Why in the hell does Pitchfork review the new R. Kelly?

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Big time loser white-men writers should stop trying to be ironic. It's really not that clever.

― Dinero, Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

Ha! R. Kelly...white people are crazy.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

Why? What did they say about it?

― Aja (aja), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

cuz it's kewl to like hip hop ironically!

― breezy, Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:22 (twenty years ago)

How is that review ironic at all?

― Hillary Brown (Hillary Brown), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:22 (twenty years ago)

Nobody at Pitchfork is "big time"

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:23 (twenty years ago)

BYRNED

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com.ass.otron.org/

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

WHITES REVIEIWING BLACK MUSIC WTF

― sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

OH GOODY, ANOTHER PITCHFORK-BASHING THREAD

THE SECOND IN TWO WEEKS, THE HONOUR IS OURS!

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, there's nothing ironic about that review at all. I thought it was pretty fair and took the album on its own terms. What's your hang up, Dinero?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/nicole-kidman/scansk/kidman/pitchfork.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

http://www.anatol.org/images/china/china1/images/man-with-pitchfork.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

http://images.animationfactory.com/animations/people_a_l/farmer/farmer_holding_pitchfork/farmer_holding_pitchfork_lg_wm.gif

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

Isn't irony supposed to be funny?

― eat my replacement (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

Ask Alanis!

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

http://spacegrant.usu.edu/profcartoons/pitchfork.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Also: if a noob didn't start these threads, then Dom would have to, and that'd just get old after a while.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:32 (twenty years ago)

"Dinero" and "Dom Passantino" both start and end with the same letter.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

I don't see the irony either, is it the mere fact that they got their grubby paws on it or what?

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

*picture of "American Gothic"*

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:40 (twenty years ago)

I hear it only got reviewed cause R. Mitchum is R. Kelly's cousin.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

I mean, it's complicated. Kelly's legal fees get covered almost entirely from the Mitchum deodorant fortune. So Rob has a vested financial interest in helping Kelly's career, in the hope that he can one day pay off some of those debts.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Which is funny cause the whole Kelly incident in question stemmed from a commercial shoot for Teen Miss "Natural" Mitchum that went horribly wrong.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

ME GRAN SEYS THEY SHOULDNT LET FOOKIN KIDDLY FIDDLERS IN MAGERZINES

― GARU G, Wednesday, 6 July 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm glad Pitchfork's around to tell me what R. Kelly sounds like.

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've read on ILM.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

don't exaggerate

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:04 (twenty years ago)

take offense, if you must, but don't exaggerate

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:05 (twenty years ago)

is the definition of irony different when you're talking about hipsters? What's so ironic about hiphop, trucker hats, and mustaches? maybe like the first time EVER some dude wore a redneck mustahce his friends were like "woah dude, that's so ironic, cuz like, we totally didnt expect YOU to have a mustache!"

but from then on it ceases to be ironic. or maybe it's the incongruity of not actually liking mustaches even though you're wearing one? that doesnt quite make sense though. am i missing something?

― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:05 (twenty years ago)

No, you're right, Miccio. I was just struck dumb trying to think of a retort and I resorted to hyperbole.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)

"Take the "Trapped in the Closet" cycle, for instance-- perhaps the most bizarre, audacious, brilliant undertaking a major artist has attempted in years."

Bizarre? yes.
Audacious? probably.
Brilliant? ... it made me laugh, i guess, and that takes a *kind* of brilliance, but probably not what Mitchum is talking about.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

http://pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/m/morissette_alanis/under-rug-swept.shtml

― jessu is the anssu (alanbanana), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

He didn't really call it a "brilliant undertaking" did he? That is terribly, laughably off-base if so. Anders Smith-Lindall in the Sun-Times yesterday was otm when he said that:

"But most consumers won't be buying this disc for anything but the five-part melodrama "Trapped in the Closet," in which a series of characters all voiced by Kelly uncover each other's unexpected romantic entanglements. Released sequentially to radio in recent weeks, the song's chapters saturated the airwaves and stormed the charts. Collected on "TP.3," though, the saga's novelty fades fast, leaving listeners with 15 musically monotonous minutes and a story that no longer shocks."

Though I am troubled that anyone would have found this song cycle to be shocking or interesting the first go-round. I just laughed at its desperation and overblown sense of artistry.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

Yes, that was a direct quote. I can just picture a bunch of reviewers huddled around a stereo *trying* to love it.

7.4?

W
T
F
.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:39 (twenty years ago)

Are you trying to do irony now?

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

I have an easier time imagining reviewers huddled around a stereo *trying* to love Will Oldham.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

"I have an easier time imagining reviewers huddled around a stereo *trying* to love Will Oldham."

Me, too.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

and that leg cramp retains its shock after countless listens, trust me.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Ditto on the "boop"s.

