What Does ILM Want Out of Female Writers?

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Okay, so let me get this straight. You can't write about music if you are young. That makes you suspicious jailbait who must be sleeping with the editor. If you are suspicious jailbait, you can't take on serious issues like race (like the latest hateful thread about Amy Phillips). If you are suspicious jailbait, it's okay for you to have an editor's position at a magazine like SPIN, even if you can barely put a sentence together, as long as you post pictures of pretty dark-haired girls on your blog: www.ultragrrrl.com

And if you are over-30, you don't exist. Check the masthead of almost any big rock mag or the lack of female voters in Pazz and Jop.

I used to be a nice person who use my real name and e-mail address to post to this list. Look what you've done to me ILM!

― Sour Cup of Cunt, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Mom, what did I tell you about coming here?

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I want to be able to read whatever's written without being able to tell the sex of the author (same with guy writers).

Note: this applies to critical music writing only.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait we're not allowed to critique Amy Philips' stance on the White Stripes but you can accuse Ultragrrrl of not being able to put a sentence together and credit her editorial position to her being "suspicious jailbait"? What do you want from ILM?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Again, I apologize for the hatemongering misogyny that is obviously inherent in the act of mocking of an awful writer writing stupid things.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Check the masthead of almost any big rock mag or the lack of female voters in Pazz and Jop.

It is formally proven that Pazz & Jop is the alkahest of rock criticism.

The alkahest was the hypothetical universal solvent sought by alchemists -- those fake-o Paracelsus-era scientists always looking for magic tricks, the kind that would transform lead, or any variety of shit, really, into gold.

Is your rock critic demographic put upon in some way? Call for or invoke the alkahest of Pazz & Jop! Are you too young? Cite the alkahest! Or you too old? The same!! Are you too little of anything or too much of something? Ring for the alkahest! Do you have a bone to pick with Robert Christgau or some other niche of
rock critics you're aggrieved at? Drink deeply of the alkahest!

Are you too ugly, too fat, too white, to tonedeaf, too record collecty, too insular, too intellectual, too stupid, too of one sex or another, too overlooked, too praised, too much a part-timer, too much a professional hack? Crikey, use the alkahest! It won't fix any of this but others will pay attention for a couple minutes.

― George Smith, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

YOU. GOT. SERVED.

― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

(I sense that the climate is not appropriate for a "deep soul kisses" joke. As you were.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:32 (twenty-one years ago)

>>And if you are over-30, you don't exist. Check the masthead of almost any big rock mag or the lack of female voters in Pazz and Jop.<

I don't understand this part at all. How old is Sia Michel again? How old is Ann Powers? How old is Carol Cooper? How old is Elena Oumano? Are you saying more younger women than older women vote in Pazz and Jop? Are you saying fewer women vote now than in the past??? Are you saying women are more likely to quit after they're 30 than men are? Maybe they are, maybe they're not, but where is your evidence of it? Don't lots of writers of both genders tend to get tired as they get older? If more women get out of the game, maybe they're just smarter!

― alpha motherfucker, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I get a lot out of female writers thank you very much. Female writers on ILM, female writers in the Voice, and magazines and books and all over the place. They make my life much richer. The good ones anyway. And if there aren't more female editors at rock mags, there are a lot at other kinds of mags. To be honest though, why would anyone male or female want to be an editor at most music mags out there? Yeesh, i wouldn't wish that upon anybody. Free papers and newspapers however are filled with female editors and some of them are even halfway decent.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

writers of both genders tend to get tired as they get older?

Yes, it's a law of physics. By the time writers are 100-110, it's guaranteed they're wholly stiff and desiccated. If they tried to write, their fingers would flake off.

― George Smith, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Great name, by the way.

― Antmusic78 (Antmusic78), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The fact that there are many male writers far dumber and more inept than Amy Phillips, many of whom have posted on hateful ILM threads about her, yet oddly none of them have inspired threads anywhere near as hateful, is worth considering though. I'm not arguing with that.

― alpha motherfucker, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

And George's sarcastic answer to my last post makes sense, too. There are as many stupid young rock critics as stupid old ones. Maybe more. And there are plenty of really good old ones. The ones who should get of the game, as often as not, probably shouldn't have entered in the first place. So "tired" probably wasn't the right word.

― alpha motherfucker, Friday, 5 March 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

goes with a big bowl of shut the fuck up!

