Taking Sides: Stone Roses Vs. Happy Mondays - Again, who has Aged Better?

However,

"She Bangs the Drums", "Elephant Stone", "Waterfall", "I Am the Resurrection" > everything on "Pills N Thrills"

Both band's material has aged well. The Roses debut, like most of the Smiths records, was recorded fairly simply and both have dated well as a result.

Oddly, I think the Mondays "Squirrel and G-Man" has aged the least out of all their albums. It's one funky, Krautrock monster groove after another. I would love to hear more bands making records like that today.

Question though... How did they do in the US? I read a bit about it at the time: not very well is my understanding, but it's hard to gauge quite what the US's exposure to them was.

In my opinion, here in the UK, these bands' impact was much greater than that of the grunge bands in the year or two to follow, although I did go from school to university at that time and the references kind of changed, so it's difficult for me to make even that comparison.

Well, no one got to see the Stone Roses, because they demanded on playing venues they could never sell out (i.e. Madison Square Garden).

I don't think anyone really "got" the Happy Mondays (or at least not in the same manner the band was embraces in the UK).

the stone roses, i'm not especially interested in.

I thought that they did sell out the Garden (and the LA Forum) in 1992 but backed out of doing the gigs because they were arrogant pricks.

When the Roses started, I was underwhelmed, couldn't see what the fuss was about. They sounded to me like Primal Scream's first album, i.e. generic late 80s Byrdsalike indie pop. Later I came to realise how good Stone Roses was, and Fool's Gold is great too. But they were never much more than a very good generic band who happened to appear at the right time with some very good songs. Their sonic inventiveness compared to the Mondays is nothing. And Shaun Ryder is one of the great lyricists. Ian Brown, erm, isn't.

The Second Coming is utter cack, but the kind of cack that appealed to the legions of music haters who were educated at the Noel Gallagher School of History, which reads "Oasis - Roses - Weller - Beatles" and manages to make all of them seem way less interesting than they were capable of being.

Pills n Thrills has probably aged worst of any album by either group, but I put that down to a production and vibe that's very much of its time. The Mondays were and still are infinitely better.

This is rubbish. Will say why tomorrow.

.

Good, that gives me a whole day to think of a really concise and witty way to say you're wrong.

I don't think anyone really "got" the Happy Mondays (or at least not in the same manner the band was embraces in the UK).

I think to be fair to the Roses, it was Gareth Evans who insisted on all this stuff. Although, assuming it was, then he was possibly responsible for a lot of their stunts that made them great. I take it what we're talking about is that largely they appealed to anglophiles and people who would have liked that sort of stuff anyway, rather than get anywhere near the mainstream; would that be true to say?

I can fully understand the Mondays not taking off, but I kind of feel that had the Roses not just disappeared then they might have done really well in the US.

Just play The Second Coming.

Unless you think that he will hear it for what it is for the first time. Might make for a cool montage sequence...

That said, Breaking into Heaven is one of the best things they did and still sounds terrific, as does Ten Storey Love Song.

How Do You Sleep is a great song and would sound terrific if John Squire hadn't spent the previous few years learning how to be a much worse guitarist. The guitar solo in that song sounded just like something from a Nambarrie Teabags advert that was on the telly at the time.

back then, i genuinely and utterly believed that the mondays were the superior band.

now, however, i am absolutely and totally convinced that the mondays were the better band. no point explaining my reasons: noodle vague said it all perfectly above.

that said, mrs fiendish saw him on telly this time last week, when bez was going into celebrity big brother, and said he looked ok. and bez is in top nick.

Hath not a Stone Rose eyes? Hath not a Stone Rose hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Happy Monday is? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?

oh: it's on the iTunes music store. must ... not ... buy ... music ... until pay day ... gaaah.

most OTM thing i've read on ilm in ages.

(x-post) including the post above

Happy Mondays had more chart success ("Step On" squeaked into the Top 60 and their other singles did well in clubs and on modern rock stations) but are less remembered Stateside. This is evidenced by my mother having no fucking clue who they were until she heard me listening to "Hallelujah", and then she recognised that song and all the other singles too and has subsequently been borrowing my copy of Pills 'n' Thrills for several weeks.

Before I'd read any of the replies, my thought was: the Roses may have been the better BAND, but the Mondays have just AGED better. They just had that little extra bonus idiosyncrasy going for them. Most Stone Roses songs stopped being all that interesting after a certain voluminous number of plays. That said, it doesn't surprise me that there are plenty of people in this world that don't get the Mondays, particularly in the U.S. I say to those people: don't allow your notions of them to set in stone just yet until you've heard the first album ('Squirrel & G-man...', produced by John Cale). Better yet, try the first 12" "Delightful" (which is just a simple, mighty fine pop record without any of their later funky clumsiness and actually doesn't sound THAT different from early Roses, come to think of it).

