two years ago)

They're better Mark, you can hear secret messages. If you play "My Favourite Dress" backwards David Gedge says "HAW HAW those indie losers will eat this one up now pass me a brewski and lets go get ourselves some PUSSY!"

(nb: In the hate list above I very importantly forgot Guided By Voices, Built To Spill, all Elephant 6 bands and most of all UNREST!)

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate rock, and I'm not kidding. I've never listened to rock, and probably never will. So I guess this includes "indie rock" as well, even though I'm not quite sure what "indie rock" actually means.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 22 August 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

http://hem.passagen.se/dig_fanzine/dig5/fugazi.jpg

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I've actually realized that unless it's psychedelicish (Flaming Lips, Clinic) or garagerocky (Hives, White Stripes), I don't really give much of a shit for indie rock. Except Built to Spill, and that is because of GITAR POWAR

But remind me to never ever ever go on a ten hour road trip with Tom, who has somehow managed to name almost every single rock band from 1980 onwards that I like

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

(Here we've been slagging jess and blount when the REAL ENEMY of indie was here all along! gasp horror)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

That missing pic = Fugazi looking especially lame (red x = COMMUNIST STRAIGHTEDGE, DUDE)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

There's really only a tiny fraction of indie that's of any interest to me anymore, and I hate the indie/pitchfork mentality where other genres dance, rap, pop etc. is ignored or considered inferior.

― Larcole (Nicole), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just being honest Nate! I can't imagine much more horrible than listening to lots of indie in a car, even the stuff I like. Luckily I can't drive.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Look what is being inflicted on Glasgow this Sunday:

The Big Day Out On The Green 2003

featuring:

Red Hot Chili Peppers
The Foo Fighters
Queens Of The Stone Age
PJ Harvey
Electric Six
The Distillers

Even the name of the thing needs a kicking. And it's sold out!

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

OH! I also forgot RHCP, Foo Fighters and QOTSA!

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

It sold out????

― Larcole (Nicole), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

But Tom, you love those crazy Electric Six guys, right?

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

On the basis of their Glastonbury performance, Electric Six are arse apart from Danger! High Voltage and Gay Bar.

The idea that Jess doesn't like indie rock is a strange one.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"Danger High Voltage" is good enough to make me forgive them, they are dreadful live though. Also I have never heard (of) The Distillers, maybe they will save indie.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate the word 'indie'. If I had my way I would ban its use from ILX, especially used as shorthand for all guitar music that isn't metal and big stadium Magic FM AOR rock.

(X-Post - RickyT is OTM).

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

There's lots of stuff I left out like Pavement and Stereolab that I'm sort of neutral about too, or Spiritualized or Mercury Rev who I used to love and it doesn't feel right saying I hate them now. Time to go to a record shop for more inspiration.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok it's pretty clear "indie rock" barely even exists as any kind of useful term

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom - just out of interest, is the like/dislike ratio with 'indie' any different to that of hip-hop, chart pop, dance or anything else? Or do you just notice the stuff you dislike more because you're an ex-indie kid?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Outside of "a bunch of stuff by some guys that I don't like" that shifts w/every user of the term

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Matt with that stuff the bulk of it is in the neutral section. I'd say if I downloaded 10 pop singles I'd like about 5 of them though, same for hip-hop, slightly lower for dance. I think I do still notice the other stuff more though these days I hear about most of it through ILM over-exposure.

