Shout-outs, swipes, namechecks and borrowed verses: Hip-hop's cultural memory and rock's apparent lack thereof

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It's like this: someone around here recently defended (or whatever, I forget the context...probably ass-fucking) Lloyd Banks' lyrical l33tness by citing "cooler than the other side of your pillow" as evidence, completely unaware of the fact that he bit this from someone else (I forget who). Although, "bit" isn't fair; Lloyd Banks probably assumed that much of his audience would get the reference and give him and each other mental high-fives for being so fucking learn-ed in the Way. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

My question, however, is this: why is the namecheck/shout-out/whatever so prevalent in hip-hop (and jazz, too...) and not rock? Or rather, why does hip-hop encourage and applaud the (re-)citation of obscure (and not so obscure) lyrics/choruses/etc. while rock avoids it? I mean, the only rock song I can think of off-hand (read: 30sec of thought, here) is Built to Spill's "You Were Right." I'm sure there's more (what are they!).

But still: why? Is it even important? Am I totally wrong? How many beers can I pound before someone says the R-word? What's wrong with this horse and why doesn't it move when I hit it with this stick?

Full disclosure: I haven't heard the Lloyd Banks song/lyric in question. I really like hip-hop, but have only recently begun to realize that it's something I would have gone apeshit for as a kid (I grew up in rural MN=no rap). Why? Because I collected comics like some of y'all collect rappers (and all the attendant minutiae). I love the casual display of deep and useless knowledge.

Anyway. Discuss.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

My guess is that it has something to do with the reason “the church” is so important to r&b: it's implicitly important to the music’s community to maintain a connection to history and roots.

― mottdeterre (mottdeterre), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:06 (twenty-one years ago)

True (w/r/t the church...maybe), but I'm not sure what the "it" is, here. The cultural memory? I guess my question is: does "rock" (broadly defined) do the same thing? If so, how is this expressed (ie - borrowing riffs, basslines)? If not, why not?

Like, what is the rock equivalent of:
"Niggas still sleep like I'm Jay-Z in the video for Hawaiian Sophie"
"Come out crushin' shit for fun like Co. Flow"

And that's just from one song. I mean, why doesn't Blink-182 make sly jokes and shoutouts to Green Day or something?

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

(and why am I drinking Leinie's alone at my parent's house posting on message boards at midnight on a Saturday? Huh? Living in the country blows.)

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude, rock does do those things. All the time! ever heard "The Seeker" by The Who? "You Better You Bet" by The Who? "Yer Blues" by The Beatles? "Hey Hey My My (Into the Black)" by Neil Young? "Borrowed Tune" by Neil Young? "Smoke on the Water" by Deep Purple? "Tunic" by Sonic Youth? "Rocket" by Def Leppard? "Hats off to Roy Harper" by Led Zeppelin? "Gimme Indie Rock" by Sebadoh? "R.O.C.K. in the USA" by John Cougar Mellencamp? "Letter to ZZ Top" by U.S. Maple? "R.A.M.O.N.E.S." by Motorhead? "Jimi" by Terry Brooks and Strange??

(Stuart Scott from ESPN is the guy that popularized "cool as the other side of the pillow", btw)

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Booyashaka.

Alright. That's what I'm talking about.

However: would you agree that hip-hop does it more? Or am I just seeing something that isn't there?

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:36 (twenty-one years ago)

(oooh, I can't believe I forgot one of the best examples: "Song for Bob Dylan" by David Bowie)

oh yeah, I'd definitely agree that it's more prevalent in hip-hop.

I think one thing is that 'cover versions' don't really exist in hip-hop -- there is no real reason for a rapper to just re-recite someone else's rhymes in toto; so instead you get smaller quotings and allusions and so forth by one rapper to another's more famous lines. And in rock, doing a cover version of another groups tune (especially if it's somewhat obscure) is sort of tantamount to a 'shout-out'. Off the top of my head: take Rancid's cover of the Didjits "Killboy Powerhead" or Sonic Youth's cover of the Untouchables' "Nic Fit": those gestures are really as much about the covering bands saying "these are great songs" as "these are great BANDS"

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:48 (twenty-one years ago)

oh wait, haha, it was The Offspring not Rancid that covered the Didjits tune. Whatever, I don't really like either of those bands. But it was cool of The Offspring to do that (and it made Rik Didjit a ton of dough)

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Sunday, 21 November 2004 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

OTM w/r/t rock and roll covers.

