Old Distortion vs New Distortion or Marshall Stack vs Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier

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one was the industry standard from about 75-99 i guess and seriously i was sick of the Angus Young tone by the time i was 12 (but not when Angus uses it) but now im totally sick of the NEW industry standard which is D or C tuned Mesa crunch. i cant decide so you guys do it for me.

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Everyone who plays a mesa sounds like everyone else who plays a mesa. Ergo: crap. There are tons of better sounding amps with wider tonal palattes for less money on the market, but yer average rocker-dude seems perfectly willing to be spoon fed by what they are told to buy for the prestige factor. I feel the same way about PRS guitars, by the way...

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:19 (twenty years ago)

but the mesa has like 1000 different settings. tubes, no tubes, etc etc etc.

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

Your 1000 different settings can come from your fingers. Mesa-Boogie rode the desire to instantly have the sound of a no-shit modern man of heavy metal into town and stayed there. Then Marshall followed them.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

I dunno about that one...Robert Fripp, Carlos Santana and John Scofield have been playing Mesas for years and I wouldn't call what they do "No-shit modern man of heavy metal" type players. Like any company, they have some amps that are really good and some that are not as good, but they are all only as good as who is plugged into the amp. They make nice gear, it is expensive, but it will last a long time and also hold its value down the line.

Seems to me that the cool amp of today is Orange, I am seeing those suckers pop up all over the place. They are also really nice and quite expensive amps.

earlnash, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

Stoner metal and Oasis put Orange back into business, mostly. I'm talking about the Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center phenom when the teenagers come in an wanna be instant man of nu-and-death metal. The Mesa is the best example for instant gratification. Or anything imitating a Mesa.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

so george you're siding with "old" distortion

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

I'd be surprised to hear a Mesa sounding as nice as a vintage Marshall or Orange. Maybe I don't know enough about them.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

Does old distortion mean non-artificial distortion?

I prefer 60s Fender Twins or Japanese copies.

gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

the triple rectifiers don't seem to have much dynamic to them, whereas on a lot of the marshall tube amps, you can get a more clean tone by playing softer/turning down a bit. i prefer the marshall tone, but i can see why a lot of the kids prefer the triple rectifiers. they do their one thing and they do it well.

6335, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

no

fender twins are good for clean sound and jazz and you can push them to be VERY loud but im talking bout HEAVY METAL STACKS

XPOSTA

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

use a Zoom 505 for that 'reverbed-out 80s finger-in-pencil-sharpener shrillness through a tiny clock-radio speaker on an AM station' tone! I've got two of them

dave q (listerine), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

i used to use a zoom 505 but i realized they really take away alot of frequencies and tone

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

they take away 'notes' sometimes too! i'd like to hear somebody cover all of 'Loveless' using only a 505

dave q (listerine), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

Jane's Addiction was the first band I noticed using Mesa Boogie back on their Nothing's Shocking album. That is a pretty cool guitar tone and doesn't sound like most metal.

Eleventy-Twelve (Eleventy-Twelve), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

so george you're siding with "old" distortion

Functionally, yeah. It's all I've ever played. Mesas are still very nice amps and can be easily made to sound old school. Mid scoop has a lot to do with the sameness of modern hacks. It often turns the guitar into the equiv of a washboard.

I had a Mesa Mk. 1 many years ago and it sounded every bit as good as a "vintage Marshall." Then I switched to Hiwatt and stayed with it although I've owned old Marshalls, too.

"Artificial" distortion? Hmmm, there isn't an artificial distortion per se. There are different ways to produce it. "Old distortion" comes from pushing the output stage of the amplifier. "New distortion" comes from pushing cascaded preamp stages or clipping a series of diodes or a combination of both. But there's all kinds. The "old distortion," for example, is often a combination of output stage distortion and fuzztone on the front end. This evolved to a more civilized form of fuzztone called the overdrive.

And for years now there has been computer emulation of distortion, old and new. And, of course, Tom Scholz put old school distortion in box -- boiling down his idealized sound of a 100-watt Marshall into a few light-emitting diodes.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Definitely old distortion as you're calling it
green-MatAmp

superultramega (superultramarinated), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

fender twins are good for clean sound and jazz and you can push them to be VERY loud but im talking bout HEAVY METAL STACKS

fender twins freq's begin to break-up (HI DERE DISTORT) around 6-7 on the master dial. most good guitar sounds that i enjoy are a product of "natural" distortion, not pedal/amp-tech mozzarella.

gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

The guitarist in my last band had a Triple Rectifier and I thought it sounded great. Their cabinets are really, really well built. I have an early 90s Mesa Subway Rocket, which is a small, very loud 15 watt amp. I love to get a bigger Mesa, probably a Mark IV with an extension cab, but that is way too much money for me, especially considering I have only played bass live in bands.

I've been filling in a cover band with these older guys that own a guitar shop and between the two of them they have a sick collection of amps. I've also been really, really impressed with the Mesa Heartbreaker and Mark II amps I have heard, they sounded as good as couple of 70s JMPs and 80s JCM800s I have heard. The Heartbreaker is a really cool amp, as you can get a Fender style clean and a cool high gain distortion in the same amp. They also both have boutique amps from Bat Cat and Burriss, which are amazing.

I've never come across anyone that has vintage Orange, only people that have gotten the newer models, which are great. I did some overdubbing a few weeks back with my friend that has one of the new two channel AD30s, and it is an awesome sounding amp.

The guys that make some decent amps and get no respect are Peavey. I like my 5150 combo and have friends that have both Triple X and Classic 50 half stacks. I think they all sound pretty good, but are not nearly as hip to have.

It's all good, if the music works.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

Greens are the same as Oranges. Old Orange rolled out the Green decades ago as a nod to Peter Green but the distinction's been muddied by their identification with stoner bands like Sleep.

