Is Hip-Hop the only popular music with the best music also the most popular music?

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That title is a freaking mess.

A lot of members on this board seem to believe that very popular, mainstream hip-hop is the best hip-hop being made today (ie. Timbaland and Neptunes stuff). I have no idea if this is true or not, but it would set hip-hop apart from other kinds of popular music. The best and the most popular are seldom the same these days.

What makes Hip-Hop different? Why did this happen in Hip-Hop?

Your thoughts, please (if you have any idea what the hell I'm talking about).

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

yes.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

yes?

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:32 (twenty-one years ago)

yes i think that hip hop is the only popular music where the best music also the most popular music.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Right.

This thread is off to a slow start.

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

we need a 'maybe.'

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Uhh, no...I love Jay-Z, Outkast, Luda, and all of the Neptunes/Timbaland/Kanye/Jus Blaze shit, but pretty all of my favorite hip-hop records of the year have been well below the mainstream radar: Non-Prophets, Cunninlynguists, Danger Mouse and Jemini, Mars Ill, Jean Grae, and esp. all of MF Doom's shit.

― Josh Love (screamapillar), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Hip-hop is actually the only genre where only the popular stuff counts as music, since all those underground acts never have melodic choruses.

― Geirvald Hongfjeld jr., Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I would argue though that hip-hop is the only genre where the mainstream shit is even passably good. Mainstream rock music is a complete fucking joke, mainstream pop is mostly worthless (ususally only good when there's a pronounced hip-hop element), but mainstream hip-hop is actually quite excellent (even though I still prefer the undie ish).

― Josh Love (screamapillar), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow Geir, you really are into this theory of yours.

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"I would argue though that hip-hop is the only genre where the mainstream shit is even passably good. Mainstream rock music is a complete fucking joke, mainstream pop is mostly worthless (ususally only good when there's a pronounced hip-hop element), but mainstream hip-hop is actually quite excellent (even though I still prefer the undie ish)."

I guess my question really would be, 'why is that so?'

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm. Somebody on ILM is obviously familiar with Sigvald Grøsfjeld Jr. :-)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

i honestly don't know...rock music's not selling, so i have no idea why all these shitty same-sounding bands keep getting signed.

― Josh Love (screamapillar), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont have a clue - hip hop producers are minutely interested in the sonics of their sound, the fact that most hip hop now has very little to say is residual. whereas most rock neither has anything interesting to say nor do many of them seem interested in the sound itself.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

having said that id rather listen to buck 65 than busta.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the point of this thread (and its a worthy one) is that a good chunk of mainstream rock is terrible. But I don't think it works for any other genre.

― Mark (MarkR), Saturday, 15 November 2003 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It's kind of interesting that Hip-Hop has returned to it's party roots. There was a time there in the '90s when Hip-Hop was really head music and often political. Even G-Funk was political, or at least controversial.

Some of the best talent in Hip-Hop seem to be mostly interested in making the 'slamminest' beats. Maybe Timbaland and the Neptunes understand what drives popular music, while rock bands are more interested in 'expression' and 'art.'

― Debito (Debito), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

well if we are talking about poular rock it only seems to be interested in recycling. maybe its dead?

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:06 (twenty-one years ago)

But, is 50 Cent (just as an example of the most popular Hip Hop) really the best the genre can offer? Seems to me that, say, the Jurassic Five guys are a bit more inventive, but they don't make anywhere near the sales of the 50 Cent.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

haha jurrasic five might be "inventive" if this was 1981

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

cold crush are spinning in their retirement home beds

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Debito - yep, I was listening to "Wu-Tang Forever" the other week and I find it hard to imagine something so Afrocentric being so big now. I'm uncomfortable with such a narrow idea of "what drives popular music", though - Andre 3000 surely proves that wrong?