― Hillary Brown (Hillary Brown), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

The thing is, I can't think of one single R. Kelly song I've ever thought was even remotely "good." I know people dig on him and all, obviously or he wouldn't sell, but his style is so devoid of soul and passion that I am stymied by the devotion. The sterility of his production, the extremely obvious and ultimately limited back and forth nature of his songs (God or Lust? Lust or God?), the lack of true charisma replacing it instead with supposed street cred and the lowest of base personalities just screams vile charlatan.

I'll give almost any pop performer some slack, even the most hackneyed (Britney has a few good tunes in that shlock case she calls a catalog and Eminem/50 Cent both score on occasion despite being fairly reprehensible personalities), but no one on this Earth could convince me that R. Kelly has ever done anything to deserve the lauditory praise he continually gets from this younger generation of music writers. My guess is that his scandals have only made him that more interesting to people, as Kelly was "steppin'" perilously close to the edge of irrelevance before it broke.

Keep on truckin', I suppose.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

For a number of years I really questioned anytime PFM would stray out of "their" genres, because the reviews were either out-and-out bashing of mainstream cultural sacred cows or ironic crap. At this point, there are a handful of writers I actually respect that are doing reasonable reviews of music that deviate from what was previously the PFM norm.

The singles blurbs (I mean "Track reviews") really make me wonder wtf sometimes though.

― mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Brett, not even "Ignition (Remix)"?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

The remix of "Pissin'" was the closest to liking Kelly I've ever come. But that's Chapelle, not R.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Brett, that's just some bullshit. R. Kelly's been doing entertaining, spirited, bizonkers music for over 10 years. Just stop trying to listen to non-rock or understanding people who like it (the extremely obvious and ultimately limited back and forth nature of his songs (God or Lust? Lust or God?) - well no Prince for you, though you probably admit his "innovation").

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

R. Kelly wishes he could likc Prince's dirty stillettos.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

well yes, but that's neither here nor there.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)

I hate ILM.

― n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

Prince is terribly erratic, but I'd say, of what's been released, Prince has about five albums worth of stellar material.

You'll notice I do take into account that he's intensely popular. I personally am simply flabbergasted by the fact time and time again.

― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Wednesday, 6 July 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 277 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I hear you on that, Dan. It's when they start talking that screws it all up.

― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

Hahahaha "Pitchfrok"! Can we rename neighborhoodies pitchfrocks?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

to myself i probably rationalize liking say the belle album and disliking jesus walks by calling al green sexy, not soulful? its hard, you dont want to like u saved me, for the antics, exactly

― 007 (thoia), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

also yeah i dont thing religiosity or attendant? homophobia in really any music are tolerated because of group voting behaviour!

― 007 (thoia), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

On a certain, basic level (and I recognize that this is a bizarre position), I am happy when people "play smirking ironic games" with music that means a lot to me because that's yet another context/group of people where I get to hear my favorite music. Fuck what they're thinking, just turn up the volume.

That's cool, and I can see where you're coming from. I'm just saying I can see why people react negatively to that, too. It makes sense to me that they would. (Personally I'm not sure how I would feel in the same situation).

Cunga's is an interesting observation.

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

As an atheist, I'm fine with Religion in all sorts of music: Kanye, Johnny Cash, Leonard Cohen, Nusret Fatah Ali Khan, whatever. With most of those guys (except the last, with a caveat I'll come back to) they have something going on beyond religion. Their relationship to their God is coloured by decidedly unGodly musical elements. Even devotional music like Khan's seems to exceed religion in the scope of its inward fixation on musicality, plus of course I don't understand the words. I don't think Religion bothers many listeners unless it's the kind of earnest sales-pitch that feels like you're being asked for a donation. It's like the difference between your Catholic friends and the Jehovah's Witnesses who get you out of bed with a hangover at 9 on a Sunday morning.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

I forgot to add: they generally don't focus on exclusively Religious subjects, plus that whole Sexual/Religious ecstasy expressed as metaphors of each other thing.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

Any Jehovah's Witness who comes to my door bearing hangovers is going to get kicked in the nuts.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

unless its Prince, I assume

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

Hehehehe. I don't think a Mormon or a JW has ever called at my house when I haven't been hungover and crushingly depressed. I don't know if this says more about them or me.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

Prince would never give me a hangover. He's too thoughtful. I bet he'd bring me a purple tea set.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

How does Prince reconcile the, ahem, secular elements of his work with being a Witness?

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

I mean, some religions almost want their practitioners to fall off the wagon every now and then, just to feel bad afterwards. But JW's seem pretty straightedge. And humourless, oddly enough.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:31 (twenty years ago)

Prince doesn't sing the naughties no more.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, he basically renounced that entire segment of his work and said "FROM NOW ON ALL TEH JAMZ BE 4 GOD".

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:42 (twenty years ago)

Well I'm not going to bother going to see him next time he's in Hull then.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:45 (twenty years ago)

Although knowing my luck he'll come and wake me up one morning with the fucking Watchtower.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

people be arguing!

― strng hlkngtn, Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

btw chaki that wasn't me up there. i don't fuck around with logged out pseudonymous bullshit. (well, except ___o ____ington variations.)

ilm still better than pitchfork on its best day, btw.