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

name names

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

(starting with yours)

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The issues in feminism re: writing are the same w/racism in that we canNOT spend our time bitching about what we can or can't do 'cause the Man is keeping us down. Ann Powers and Kathleen Wilson @ the Stranger in Seattle are great rock writers who have perservered, not because they're jailbait, but because they're great writers who have the stomach for the business and an all-consuming love of music that transcends issues of gender. I quit writing about music 'cause it seems to have gotten progressively worse over the years, not because I couldn't find an editor who thought I was hot to give me a job. So the point is that you should get out there and write if you want to and you think you're good. Otherwise the terrorists are winning.

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

dates.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Donna Brown OTMFMx2. marry me...please?

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Donna Brown needs to start writing about music again.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

sweet Felonious Drunk, I would be committing bigamy!

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

should we move to utah?

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

if'n they have polyandry there :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:05 (twenty-one years ago)

the music has gotten worse or the state o criticism?

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

A bit of both, really.

― maypang (maypang), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

it's not legal, but they tend to overlook it. is your husband hot enough to make me turn bi?

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

in a time when Outkast finally shows us what hip hop can do I'll be damned if anyone's going to stand there and tell me music is any worse!

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Name's Jimmy Donohue. I'm a 35-year-old gay man, magazine junkie, and avid Mr. Wong fan (that's where the name is from). I'm not a writer, never have been, just friends with lots of 'em. I know lots of female writers (but not Amy Phillips), all of varying ages, abilities, zip codes, and states of employment who are all frustrated for similar reasons, and I don't hear it as much from my male friends. These are just casual observations from a mere interloper.

Deep soul kisses for all!

― Sour Cup of Cunt, Friday, 5 March 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

music gets worse and the state of criticism follows. Hence spurious "scenes" are created (I know NME started this, but it does no good for other zines to follow along). The vicious cycle is perpetuated.

Now, much in the way that Gloria Steinem alienated her fanbase by marrying Christian Bale's dad, I will now go stalk Steve Mack of That Petrol Emotion, who appears to live in my neighborhood :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

and Rod Stewart has shown us what kind of power and beauty old jazz standards and convey!

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

can convey

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you calling people sex offenders, Gear? Stop that!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

it's not legal, but they tend to overlook it. is your husband hot enough to make me turn bi?

if you like boys to look like John Travolta but with Neil Young sideburns, bring it on :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I want a list of Cex offenders, those who put Cex on the P&J

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

damn. i tend to go for waify boys who like makeup. sideburns are a bit too masculine for me. think he'd be willing to give you up every other night?

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

you guys cut a deal :)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

This female writer thread is getting too steamy for me. I better go read some gloria steinem.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

this is turning into an Adrian Lyne film

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Break out the soft focus gauze!

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Felonious will be felled by a snow globe within days. have you learned nothing from the mistakes made by Olivier Martinez?

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

good writing!

― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

have you learned nothing of the meaningless of life without love, however fleeting it may be? **cue groans**

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I totally just undermined my position

I said "position", haha

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

not only that, but your position is under(_)mine(d)
ok, maybe that's stretching it

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

you said "stretching"

okay, bye

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

fin

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 5 March 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Bingo. I don't know about none of them (cf. P-fork hating/baiting), but it's definitely true Amy Phillips has gotten a lot more shit than a lot of other writers who are no better than she is, and in plenty of cases are worse. Personally, I've read some things I liked by her, some I liked less -- which makes her like an awful lot of other critics. The vituperation she brings forth from some quarters is puzzling.

― spittle (spittle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

She gets under people's skin, defies orthodoxies, says what she's not supposed to say, turns tables, makes her voice heard, makes people think and talk and start arguments. She does exactly what a critic is supposed do, in other words. And exactly what lots of the people complaining about her are incapable of doing. Maybe they're jealous? Nah, couldn't be...

― beta fatherucker, Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Envy among music writers?

― spittle (spittle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

which means everyone is jealous of PItchfork too!

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

"you're just ENVIOUS!" playa-hata accusations? Christ, new strawmen pls k thx

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I am jealous of Ann Coulter for the same reasons "beta" listed above.