The i-word isn't entirely useless, it works as a broad category and like any broad category it works better the further from it you are, i.e. it is as useful a category as "the planet Earth", if you're an Inuit your experience of it is v. different from that of a Bedouin, if you're an astronaut your perspective is likely to be different again though maybe no 'truer'.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

u r all corny planet earth fuxx

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

That said, despite the shedloads of guitar bands I am happy to admit to liking (many of which appear in one or the other of Tom's lists), most of the music I really and truly despise to the extent of wanting to jump across the room and turn the radio off the second I hear it is also broadly speaking 'indie'. A lot of the time it comprises my favourite and least favourite music as once.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 19 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

(this totally goes for me too.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

My last comment was intended for Mr Harvell, I regret any confusion. Sir, I assure you I am perfectly capable so far as the art of reading is concerned!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"I smell sex and caaaaaandy here mmhmmmmmmmm..."
Doesn't count. As far as I'm concerned 'Indie' replaced 'College Rock'; and we are all the poorer for it.
< OLD CRANKY MAN>Why, when I was young, we had GOOD indie music, like The Cure, Husker Du, The Smiths, Falling Joys. Dagnabbit, I remember when Soul Asylum actually didn't stink all that bad. I remember when 'Indie' meant "here's some awesome musician or band thats just as good as any other good band...it's just their not famous yet."
When 'indie' went from being a temporary condition to a way of life, something was lost.
Now its all a copy of a copy of a copy. Bah! Where's my Metamucil!< /OLD CRANKY MAN>

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

OLD CRANKY MAN

Old?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Such facts as what you call "indie rock" being merely a terribly besieged branch of rock that needs to defend itself valiantly against the encroachments of "black" music?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I think part of the problem is that 'Indie' (by which I mean the stuff that calls itself Indie nowaways) might have that attitude.
Real (cough cough) Indie (as in everything up to the salad days of Nirvana and Green Day) actually loved and upheld lots of traditionally "black" (cough cough cough hack cough hack) music:
Dub/Reggae, Disco, Motown-esque Pop, early Hip-hop, Avant-Jazz*, etc.
Anyhow...Rock itself is deeply indebted and rooted in "black" (COUGH cough COUGH COUGH hack hack COUGH hack COUGH) music. Rockers trying to run away from "blackness" (wheeeeze) are like marathon runners trying to run away from their own shadow.

* Note=Alot the greats of avant-minded jazz (Davis, Coleman, Sun Ra) were Black.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord, Why Don't We?
We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony
Ebony, Ivory, Ooh

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony

― jack cole (jackcole), Friday, 22 August 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

What I find baffling in this discussion here is that nobody really has hit on the real heart of the matter dichotomy - that of indie vs. corporate/major label.

As everyone has already noted, indie rock is barely a viable genre in and of itself. Much like Ralph Nader, it only exists in self-conscious opposition to the dominant powers that be. If anything that's what leaves it open to charges of "elitism" (and not to push the Nader metaphor but it's funny that people here charge indie rock with being "white" in the same way they accused Nader supporters of being as well - true on both counts).

What I really fucking hate about elements of the "anti-indie" crowd though is its reactionary, thoroughly deluded "populism".

― Jacobo, Friday, 22 August 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

well, possibly one of the reasons "no one has really hit on it here" is that we've had this argument abt 340 million times already on ilm, and a lot of contributors are being pretty halfhearted cz we're bored witless with it, unfortunately

if you mean "elements of the 'anti-indie' crowd" here on this boared, i think yr wrong — or shd anyway provide examples

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

mark i honestly think there's been enough new user turnover for this to be a "new" discussion.

naysayers in not providing examples shocker.

i find the idea of an indie label as inherently ethical over a major laughable, since quite a few are distributed by the same machine that gives us majors, and plenty are just as "evil."

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate that it's the default position for what's considered acceptable taste in the (sub[ish]) culture I live in.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

When I say "I hate indie rock" what I mean is "I hate horn-rim glasses".

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

From some of the horror stories I have heard from indie artists, I hardly consider indie labels a more fair or ethical means of distributing music than the major labels.

― Larcole (Nicole), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well, this is all old ground, but it's pretty depressing to listen to and love all kinds of shit and have to do it pretty much in private, especially when it's stuff that is more explicitly "social" in its production and intended reception anyway.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, no, when I say "I hate indie rock" I really mean "wow, that Malkmus writes some retarded songs huh?"

