this is where you get me into hip-hop

Start with Run DMC's self titled debut album, then move to Public Enemy's 'It Takes a Nation of Millions'.

Anything else you do from there is subjective.

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"get me into ROCK! i like the killers..."

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My suggestions for a first shopping trip:

El-P, Deep Space 9mm - good indie-rap dense electronicy production (vs. 'organic' which seems to be the corny indie cliche), shares a lot of fans with MF Doom
Cannibal Ox, The Cold Vein - ditto
Wu-Tang Clan, 36 Chambers - one of the greatest albums ever, period
Boogie Down Productions, Criminal-Minded - best pre-'90 hip-hop album, way better than any PE or Run-DMC.

(also you oughta hear the obvious precursor to Madvillain - Kool Keith's "Dr. Octagon", which is unbelievably great)

"I don't like the Bomb Squad's production style"

*head explodes*

doc oct has "I'm Destructive" and "Girl Let Me Touch You" and "3000," and I like those three a lot. The other songs are good too. Pretty great album I guess. I never listen to Deltron for some reason, but more because of fresh. year of college burnout.

and yeah, I know the jury's still out re: Missy's albums, I was speaking more of my personal opinion. Under Construction does flow for me in a way the others do not.

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i've only given liquid swords a chance so far, and that was only my initial reaction... i think it's starting to grow on me. at first, i think i had too many previous associations with the production style/lyrical content -- sounded like a doom/quake soundtrack (credit that one to college).

Hon-GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWW!!!!!!!!!!!

Best meaning _stark_ in an era when Eric B, Marley Marl, and Hank Shocklee were inventing the new vocabulary of how Hip-Hop will sound for the next 10 years by filling in space with a tapestry of samples of personalities?

I love Criminal Mided on its own merit though...but I repeat; subjective.

I think the attempted derailment of this thread was *wise*. Listing indie-hop, mainstream hip-pop, reactionary hip-hop, selective old school, (whatever it is and however you defend it) is somewhat about what community you belong to within hip-hop or your points of context.

In 1983, when Run DMC's Sucker MC's dropped, there were no debates, discussions, or sub-genres. It floored us all in the hip-Hop community and changed the direction of the genre. All we could do was pick up our pants and run to catch up. Same for Nations of Millions. Rakim's Paid In Full too and hell, to a lesser, unackowledged degree, LL Cool J's Rock the Bells. Nothing has really affected the genre like those since as Hip-Hop splintered from that point. Even if you say Wu Tang, The Chronic was equally as shaping, albeit in a somewhat different direction.

I will say that I was near exclusivly a Hip-Hop fan from 1980-1996, but I realized how narrow I was and moved outside of my realm. I took bits and pieces from Indie-Rockers/Punks/Goths/Ravers/dorks of all types and pieced it all together. If I would've just got Sonic Youth and the Smiths at one guy's request, I would've never moved on either...so point taken.

The many fans of what's happening in all the many factions may offer you the guidance you're looking for. However, if the context of Hip-Hop as it is/was matters to you, I highly siggest those two albums at some point in your quest. Run DMC & PE are two groups solidified the foundation Hip-Hop stood on in the Drum Machine/Sample eras.

(dies of nostalgia...)

Don't forget to pick up Schooly-D, Big Daddy Kane, Marley Marl, Africa Bambaataa, etc. when you're in your old school fix.

However, most hip-hop records I've come across which don't seem to be as eulogised have been amazing! Snoop Dogg's Doggystyle, Trina's Diamond Princess, Salt'n'Pepa's Very Necessary, Bubba Sparxxx's Deliverance, Lil Kim's The Notorious KIM etc.

As for Missy albums, you just need all of them.

notorious big - 'ready to die'

lil wayne - 'tha carter'

dmx -
'and then there was x...' for melancholy pop.
'flesh of my flesh blood of my blood' for spare gothic minimalism.
'the great depression' for heavy metal.
(despite these distinctions, all 3 albums sound more or less the same)

ice cube - 'amerikkas most wanted'

bone thugs n harmony - 'e1999 eternal'

david banner - 'mississipi'

bubba sparxxx - 'deliverance'

missy elliot - 'supa dupa fly'

geto boys - 'geto boys' and 'we can't be stopped'

rza - 'as bobby digital in stereo'

ghostface killah - first 'supreme clientele' then 'the pretty toney album'

nas - 'illmatic' (not as good as illmatic bores make out, but thats more a criticism of illmatic bores than illmatic)

tupac - 'all eyez on me'

jay-z - first 'the blueprint', then 'vol2. hard knock life' and 'vol.3 life and times of shawn carter'

big punisher - 'capital punishment'

bushwick bill - 'little big man'

capone n noreaga - 'the war report'

snoop dogg - 'doggystyle'

petey pablo - 'still writing in my diary...the 2nd entry'

wu-tang clan - 'the w'

timbaland and magoo - 'under construction pt2'

http://www.discogs.com/release/187654

Old stuff: NWA's Straight Outta Compton was in many ways the ground zero of hyperviolent gangsta rap, but it was really compelling, and it rocked.

And Jay-Z is just great pop and great wordplay. The testosterone levels can get annoying, but it's fun enough and clever enough to look past that.

Blount, you're way too kind...but since you indulged me on this topic...

I have to say that Straight Outta Compton was ground zero for *nihlism* in Hip-Hop, but Ice T's 1986 landmark '6 in the Mornin' was the real genesis of 'street tales' in the Hip-Hop community.

CB4 really was a parady of NWA's career. Early NWA/post World Class Wrecking Crew Dre produced singles shows a strong affinity for ripping off Beastie Boys circa Licensed to Ill. Then Ice Cube wrote Boyz in the Hood for the group HBO mimicing 6 in the Mornin', and that paved the way for them to become the NWA most think of (after HBO bailed, forcing Eazy E to rap).

Eazy Duz It and Straight Outta Compton were largely written by The DOC, who openly admits he was never a gangsta. It was a contest of being the most nihlist between he and Ice Cube.

By then, Ice T was riding the coat tails of PE's politics.

If you do decide to get into Southern rap [dirty south or whatever it's called], it always goes back to Miami Electro->Miami Bass circa 1983-1991, which is my specialty. Cash Money is based on Mannie Fresh, who was producing Miami Bass back in 1987.

...if you have cloth ears ;)

Missy must be thinking about a Greatest Hits at some point, although probably after her next album.

And if you want a Neptunes album go for Kelis' Kaleidoscope which is from before Pharrell William's insisted on being on everything he wrote.

Mama Said Knock You Out is a mixed bag of Hip-Hop come backs (title track, Break of Dawn, etc) and watery R&B-Hop ala Father MC, thus prompting the ubiquitous "keep it real" campaign of the 90's. The real stuff on that album is solid though. The R&B stuff isn't half bad, sans Illegal Search.

Critical Beatdown may be the beginning point of indie flavored Hip-Hop in the US.

Daily Operation, by Gangstarr