TS: Unknown Pleasures vs. Closer

Noways I play the live bootleg "Les Bains Douches," which has got some fierce renditions of UP songs, when I need my fix.

As for the studio albums, UP has the better sound and production and Closer has the better songs. I can never decide between the two.

As I said there, Closer is the better one, but I'm far more likely to play Unknown Pleasures these days.

Throw in the Grace Jones cover for good measure.

TS: "She's Lost Control" (on Substance) and "She's Lost Control" (on Unknown Pleasures)
"She's Lost Control" on Something Else!

no tracks on it appear on any of their albums, though, so I think it's equally admissable.

For songs, Closer. For sound, Unknown Pleasures.

For singles, Substance.

With your powers combined, I AM CAPTAIN PLANET!

Grace Jones, by like, four miles at least.

Nothing against the originals either, like.

i love "unknown pleasures" dearly. but it's not "closer". nothing is.

I still don't get Closer. I need to listen to it again.

As for Unknown Pleasures & Closer, I would have to go with UP and not because I like the songs on Closer any less, but because I like the production more on UP. I was introduced to most of the Closer material via the live versions on Still or the versions on The Peel Sessions and the Closer versions just pale in comparison.

Re: "She's Lost Control" - it's the 12" mix for me.

but Unknown Pleasures by a longshot. Closer often feels so sluggish to me, like it's difficult to get through for reasons other than it's more "dark" and "oppresive" qualities. Anyone feel this way?

Not Goth or anything to do with Goth, as David A explains brilliantly above. Closer beats UP narrowly because they really pushed themselves to come up with something different and new. The synths were more integral to the sound too. Only New Dawn Fades on UP approaches the wintry, ruined beauty of Isolation, Decades, Heart and Soul and Isolation. By then Curtis knew it was all up, and while it's almost too much to take, like all great albums from the edge, it's also strangely uplifting too. A masterpiece.

A couple things though: "wintry, ruined beauty" is a perfect description of Closer (new thread: describe your favourite record in three words!)

And Curtis's voice. I know that he had that tremulous baritone thing happening that became a goth staple (Pete Murphy, Andrew Eldritch) and even antecedent ( Jim Morrison), but he was also a shouter and a crooner, which was a unique combination then and has rarely been impersonated since (this last clause is open to massive refutation). It's true he crooned less when they were called Warsaw. I wonder if I hear cold as opposed to dark simply because of the album covers (one white, one black), and even the titles. The word "closer", when pronounced as if referring to something ending, sounds frosty, whereas pleasures (even the unknown kind!) are surely warm, even if they're dark. But I should shut up now. This is starting to sound a bit obsessive.

**in the beginning of warsaw he didn't sing like that. he shouted more**

But it's not surprising since they were doing a lot of punkish/stooges-ish material in Warsaw and early JD.

David A. makes a good point when he says he wonders if he hears cold as opposed to dark because of the album covers. I've always felt "Closer" as being chilly, ghostly, pristine and beautiful partly because of the sleeve artwork. (I always thought it was odd that i so closely associated the album with the feeling the artwork gave me.)

the cover of u.p. actually is pretty much in line with the music. it shows a dying star. more precisely 80 pulses of a pulsar (neutron star) which is what stays of a mass-rich star after a supernova.

Only Joy Division I listen to anymore are the live records

i know what you mean , ez. why the hell did i never see them live, that's the biggesst reproach i make myself. but somehow i was more into ecm and keith jarrett at the time. what is the best live recording? les bains douches is very powerful but the chaotic preston in a way fits them quite well as everything is falling apart...

I don't know if there is a best. I like all of them about equally. Les Bains Douches and Preston are great, as are the ULU and Factory sets on the expanded Closer and Unknown Pleasures.

I'm glad there was a lot of debate here. I was afraid ilx would go in for Unknown Pleasures for some reason. And Closer is better.

prefer closer, to me the songs and performances sound less scrappy and more solid and assured.. they sounds like giants. truly sad to think of what might have been. ayo.

Imagine if New Order had depressive Ian Curtis vocals, the possibilities are limitless...

Curtis' suicide apart, I'm quite happy with the way things turned out, to be honest.

Well it's 1969 OK all across the USA
It's another year for me and you
Another year with nothing to do

Last year I was 21 I didn't have a lot of fun
And now I'm gonna be 22 I say oh my and a boo-hoo
It's 1969 OK all across the USA
It's another year for me and you

Another year with nothing to do
Another year with nothing to do

It's 1969
1969 1969 1969 1969 baby
And it's 1969 baby
Baby
Baby
Baby

*sigh*

Unknown Pleasures is great and groundbreaking thanks to Martin Hannett. Closer is the band catching up.

Imagine if New Order had depressive Ian Curtis vocals, the possibilities are limitless.

You have heard Movement, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3w0f9NPnk

they're both perfect imo.