You're right: hip-hop covers are not only rare but are by definition totally whack. Whereas I'm always interested to hear what a band covers; it's like a resume or something.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 07:01 (twenty-one years ago)

It's interesting to think about, gibo, even though you're totally overstating your case. Rock bands make careers out of stealing from prior critically-approved acts--The Rapture lifts lines straight from PiL, for example. A difference maybe between hip hop and rock w/r/t the quality of their purloining is the greater importance of the rock press in identifying which bands from the past are goldmines and which dead ends, whereas in hip hop the MCs and producers seem to function with greater autonomy from media authority.

― harmony money, Sunday, 21 November 2004 07:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I know very little about hip hop, but have traded records with a couple of producers and that idea seems to make sense.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Sunday, 21 November 2004 07:16 (twenty-one years ago)

To clarify your point money (for my own benefit): rock bands borrow and lift only from those that have been sanctioned by the Canon and rap gets to sample all and sundry?

Also, w/r/t overstating my case: well, yeah. Gotta start somewhere.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 07:24 (twenty-one years ago)

oooh, also, I had been only thinking of 'shout-out' type things but rock also has its fair share of dis records: "Sweet Home Alabama" by Lynyrd Skynyrd and "Range Life" by Pavement come immediately to mind...

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Sunday, 21 November 2004 07:31 (twenty-one years ago)

There's more than just verbal shoutouts.. I remember there was this one Fountains of Wayne song where the closing guitar solo is totally the piano outro from Layla, and Patti Smith and the Happy Mondays are famous for blatant ripoff melodies.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Sunday, 21 November 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

"The other side of the pillow" isn't so much of a reference as it is a cliche, at this point.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Sunday, 21 November 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I was prolly the one who made the reference, and I can't remember if I knew or not whether it was a bitten line, but it didn't MATTER, bcuz my point was more the way he delivers a line like that, so nonchalantly.

Anyway, the way hiphop is referential reminds me of how referential jazz is - jazz artists are always playing licks to remind you of other pop songs, cliches, or other artists.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 21 November 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

parallel ILE thread

― don't blame me, i voted for buford pusser (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 21 November 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

It's interesting that all the songs Stormy cites are tributes/state of the nation type songs about Rock & Roll, pretty much. I guess Hip-Hop's paying tribute/adressing itself in almost every song comes into play here: most Rock bands would probably get accused of being jokey and novelty-ish if they quoted and metafied as regularly as rappers do. Also, of course, with Hip-Hop it's quite common for a song to adress a thousand diferent issues, while Rock narratives mostly focus on one specific situation - thus, there's a bigger chance of a shout-out standing out and grating.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 21 November 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

(I may not have expressed myself very well in that last post - I'm still in the process of waking up, y'see - but in a nutshell: if you ask someone what (x) Rock song is about you're much more likely to get a simple answer than if you do the same with (x) Hip-Hop song. Not that there aren't lots of exceptions on both sides, of course.)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 21 November 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely the fragmentary nature of hip hop freestyling comes into play here: rappers store up good rhymes and lines in bite size amounts that are then worked into full tracks, so there's an interchangability there which encourages swiping. Plus there's an acknowledgment that the words and the music may have been created independently of each other.

Rock tends to present lyrics as being dependent on eachother and the music. So cover versions are much more common because they respect these perceived dependencies.