Incidentally, neither 50 Cent nor Jurassic 5 are innovative in the slightest (well, 50's rhyming isn't, though the rotting-industrial-edifice production on "In Da Club" hit me hard before it became overplayed) - it's just that 50 Cent hits certain signifiers which are currently lucrative in the extreme.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I predict this thread will get ugly. Namecalling within the next twenty posts...

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

jerkass

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I guess Jurassic 5 were a bad example (being that their whole schtick is decidedly retro). But, how about....ummmmm....(this is really not my department)...hell, even MC Paul Barman is a swifter, more intelligent rapper than 50 Cent. I think "In Da Club" and "Wanksta" were really no great shakes, and I have no idea why he's so exalted (yeah, I know he's been shot seventy-five times....that doesn't improve his music).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

What is innovative about J5? The fact you can have a group of three rappers that sound the same and aren't really very good surround a single above-average rhymer?

Scratch that. MC Paul Barman is not good at rapping. I may enjoy his music for it's humor, good production and idiosyncratic nature, but seriously, he's fucking offbeat. 50 Cent has maybe one of the best flows in the industry, along with the genuine ability to make picture perfect hooks. I don't like anything else about his music, but he runs those two markets. MC Paul Barman....uhhh...well, he raps palindromes, I guess? Get serious, dude.

As for the question, I'm inclined to disagree. It's more like the popular music is listenable and/or on par with the more underground works. But the lesser known rap music (Aesop Rock, El-P, MF Doom, RJD2, Prefuse 73) is, for me at least, more enjoyable. Then again, Jay-Z is the best rapper alive. So what am I even saying?

Why this happened to hip-hop? Hmmm....I think because of the relatively limited nature of production resources in the genre, producers are forced to more out of their music from less. It's also one of the few genres where making good music is relatively profitable too.

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"MC Paul Barman is not good at rapping. I may enjoy his music for it's humor, good production and idiosyncratic nature, but seriously, he's fucking offbeat. 50 Cent has maybe one of the best flows in the industry,"

I've never understood what's so all-important about flow. It reminds me of "swing," a quality formalists use to beat weirdos over the head with. If you "enjoy [Barman's] music for its humor" then on some level you must think his delivery is effective, right? If 50's content is weak, does flow really compensate for that?

That said, I go back and forth on Barman, depending on my mood, and enjoy 50 in small doses (a single at a time). But I guess I just use different criteria.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:35 (twenty-one years ago)

If 50's content is weak, does flow really compensate for that?

A thousand times yes. Content? The listener should only care about it if the artist does.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

"The listener should only care about it if the artist does."

What gives the artist the right to tell me what to care about?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm saying that "flow" is can indeed be likened to "swing," and if you're listening to a hot fucking swing number and complaining that the lyrics are clunky and all about girls, you're being thick.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:45 (twenty-one years ago)

And really, the flow is all-important. "Conscious" lyrics that have no flow are still wack.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

All I'm saying is not all jazz has to swing, and not all hip hop has to flow. It's a matter of the MC finding the right rhythm for his voice and his rhymes, and if that's suitably eccentric or even awkward, that's cool with me, as long as it works within the context of the song.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)

And of course rhythm and the grain of a voice can override verbal content, I just don't think they AUTOMATICALLY do. There is music that swings that feels empty, after all.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a matter of the MC finding the right rhythm for his voice and his rhymes

Um... that's what flow is.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Even young Mike Skinner has flow, IMO.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:58 (twenty-one years ago)

There is music that swings that feels empty, after all.