Unknown Pleasures is great and groundbreaking thanks to Martin Hannett. Closer is the band catching up.

one listen to their their live show around the release of UP shows that it would have sounded amazing no matter who produced it. those songs burned intensely, live. i like hannett's production on UP, but the performers and songwriters deserve the credit for UP's god status, not hannett.

sanpaku he was being sarcastic i'm pretty sure

Well we know what George Michael preferred

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUrwmPnL-ec

I like 'Closer' a lot more. I think I actually heard the 'Still' versions of all the 'Closer' tracks first and that had a big impact on the songs I preferred by Joy Division initially.

truly sad to think of what might have been.

would Ian Curtis still be a fascist & misogynist?

You're a real dumbass if you believe Ian Curtis was a fascist or had any sympathies for fascism #smdh

Sorry but c'mon man

both these albums are overrated tbh

hate to break it to y'all

Overrated or not, the answer is still Closer iirc

I was just thinking about how impressive it is these are not overrated considering their memelike countercultural reputations

Overrated? Give me a second side that is better than Closer's second side.

ian comes off as a difficult and troubled person (perhaps understandable given severe illness + unexpected fame + being young and stupid like anyone is at his age) in deborah curtis's book, but not really either "fascist" or "misogynist," espec given that there were actual nazi sympathizers in UK punk/postpunk music at that time and JD was notably not among them

It's not 1981 anymore people, the Joy Div = Fascists/Nazi's thing has been done to death. Show me concluding evidence or the smoking gun of how Joy Div/Ian Curtis were fascists or nazi sympathizers or misogynists, or gtfo. It so, so played.

He did vote Tory though, the twat.

There is that :(

i was probably a little loose with the word fascist but he was absolutely a misogynist. i like unknown pleasures a lot btw.

overrated.. theres that word again

truly sad to think of what might have been.
would Ian Curtis still be a fascist & misogynist?

― crüt, Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:21 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh for crying out loud, does this place have badges for posts like these or something? I'M SORRY

Freudenabteilung were brothels at concentration camps. They wore flap pocketed shirts similar to those of the Blackshirts or Brownshirts. The cover of their first 7":

https://e.snmc.io/lk/l/l/71919d0fc3a1f040e13e7fa4e32c8a47/6331068.jpg

JD were no more fascist than they were radio astronomers (UK's cover). But toying with fascist aesthetics is rather shaky ground, ethically speaking.

UK Unknown Pleasure's cover

i'm curious if the "misogynist" label comes from what we know abt ian curtis in real life (which i won't argue w/ since it's been years since i read touching from a distance and prob have forgotten a lot of details) or from his lyrics, which mostly strike me as opaque/obscure enough that it's hard to identify any particular POV in them

and yeah the "joy division" name itself is pretty gross

Which is why

Bernard Sumner 4ever.

I agree with marcos that both albums are overrated, but I'd go with UP, as about half of it is great. Atrocity Exhibition/Isolation makes for a very arresting opening, but otherwise I just don't get Closer.

(xp) Bernard Albrecht surely?

That's not his name either.

I still don't quite understand, would the albums be better if they were adequately rated? How is it interesting information in any way? Taste Jenga woo-hoo!!

i'm curious if the "misogynist" label comes from what we know abt ian curtis in real life (which i won't argue w/ since it's been years since i read touching from a distance and prob have forgotten a lot of details) or from his lyrics, which mostly strike me as opaque/obscure enough that it's hard to identify any particular POV in them

I'm basing it on what I know about his real life

"otherwise I just don't get Closer."

I don't get YOU

Closer

I like the Hannett production on UP, but I kinda wish there were two versions of that album. One where those songs rip like they do live.

yeah, i agree with that too. i'm guessing hannett added the effects directly onto the masters? otherwise you'd think a special deluxe "dry" version would have been released by now

they are both the best albums. no need to choose between them! and british kids in the 70s were obsessed with WWII. everyone knows that. its in all the books.

Didn't realize that the phrase "unknown pleasures" was taken from Proust until reading Proust a few years ago. Feel like there was one other thing Curtis lifted from him, but can't remember what it was.

Pretty clued in reader for his age and period and place though, I give him that.

Closer has wall-to-wall great songs on it whereas Unknown Pleasures doesn't, the production is better on the whole on Closer and the band perform better. This isn't even a competition.

can't think of any wall-to-wall great songs on unknown pleasures, i think we can all agree on that

oh wait, i think i misunderstood - you mean that closer has one good song after another while unknown pleasures has a few duds that break up the flow.

i think i might agree with closer being a more consistent album. but the heights of unknown pleasures are so overwhelmingly good that it doesn't make any sense to me to declare one unimpeachably better than the other. they're both amazing.

Closer doesn't have 'I Remember Nothing' on it, so it pretty much wins on that alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvPIvoJkmGs

Hahahaha!