I always liked how Tori Amos opens "In The Springtime of his Voodoo" with "Standin' on the corner in Winslow, Arizona, and I'm quite sure I'm in the wrong song." Freakin' genius.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 21 November 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

"The other side of the pillow" isn't so much of a reference as it is a cliche, at this point.
-- My name is Kenny (bogususe...), November 21st, 2004.
...
Anyway, the way hiphop is referential reminds me of how referential jazz is - jazz artists are always playing licks to remind you of other pop songs, cliches, or other artists.

-- djdee2005 (ddrak...), November 21st, 2004.

I think this is sort of illustrates the difference I see between rap/rock. That lyric is a cliche by this point, but not in a bad way; dropping it is sort of like saying "I speak hip-hop." (as lame as that sounds).

The jazz thing is OTM.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

completely unaware of the fact that he bit this from someone else (I forget who).

...just read the ILE thread: I totally forgot the context of where I came across the Lloyd Banks discussion, djdee, I hope I didn't offend..?

Also: xx-post (Finney) is bang-on with the fragmentary nature of both hh and jazz. I being told to learn famous sax solos note for note so that when it came to improvise you could just stitch together something new from the scraps you'd collected.

...I never did this. Practicing was for dorks, obv.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Lots of lyrical allusions to other songs in Steve Miller's "The Joker"

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I remember being... etc.

I just woke up.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

B. Bumble and the Stingers, Mott the Hoople, Ray Charles Singers
Lonnie Mack and twangin' Eddy, here's my ring we're goin' steady
Take it easy, take me higher, liar liar, house on fire
Locomotion, Poco, Passion, Deeper Purple, Satisfaction
Baby baby gotta gotta gimme gimme gettin' hotter
Sammy's cookin', Lesley Gore and Ritchie Valens, end of story
Mahavishnu, fujiyama, kama-sutra, rama-lama
Richard Perry, Spector, Barry, Rogers-Hart, Nilsson, Harry
Shimmy shimmy ko-ko bop and Fats is back and Finger Poppin'

Life is a rock but the radio rolled me
Gotta turn it up louder, so my DJ told me
Life is a rock but the radio rolled me
At the end of my rainbow lies a golden oldie

FM, AM, hits are clickin' while the clock is tock-a-tickin'
Friends and Romans, salutations, Brenda and the Tabulations
Carly Simon, I behold her, Rolling Stones and centerfoldin'
Johnny Cash and Johnny Rivers, can't stop now, I got the shivers
Mungo Jerry, Peter Peter Paul and Paul and Mary Mary
Dr. John the nightly tripper, Doris Day and Jack the Ripper
Gotta go Sir, gotta swelter, Leon Russell, Gimme Shelter
Miracles in smokey places, slide guitars and Fender basses
Mushroom omelet, Bonnie Bramlett, Wilson Pickett, stop and kick it

Life is a rock but the radio rolled me
Life is a rock but the radio . . .

Arthur Janov's primal screamin', Hawkins, Jay and Dale and Ronnie
Kukla, Fran and Norma Okla Denver, John and Osmond, Donny
JJ Cale and ZZ Top and LL Bean and De De Dinah
David Bowie, Steely Dan and sing me prouder, CC Rider
Edgar Winter, Joanie Sommers, Osmond Brothers, Johnny Thunders
Eric Clapton, pedal wah-wah, Stephen Foster, do-dah do-dah
Good Vibrations, Help Me Rhonda, Surfer Girl and Little Honda
Tighter, tighter, honey, honey, sugar, sugar, yummy, yummy
CBS and Warner Brothers, RCA and all the others

Life is a rock but the radio rolled me
Gotta turn it up louder, so my DJ told me
Life is a rock but the radio rolled me
At the end of my rainbow lies a golden oldie

Listen (remember) they're playing our song

Rock it, sock it, Alan Freed me, Murray Kaufman, try to leave me
Fish, and Swim, and Boston Monkey, Make it bad and play it funky

(Wanna take you higher!)

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Just like jack the ripper, just like mojo hand,
Just like billy sunday, in a shotgun ragtime band,
Just like new york city, just like jerico,
Pace the halls and climb the walls and get out when they blow.