No, there's not. If it swings it is by definition not entirely empty. These words -- "flow," "swing," "rock" -- describe a value, not a measurable quality. When it's hot, you know it. If you know the language, you can always hear someone speaking it well.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:00 (twenty-one years ago)

That's how I'd like to use the term flow too. But I tend to see it applied in much more restrictive ways. If I'm wrong, great, one less battle to fight. But I expect that your (and my) opinion that Mike Skinner has flow won't go unchallenged.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Again, in regard to swing and rock. If that's how you define your terms, I won't argue with you. But there are others who define them in a more formalist way.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Not anyone worth their salt, I'd say.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:14 (twenty-one years ago)

All right--we agree! We win! Thread over.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, we were off topic all along. I don't know how to begin to tackle the thread question. It's dense.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Some people say that hip hop is so dominant and popular because the values that have come to be adopted by certain members of the urban poor, due to their impoverishment, - values such as success at all costs, money over everything, sell whatever you have to sell (women's bodies, violence) to get rich, steal whatever you can (the best from other music)- chime with late twentieth century capitalism and give its corruption a veneer of legitimacy. Of course this isn't all that hip hop is and it may be racist or 'classist' to say that because a lot of hip hop tries to raise consciousness as well, and of course musically it's not simple theft, it's brilliant juxtapositions and original inventions and all sorts of things ... But I thought it was worth raising the idea that this may be PART of the reason hip hop is so dominant. Check P. Diddy's style here. Musically, I suppose you could say that hip hop is like a shock, almost a slap in the face, of intensely refined pleasures from all musical forms. And this is maybe good or bad. Does it devalue pleasure and make it too easy? Or is it part of a teleological progression towards the ultimate music? Or what?

― - (maryann), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:37 (twenty-one years ago)

How about jus the fact that everything that can be done with a guitar, bass and drums has been done? For the most part...I can't think of a group doing something interesting with that instrumentation any more. And clearly, that is the instrumentation that defines "rock."
Hip hop has the advantage of digital production...the best "rock" albums of the past 10 years have incorporated hip hop/ electronic elements.

― ddrake, Saturday, 15 November 2003 07:39 (twenty-one years ago)

hiphop has a cool style, which partly includes mega-richness. So the hiphop acts can get popular = rich and improve their style at the same time.
and you can dance to the music.

― A Nairn (moretap), Saturday, 15 November 2003 08:06 (twenty-one years ago)

How about jus the fact that everything that can be done with a guitar, bass and drums has been done?

Well, that's not QUITE the case. A lot of bands are now doing great things with a guitar, bass, drums, plus some other shit, whatever that might be -- electronics, accordions, flutes, kazoos, white robes and choirs, whatever. Still, this is telling of a certain problem with guitar, bass, and drums alone. I would argue that the problem is lack of imagination.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 08:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, that's not fair. The bands that are bothering to add other stuff to the sound are exhibiting no lack of imagination. It's just that so much of the music being made on those simple instruments is dry and bad and whiny and terribly MTV-ready, or else it's singer-songwriter stuff or country, and thus ignored by this board. Guitar-bass-drums still happens, it's just a long way ffrom being the vanguard right now. And it is, like I said, ignored by this board.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 08:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Or maybe it really is dead.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 08:21 (twenty-one years ago)

How about jus the fact that everything that can be done with a guitar, bass and drums has been done?

By the same token, how much longer are we going to be subjected to rappers constantly extolling their status as moneymakin', pimpin' playas? I mean, hasn't THAT been done to fuckin' death too?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 November 2003 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

It's been done about as much as big dick-swingin' riffs are in rock, and it's just as much a staple of the genre. How 'done' you think it is is a matter of pure taste.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 15 November 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 34 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Maybe a sucky hip-hop track is, for some reason, easier for even a casual, not-obsessed-with-music listener to distinguish from a good hip-hop track?

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Monday, 17 November 2003 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

mainstream hip-hop is better than underground hip-hop. mainstream rappers have been subjected to many tests of their ability in their rise to the top of the game or whatever. tests like jigga having crack in his palms evading the long arm of the law like being smooth and smart enough to get to the top like having a FLOW. yeah

j5 has flow like 1991 before crack dealers emerged as the smartest black people.

paul barman is a dork and a nerd. he takes too much pride in being clever. at least that's what pharrell told me.

production in rap is run by individuals who have the best ears for making hot beats. everything puffy touched used to turn to gold. primo can put together sounds more skillfully than anyone. the neptunes supposedly have bounce? no, they went to music school and have ears, skill and vocal talent they're putting into a vision of the ultimate pop music. yeah, that britney track was hot.

underground producers use cheap equipment and the same formula. turntables are going to be generally obsolete. the only person who can do anything interesting with a beat machine is madlib. every underground producer bites that one beat pete rock keeps remixing and puts some anonymous (and often beautiful) 70's melody in a loop, etc, etc, etc.