Earl nailed it. The limitations of the player and the material expose
the worst in good equipment. It's a LOT easier to get good tone for a reasonable price than it was fifteen years ago. Putting the sound of a vintage Marshall or an old Santana-esque Boogie to tape was an achievement requiring patience, a lot of experience, some money and dumb luck. Now getting the same timbre to your digital track is so much easier, so much so that I am constantly astounded that people don't do more with it.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

I'll take a Vox over either.

darin (darin), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

YAH YOU GUYS FENDER AND VOX ARE FINE IF YOU'RE PLAYING GHEY GARAGE ROCK OR SOMETHING BUT THIS IS OBV ABOUT METAL GUITAR K THX

charleston charge (chaki), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Why Bon Scott was gay, and that's totally ironic

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

I have always stuck with my Roland Jazz Chorus. It's that clean that you have to do all the work to get a good tone etc. so it pushes you harder to come up with more detailed parts. I've taken a pigload of derision for using that amp over the years from the tubeheads.

A / F#m / Bm / D (Lynskey), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

I dunno. Famous amp modelled by everyone in the modelling business. Someone who'd ridicule a JC is just showing their ignorance.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

The thing with the Mesa-Boogies is that they're very versatile, but most people who use them are A) lazy, and B) lacking in any sort of imagination/ambition to sound different from the pack.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

The tube Vox AC30s are now assembled at the Marshall factory in England for Korg, which is interesting conisidering the rivalry of the two companys back in the 60s.

Dimebag Darrell and a bunch of metalhead guitarists use solid state amps. The two guitarists for Isis use Mackie solidstate PA power amps and a Mesa V-Twin tube preamp.

earlnash, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I'm down with Vox, AC30 and Fender.

I always found Marshalls and Mesas monochromatic.

Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

As far as getting that tight scooped-mids crunch, the Triple Rectifier is where its at. Really I'd love to have one of the Boogie Road King amps. Those look like the shit. Boogie makes some great power amps too.

I never could get the tone I like out of a Marshall. They have a really thin sound to my ears.

I can't afford all the expensive Boogie shit right now but I've always been able to get my tone running a Boss Metal Zone into my old 70's Ampeg V4 amp. Its really a bass amp so I get this huge low end. All you really need is a good pedal and an amp that can stay clean when you really push it.

Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

I don't see why more people haven't played their guitars through bass amps, especially what with the whole Tune Down Lower movement in full force and all.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Marshalls and Mesas sound monochromatic

Yeah, yeah, name your favorite sports car. I have an original point-to-point handwired Reeves/Joyce Hiwatt. But I played a blackface Fender Vibrolux for over a decade, too. And then there was the Marshall Super Lead and the Laney AOR-series stacks and a Rock Module rack into clean power amps. And a shitty fuzztone straight into the mixing desk.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Hiwatts are the SHIT.

Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

It's discussions like these that make me regret my resigning myself to that annoying plink plink early Talking Heads guitar tone years ago. But then I remember that, on the rare occasion I play guitar anywhere, I only have to carry a wee little 75 watt combo amp! Let your aching lower backs feast on that deathmetal nerds!

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, two Hiwatt stacks were hard on everyone's back in the Highway Kings. Mostly, it was for purposes of audience terrification.

The Scholz Rockman and the SansAmp Classic made things a lot easier in the studio.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

"I don't see why more people haven't played their guitars through bass amps, especially what with the whole Tune Down Lower movement in full force and all."

Because most modern bass amps are really twinky, pseudo-hi-fi transistor dealies that won't distort for poop. The only guitarists who's be interested in them are pedal steel guitarists, maybe. Ampeg V4s, tube Fender Bassmen, and 60s and 70s Marshall bass heads are used by way more guitarists then bass players. The original Mesa Boogie preamp is really just a hotrodded Fender Bassman chassis anyway.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

I don't see why more people haven't played their guitars through bass amps, especially what with the whole Tune Down Lower movement in full force and all.
-- nickalicious (nickaliciou...), March 23rd, 2005 12:39 PM. (nickalicious)

Slanted & Enchanted, 1992!!

gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

My Ampeg head alone weighs 80-something pounds. They made em like trucks in the 70's. Then my 5150 cab is over 100 lbs I'm sure. I'm sure most of my strength comes from all these years of lugging that shit around.

Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:52 (twenty years ago)

They made em like trucks in the 70's

That's so they could fall off the back of trucks and not require servicing. Lots of the better guitar amps were made that way. Ruggedized or built to military specs for touring purpose. Hiwatts were tough. I think a Boogie catalog used to advertise that their amp chassis were tossed across the room onto the floor and then tested before they went out the door. It was a good story and probably only close to being true. Old Acoustics were really substantial even for solid state amps.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 20:57 (twenty years ago)

Um, George, old Acoustic guitar amps were Mesa-Boogie copies and tube-loaded.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:02 (twenty years ago)

They were? Must be thinking of something else. The bass amps?

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

I had a mid 70s Peavey bass cabinet with two 15" speakers that I used for over ten years. That thing was like moving a fridge for every gig, it had to weigh 100 pounds. I love the newer high wattage 10" speakers they put in bassamps these days, you can get a 4x10 that can handle 2000 watts of power and still only weigh 60 pounds. Crazy!

I think an Ampeg SVT or similar tube bass amp would work OK for guitar. A big thing some people are getting into because they are affordable are old 60s and 70s tube PA amps like stuff made by Bogen and other companies, as they usually have a good amount of wattage and work well as guitar amps.

earlnash, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, the bass amps.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

The old Sunn bass amps work well with guitar and you used to be able to find them cheap. However, I bet that's changed. The caveat is that they're awful loud when they sound best. There's advantages to that, too, though, if you want something that's going to neutralize the meddling of a soundman hostile to your act at a dive.

