Pazz and Jop 2004: If Only Women Voted

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With commentary and additional statistics.

(Overall rank in parentheses)

1 (1) Kanye West, The College Dropout
2 (4) Franz Ferdinand, Franz Ferdinand
3 (3) Loretta Lynn, Van Lear Rose
4 (5) Green Day, American Idiot
5 (6) Arcade Fire, Funeral
6 (12) TV on the Radio, Desperate Youths and Blood-Thirsty Babes
7 (10) Danger Mouse, The Grey Album
8 (27) Killers, Hot Fuss
9 (7) Streets, A Grand Don't Come For Free
10 (35) Usher, Confessions
11 (20) Joanna Newsom, The Milk-Eyed Mender
12 (2) Brian Wilson, Smile
12 (9) Modest Mouse, Good News for People Who Love Bad News
14 (8) U2, How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb
15 (71) Thermals, Fuckin A
16 (33) PJ Harvey, Uh Huh Her
16 (14) Rilo Kiley, More Adventurous
18 (22) Elliott Smith, From a Basement on a Hill
19 (26) Scissor Sisters, Scissor Sisters
20 (18) Bjork, Medulla
21 (17) Fiery Furnaces, Blueberry Boat
21 (68) Tegan and Sara, So Jealous
23 (13) Wilco, A Ghost is Born
24 (74) Le Tigre, This Island
25 (30) Libertines, The Libertines
26 (56) Jill Scott, Beautifully Human: Words and Sounds Vol. 2
26 (23) M.I.A./Diplo, Piracy Funds Terrorism
26 (36) Morrissey, You Are the Quarry
29 (24) Dizzee Rascal, Showtime
30 (47) Futureheads, The Futureheads
30 (19) Interpol, Antics
30 (25) Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Abbatoir Blues/The Lyre of Orpheus
33 (53) Hives, Tyrannosaurus Hives
34 (83) Gwen Stefani, Love.Angel.Music.Baby
35 (42) Air, Talkie Walkie
35 (55) De La Soul, The Grind Date
37 (14) Nellie McKay, Get Away From Me
38 (28) Devendra Banhart, Rejoicing in the Hands
39 (43) Walkmen, Bows and Arrows
40 (205) Garden State (soundtrack)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm most impressed by the Usher jump. Yeah!

― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, it's sort of amazing that Usher beat out Brian Wilson!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know about "amazing," more like "awesome".

― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, it's both :-)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Brian Wilson more than I like Usher.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

you are a boy.

― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I fear the idea that Mark needs reminders of his gender.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

10 (35) Usher, Confessions
12 (2) Brian Wilson, Smile
16 (33) PJ Harvey, Uh Huh Her
23 (13) Wilco, A Ghost is Born
34 (83) Gwen Stefani, Love.Angel.Music.Baby

HAHA girls rule boys drool proved yet again.

(let's just ignore that Killers jump)

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it a better top 40? More interesting?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Pretty massive and totally unsurprising jumps up for Garden State sdtk, Tegan and Sara, and Le Tigre.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, I'm not sure if this is a better or more interesting list. I might just be imagining things, but it seems more mainstream and rockcentric than the regular list.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

FWIW, I actually like Brian Wilson more than Usher, too, but it's fun to see the tables turn so dramatically.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone want to speculate as to why support for Nellie McKay is overwhelmingly male?

I'm not really into Usher or Brian Wilson (or SMiLE, anyway), but I suppose that I would rather side with danceable black pop than cozy up with the "let's vote for the album from the 60s cos it's elligable" bloc.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Brian Wilson and Usher about the same (love them both)...

― adam.r.l. (nordicskilla), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

As for comparing this list to the overall one, they share 39 albums.

The women's list additionally has Thermals, Tegan & Sara, Le Tigre, Jill Scott, Futureheads, Hives, Gwen Stefani, Air, De La Soul, Walkmen, and Garden State.

Whereas the overall list has Drive-By Truckers, Madvillain, Animal Collective, Tom Waits, Hold Steady, Youssou N'Dour, Sonic Youth, Black Keys, Big & Rich, and AC Newman.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I would rather side with danceable black pop than cozy up with the "let's vote for the album from the 60s cos it's elligable" bloc

yet they bumped up danger mouse, which is at least partly a beatles vote.

i'm most interested in the significant demotion that interpol gets from the women. maybe they're mad at carlos d for giving them herpes!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Carlos D has herpes?