― asfdzxc (asfdzxc), Monday, 17 November 2003 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah. jay-z talks more beautifully than anyone else? fuck conscious rap. aceyalone sucks.

― asfdzxc (asfdzxc), Monday, 17 November 2003 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, but apparently Jay-Z sez "Hip-hop's corny now.". Not that I'm much of an Aceyalone fan myself.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Nelly doesn't come up enough in this thread.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Aceyalone didn't always suck.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000005HT5.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

that wounded 'ilm rap fan' parody is more right than wrong! (except the bit that has britney fans singing the praises of crack dealers perhaps)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

one thing i've noticed about hiphop is that there seems to be more of a consensus about what's good than in other forms of music...
aside from people having personal preferences,discussions about hip hop seem to be based on the presumption that it can be judged objectively...
for example,nearly everyone seems to agree that,whatever you think of his themes,eminem is the best rapper in the world at the moment...
i remember seeing a program about him and they had all these undie/conscious rappers on talking about how he was the best rapper around,i couldn't really imagine the equivalent happening in rock,grandaddy saying that limp bizkit are the best band or whatever...
it seems people in hip hop are more likely to acknowledge something as being good if it is,regardless of whether theyre into it...
is it just me or does anyone else know what i'm talking about?

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

and since you brought it up, i like how in "h.o.v.a" jay stretches out the "long arm of the law" line, it always makes me think of that creeping monty python arm that steals the leaf obscuring the genitals of the david, i imagine it slowly making its way around the corner to jay under the lamppost.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

i wasn't so hot on it at first, but redman's "i see dead people" is pretty great. i suppose it's obvious and manipulative, but when that big l "i was born dead" sample comes in (i like the way the samples sound so 'lifted' yknow? like recently exhumed bits of history with the grit and grain still on them) i get the shivers. i mean jeff buckley fans are always goin on about that bit where he spookily predicts death at sea, can't i haunt myself with this? it's a lot more cutting i think.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah i really like that song as well,was it a single?
i've never seen a video or anything...
not that i get to see many hip hop videos or anything,but i've never heard mention of it outside ilm

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Nelly

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:59 (twenty-one years ago)

hey robin interesting points in your post about consensus, I think that sense of hip hop "unity" given by finding a supposedly-objective consensus is why I have so little time for hip hop these days. I don't know if I'd start another thread about it (I'm not much of a "head") but it'd be an interesting starting point for discussion.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:01 (twenty-one years ago)

consensus? look at the "black album: c/d" thread where everyone rates their top 10 tracks completely differently! people are all like, "kanye sucks" / "no, kanye's the bomb", "pharrel's falling off" / "gotta give it to pharrel", etc. etc. etc.

see also jay-z v nas, 2pac v biggie, undie v indie. i really don't see what you're talking about, robin.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:04 (twenty-one years ago)

well, i do agree about the consensus that it can be judged objectively, and i do find that one of the more thrilling aspects of hip-hop. same reason i like to listen to commercial rap radio on weekend evenings, i get to listen to everyone call in and weigh in on their favorite tracks, make requests, dedications, etc. it's like an all-city ILM!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:05 (twenty-one years ago)

people will pick their fave tracks as the album as still new, but over time a clearer consensus will emerge. I don't know, it just seems different from other genres in some way. F'instance, I can think of multiple famous dead rock stars who've had their images tarnished after death, which seems pretty far afield from hip-hop. The way people talk about Tupac now makes it seem pretty easy to forget that not everyone loved him when he was alive.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:10 (twenty-one years ago)

well, that may have as much to do w/ the fact that life-and-death drama is a bigger theme in rap than rock than anything specifically related to tupac. besides, what about eazy e?