(this coming from the guy listening to a song called "Hey There Fancypants" right now)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 22 August 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Liking a Superchunk song has made me very confused on this front.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

*hands custos his cough medicine*

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i prefer indie as a economic term. (as jacobo mentioned.) as a musical genre, it has no meaning because it's too contradictory just like "alternative" is. it covers too much ground. when mc 900 foot jesus and godspeed you black emperor can sort of ride in the same boat, you've pretty much tossed meaning out to fit everyone in.

ugh... *sometimes* i hate troll threads like this. ultimately it's everybody's turn to dredge out their favorite voodoo dolls and start poking them with hip implements of pain.

oh [genre] sucks because of this band and that band and [insert generalization here] and everyone who listens to them are [blah blah blah] and i hate that. [ == which is all one big generalization on it's own so i guess i'm no better.]

i dislike modest mouse.
m.

― msp, Friday, 22 August 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think one element that gets missed (or at least is undervalued) is that of exposure. For me, most music I don't like is pretty avoidable so actively hating it seems pointless. For some of the music critics on ILM, the indie (or rockist or whatever) obsession is more in their face, so they take issue. (I guess stating that casual fans don't really care who does or doesn't listen to the music they like is pretty obvious.)

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 22 August 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

and I hate the indie/pitchfork mentality where other genres dance, rap, pop etc. is ignored or considered inferior.

And its funny how the most vital indie borrows from those and other genres (my personal experience is that the bands are usually a lot more open-minded about other genres than their fans are). Can anyone imagine how dismal indie would have been and would be without St. Et, Pulp or DFA? Even Gish was practically a funk record at times.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 22 August 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i find the idea of an indie label as inherently ethical over a major laughable, since quite a few are distributed by the same machine that gives us majors, and plenty are just as "evil."

SST to thread!

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 22 August 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

*hands custos his cough medicine*
Mmmm. Grape flavor.
(*downs entire bottle*)
Ahhhh....gotta love that codeine and alchohol...

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

So who said indie labels were inherently ethical? Did anyone? They must be pretty dumb lol

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Saturday, 23 August 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Well...(long painful sigh)...compared to the majors...a good, concientious indie label is not as evil as a megalocorporate zaibatsu that has no interest in musicians other than as pop culture cannon fodder. (in other words, a baby leech isn't as harmful as a rabid vampire.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

the only ethical indie label is when you self-release

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Saturday, 23 August 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

also, leeches exist, vampires do not

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 August 2003 02:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(that had nothing to do with how the metaphor worked. Just sayin' is all)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 23 August 2003 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

no it had everything to do w/the metaphor, and good on you for it

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 23 August 2003 02:49 (twenty-two years ago)

no it had everything to do w/the metaphor, and good on you for it

so is that a denial of nonethical behavior from some major label employees and various related interests?

― msp, Saturday, 23 August 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

no, it's a very sharp metaphorical pinprick in the absolutist part of the usual argument given in this situation. obviously major labels fuck people over, I've seen it happen, it's ugly as hell. but indies do too and there's lots of people (not nec. you) who overlook it too conveniently and that's why I thought NP's comment was funny.

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 23 August 2003 03:17 (twenty-two years ago)

the only ethical indie label is when you self-release
Very true.
That said, some indies started out as someone self-releasing...and then they started releasing music by their friends...then by bands they liked but were not personally friends with...then complete strangers...
Eventually, they end up in the same state as David Geffen: "I Won't sign more people than can fit in my hot-tub at one time" (then immediately goes out and signs 10,000 people...)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

hey started releasing music by their friends...then by bands they liked but were not personally friends with...then complete strangers... - this is literally the story of Geffen Records (and Emperor Norton Records)(the difference being David Geffen didn't inherit his millions)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:26 (twenty-two years ago)

This is probably the literal life story of a bunch of the 'bigger' indies. (I guess the exception is SST, which started out as, what, a place for getting parts for building radios/cbs or somesuch.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 04:28 (twenty-two years ago)

the question of ethics doesn't arise out of the ways companies treat artists, it arises out of the ways they treat secretaries, assistants, van drivers, office cleaners etc: an ethical indie would be one where the junior postgirl automatically and unthinkingly gets the same respect — and wages? — as the most favoured mini-star on the roster