Did you say your name was ramblin rose?
Ramble on baby, settle down easy
Ramble on rose.

Just like jack and jill, mama told the jailer
One hear up, and one cool down, leave nothin’ for the tailor.
Just like jack and jill, papa told the jailer
One go up, and one go down, do yourself a favor.

Did you say your name was ramblin rose?
Ramble on baby, settle down easy
Ramble on rose.

I’m gonna to sing you a hundred verses in ragtime,
I know this song it ain’t never gonna end.
I’m gonna march you up and down along the county line,
Take you to the leader of a band.

Just like crazy otto, just like wolfman jack,
Sittin plush with a royal flush, aces back to back.
Just like mary shelly, just like frankenstein,
Clank your chains and count your change and try to walk the line.

Did you say your name was ramblin rose?
Ramble on baby, settle down easy
Ramble on rose.

I’m gonna to sing you a hundred verses in ragtime,
I know this song it ain’t never gonna end.
I’m gonna march you up and down along the county line,
Take you to the leader of a band.

Good-bye mama and papa
Good-bye jack and jill
The grass ain’t greener
The wine ain’t sweeter
Either side of the hill.

Did you say your name was ramblin rose?
Ramble on baby, settle down easy
Ramble on rose.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

They come from the cities
And they come from the smaller towns
Beat up cars with guitars and drummers
Goin crack boom bam

CHORUS:
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A.
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A.
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A., Yeah, Yeah!
Rockin' in the U.S.A.

Said goodbye to their families
Said goodbye to their friends
With pipe dreams in their heads
And very little money in their hands
Some are black and some are white
Ain't to proud to sleep on the floor tonight
With the blind faith of Jesus you know that they just might, be
Rockin' in the U.S.A.
Hey!

Voices from nowhere
And voices from the larger towns
Filled our head full of dreams
Turned the world upside down

There was Frankie Lyman-Bobby Fuller-Mitch Ryder
(They were Rockin')
Jackie Wilson-Shangra-las-Young Rascals
(They were Rockin')
Spotlight on Martha Reeves
Let's don't forget James Brown
Rockin' in the U.S.A.
Rockin' in the U.S.A.
Hey!

CHORUS:
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A.
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A.
R.O.C.K. in the U.S.A., Yeah, Yeah!
Rockin' in the U.S.A.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm in love with catholics
i'm in love with your blue cars
i'm in love with the words that scream
we are so stupid, we all dream
i'm in love with frank sinatra
fly me to the moon
i'm in love with fools like you
i'm in love with doing the twist
i'm in love with the bodies that scream
they fall so far, they fall so far
i'm in love with the supremes
oh baby love
i'm in love with sophia loren
i'm in love with bridget bardot
i'm in love with the whole dumb scene
i'm so in love, you know what i mean
i'm in love with anthea and donna
all that shit that goes
uptown top ranking
i'm in love with the factory
i'm in love with the bbc
i'm in love with your tv
they're so in love with you and me
i'm in love with a nuclear bomb it falls
i'm in love with shopping city dreams
i'm in love with real men
they go through the
air for oxygen
love is just a car like you
that turns so blue and turns so blue
no blue cars will run my world
no playboys will black my word
i would walk a million smiles
for one of your miles bob
stop stop stop stop stop stop stop
we love you we love you we love you
we love you we love you we love you
we love you

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

There should be more early Psych Furs discussion. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(Actually to tie it in "Wedding Song" is a 1980 hip-hop/rock song, now that I think about it.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 21 November 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate the stones and I hate blues eddie cochran and blue suede shoes I
hate the king I hate chuck berry I hate hooker I hate leadbelly aallrightt I
hate funk and I hate soul rhythm and blooze and rock 'n' roll I hate riffs
and guitar licks I hate coke and I hate spliffs aaallrightttl it's ok!! I
hate otis and marvin gaye early dylan aretha -heey ?! spector's wall knock
it down jerry lee run him out of town aaaalllrighttt - it's ok!-!!! there
ain't a lot I can do about it though I'm force-fed your so called heroes
don't be told who to like it's your choice it's your right to choose who to
listen to it's rock rock 'n' roll you will find me in the middle of the road