George Smith, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 21:14 (twenty years ago)

I still like the distortion my Ampeg Reverb-O-Rocket spits out.

Oddly enough, Jason Pierce has used a solid state H+H amp ever since the Spacemen 3 days and has no trouble getting some seriously great distortion out of it.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 24 March 2005 02:45 (twenty years ago)

The tell-tale RAMMS+EIN chord sound is from one German playing through a maxed out Orange stack and the other German
playing through a fuzz box direct injected into the board.

I knew this is what you were really wondering.

The new Fender Combo 300 is a seriously warm, tube-y sounding beast that sounds like nothing else. I'd love to double it up with a screwed up old Peavey combo.

ian in brooklyn, Thursday, 24 March 2005 04:27 (twenty years ago)

You can get some really nice distorted sounds out of transistor amps with the right effects. But not, generally, out of transistor bass amps.

The Ampeg SVT has way too much headroom (read: you'd have to crank it to headsplitting volume before it'd distort prettily on guitar) to be of much use as a guitar amp. The biggest, scariest distortion sound I've ever gotten on bass is with my fancy-ass custom jobby (which is passive) through a Z. Vex Wooly Mammoth bass distortion into a 70s Ampeg B-15. It was surprisingly quiet and wouldn't have worked on stage, but sounds like the end of the world as recorded.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Thursday, 24 March 2005 08:40 (twenty years ago)

But, hell, I've forgotten to make my point about this thread, which is: the presence of Mesa Boogie amps on nü metal band's stages and the presence of nü metal geeks in Mesa Boogie ads has FAR more to do with the quality of Mesa Boogie's marketing department than with what's actually producing the sounds you hear live and on record.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Thursday, 24 March 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

I luv my DG-Stomp modeler x0x0x0x and If I want a heavy rock tone, I'll put my turbo rat or my mxr zakk wylde in front of it, or maybe both together, or maybe:

daisy rock guitar -> crowther Prunes & custard -> gs wyllie rising sun -> mxr zakk wylde -> proco turbo rat -> dg stomp "crunch" model -> eat my fuc, heh.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 24 March 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

i'm hesistant to dismiss an entire line of amps supposedly as versatile as those new mesas. however, a friend of mine has one, and his tone settings are nowhere near death/nu metal and the thing still blows. Tone just sounds so filtered and sterile.

old fenders, marshalls, and voxes just kick its ass for character and versatility.

if we're just talking the typical 'new' vs 'old' distortions, which is what this was originally about, i'd go with old.

AaronK (AaronK), Thursday, 24 March 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

pah, just get a pod or something similar, then you can have all these amps!

if you find it sounds too good (sterile, full, processed blah blah blah), then run it through a clean-as-fuck-amp, i like it through my old 60s JTM the best

TomB (TomB), Thursday, 24 March 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

I bought Guitar World cuz it was the only Some Kind of Monster cover I'd seen...that's the only time I bought one in recent years. I bought a Bass Player recently too....as a youth I was fucking obsessed with Guitar for the Practicing Musician.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 25 March 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

From Maximum Guitar

My weeknight with Zakk. It was not cakk.

Zakk invented me to his house for this interview. "Pardon me, bub, but I'm still a little sleepy from the two quarts of jack and six cases of Lucky Lager last night," Wylde said sheepishly.

Showing not a trace of weakness, Wylde's fingers flew as he demonstrated the dynamics of his classic tunes, transcripts of which you can download on the website.

That done, we retired to his living room to watch a selection from his collection of porn videos and to drink beer while reclining in zebra-striped Barcaloungers. Just when I was beginning to feel woozy Zakk suggested we go out for steak.

Arriving at Steroid Steer House, Wylde order two Belt-Busters, 24 oz. pieces of meat that come free if you can eat them in 30-minutes. We'll not say what I did with mine after fifteen minutes but Wylde was not at all incommoded by his meal and was ready to go out for four more hours of carousing.

Next month: Slash's two eighteen-wheelers full of gear and his collection of 30-foot long rock pythons and anacondas.

George Smith, Friday, 25 March 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

so what are the readable gtr mags these days? way back in the day i used to love guitar player, when they would put people like johnny marr on the cover and make fun of the wankers in the other gtr mags. but then they became a wanker mag themselves. i love gtrs but i hate the words "shred" and "mixolydian" (even though i like some bands who shred and/or use mixolydian scales). i'm most interested in knowing how the other half of the guitar world lives. what should i be reading?

fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 25 March 2005 23:47 (twenty years ago)

(also, i like magazines that are written in recognizable english, but that's just me.)

fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 25 March 2005 23:49 (twenty years ago)

(and i have no objection whatsoever to reading about zebra-striped barcaloungers, as long as the barcalounger's occupant is not talking about shredding while occupying said barcalounger.)

fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 25 March 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

Ha-ha. Ok. But I don't know what you should read, either. The guitar mags have clean copy if that's what you mean when 'readability' is a requirement. Guitar Player did become just like the people they poked fun at. So it's half-a-dozen of Guitar World, or six of GP. Mostly, their driven by heavy metal, a couple flavors of shred and classic rock guitarists who are either dead or sort of retired.

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 01:05 (twenty years ago)

The british guitar magazines, as a rule, are much better than the american ones. (No, I'm not a brit. sheesh.) You can find them at most big barnes and nobles, borders, etc. They actually give negative reviews of gear occasionally, which strangely never happens in their american counterparts.

The Clapton pedal has 3 fairly good sounds (including a spot-on "sunshine of your love" complete with half-cocked wah) and four mediocre ones. He doesn't make any money off it (all his profits go to the Crossroads foundation), so you can even but it and not feel like you are supporting sluttery. Which is probably a topic for another thread...