Speaking as somewhat of a Martin Hannett fanatic, though, I always felt that out of all the things he produced (and I haven't heard ALL of them but most of them), "Bummed" was where the Hannett magic just went all wrong. Words like "murky" and "thick" are understatements. I don't know if it was just the wrong band for him to get mixed up with, or if he was just far too addicted to drugs at that point, or if it had anything to do with the material itself, but "Bummed" remains a blight on the Mondays career for me. "Hallelujah" remains a favourite, though, and I admit I haven't heard anything past Pills n Thrills. Never actually went that far.

"Fools Gold" was monumental. To the point you wondered how it could be possible no one had DONE it before.

As far as Second Coming goes, I find myself in the middle. They could have done worse, no doubt about it. But they also could have done better and it does irk me when people who expound upon it seem to fail to remember just what an absolutely devastating disappointment it was for many, many fans and critics, including myself. Not that it didn't have some fabulous high points. Love it to death if you must, but let's not pretend history was any different than it was, eh? And no one asked Squire to be Jimmy Page, either. But now I see I have tipped the balance, and I only do so knowing Dr. C's testimonial is coming. The truth is I refuse to take a stand on Second Coming either way.

I take it what we're talking about is that largely they appealed to anglophiles and people who would have liked that sort of stuff anyway, rather than get anywhere near the mainstream; would that be true to say?

THIS IS SO TRAGICALLY, RIDICULOUSLY OTM AND INTIMATELY FAMILIAR A SCENARIO FOR ME TO REACT WITH ANYTHING BUT WILD HYSTERICAL ON-THE-FLOOR LAUGHTER UNTIL ALL MY ATOMS ABANDON MY LOGICAL FACULTIES AND DISINTEGRATE INTO SHEER MADNESS.

I can fully understand the Mondays not taking off, but I kind of feel that had the Roses not just disappeared then they might have done really well in the US.

I live in the US and I actually agree with this. They were on the verge, it was there, but they didn't stick it out long enough. I also felt a lightbulb go on in my brain when Barry mentioned them refusing to do gigs - I seem to remember something like that, without being able to recall details. Funny what being an 'NME whore' in the mid-90's from this side of the water will do to you.

In closing, I think Ian Moraine has got to have the coolest mother on EARTH (good Christ, she knows all this and Scritti Politti too?!?), I envy him this, and above all thanks to Alex for starting one mother of a thread.

What I was referring to yesterday as 'rubbish' was the notion that somehow Second Coming was consistent with Stone Roses place in some kind of tradrock hierarchy. I could maybe agree with that if we were talking about the debut, but surely not The Second Coming. I mean there's a lot more to it than Love Spreads - get past the Squire riffery of maybe 3 tracks (LS, Dribing South, Good Times) and a lot of really unexpected stuff going on. Breaking Into Heaven, ambient intro and Can-like vibe, for example. I bet the beanie-hatted brethren weren't expecting that. The furious machine-riffing of Begging You, Daybreak's lopsided funk.

**Speaking as somewhat of a Martin Hannett fanatic, though, I always felt that out of all the things he produced (and I haven't heard ALL of them but most of them), "Bummed" was where the Hannett magic just went all wrong**

I agree. I think the fault may lay partially with my ears, but I find Bummed hard going.

What about Hannett's Stone Roses productions job - Garage Flower? This is where I lose what remaining shreds of credibility remain, but I really like about half of this! There are some tragic vocals, some appalling over-drumming by Reni, yet some mighty songs (Heart On The Stave, All I Want) and Hannett does a fine job on the guitar. His drum sound takes some getting used to, though.

**Fools Gold" was monumental. To the point you wondered how it could be possible no one had DONE it before**

Can? Halleluwah? About half of Ege Bamyasi?

I remember not being entirely enthused about the `Monday's Bummed (though i do like "Wrote for Luck" and, of course, "Hallelujah"). I'm most intrigued by the first album (which I've never heard, but the descriptions here are promising). I can't decide whether my affection for Pills'n'Thrills... has more to do with nostalgia for its era (the very early 90's was a fine time for me) or because i'm genuinely into it. I pulled out the Black Grape album as well, but that doesn't fare nearly as well (though i do like "Shake Well Before Opening").

i never liked the stone roses much so the answer has to be the mondays. their value as a singles band is underestimated - what about "lazyitis" with karl denver and "24 hour party people" (which wasn't on the album and sounds like the teardrop explodes locked in the phoenix nights toilet)? also "bummed" thanks to hannett's production is bernard manning sings the cocteau twins. awesome.

Can? Halleluwah? About half of Ege Bamyasi?

No, I'm just not going to go there. Fools Gold was a whole little universe unto itself. I recall being in Manchester and walking by a club when it was playing. It was like time had stopped, just for a split second.

As for the Roses material you speak of, I recall it fondly. Haven't indulged in it for awhile, but actually not very long ago compared to a lot of other things. Won't hear of any complaints on Hannett's production with the Roses.