― adam.r.l. (nordicskilla), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Please do share your theories about Nellie McKay, though. I thought maybe that dudes were more forgiving of her grating qualities because she's young and cute -- but I don't see why this wouldn't also apply to Joanna Newsom.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

(Who actually did better among women.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Women hate Nellie McKay for stealing Anthony Miccio's heart.

― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Nellie McKay's music isn't very emotional and is rich with irony and jokes, whereas Joanna Newsom seems designed to accompany fits of sobbing. Maybe that's got something to do with it, jaymc.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone want to speculate as to why support for Nellie McKay is overwhelmingly male?

Yeah, interesting. One big difference between Nellie and say Tegan and Sara or Gdn St is the satire quotient. /speculation

xpost

― W i l l (common_person), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Misery folk = big in the 04
Fake showtunes = definitely not!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

There are some interesting assumptions being made here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Nellie McKay's music isn't very emotional and is rich with irony and jokes, whereas Joanna Newsom seems designed to accompany fits of sobbing.

Women be cryin'.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I don't want to imply that women don't like satire or something, although I guess I am. I just wanted to list the biggest difference between those albums that I could think of off the top of my head, which probably means it isn't a good explanation at all!

― W i l l (common_person), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Unfortunately, trying to explain this list at all requires making at least a few base generalizations.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

the people who say rock centric should be shot. by themselves.

― abc, Friday, 18 February 2005 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't mean to say that all women hate satire or anything like that, just that there is a huge base of female listeners/critics who seem to gravitate towards sad slow music rather than ironic showtunes.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

(But some of the changes are fairly dramatic, and I am curious as to why that's so.) (xpost to myself)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

heh, girls think the Thermals guy is hot.

― swayne, Friday, 18 February 2005 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Is Nellie McKay 'male-identified'? And why the Gwen jump?

How many people make up this voting pool?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I had no idea who the Thermals were before doing this. The bassist is a woman, though.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Gabbneb, it's 124 out of 793.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Nellie McKay is like a masturbatory fantasy for NPR types.

Gwen's record is very very very girly. It totally makes sense to me that the love for that album would be disproportiately female.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I had no idea who the Thermals were before doing this. The bassist is a woman, though.

Look up the lead-singer, Hutch Harris, girls love him. He's earnest and stuff.

― swayne, Friday, 18 February 2005 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

The Nellie thing surprises me, I always thought her humour was very feminine.

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's talk about the rise of the Killers and Franz Ferdinand, who I mention in the link up top, were only four points away from knocking off Kanye.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

"who as I mention"

Also add a couple exclamations to that sentence, too!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Ultragrrrl is a very powerful tastemaker!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

(Half-kidding, by the way)

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Have any woman posted to this thread yet? (I don't think so)

― W i l l (common_person), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Look up the lead-singer, Hutch Harris, girls love him. He's earnest and stuff.

Also, interestingly, both (positive) Thermals reviews on Pitchfork were written by women (Julianne Shepherd and Amanda Petrusich). And neither of them voted for Fuckin A -- which I mention just to show that their support among female critics runs even deeper than this poll indicates.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I was just having the same thought, Will.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I was hoping some woman would come onto this thread and be all, "Y'all don't know shit."

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

One big factor may be that women critics make more of an effort to hear female artists (I know one female P&J voter had a radio show dedicated to women in rock), which would provide a concrete reason for the female acts moving up rather than just "because they're female".

xpost -- It's still early

― W i l l (common_person), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I'm not a critic and didn't vote, so...

― Leon the Fatboy (Ex Leon), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Have you heard some of these albums, though? Speculate!

― W i l l (common_person), Friday, 18 February 2005 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

random observations:

sort of surprised Loretta Lynn held steady -- Lynn and McKay were the two women I thought would actually drop.

great to see Jill Scott so much higher -- finally heard that record for the first time this week and I really like it.

Even though I like a lot of the records that rose and am more than happy to see U2/Brian Wilson tumble, not sure I like this list better since three records I actually voted for fell off (Sonic Youth, Big & Rich, Hold Steady).