If anyone is interested in further biased opinions from me on music gear (not keyboards or drums, please), feel free to Gmail me, as I spend 60 hours a week peddling this crap in my store.

John Justen (johnjusten), Saturday, 26 March 2005 01:25 (twenty years ago)

Guitar magazines teeter-totter between two uses: making me want to play more guitar, and making me want to buy more useless swag. (Besides making me want to write, I guess.)

I have a 1970 SG, a solid Mockingbird, and Hagstrom II, and last summer bought a cheap Washburn semi-hollowbody for $180 new from musiciansfriend on the basis of these helpful reviews. Cheers to the Internet -- these 49 random geezers really gave me the lay of the land:

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Oscar-Schmidt/OE-30-Delta-King-01.html

Or staying true to topic here's the Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier (standard) page, which echoes what I'm reading above.

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data/Mesa_Boogie/Triple_Rectifier-01.html

As for tabs, and wanting to instantly play "Baker Street" or "Into Crypt of Rays," I'd look here:

http://www.thetabworld.com/
http://metaltabs.com/

And if this isn't venturing too far into disinteresting territory:

http://www.guitarnoise.com/index.php

has plenty of interesting micro-lessons to flush out what I know.


So what else?

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Saturday, 26 March 2005 03:11 (twenty years ago)

"....as a youth I was fucking obsessed with Guitar for the Practicing Musician"

Ahhh...the 80s. That mag was the first one to have transcriptions, which didn't help me much. Those SST ads in Hit Parader however did do the trick.

I actually subscribed to Guitar World in December. I got caught by a mailer offering 12 issues for $10 bucks, probably because my name got sold by Musicians Friend. That same week I had picked up an AC/DC "Guitar World: Guitar Legands" magazine, which reprinted a bunch of interviews and pictures with the Young brothers, so I figured what the heck and subscribed.

GW is a whole lot better than the last time I checked it out in the early 90s, they seem to cover any hard guitar rock pretty even handed. You would have never seen a half page feature on Agnostic Front back in the day, but they are in GW now. The same two page spread has a full page on Isis and a quarter page on Mastodon with an Alex Lifeson side runner, which all kind of makes sense if you think about it. They have a full page with Matt Pike and an interview with Jimmy Page about making Physical Graffitti in the current issue.

In some ways, this kind magazine is a bit more honest than many music rags as it at least gives a passing nod about playing music, not just all of the trappings around music. It is gearhead and aimed at people that play (at least somewhat), but I am finding it better than I would have thought. And what the hey, in the past couple of months, I have learned the opening riffs to Don't Fear the Reaper, Fool for the City and Long Train Running. I like Tape Op for similar reasons, except it is about recording and a whole lot better.

I don't really have a problem with Kerry King selling guitar shwag, at least it has something to do with his profession. I just like to imagine the what ralphs walking around with that cap on their dome must be like.

On a similar but related note, I got pretty weirded out checking out this new 2005 Fernandes catalog. Check out this motley crue of endorsees:

David Lynch - Yeah that David Lynch
Natilie Maines - Dixie Chicks
Wes Borland - Yeah that band.
Dave Navarro
Adrian Belew !!!
Robert Fripp !!!!?
Ernie C - Body Count (Remember Ice T's metal band?)
Rob Halford ???
Steve Stevens - Billy Idol
Nick Olivari
and the big kicker outside of Fripp
LEE RANALDO!

What a strange group of endorsees.

There is a feature in this catalog about some pickup called a Sustainer, which is kind of like an Ebow pickup with quotes. This is probably a big reason Fripp, Ranaldo and Belew ended up as endorsees of these guitars.

Most of the quotes are typical spiel but dig this quote from the catalog about the Sustainer:

"Since using my Fernandes Sustainer, I have become the life and soul of any and every party. Guys look at me anxiously from corners of the room, while fawning bimbettes seek my opinions on the fetishisings of music's inherent and delineated meanings"

Robert Fripp (King Crimson)

Pretty funny. They also have quotes from Paul Leary and Lee Ranaldo in the same area. It all tripped me out.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Saturday, 26 March 2005 05:00 (twenty years ago)

In some ways, this kind magazine is a bit more honest than many music rags

For hagiography, it's honest. There's some honor in being a flack if you're good at it and that's what writing for a trade magazine entails. It's about lining up the interviews with whomever is being pushed through the pipe at the time and who corresponds with reader interest. And then there's the thing of having to be respectful to the musicians.

I can comment from both sides. You conduct a hundred interviews with rock bands and it becomes tougher and tougher to do stenography for whatever witless thing comes over the telephone or face to face. Not everyone's interesting and sometimes the people just beg to be put on skewer or, at the least, have good sport made of them for the sake of mental health.

But I was never interested in or good at celebrity or even semi-celebrity journalism. Heck, I would have even treated myself crappy for the sake of some good lines.

Plus, the gear reviews simply aren't real useful except as a list of features. Might as well go with your gut or tramp out to the music store and try the stuff out -- which is what I do. The crap that sits around the computer music station was either bought on whim or after I tried it out at the town's music store. One instance, I saw Roger Linn on TechTV demonstrating his AdrenaLinn. And after about two months of it percolating through my head, I bought it. He sold it rather than the reviews, which were generally ecstatic, that it elicited.

Sideways, with Harmony Central, at least crazy and irritated people can be found handing in semi-coherent gear ratings and that's been useful in warning me off a couple things.

as it at least gives a passing nod about playing music, not just all of the trappings around music. It is gearhead and aimed at people that play (at least somewhat), but I am finding it better than I would have thought.

True. They are professional.