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

well Bone Thugs had him leading everybody into heaven in the video for "Tha Crossroads," so he's at least a minor saint.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:17 (twenty-one years ago)

ohhh, i missed that. okay scratch that example.

BIG LURCH!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:19 (twenty-one years ago)

wait he's not dead.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:19 (twenty-one years ago)

when i was talking about consensus i meant about who was the best rapper really not about production...
and yeah,undie fans think undie is better,but thats more of an ideological thing,i think a lot of undie fans who are mainly into hip hop (as opposed to people for whom undie is the acceptable face of hip hop) would still say eminem is the best rapper,or ackowledge that the reasons they like undie is cause they think hip hop should be more positive/less money oriented...
i mean,i've talked to people who are into hip hop who will say "yeah,my favourite group is the roots,i like hip hop which doesn't just go on about the same thing,or i think hip hop should have a more positive message" but will still concede that the mainstream has the best beats/rappers
i cant imagine an indie fan saying "yeah i like radiohead because i identify with what they talk about but i have to admit nickelback are the best band"
i'm not really trying to make a coherent arguement,this is a vague impression,something that i've noticed,i could be wrong though
but it does seem the notion of the "best" exists more in hip hop than in other genres

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.coastaltown.nildram.co.uk/images/focus2.jpg

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

full disclosure:i live in ireland and only know a few people who are really into hip hop
(but this idea is based on the people who are really into it,and the contrast between them and most of my friends,who like some hip hop but its not the main type of music they listen to)

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I really should've spent more time on that one but you get the idea.

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

This isn't unique to hip-hop though. Many forms of African-American popular music traditionally see themselves as disciplines to be mastered and value an expression of skill, "good" voices, technical accomplishment, over (a certain strain of) rock's amateurish anyone-can-do-it innovation, which you can trace vocally (at least) to Dylan and ideologically (at least) to punk.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

A big generalization, admittedly.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is getting very interesting as it starts to dovetail with some larger ILM themes (or aesthetic issues in general).

― Spectator, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

like what else?
(excuse my ignorance)
x-post,response to two posts up

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

in the limit of t -> infinity all ILM goes to "indie guilt: c/d"

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Jazz, soul, gospel, funk, R&B, etc.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Where's the indie guilt here?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's sort of still bubbling under...

oh my god you guys are like a steel spike in a bald tire. You take all the fun out of music. You fuckin' suck.

though on rereading the thread this may be the larger ILM issue that phil spectator is referring to.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe you weren't being sarky,but if you'll excuse me saying so i obviously know that other examples of "African American popular music" include "Jazz, soul, gospel, funk, R&B, etc."
i was more wondering what consensus' existed within these genres,how they manifested themselves,etc

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, didn't mean to come off as dickish. If you prefer Otis Redding to Solomon Burke, for instance, you can refer back to certain formal characteristics in their delivery. Not something you can (or at least would) do necessarily if you prefer Sleater-Kinney to Team Dresch.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:01 (twenty-one years ago)

jazz is very amenable to hongrean analytics

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

'fraid so

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway i think the second part of keith's post is much more key. rock's really hamstrung with the whole "amateurish=sincere" (indie) or "the sadder and more beat i look and sound the realer" (mainstream) ideology. the more interesting rock artists today are ignoring/complicating this ideology.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(I know it's corny posting under another name, though Phil Spectator would be a good one, but I try to remain a spectator on hip-hop threads, or else I end up saying the same thing over and over again.)

vahid, actually I was thinking more of the issues of objectivity/consensus/subjectivity and especially technique vs. that certain something (though that might be more of a personal interest right now, since I've been thinking about the way some genres seem to simply require that performers have a certain high level of technique, which means that there is a limit to how many artists are even going to be considered as candidates for "the best" of that genre).