What was the impact on Gretchen Wilson?

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 167 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

he's figuring out who middle-aged people voted for on P'n'J

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

with the left-handers asterisked.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

(xpost) NBA dude is David, right?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

It should be Howard.

― Leon the Fatboy (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah, david stern! i get all my jewdudes confused! what was the jew vote in this year's pazz & jop?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio i'd've thought you'd've offered an eloquent defense of careerism by now! i know you got it in you! i mean you're clearly watching your back and keeping your options open on this thread (maybe she'll have 3401 numbers! keep hope alive!)

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

are you two using the same mirror?

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

i bought you a drink friday just to be nice, miccio, not to "get work" from you. (like you could give me any.)

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i know you bought me a drink and that was very nice of you. but you're baiting people now and god knows why.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

stence miccio's pretty big with stylus aka "last year's next pitchfork", i'd be careful, don't burn bridges (official slogan of ilm god bless america and my 401k)

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not baitin', i'm debatin'! don't be hatin'! or you'll be skatin'! on thin ice! eat some rice!

put it to a dancehall beat and pretend it's from some developing nation and all you critics will be masturbatin'!

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

wait - is it stylus miccio? is that what that site's called? it may be another, in any case stence be careful. think about your future. you never know when you might end up needing to pitch a story.

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.madkats.com/Drag/King/SF_Drag_King_2001/images/sfdk30.jpg

― Leon the Fatboy (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd rather pitch a tent/but our land isn't free/so i'll work my youth away/in the place of a machine/on friday i'll get paid

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

in any case he writes for some website i think. so don't. try it.

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

right

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Let me get this straight: ten years ago a girl shows interest and dedication for a career path, through work and luck gets opportunities in said industry, and now, 10 years later, somebody has some massive problem with that?

Jesus, it's almost enough to make me stop reading this thread, and I was even interested!

Seriously, back to the substance - some good points have been made. Namely, that different demographics support different artists in interesting ways, and furthermore, that only 15% of the voters are female. 15%. 15% (approx;).

I'm thinking maybe that figure would be even less if we female teenage critics-in-the-making paid attention to people like hstencil, who seems to direct a disproportionate amout of rage towards one woman who had a little ambition.

― Abby (abby mcdonald), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

if i was ragin', you'd know it.

i don't like people with too much (not just some) ambition, it hasn't a thing to do with jessica being a "woman" or not.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

and it's not a "massive problem," just again an observation - ie. "i first heard of her when..." hell i even read her blog a lot even tho it's even more insular taste-wise (and pat-yourself-on-the-back-y) than ilm!

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

This is so funny to me. Figured I'd dip in, ease you out of yr tangle a bit.

Newsweek found me through an article Terri Sutton at City Pages, who wrote about my fanzine, which in 1992, was on issue number 3. It was about 70% music, 30% riot girl. The writer, Farai Chideya, found that through some LexusNexus (sp?) search perhaps. Oh, and the giant billboard I had up in Times Square with my braces-smile looming large that read "pick me!" and had my parents home phone number.

I had no "career" interest at that age, because I just wanted to work at the record store i worked at for the rest of my life. I started a fanzine because no one in town would let me write for them because I was 14. So I made a fanzine, which was pretty ridonkuliss, but it got me writing work at City Pages. So, blame Will Hermes for giving me the foothold, dog.

I started doing publicity because all my cameras got stolen on my 18th birthday, while I was getting a star tattoed on the back of my neck, shitfaced drunk, somewhere in North Hollywood. I had just graduated from high school, was making a little bit of $ doing writing stuff (fanzines, city pages, grand royal), but ultimately, was trying to pursue photography. I could not afford to replace my cameras, and so I had to fall back on doing pr, which I had learned how to do from summer internships at Amphetamine Reptile. My parents are both editors, ( yes, my mom still has the same job, no need to update your files), I had worked at magazines a bit through high school, and thusly, held a pretty solid understanding of PR, solid enough to be able to get a job doing it.

And whomever called me a self promoting hack, not to steal yr thunder, but you are correct!