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 05:57 (twenty years ago)

Y'see, I find these "reviews" of the Triple-Recto entertaining and useful. You would never see such in a guitar mag. Notice the slight trend: If you don't play through a Triple-Recto, you are a homosexual.

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I like brutal heavy sh*t. How about some noise pollution? This amp does it louder and stronger than all the bogner pusses that condem this G/D amplifier. I know your Bog is all high tech but mines got tube rectofiers{HA!}Why else do you think all the big famous bands use this[Clutch,Tallica,Korn,not to mention Rocky F'n George Sui cidal. Not just nu metal but old school romp! All you Diezels got to go get another vet from your Daddy cuz this is the workin mans metal amp. Yeah I like the gain pegged but its a good sound. I got another high gain amp. VhT and I keep the gain at 7 on that one and 10 on the rec but for loud in your face cutting through brewtality the Rec is right up there with the best of them. Don't let these Diezel guys steer you wrong or the Framus wanna Diezel b's. This amp is louder, chunkier, and more usable then wasting twice as much dough.There mad at you if you own this cause they know there amp ain't as loud, Ha ha!.

Its over the top and it'll just crush you.

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As for the people who come on this site and bash things just because their popular, a band you don't like uses them, or you simply can't afford one: GET A FUCKIN' LIFE!!!! Don't talk stupid shit about something just because Limp Bizkit uses the product, that just makes you a slack-jawed faggot little pussy whos daddy put it in his ass one too many times. If you use this amp right it'll make you a Goddamned sexual Tyrannosaurus. {Steals from Jesse the Body in "Predator," we see.) Viva Mego!!!!
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It's so Brutal that I had to spell "Brutal" with a capitol "B."
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Don't be stupid, yea you might spend some extra money for a Mesa but remember your also getting a peace of gear hand crafted and tested here in AMERICA. You won't have to deal with some British faggot over seas to simple make an upgrade or questions about a tube your thinking of trying.
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The distortion is the most brutal known to man. it is completely TEETH GRINDING, if you dont believe me,

====

You can have the worst tone on the planet, but sound like you are ready to cut a CD when you play through one of these. Highly recommended for young players who do not pick very articulately yet. You will raise the roof with but a few power chords

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 06:25 (twenty years ago)

I've found myself recently getting really sick of Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall style rock... for me a Fender 64 Twin Reverb is a fantastic amp when the drive is way up (but then I love the stones) I genuinely hate all the rectifier stuff, though sometimes its fun to play guitar through a digital processor thats set to a rectifier setting just to take out agression...

But honestly, for me, neither tone compares to a single coil pickup being played through a nicely overdriven tube amp...

Bryan Moore (Bryan Moore), Saturday, 26 March 2005 06:47 (twenty years ago)

this thread is awesome, and if i wasn't laughing so hard at those "reviews" I'd be leaping off the nearest cliff on account of the depressingly boring macho idiot tone that is so prevalent among guitar players/gearheads.

amon (eman), Saturday, 26 March 2005 08:29 (twenty years ago)

("tone" as in tone of voice, but nor am I too crazy about the "phat" sounds these musical jocks have coming out of their amps either. chugga chugga indeed)

amon (eman), Saturday, 26 March 2005 08:34 (twenty years ago)

George Smith gets endless love from me simply for wading through the reviews and culling the best of the worst. Please note my new thread, Chugga Chugga Wheeeee! as musical genre.

John Justen (johnjusten), Saturday, 26 March 2005 08:42 (twenty years ago)

Yep, you don't see a lot of wimmen posting reviews to Harmony Central. If they do, and I bet there are some, they use the Anonymous sign-off effectively. Who could blame them? "You play like a girl." "Girls are pussies who play Fenders." "Girls can't play." Etc.

I'm surprised Frantone stuff sells. It must really be good. "What, you bought that pink Cream Puff Fuzz? Who would be seen with something called a HepCat in powder blue? What wusses. Real men play throught the Russian-made Big Muff that comes in a pinewood box!"

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 08:47 (twenty years ago)

"[Clutch,Tallica,Korn..."

TALLICA!!

amon (eman), Saturday, 26 March 2005 08:52 (twenty years ago)

Amen brother. Real men are only allowed to buy "Faggy" colored gear if it's vintage (Note Fender Shell Pink, Surf Green, and Sonic Blue).

On a more serious note, encouraging women/girls (girls used in the age-related sense, you fuckers) to feel comfortable in a guitar store is still difficult, even in these post-"Cherry Pie" non-spandex-wearing days. It isn't just metalhead idiots either. Even us alterna types seem to be much more comfotable resigning women to three categories:

1. Lead Singers (Karen O., ad infinitum)
2. Bass Players (Kim Gordon, Kim Coletta, Etc.)
3. Acoustic guitar players (You make the list)

God forbid any woman starts playing the Electric guitar (gasp). Before the inevitable list of great female electric guitarists begins, let it be known that you are preaching to the converted. The challenge is to name any that have full-on popular acceptance. Any takers?

John Justen (johnjusten), Saturday, 26 March 2005 09:06 (twenty years ago)

Ha, George Smith is burning on this thread. I bought the zakk wylde pedal for several reasons:
1/it has a k-k3wl roundel on it
2/I got a good deal on it
3/zakk wylde is as fit as fuck
4/(OK, seriously) I played my guitar through it, and it did sound seriously fucking great. Better than my turbo rat, even.

I cannot recall a single example of Zakk Wylde's playing, though I'm sure he rocks.

Once in a while I pick up a copy of Guitar Buyer. I like it b/c it's mainly just all reviews of gear, and there's none of this play like fukcing SRV every 2 months like all the others I look at.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 26 March 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

zakk wylde is as fit as fuck

Zakk's muscles ain't cakk. If he put his mind to it he could probably be an arm-wrestling champ. Maybe I'm being too facetious with the guy. I did like him in "Rock Star." Wasn't his character's name "Chud," presumably from the horrible "Chud (Carnivorous Human Urban Dweller)" movies? He'd brandish a shotgun in the tour bus, stick it out the window and blast a road sign.