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 August 2003 07:19 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck yes

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 23 August 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway when i say me no likey indierock i usually probably mean music that uses the rocknroll instrumental combo format without the heft & dynamics

― duane (24 hour troubleshooter), Saturday, 23 August 2003 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

...but the junior postgirl probably gets health and dental.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 08:15 (twenty-two years ago)

in what socialist paradise?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 23 August 2003 08:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ok maybe not her, but the secretaries etc. i seem to remember some indie band having a tiff abt this when they signed to a bigger label; asking for a smaller advance if they were put on the same plans as label employees, label was adamant, no way.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm english!! dental = you get to share the office set of false teeth three hours a week

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 August 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

also: i did actually say "the same as", so an example where it was different kinda makes my point...

note (just to be clear): the label boss has to be ensnared in this exact same also

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 August 2003 08:31 (twenty-two years ago)

(hmm you know I worry that the art-impulse and the profit-motive are basically the same thing) (I put this in parens because it probably can't be answered at all, let alone on an indie suxx pt xx thread)

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

why is the idea that art-impulse and profit-motive are the same a bad thing? music for imagined audiences>music for self? contradiction between self and other? look at the renegade blackmarket capitalism of dance music, tunes that try and work within parameters of dancefloor/market, have to innovate to satisfy creativity and funcionality (same as tin pan alley etc, they had to be good but they had to succeed financially). combine creativity and functionality and you have the best pop music. otherwise you are left with mere hobbyism

― gareth (gareth), Saturday, 23 August 2003 09:15 (twenty-two years ago)

true enough, but I meant profit-motive as in the willingness to put yourself at the top of a heirarchy. as I think more abt this it's probably a dumber idea on the artist end; ie stuck on romantic notion of artist as hero lifting himself above (trampling on) his audience. mark's label boss 'ensnared in this exact same' made me think, in the voice of said boss, reactionarily, 'what would be the point?'

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

well, even if you do get fucked over by an indie you at least get an outlet for yr music bcz the major labels won't take a chance.

but to ans the q: like a lot of genres there are strands of it that I have little time for. As for indie rock it has to be the belle and sebastien end of things but I do take each band on its merits (I do like some Felt, for instance).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 23 August 2003 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

btw I didn't mean "true enough" to sound dismissive; I agree with your point but it wasn't what I was thinking of.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

there's some crossover here with Artlessness. (did i need to put an 'i' in front of that to make it link? i hope not.)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Saturday, 23 August 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't mean to suggest that indie labels are inherently more ethical than major labels. To use another bad analogy, about six or seven years ago, I worked on indie films and almost all of the producers I worked with were the most unethical sleazy bastards on par with the worst Hollywood studio execs (except they were paying you shit wages instead of the nice studio union pay).

All I was just trying to suggest that the major appeal of indie music in general is ideological. So when people bash indie music as a general category, I get a bit confused since what exactly are they bashing? (except that it seems reactionary/just to be contrary).

The other primary appeal of indie music is intimacy. Not to be confused with sincerity (since many indie artists a la Malkmus and Merrit are pretty far from sincere) but in indie music there is a lot less distance between the producer and the consumer so it feels accessible in a way that pop music doesn't. Maybe it's the small size of venues, the lyrics, the production, whatever - and it's debatable whether it's real or imagined but it's still part of the appeal. But I guess one of the beauties(?) of American Idol is that it is collapsing that sane distance in pop music.

― Jacobo, Saturday, 23 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm english!! dental = you get to share the office set of false teeth three hours a week
ouch.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 23 August 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

anyhow...
Post-Punk == Grebt!
College Rock == Just as Grebt!
Grunge == Good!
Alternative == Passible
Current "Indie" == Ack, Pthhhhhtbpptt!
http://www.danlewis.net/bill_cat.gif

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Sunday, 24 August 2003 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

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