― strng hlkngtn, Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)

Prince is still great live! He just hides the racier parts in medleys, has plenty of great tracks that don't require humpage.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

He's also mellowed out on the message tip. Aside from "open a bible/and let it guide you/ to the purple rain" and a few gratuitous points to the ceiling it was just a great time. And he politely suggested you should sleep with his band instead of him.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

He also still has a "floozy" sexing it up with a musical instrument (in this case a saxophone).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:52 (twenty years ago)

I liked chunks of the last album, I never even realised he'd stopped singing about doing the wild thang. I was kind of vaguely aware of the religion thing but never put 2 and 2 together.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

He's unlikely to play Hull any time soon tho.

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

why in the hell does this thread have 350 posts?

― r. kelly, Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)

Cos we love you, Kells. (Even that grumpy git Perry who pretends not to.)

― Taste the Blood of Scrovula (noodle vague), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:04 (twenty years ago)

It's true that I like R. Kelly more than I like other artists I've grumbled about. I certainly don't like "Ignition (Remix)", though.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

It took me forever to like "Ignition (Remix)," I'm trying to remember when I 180'd on it (though I prefer "Step In The Name Of Love (Remix)" on that album alone).

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

this turned into a really great thread, btw. I will second the motion to call Neighborhoodies Pitchfrocks from now on. and "Step Remix" is just astounding.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

A, I don't feel invested enough in R. Kelly to try making myself like a song that initially and subsequently rubs me the wrong way, no matter how many other people love it.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

I never said you should, dude! I just meant to reaffirm that not everyone here immediately broke into the o-face upon hearing it.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

I think I just laughed the first time I heard it. Just like with "Trapped In The Closet." Kells is a nutter.

― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

I hear you, A (and didn't mean to imply that you were saying that).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

"Pitchfroks" is genius.

― deej.., Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

Pitchfroks can be the upstart. T-shirts with things like "Gentrifyier," "You Only Like Me Cause You Think I'm an Oreo," and "Trustafarian." I'm on it!

― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

I wish this thread would go back to talking about Prince.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

What's funny is that the social conservatism found in many black Americans leaks out in hop-hop all the time. How about the omnipresent but somewhat obligatory mentioning of God/Jesus or the usually confusing comments denouncing homosexuality? If blacks weren't such a key voting group for Democrats (they actually vote more Democrat than actual registered Democrats) I don't think the left would tolerate the non-stop Jesus talk and constant animosity towards gays that is found in hip-hop. The kind of religioug talk that usually elicits eye rolls gets intrigue and tolerance when done in hip-hop/rnb. I don't think Jesus Walks was any deeper than a Creed song about God but today Kanye West is considered a "thinking man's rapper", to quote an MTV VJ at Live8, while Creed were always kind of considered to be kind of obnoxious (although I'll admit there were other factors).

Point of order: The left (or at a minimum the moderate left) is not going to discourage God talk from their side anytime soon. Having said that there's kind a of a blatant "Migger: The Magic Nigger" (thank you Chris Rock) syndrome going on when people react to mentions of God in hip-hop & R&B mixed in with a perfectly understandable "well at least they're not talking about fucking hoes and showing off their jewelry" reaction.

One of the best things about Will & Jada hosting the BET Awards was this comment from their monologue about rules for the show: "Rule #5: If you can't perform your work in church, don't thank God when you accept your award." It kind of encapsulates the whole conundrum in one awesomely-delivered joke.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:43 (twenty years ago)

"You Only Like Me Cause You Think I'm an Oreo,"

OMG!

― The Ghost of I WANT ONE (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

Some ideas for Pitchfrocks

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Ah nice. Y'all probably think I'm joking, but the shirts are on the agenda. I'd like to add "I Give Good Head...Games" and "Black Girls Do It Better."

― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

While I see what yr saying, they did used to say this about Ray Charles too, eh? Like, the whole spiritual music turned into nast dance songs "mama when she shake that thing" etc.

― deej.., Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

I liked that joke (and a surprising amount of their other ones), and I also liked the implication of Jada Pinkett as "The First Lady Of Black America," meaning NO ONE ELECTED HER.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Deej, there's a non-negligible difference between doing a gospel-style carnal song and saying, "I'd like to thank God for inspiring me to write 'Smack The Bitch In The Eye (With My Dick)'."

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh man, I laugh everytime at that joke. I almost broke something the first time I saw Chris Rock do it.

― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 7 July 2005 20:01 (twenty years ago)

"He ain't talkin' 'bout ME"

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

(Chris Rock is kind of my hero.)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

Hah well yes that was the part where I said "i see what yr saying." I'm just bored and felt like saying something about ray charles.

― deej.., Thursday, 7 July 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha repseck! I do the same thing.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 July 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Smack The Bitch In The Eye (With My Dick)

I certainly plan to buy this Pitchfrok

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 7 July 2005 21:28 (twenty years ago)

That is fucking classic. I like Chris Rock.

― giboyeux (skowly), Thursday, 7 July 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

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