The challenge is to name any that have full-on popular acceptance. Any takers?

Bonnie Raitt. But does anyone remember her in the guitar mag readership? I know Guitar Player used to cover her before it became a metal 'zine.

Chrissy Hynde. She was in videos and on album covers holding guitars enough. But not regarded as the main guitar player in Pretenders.

Joan Jett. "I Love Rock 'n' Roll" pushed her right into the mainstream spotlight. The movie "Light of Day" helped, too.

It's a tough list. Here again, if you profess to a liking of any girl guitarists or women hard rockers in the young guitar-player peer group, you are assumed to have an extra feminine chromosome. If you touched a Triple-Recto, you'd catch on fire. It's doubly problemmatical with Joan Jett -- a "lezzie." Nothing worse in this group than a girl who doesn't prefer to have sex with men.

I could never get any of my guitar-playing colleagues who liked hard rock to invest any time at all in Joan Jett records, which for the most part were very rawly produced brutal RAWK with pop hooks.

Even the Marines, for crying out loud, admit girls these days and have lost a couple in the current war.



George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

It isn't just metalhead idiots either.

Hell no -- I'd rather face Randy Rhoads in a guitar store than yer typical pockmarked Jimmy Crespo type in a black leather vest any day.


So what's the deal with the ethernet ports in new Gibsons? Is that panning out for them?

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Saturday, 26 March 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

I doubt it. Someone did this a few years earlier, or maybe even a lot earlier, and it didn't catch on.

My take is that they'll be used by one or two upper end recording artists, sort of like Frank Zappa with the Synclavier. But everyone else will just ignore it.

The beauty of the electric guitar is that it's simple and eminently portable. You can take so many battery-operated mini-amps that are essentially just computer chips or a collection of diodes, put them in a bag, lug the guitar, and practice or play anywhere.

A guitar with ethernet ports is exactly the opposite kind of animal.

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

Or in another way of speaking: It's a solution to a problem no one needs solving; an answer to a question no one will care about.

George Smith, Saturday, 26 March 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

Gibson's track record w/high tech gear is very poor, and somewhat sketchy/skanky, to say the least, see the oberheim/buchla/crowe ob-mx synthesiser, their astonishing squandering of the oberheim brand's value, this, their fucking over of the admittedly ailing opcode music sofware company, ZIPI, off the top of my head.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 26 March 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

I don't get Gibson at all. They seem to buy up companies that make good stuff just to close the doors. What do they want, the office furniture? Trace Elliot made some good bass amps and seemed to be somewhat popular for a time, but Gibson bought them and they vanished.

Fender on the other hand aquires other brands and seems to do somewhat well with improving the lines and making them more marketable like Gretsch and Jackson, who seem to be more popular since merging. I just wish Fender would get with it and buy Gibson out.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Sunday, 27 March 2005 04:39 (twenty years ago)

Guitar Center must be selling my address -- which I was stupid to give them -- to other operations.

I'm starting to get junk mail that must come from their tree.

The biggest piece is "Guitar Camp for Kids." This is an ad for nationwide courses over the summer at "guitar school." Learn to shred, play the blues, play classical, all from 4-star instructors in a campus setting.

I guess it's a fad for parents who have always wanted to get rid of the kid at camp for a week or two during the summer. I always hated camp. BoyScout camp. Keystone Boys State camp. Religious school camp.
Camp was punishment, something to be endured while causing the maximum amount of trouble just short of engaging in arson or other activity that would summon the police.

"No liquor or drugs will be allowed at guitar school. If any such things are fund, the student will be immediately expelled from guitar school."

How can you really learn how to play rock guitar, now, without exposure to liquor and drugs? That's just not reality. How can you learn to play it, or the blues, without having to slog through dives and be treated shabby by low-lifes? Is there a course where camp counselors pose as owners of pay-to-play venues or practice spaces who rent out to you only to let thieves they've made arrangements with previously in during the time when no one is around? Is there a session where you are on the highway coming back from a fruitless gig at 3:00 in the morning and the highway patrol pulls you over because they think you are running drugs out of the city?

But better, are there courses where parents and other family members harass you constantly over your stupid career choice of being involved in the "music industry?"

What is this shit where parents want to send their kids to rock and roll school and then take pictures of the graduation ceremony, where the kid plays in a pick-up band with one "star," like Roger Daltrey who needs the money so he humiliates himself, at the end of the week?

I'm seeing more ads for this and stories in magazines and newspapers.
Go to camp to learn rock and roll. What happened to learning rock and roll from records? How can you get a certificate in rock music? "This student certified to play death metal at a standard set to be at least sub-mediocre but not worse by the Connecticut School of Guitar. Individual results may vary. School of Guitar not responsible or liable for negative outcomes."

What teenage or pre-teen boy would admit to going to camp to learn how to rock? It's like saying you took lessons on how to cross-dress.

George Smith, Sunday, 27 March 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

I feel really really sorry for the 8-year olds now required to ride in car seats in New York State on their way to guitar camp, the skate park, church and the Rotting Corpse show. "No thanks mom, I'll take the train..."

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Monday, 28 March 2005 00:22 (twenty years ago)

Ditto that moment: Lifestyle affirmation story in the LA Times city section a few years back on Mom's taking their kids to rock rehearsal at some studio barn in the San Fernando Valley. Edging toward obesity young boys with short hair piling into SUV and wearing Misfits shirts on their way to rock.