Yours very truly,

JH in MN

― Jessica Hopper, Age 28, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

awesome, thanks for the clarification! no idea you interned for hazelmeyer, that's pretty awesome.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 01:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Dear ILM Doods,

I don't like showtunes (unless Hedwig counts) or The Killers. I do cry, but not to Joanna Newsom. Saying that girls vote based on looks is pretty hypocritical, considering how many dudes wet themselves over former P& J fave Liz Phair over a decade ago. ("She said, blowjobs, heh, heh"), and countless others. And besides, I agree with Jessica: Interpol and The Killers are fugly.

Say what you want, but the number of women posting to ILM dwindles by the day. Look at the similar thread from a year ago: scant posts from Maura Johnston, no Daphne Carr. Go back even further. Where's people like Ally Kearny and Carey Price (who I don't know at all, I just admire their internet chutzpah)?

As it is, I have very little internet time. I'm one of the few people in the world who doesn't have a job where I can waste time on the internet. When I come to a place like ILM and constantly see posts and threads that are demeaning to my female peers, it makes me not want to take the time to read and post.

Angry bitter dudes, do us all a favor, and get some girlfriends, or at least talk to a girl, once a day**

**Not directed towards Jay Mc, who started what could have been an interesting thread, or any of the guys who actually do have a clue (Ned, Scott Seward, Ant'ny, Matt P., Don A.)

The rest of you can fucking blow me...

― Sara Sherr, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 02:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm iming with ally right now about boobs and tonight's frontline with the cursing soldiers. carey hung out last friday, as did ally, and maura, with a bunch of ilm geek dudes.

tho yeah, some of the ilm geek dudes should really talk with girls, and not just to or at them.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

like who, for example?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 04:50 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, y'know, I'm not gonna name names. and don't worry matos, obviously you're not one of 'em, you tiger.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 05:02 (twenty-one years ago)

why does everyone hate? We should all hold hands and sing.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 05:05 (twenty-one years ago)

well, tigerism doesn't really factor in here (and I doubt I'm one anyway, though now that I'm general manager of KFC* who knows?). I just smell a strawman (not like there aren't already a ton of 'em on this thread already).

* inside joke, sorry everyone, you had to be there

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 05:06 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.mousemultimedia.com/ricardo/absolut/groupies.jpg

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

that's an awful lot of straw, if it's a strawman.

sterling, drink the brown liquors, more anti-oxidants. at least that's what my bro says, and he's a medical doctor. he owns a mansion and a yacht.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 05:46 (twenty-one years ago)

*peers blearily at thread* Oh dear. Anyway, thanks to Sara for the cool mention. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 06:09 (twenty-one years ago)

you know, first time I read this thread title I thought it was wishful thinking.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 06:13 (twenty-one years ago)

haha i don't have a clue, rub it in ned! to know me is to loathe me.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 06:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I was talking about the thread as a whole, not you in particular. Excuse me, am tired, must sleep.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 06:31 (twenty-one years ago)

oh i am not offended ya big lug.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 06:52 (twenty-one years ago)

maura's on ilbb

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 08:28 (twenty-one years ago)