Thank you for your informative and interesting post, Alex. Yes, like the devil, Second Coming has written its name on my forehead as an album I'm destined somewhere down the line to reexperience in full. I've known this for awhile, but it just hasn't happened yet. I do recall "Begging You" with particular fondness, so there.

Brilliant description! That is exactly what it sounds like.

The Can track in question is "I'm So Green", I think Mani admitted as much. Of course Can got it from James Brown in the first place.

The Young MC's "Know How" is I think the closest, and Ian Brown was namechecking this in 1989. However, I agree, Foolsgold in its own world for so many reasons. A great classic double A-side too; "What the world is waiting for" is a belter too, and great timing for a song with a name like that.

Someone made the point earlier that the Roses came along at the right time, and part of it may have just been fate, but so many things did work for them between summer 89 and summer 90. Pity it didn't really come together like that again.

I wish I understood this 4/4 business.

Nowadays I prefer Stone Roses to Happy Mondays.

They are often lumped together because they were supposedly mates and made it big at more or less the same time.

I like it more than most people actually; although the chorus is a bit weak. I like the guitar playing a lot. Something's Burning is terrific.

And while it's true the Mondays/Roses/"Madchester" thing only hit with Anglophile kids in the US, there were a lot of them coming off the tail-end of the Cure/New Order/Echo/JAMC/Cocteaus heyday. In any given suburban high school you could have upwards of 100 or more kids listening to this stuff via mix tapes etc., which is still not much, but it had an effect on the landscape, definitely in Boston/eastern Massachusetts. Boston record shops were wallpapered with Rave On and Roses 6-footers for a while there.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Neil_Hawes/theory.htm

In honour of this thread I've decided to go get Second Coming again today. Not ashamed to admit I sold it a long time ago, but I did hear some of the better tracks in a club a few years back and they sounded great.

My response of "So? And?" left him schlumping out of my office.

The Roses were great but I never felt that passionate about them.

A friend of mine went to see them recently and Ryder was that fucked he couldn't get his own jacket off. He had a special 'Jacket remover' in his road crew. Said friend also said that the gig was full of nazis.

Common to both of these well over rated bands, was the large wanker contingent in their fan base.

Okay, so now that this trip to the CD shop has resulted in me resuming my Can adventures (there are actually still a few albums of theirs I need and I knew I'd have to get back to them eventually, which didn't bother me because it's kindof like prolonging potential orgasms or something), I decided to go back and listen to "I'm So Green" to see if I could spot the connection between that and Fools Gold, as Dadaismus claimed. And sure enough, I can't see it except in the most remote sense - time signature perhaps? Ege Bamyasi was my first Can experience and it's still my favourite of theirs, so if there was a direct connection between anything on that and Fools Gold, I think I would probably have recognized it by now.

I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative here, it's just that it would honestly make me very happy if someone could please point to some piece of music - by Can or anyone else - that represents the place where Mani got that bass riff from for Fools Gold. I'm not saying such a piece of music doesn't exist. I'm saying if it does, I would honestly like to know about it. Please and thanks.

A Can bassline which WAS ripped off was the bassline for ACR's Knife Slits Water, which (I think) is from Aspectacle. It was probably Rosko Gee, not Czukay, who played it.

I can't wait for the next set of Can SACD reissues.

Whoops! xpost even before I knew you'd just posted I wrote this, Keith.

The Young MC's from the New York I think... Big hit with "Bust a Move" in 1989 in the US.

Can SACD reissues.

What does SACD mean?

Bimble... Yes, the Ruthless Rap Assassins were from Madchester I believe.

I bought Ege Bamyasi one time on a whim, having read so much about it as THE Can album to have, etc. I took a listen and the whole thing went right by me. I really couldn't see much of anything in it. But the caveat is, I KEPT THE CD. Then one day when I was grieving Jeff Buckley, I put on Ege Bamyasi one more time, again, on a whim. And the first thing I noticed was how unbelievably CALMING they were. Somewhere within that swirl of activity was a kernel of stillness and peace of mind. You could dance to some of it, even, but always throughout every movement there was such a refreshing calm, peace. There was no room for anxiety in it. I listened to it recently and tried to figure out what gave me that impression exactly and the only thing I could come up with was the drummer, Jaki. He was like a machine you could count on. You knew that whatever was going to happen with Damo and the rest, whatever intricate paintings they would paint, that Jaki would hit in perfect time, over and over and over just the same way every time and you could always count on his beat coming along just when you expected it, like a metronome. And I found that peaceful. There's probably more to this peace aspect of their music - Damo probably plays a role, but that's as much as I've managed to figure out and articulate so far for sure.

Was it MC Tunes? He was widely derided at the time for being a bit crap, but 808 State produced his first (only?) album and even if he wasn't the greatest rapper I thought it was a masterpiece of Roses-sampling grubby Manc Hop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/noodle_vague/c864668amn9.jpg