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

selzer otm

― Dr. Annabel Lies (Michael Kelly), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, I have no real opinions on the subject(other then the above joke) not really having read all that much, but I think Amy get's a lot of crap for that one Sonic Youth article. I remember one mailing list I was on going ape-shit over it, you know the one, about Sonic Youth not being like the good-old-days of Washing Machine. Then bitter record dorks like me all started whining, huh? I gave up on Sonic Youth after Goo! (no, after Daydream Nation. Or maybe after Sister? Evol? Bad Moon Rising? Did you give up on Sonic Youth after Ann Demarinas left the band? That's hardcore.)

But I'm not the biggest fan of Spin these days, and don't really see the use of Ultragrrl's column.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 6 March 2004 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Amy Phillips sounds like a moron. If she became a man and changed her name to Amos Phillips and still wrote such an opportunistic, half-assed political attack on the White Stripes he would still be a moron.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I want to be able to read whatever's written without being able to tell the sex of the author (same with guy writers)

whatevs. "gender neutral writing" as a standard is a crock of shit. when people tell me they want to see gender neutral writing they forget to take into account that masculinity often passes itself off as neutrality.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

No, but really, it was all downhill after Daydream Nation. hee hee.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah too much music criticism is all about the "male gaze", as it's called in film theory (haha I guess I did remember something, thx college)

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Amy Phillips sounds like a moron.

Well, why don't you read her yourself and find out? Please cite the relevant moronic passages. Personally, I think that's one of the better things I've read about the new Courtney album. But I may be a moron too.

― spittle (spittle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i am changing my writing name to amos philips because it is great

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway, di and cozen otm: the goal is NOT gender neutral writing, but GOOD writing, whether it's being written by man, woman, tranny, or parts inbetween.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

In other words, Amy Phillips is good because she does exactly what she's not supposed to do...and Amy Phillips is good because she does exactly what she's supposed to do. There may be an unresolved contradiction in this.

I get suspicious when people applaud provocation because it "makes people think." Obviously it can do this, but obviously it can also polarize and rigidify biases.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

and i love donna, but after living in seattle for two years i can categorically state that NO ONE writing for the stranger, male or female, is a "good" writer. (and, check the archives, i was saying this before it became a conflict of interest.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

good thing I didn't get that job there, then

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"Sperm's got vitamin C in that shit yo"

― LC, Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

they may be good stylists, i have no idea. but i gave up even trying when i read two articles in one issue that trotted out the "7 year cycle"/"new cobain" war horse.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

(both women, btw)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 6 March 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

you obviously didn't read my wonderful piece on Beck in the stranger, strongo. actually, it wasn't that good. It did prompt one of my first ILM threads though, "If Beck Were A Horse".

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 6 March 2004 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

see: If Beck were a horse...

and its follow-up: It's official! Beck is a Shetland pony!

so the stranger is good for something. maybe.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 6 March 2004 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I always prefer those smaller alt-weeklies myself. Don't know why. I still read everything in NY Press, whereas I skip 95% of the Voice. =/

― Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 6 March 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)

The Stranger and Seattle Weekly are similarly sized, page-countwise, if that's what you're referring to.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Saturday, 6 March 2004 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

If you are suspicious jailbait, it's okay for you to have an editor's position at a magazine like SPIN, even if you can barely put a sentence together, as long as you post pictures of pretty dark-haired girls on your blog: www.ultragrrrl.com

see, i don't even read any music criticism outside of ilm. and i'm mostly here to look at the picture threads anyway.

carry on.

― brian badword (badwords), Saturday, 6 March 2004 05:17 (twenty-one years ago)

erotic ilm fan fiction

― asfdzxc (asfdzxc), Saturday, 6 March 2004 05:24 (twenty-one years ago)

the world is not ready for Miccio slash

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 6 March 2004 05:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Cozen is right.

Sonic Youth are rubbish.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 6 March 2004 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

i think you are capable of better. the quasi-authoritative one liner without context does you a disservice, it is not appealing to appear ill-informed, or incapable of backing up statements. i think it would be unfortunate to descend to the caricature level of a one-line dismissal generator, especially if said post relates only tangentially to the subject matter, and betrays a lack of engagement with the wider question.

― gareth (gareth), Saturday, 6 March 2004 11:20 (twenty-one years ago)

-- spittle (ptu...), March 6th, 2004.

I really enjoyed reading that!

― mei (mei), Saturday, 6 March 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

CRIPS & BLUDDZ EQUALS PEACE UNYTEhttp://www.jazztimes.com/reviews/concert_reviews/grphx/leroyjenkins.jpg . . .

― ddasd, Wednesday, 7 December 2005 03:33 (twenty years ago)

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