Follow up: Last Thursday weekend section. Rock camp in school put together by school teacher loved by students. "School of Rock" tripe with the Joan Cusack/principal character the only missing piece.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 02:18 (twenty years ago)

Bump because the "today's guitar lords" thread is a manufactured disgrace. Bending over backwards to find "guitarists" by the generation which has dismissed guitarists as anachronisms. You shit in your bed, now lay in it.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 09:32 (twenty years ago)

"....as a youth I was fucking obsessed with Guitar for the Practicing Musician"

Ahhh...the 80s. That mag was the first one to have transcriptions, which didn't help me much. Those SST ads in Hit Parader however did do the trick.

Yep it was the tab that hooked me...even as a child I was already a lazy musician and didn't want to bother learning to read music...still can't.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 28 March 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

Russian Big Muff in pinewood box syndrome, from Harmony Central today:
=====
Son of a bitch! If I don't stick a fat stogie in my mouth after playing with this baby then I'm doing something wrong. The Green Muff is the redheaded stepchild of the American Big Muff Pi. She's a bit edgier, a bit more gnarly, and if you ever expect to tame her, you're an idiot.

A guy I knew once said that his Green Muff would frequently malfunction through takes in the studio. He would be in the middle of a solo and it would cut out. The knobs were missing so it only had one setting. When she would cut out, he would throw her against the floor and walls to get her to work again, and voila, he would finish the take.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.williesguitars.com/Images/69.jpg

This is my fuzztone pedal. I sounds good through everything with everything. It especially works well for recording with my Fender Blues Junior. I picked up the 69 for $80 bucks a few months back from a guitarist that changes gear more often than his underwear.

earlnash, Monday, 28 March 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

What did you use for a fuzztone previously?

I have a Holowon Static Egg that came for $65. It's a little different than the usual in that it sounds as cheap as it was, which is kind of opposite the trend these days.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

I never had a fuzztone until the 69. I used to play in a band with someone that had an old Big Muff Pi, which looked cool, but at least with his rig sounded really undefined like a mashed potatoes version of Steve Turner from Mudhoney. He had a 70s Fender Twin, but it had these gnarly Black Widows speakers.

I've also got ProCo Turbo Rat that I would use for distortion on both bass and guitar since the early 90s and I picked up a MXR Distortion+ a couple of years ago when I started getting more into playing guitar and not just playing bass.

earlnash, Monday, 28 March 2005 20:22 (twenty years ago)

Hahahahaha, George Smith is easily my new favorite poster (apologies if you've been posting on ILM for a while).

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 28 March 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Here's the "wow" thread.

today's guitar lords: pov

Quote:

forget about the ibanez-wankers and metal-masturbators I say yeah! Just fuckin' pick the damn guy who fingerpick accompanies the action painters or the fellow who used to nail his penis to a plank at art clubs in LA.

Someone named Chasny. Best is Buckethead, hands down, no contest. Gives Michael Jackson a run for his money in cultivating image of publicly functioning psychotic. Two weeks ago, the New York Times art section wrote of him requiring the record company holding the bag for "Chinese Democracy" to build him a chicken coop or cattle pen or something like that in the studio so he could eat, sleep and lay down tracks from within it. It makes one jealous as it is impossible to come up with better satire.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

he has a hot gf!

charleston charge (chaki), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

Will she have sex in a chicken coop?

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)

i dont think he really sleeps in a chicken coop

charleston charge (chaki), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)

The New York Times lied to me then.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

I used to be in a band with Jim Mankey, now of Concrete Blond.

He's an engineer. he built his own 'power soak'. It created this amazing compressed, sustain-y tone when wired directly into his Marshall Combo.

When i asked, Whatthefuckisthatthing? He said something that sounded like talking schematics.

So, um, what *is* a power soak?

ian in brooklyn, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:34 (twenty years ago)

the deli creeps man.. yah.

charleston charge (chaki), Monday, 28 March 2005 22:34 (twenty years ago)

A dummy load. You run the output of the amp to it and take the soak's output to the speaker cabinet. The soak takes the raw output of the amp and dissipates it through a variable resistive load -- my Scholz power soak uses ceramics.

The idea is to take the good sound of an amp that is turned all the way up and regulate it to a more listenable or tolerable level. I used them live for years with Hiwatts and the Scholz models were great. He stopped making them but a lot of other manufacturers have jumped in. Marshall, for example, makes what they call a "PowerBreak." It's overpriced and old Scholz soaks can probably found for a reasonable price.

Scholz power soak.

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

Tallywhackers.

http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Scholz/Power_Soak-01.html

George Smith, Monday, 28 March 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

G. Smith: A good guitar citizen--thanks!

ian in Brooklyn, Monday, 28 March 2005 23:17 (twenty years ago)

I ain't some kinda gear head so most of this shit has lost me but I just bought a Danelectro Fabtone Distortion cheap off ebay and it's a fuckin' beast. Heavy as hell, takes some tweaking to get a well rounded sound, but a monster. Great for Mogwai, Yo La Tengo, Giant Sand, Mudhoney...
Play it through my Jag or Ricky copy and it rules. Not one for muso tone freaks, but fuck em, they don't understand rock n roll.