um...so, i've been on vacation all week and haven't really kept up with this thread, and have no real intention to read all of it, but wow...a lot of it strikes me as people arguing with arguments that nobody ever made in the first place. first off: to aknowledge that snazzy danceable new wave bands and female artists did better among female voters than among male voters (which the results above, which i find undeniably revealing if hardly conclusive, pretty clearly suggest they did, with certain interesting exceptions) is not to suggest that women voted for any reason other than to award what they felt was the best music. in fact, the phenomenon might even suggest that men are unduly prejudiced *against* female singers and danceable new wave (the latter of which, i dunno, they might stupidly consider shallow or something.) and i'm not sure where anybody suggested otherwise (and besides, appealing images are part of pop music, right? i voted for lots of women on my ballot who i thought made the best music out there this year, and most of them got either no other support or maybe just another stray vote usually from some stray guy, and most of the women i voted for had fairly snazzy images, too, *and* they were more danceable than franz ferdinand, or at least my feet thought they were. {i'm weird, i don't think franz f are new wave *enough!} so anyway, who said snazzy images are a bad thing? even if men or women did vote for the killers or franz ferdinand or the donnas or big and rich strictly on the basis of their haircuts, so fucking what? but i notice more goofy conspiracy-mongering here from the people who seem to dislike the donnas and big & rich than from the people who seem to dislike the killers and franz ferdinand, which confuses me. do people really believe that anybody voted for big & rich {by far the year's best album} just to be, uh, "cool" or something? suggesting that strikes me as just as bizarre and twisted as anybody who would suggest -- not that i think anybody actually did! -- that somebody might vote for the killers because they'd make good boyfriends. on the other hand, is it possible that some male critics might be neurotically obsessed with "keeping up with what's hip this month" or "not seeming out of date"? sure it is. though if somebody is going to make that claim, i'd love them to name names. and while they're at it, they might name names of female critics who were denied a ballot because they were deemed "ineligible" for the pazz and jop poll. personally, i can't think of any -- and i run the poll. if there are qualified female critics out there who haven't been voting -- and by "qualified", i mean they review new releases on a regular basis in print or on the web, nothing more (it's hilarious how some people think there's some magic formula behind inclusion in the poll -- people say that all time, with no evidence at all to back them up), anyway, if any such female critics exist, they should contact me, and we will add them to the already ridiculously oversized database. if anything, i've been *more* dilligent about seeking out and adding women (who write for places like *venus*, say) during my tenure at the *voice* than men. (just like i've been more dilligent in seeking out and adding hip-hop and latin and country and teenpop and metal and electronic dance crtics than u2 or indie-rock critics. anybody who knows anything about my own tastes and writing would have a hard time explaining why i'd do the opposite. i wish it made more difference in the results, but you can't win them all.)

― chuck, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with Chuck here. As I've said before, we were friends when he lived in Philadelphia in the late '90s, and at that point he was more supportive of my writing than my female editors at the time. He really understood my style and encouraged my voice. And speaking of Voice, if it were not for him, I would have never been published there (thought beyond P&J comments, it's been a long time, and I'm due for a comeback at some point).

It is very easy to get on the P&J list. You just drop a line to Chuck and say, I review these records for _______publication. And I got the same idea from Christgau as well. And I would think with the internet, it makes it much easier. Would someone who is just a blogger count?

Chuck does go out of his way to find not just female voices, but those who aren't typical rock crit voices, and that is really rare and cool.

Gotta get Chuck's back on this one.....

― Sara Sherr, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

while ppl are complimenting chuck, this thread's as good a place as any to say how crazy good the set of articles on dancehall and soca (and, uh, whatever m.i.a. is) this week is. heartbreaking fantastic crazy good.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Would someone who is just a blogger count?

i think there's a few bloggers on there, yeah.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

plus blount!

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

After reading several thousand ILX threads, I've noticed the following:

(1) If someone says something interesting and intelligent, and lots of people comment on it, then the thread is about the interesting and intelligent thing that was said.

(2) If someone says something boring and stupid, and lots of people comment on it, then the thread ends up being about the boring and stupid thing that was said. Even if the comments are more intelligent than the original stupid one.

In other words, your response makes the thread. You have a choice.

(Yeah, and it's not always quite that simple, since there can be comments that are intelligent but boring, and ones that are stupid but interesting. In general, though, the stupid and the boring attract one another.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

In frank's very interesting post he raises the question: what would an interesting stupid be, and how much of the internet can be accounted for under that umbrella?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm very interestingly stupid.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

(and, uh, whatever m.i.a. is)

I think they decided that she was the "sound of london."

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I walked with M.I.A. and hse would say
Oh you poor child you ain't coming with me, no way
She found heaven on earth, she's gonna chant for your sins
But I think I'll be good company down there with all of my friends
Well I got around to thinking about what M.I.A. said to me
'Cause if london's like this then that's the place to be
It's a long long time between now and my death
And I've gotta have my fun so I've chosen what's best

Well
Here it comes
Here comes the sound
The sound of london

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Interesting but stupid: Well someone over on the "Is Rock Less Inventive..." thread claims that Tommy James & the Shondells were a jazz band.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.kubicek-bremen.de/pix_easylps/mctell_streets.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Aye, THE STREETS OF LONDON is a good example of intelligent but boring (and it's on ILM!)

― don, Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

What the PnJ results would look like if only women voted.

― etc, Tuesday, 1 March 2005 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

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