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

In the '70s there was long hair there were left-over hippies everywhere
And I should know 'cause I was there in the '70s they had prayer mats there
were stringy beards and floppy hats and men looked Iike jesus in crushed
velvet flares in the '70s there were osmonds there were lots of osmonds there
were lots of little osmonds everywhere everywhere everywhere in the 70's
there were skinheads there were bovver boys and brummie reds and greasers,
grebos judge and natty dread in the 70's there were chopper bikes oxford bags
and kung fu fights trojan sounds lee perry dubin in the 70's there were
osmonds there were lots of osmonds there were lots of little osmonds everywhere
everywhere everywhere in the 70's there were lots of bombs they blew
my home town up and lots of people were killed on the news the relatives
cried everyone knew someone who'd died they'll never forget it for the rest
of their lives and all around the people say we hate the I-R-A and we
asked for justice but it never come in the 70's there were osmonds there were
lots of osmonds there were lots of little osmonds everywhere everywhere everywhere
in the 70's there was a hughie green lieutenant pigeon hit the scene
paper lace and candlewick green mouldy old dough chicory tip gilbert o and
hurricane smith billy don't be a hero hey david rock in the 70's lesley
whittle died the black panther went inside and jeremy thorpe oh he
resigned and at school the girls would bring a thousand volts of holt and sing
hey there lonely girl impossible love in the 70's there were osmonds there
were lots of osmonds there were lots of little osmonds everywhere everywhere
everywhere in the 70's the rollers came best retired from the game and
cassidy quit oh what a shame! In the 70's I was just a kid still knew
what it was all about I soaked it in now it's all dripping out in the 70's
there were osmonds there were lots of osmonds there were lots of little
osmonds everywhere everywhere everywhere osmonds oh now there were lots of
papers roses yeah there were lots of crazy horses everywhere everywhere
everywhere. 3 button waistbands · skinners · side pockets · star jumpers · nelson
house · orange hand · bomber jackets · budgie bird · do the dump (maaan) · timothy davey · peter gordeno · the persuaders · crombies · cartoon belts · barry blue · pete duel · jaytex shirts · brutus shirts · bell records · eddie holman · falmers · chinn & chapman · can the can · uk records · crown court · top rank · tank tops · hot pants · k-tel · blackfoot sue · tony
bowker · shard end kinds · gangsters · baileys (bullring) · clodagh rogers · clifford t ward · donny caps · tina charles · hot butter · tony christie · mungo jerry · stephanie de sykes · spencer banks · shut that door · pam ayers · dave boy green · fankie abbott · fenn st gang · spaghetti junction · queenie's castle · beryl's lot · eddie howel · bobby crush · stan free
· jeff astle · jonathan davis · star soccer · jack green · rudolph walker · sally chapman · park hall · arden hall · black wax · tessa wyatt · romeo challenger · rupie edwards · karen bridgewater · lesley skinner · arthur wild · our kid · freddie slade · dandy livingstone

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Musically speaking, rock hasn't changed in at least, what, twenty years. Given this high degree of continuity rockers may find it less important to cite precedent or establish their link to a tradition.

― Derek Krissoff (Derek), Sunday, 21 November 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Postmodern Collagisism of Hip Hop versus Modernism of Rock: An Outline

Thesis ~
1) Hip hop producers sample, so there you go.
2) Hip hop arguably is more verbal, or at least lyrics are more privileged. Not to say that they're not important in rock. But the MCs' flow and rhyming skills are so much the centerpiece in so many songs that unlike in rock songs, where the drummer might cop a rhythm, or the guitarist steal a lick, pretty much all the referencing besides sampling is down to very noticeable and articulable verbal allusions and theft.

― harmony money, Sunday, 21 November 2004 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

betcha can't say "articulable" 5 times fast.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah I wasn't offended! Don't worry about it.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Sunday, 21 November 2004 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Oi Scott, what were those last two songs you quoted?

― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Sunday, 21 November 2004 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

1949 Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray,
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe Dimaggio,
1950 Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television,
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe,
1951 Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom,
Brando, The King and I and The Catcher in the Rye
1952 Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new Queen,
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana good-bye.

CHORUS
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
Well we didn't light it,
But we tried to fight it.

1953 Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist bloc,
1954 Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Tosconini, Dacron,
Dien Bien Phu falls, Rock Around the Clock,
1955 Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team,
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland,
1956 Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Khrushchev,
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez.

CHORUS
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
Well we didn't light it,
But we tried to fight it.

1957 Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac,
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, Bridge on the River Kwai,
1958 Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball,
Starkweather homicide, Children of Thalidomide,
1959 Buddy Holly, Ben Hur, Space Monkey, Mafia,
Hula Hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no go,
1960 U-2, Syngman Rhee, Payola, and Kennedy,
Chubby Checker, Psycho, Belgians in the Congo.

CHORUS
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
Well we didn't light it,
But we tried to fight it.

1961 Hemingway, Eichmann, Stranger in a Strange Land,
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs Invasion,
1962 Lawrence of Arabia, British Beatlemania,
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson,
1963 Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex,
JFK blown away, What else do I have to say?

CHORUS
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
Well we didn't light it,
But we tried to fight it.

1964 to 1989 Birth control, Ho Chi-Minh, Richard Nixon back again,
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, Punk Rock,
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, Terror on the airlines
Ayatollahs in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan,
Wheel of Fortune, Sally Ride, Heavy metal, Suicide,
Foreign debts, Homeless Vets, AIDS, Crack, Bernie Goetz,
Hypodermics on the shore, China's Under Martial Law,
Rock and Roller Cola Wars, I can't take it any more!

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
But when we are gone
It will still burn on and on and on and on...

CHORUS

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

They are both from Denim's Back In Denim album, Nate.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Musically speaking, rock hasn't changed in at least, what, twenty years.

bull.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Nu-metal, yo!

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

We got all kinds of wiggety-wik scratches and shit now.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"articulable" 5 times fast

― harmony money, Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

he hired gay and handicapped officers
he was concerned about overpopulation
if Hitler was alive today
he'd listen to the Cure, the Smiths, and Depeche Mode

― dave q (listerine), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

The Minutemen and fIREHOSE did this all the time. There's even a picture of Husker Du on the cover of if'n.

― David Beckhouse (David Beckhouse), Sunday, 21 November 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

You'll dance to anything [x4]

Oh, baby, look at you
Don't you look like Siouxsie Sioux
How long'd it take to get that way
What a terrible waste of energy
You wear black clothes say you're poetic
The sad truth is you're just pathetic
Get into the groove just get out of my way
I came here to drink not to get laid
So why don't you just go on home
'Cause if you want to moan you'll have to moan alone

You'll dance to anything [x2]

Don't try to tell me that you're an intellectual
Cause you're just another boring bisexual
"I met Andy Warhol at a really chic party"
Blow it out your hairdo 'cause you work at Hardees
80 pounds of make up on your art school skin
80 points of I.Q. located within

Know what you are? You're a bunch of ...
Artfags! Artfags! Artfags! Artfags!
Choke on this you dance-a-teria types!

You'll dance to anything by The Communards
You'll dance to anything by Book of Love
You'll dance to anything by The Smiths
You'll dance to anything by Depeche Commode
You'll dance to anything by Public Image Limited
You'll dance to anything by Naked Truth
You'll dance to anything by any bunch of stupid Europeans who come over here
with their big hairdos intent on taking our money instead of giving your
cash, where it belongs, to a decent American artist like myself!

You'll dance to anything!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
The kids are coming up from behind.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids from France and from London.
But I was there.

I was there in 1968.
I was there at the first Can show in Cologne.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids whose footsteps I hear when they get on the decks.
I'm losing my edge to the Internet seekers who can tell me every member of every good group from 1962 to 1978.
I'm losing my edge.