Stewart Smith (stew s), Monday, 28 March 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)

Product reviews of the day, the Digitech X-Series Metal Master:

i use a randall stack, dimebag darrell Dime3db guitar, crybaby wah,digitech chorus pedal and then this thing. i find the sound of this pedal a tad bit weak and fuzzy, its got a good amount of fuckin noise with it. one of my friends has an MXR doubleshot distortion, that blows this motherfucking pedal out of the water.By its self this pedal sounds similar to the megadeth album Rust in Peace. dont get me wrong that album is kick ass but it aint heavy. but if u add an MXR ten band EQ you start to hear similarities of the albums countdown to Extinction or some pretty heavy slayer. this pedal is good for playing in your basement or bedroom, u cant use this thing live for a couple of reasons, for one u shouldnt have to use a distortion pedal live, u should have a bad assed amp like mine for heavy distortion, all u assholes who buy these measa booger dual rectos and then hook a distortion pedal up to it need to learn more about heavy sound. if u gotta use a distortion pedal live then use the MXR doubleshot, seriously that thing kills. another reason is the noise that comes with this damn thing, even with a noise reductor it still fucks things up, this isnt a pedal that u turn up loud but i dont kno maybe it will sound good for u fuckers. this may be a good pedal for those faggot ass nu metal bands full of gay fucks who cant even solo. or maybe not. if u want real metal like metallica,slayer,anthrax,Damageplan,and megadeth.... get the MXR or a really bad ass amp like a marshall mode four or some shit.
=====
Well I'm using a crappy setup, so that might explain SOME problems with the tone.


This thing only dirts up the high-end. The entire low end is so uncrunchy and so muddy that I can hardly imagine this thing living to its name. The highs definately got some roughness, but are extremely thin and wimpy sounding. Kind of like a really sharp plastic knife.


The thing is affect by a horrible case of carpet distortion, that is, it does not change with what your playing. You would get a similar effect by putting a broken tv next to your microphone along with the amp, and squeezing the signal hard through a compressor.


=====

Overall Rating: 10
I play mostly Death, Black, Prog and Grind:
Abazagorath, Dimmu Borgir, Burzum, Dub Buk, Horna, Windir, Immortal, Ildjarn, Darkthrone Between the Buried and Me, Ion Dissonence, Shadows FAll, The Black Dahlia Murder, Grand Belial's Key, Must Missa, Otep, Morbid Angel, Circle of Dead Children, Children of Bodem, Mastadon, Mnemic, Satyricon, Nile, Chimaira, Himsa, Finntroll, Atreyu etc...


====

Sound Quality: 9
So far the best metal pedal i've tried.In the last few years i've had the following "metal" pedals:BOSS METALZONE,MARSHALL JACKHAMMER,ZOOM TRI-METAL...All of them have been sold or traded.
The METAL MASTER stays because it screams real heavy metal like no one i've heard before.If you like SLAYER you will love this pedal,incredible palm muting and sustain.If you like IRON MAIDEN forget it,you will sound like shit trying to play The Trooper.

====
Overall Rating: 6
I have been playing for 4 years now and I am super duper good. I am a viscious metalhead. I own nothing else besides the amp, guitar and pedal. I guess this is an alright-temporary match for what I play..If it were stolen I wouldn't buy it again because I am wicked broke. I am not super pleased with this pedal, but it will do. The morph knob and the little red light when I turn the pedal on are the coolest features about it. I was going to get a DOD Metal Pedal, but the dude from Guitar Center steered me away from it.
=====

Overall Rating: 10
I dont know what all these pepole are sayin on here. You can all eat a sack of dicks. If ur into playing Cannibal Corpse, The Haunted, Strapping Young Lad, Dying Fetus, Dimmu Borgir, OTEP or Cradle of Filth style music then BUY it. If ur gonna play Linkin Park or Good Charlott or sum Rollingstones type shit, then stay the hell away from it, you pussies should be using an Aria Ultra Metal Pedal...and even thats too good for ur fuckin pussy music. If ur into the true heavy music, then buy it. This is probably the best death metal pedal available

===
Found a girl, or someone pretending to be a girl:

I've purchased all the distortion pedals. ALL OF THEM! The Metalzone (which is called the "poser pedal" around here, cuz it is for suckers) the Jackhammer (which is decent, lil better than the Metal Zone) the Zoom Tri-Metal (which used to be the best til this pedal) and countless others; DOD Death Metal, Big Muff, ProCo Rat, etc.
I'm a chick guitarist/front"woman" in my band. I kinda do a BLS thing. I play all the parts on my recordings, and have a backing band live. I drop tune almost everything, and this pedal is VERY well suited for that.

George Smith, Tuesday, 29 March 2005 03:57 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...
I don't know why so many people deem it necessary to put all mesa's into a box with their rectifier series, it's just not fair to people who own nicer sounding mesa's. The mark IV would have to be one of the most versatile amps around (big price tag though). With 4 6L6's it becomes a fender with a class A section for even more warmth, and can have GREAT gain to boot! Put 2 EL34's (or KT77's) in the class A section, and you have the best of both worlds, the nice crunch of an EL34 amp, and the depth of a 6L6 mesa! Great for anything from a light crunch to a really dynamic metal tone that breathes (unlike the crappy rectos). However, a 4X12 V30 cab (preferably mesa traditional) will just can make any amp sound a ton better. They're still the world's best speakers for rock (and metal).

Part of the trick is just to turn the mids up as you crank your master volume knob. It's so simple. Sure a midscooped sound is good, but it doesn't need to be at -90dB when you're playing at ear-piercing volumes. Your ears do a natural mid reduction (or it could be bass and treble "amplification") at those volumes anyway, so you don't need to turn 'em down much.

In summarising, I would just like people to stop dis'ing "all mesas" when really they just mean "rectos". I hate rectos, too. And try a Mark IV. You may never want to touch a Marshall again (though they ARE still great).

Jeff Everitt (bloodrose), Monday, 24 July 2006 00:51 (eighteen years ago)

kudos to me for this thread

Supercalifragilisticexpiala Brosius (chaki), Monday, 24 July 2006 01:00 (eighteen years ago)

This is frequently entertaining:

This is the thread to post vain douchebag Harmony Central reviews

Urnst Kouch (Urnst Kouch), Monday, 24 July 2006 02:00 (eighteen years ago)


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