― Spectator (Rockist Scientist), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

blount otm waaaay above. i can't think of a single time when pop country >>>> undie country (depending on how we classify gram, anyway)(duh, he was rawk)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Good Charlotte is the best pop-punk band today and the most successful
Linkin Park is the best rap-metal band today and the most successful -except possibly for Limp Bizkit, who are also pretty damn successful

Being the "best pop-punk" or "best rap-metal" band is like being the most polite child molester.

― Michael Patrick Brady (Michael Patrick Brady), Monday, 17 November 2003 05:14 (twenty-one years ago)

ie. totally rock n roll

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 17 November 2003 05:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Hip-Hop artists understand the importance of hit singles.

The single is still alive in Hip-Hop. Hip-hop songs create serious buzz ('Have you heard the new...').

That really isn't the case in rock. Occasionally a pop or rock single blows-up, but it happens more often with Hip=hop.

I don't pay attention to the charts or watch MTV, so I could be wrong about this.

― Debito (Debito), Monday, 17 November 2003 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Do J5 and Roots really sell that much less than 'pop' rap?
Here in Vancouver, the charts usually show Blazing Arrow selling about as much as Blueprint 2. Seems like there's a huge market for conscious stuff. If conscious is nearly as popular as gangsta, is is still true that the best is also the most popular?

― Shmuel (shmuel), Monday, 17 November 2003 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Motown/Otis/Aretha = Best and most popular.

― Shmuel (shmuel), Monday, 17 November 2003 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

really glad Blount said country above (I was wondering if I'd have to). good Toby Keith is MILES better than the good half of, to pick an example, that Rough Trade Shops Country thing, for similar reasons that mainstream rap tends to be better than undie rap: it's not afraid of itself, it goes for pleasure, it's more fun and more inventive. and when I dislike the Keith record it's generally because he's being an annoying jerk--just like when I don't like mainstream rappers!--rather than because the music or the tunes fall short.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"Mathematics" don't lie whereas "language" can and does

― dave q, Monday, 17 November 2003 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

But what about the other contestable claim i.e. that in most forms of music the most popular != the best?

Surely, at least for a week:
Busted = most popular / best punk band
Britney featuring Madonna = most popular / best pop/rock
Kylie Minogue = most popular / best electronica
Fatman Scoop = most popular / best fratboy rock
Outkast = most popular / best psychedelica
Blazin' Squad = most popular / best bubblegum
Black-Eyed Peas = most popular / best folk-protest song
Ronan Keating = most popular / best crooner
Missy Elliot = most popular / best singer-songwriter

― alext (alext), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

re: hiphop consensus - i think hiphop's still got a(n increasingly vague) sense of itself as a community, with locatable figureheads and 'causes' and points of agreement and such (el-p'll still freestyle over timbaland beats), less splintered than "rock" (good charlotte might give props to blink 182, but there's the understanding that grandaddy and linkin park are working at projects so different that the one needn't talk to/about the other)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 17 November 2003 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah thats kind of what i was getting at

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"Good Charlotte is the best pop-punk band today and the most successful
Linkin Park is the best rap-metal band today and the most successful -except possibly for Limp Bizkit, who are also pretty damn successful"

"Being the "best pop-punk" or "best rap-metal" band is like being the most polite child molester."

Being polite, well groomed and generally presentable would probably be really useful attributes for a child molester as it would assist him / her to convince parents /guardians / employers etc. that (s)he was a nice, normal, responsible, non-threatening person whom it was perfectly safe to leave children with; thus permitting him / her access to children that (s)he would then be in a position to molest.

I'm not at all convinced that Good Charlotte, Linkin Park or Limp Bizkit actually have any subversive agenda whatseover - in fact they seem to me to bear more resemblance (figuratlvely) to children who've dressed up as what they imagine the archetypal child molestor looks like, so that they can scare their little friends at a halloween fancy dress party.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 17 November 2003 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

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