To all the kids in Tokyo and Berlin.
I'm losing my edge to the art-school Brooklynites in little jackets and borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered eighties.

But I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge, but I was there.
I was there.
But I was there.

I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
I can hear the footsteps every night on the decks.
But I was there.
I was there in 1974 at the first Suicide practices in a loft in New York City.
I was working on the organ sounds with much patience.
I was there when Captain Beefheart started up his first band.
I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a dime."
I was there.
I was the first guy playing Daft Punk to the rock kids.
I played it at CBGB's.
Everybody thought I was crazy.
We all know.
I was there.
I was there.
I've never been wrong.

I used to work in the record store.
I had everything before anyone.
I was there in the Paradise Garage DJ booth with Larry Levan.
I was there in Jamaica during the great sound clashes.
I woke up naked on the beach in Ibiza in 1988.

But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
And they're actually really, really nice.

I'm losing my edge.

I heard you have a compilation of every good song ever done by anybody. Every great song by the Beach Boys. All the underground hits. All the Modern Lovers tracks. I heard you have a vinyl of every Niagra record on German import. I heard that you have a white label of every seminal Detroit techno hit - 1985, '86, '87. I heard that you have a CD compilation of every good '60s cut and another box set from the '70s.

I hear you're buying a synthesizer and an arpeggiator and are throwing your computer out the window because you want to make something real. You want to make a Yaz record.

I hear that you and your band have sold your guitars and bought turntables.
I hear that you and your band have sold your turntables and bought guitars.

I hear everybody that you know is more relevant than everybody that I know.

But have you seen my records? This Heat, Pere Ubu, Outsiders, Nation of Ulysses, Mars, The Trojans, The Black Dice, Todd Terry, the Germs, Section 25, Althea and Donna, Sexual Harrassment, a-ha, Pere Ubu, Dorothy Ashby, PIL, the Fania All-Stars, the Bar-Kays, the Human League, the Normal, Lou Reed, Scott Walker, Monks, Niagra,

Joy Division, Lower 48, the Association, Sun Ra,
Scientists, Royal Trux, 10cc,

Eric B. and Rakim, Index, Basic Channel, Soulsonic Force ("just hit me"!), Juan Atkins, David Axelrod, Electric Prunes, Gil! Scott! Heron!, the Slits, Faust, Mantronix, Pharaoh Sanders and the Fire Engines, the Swans, the Soft Cell, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics.

You don't know what you really want. (x15)

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

side question:
t or f:
one ofhip hop's biggest breaks w/ rock was by dropping the tradition of covering other artists' songs

yes there were hip hop versions of rock songs (eg walk this way) but a hip hop artist covering another hip hop artist's song was almost taboo until relatively recently - last ten years or so anyway, (snoop's lodi dodi was the first i can think of, though i'm sure i'm wrong) ... and yeah, people do it more and more - i think the roots popularized the live medley of classics... but anyway... really seems to me like it's a really different thing than in rock

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Sunday, 21 November 2004 22:49 (twenty-one years ago)

they don't need the whooooooole song, fritz. they just need billy squier's big beat! (or slayer's big riffs. even though i don't think they work that well on that lil'jon song. and i really wanted them too. )

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah sure but that's hugely different than everyone ever doing louie louie, you know what i mean (note to self: fat boys did louie louie)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Sunday, 21 November 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

beats are recycled pretty frequently in rap, but yeah, it ain't the same thing. they aren't always as recognizable as a rock cover version. little samples from rap songs placed in other rap songs are. but again, that's not really the same thing. it is a tribute of sorts, though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, that works for me. rhymes/beats/sounds from other rap songs being constantly re-used in other rap songs is sorta similiar to a rock cover version. it's a tradition thing anyway. which is what covers are about.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, rock's cultural memory and history is really one of shout-outs, swipes, namechecks, and borrowed verses. which is why it has so much in common with rap.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 21 November 2004 23:43 (twenty-one years ago)

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