TS: Led Zeppelin vs. James Brown

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Where's that confounded bridge?

― Blake Hedley, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

SHIT

SHIT!!!

DON'T DO IT.

― Boring Satanic Space Jazz (sexyDancer), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

I thought this was going to be another Michael Costello thread.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

This is like being forced to choose between your babies.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

TS: James Brown or The Fall?

― Boring Satanic Space Jazz (sexyDancer), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

James Brown.
Pretty easy, this one.

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

JB. This time the easy answer is the right one.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

JB.

Other than their sample value, this is apples and oranges.

― Anti-Pope Consortium (noodle vague), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

I'll have to pick trance over blast this time.

― Boring Satanic Space Jazz (sexyDancer), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

apples and oranges? clearly you're forgetting "The Crunge"

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

I try.

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, where the hell is this bridge?

James, by a country mile. Robert Plant's banshee wail drives me insane 8 out of 10 times.

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

JB easy.

― deej.., Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

I love LZ, but have no problem making a decision here: JB.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

LZ easy

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

LZ no doubt.

― 57 7th (calstars), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:02 (twenty years ago)

I choose Funkadelic. Best of both!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

JB rocks harder. In his sleep, JB rocks harder. C'mon!

― Soukesian, Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

LZ gets my vote.

― darin (darin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

The quintessence of apples vs. oranges.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

nah, Led Zeppelin by a considerable margin.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

James Brown w/out his various musical "assistants" is pathetic - Zeppelin's got the good old' rockist merit of being a self-contained unit (and a very high-quality unit at that). Zep also display greater breadth/depth in their material... on the other hand, JB is the most influential musician of the second half of the 20th century, so, uh....

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Please, James Brown by a country mile.

― mucho, Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

JB all the way. ALL the way. Zep are in the top 5 percent of whatever category they belong to, but JB (let's say pre-'76) is untouchable. And don't knock his choices of "assistants," and ability to coach them/use their abilities--he made a great musician out of Fred Thomas!

― Douglas (Douglas), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

I'm not knocking his choices, I'm knocking his reliance on the talents of others coupled with a rather distasteful tendency to abuse them and not give them credit.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

Say it loud: James Brown is Superbad.

― theophilus jones (theophilus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

At least James Brown didn't fuck a chick with a shark.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

haha yeah right - and James Brown has been arrested for how many times for beating up women...?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

At least James Brown didn't fuck a chick with a shark.
-- n/a (nu...), July 21st, 2005 12:18 PM. (Nick A.) (later)

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

Zeppelin

― jedidiah (jedidiah), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

Shark skin is made of a matrix of tiny, hard, tooth-like structures called dermal denticles or placoid scales. These structures are shaped like curved, grooved teeth and make the skin a very tough armor with a texture like sandpaper. They have the same structure as a tooth with an outer layer of enamel, dentine and a central pulp cavity. Unlike the scales of scales of bony fish (ctenoid scales) that get larger as the fish grows, placoid scales stay the same size. As the shark grows, it just grows more placoid scales.
These scales also help the shark swim more quickly because their streamlined shapes helps decrease the friction of the water flowing along the shark's body, by channeling it through grooves. Also, the shark's skin is so rough that contact with it can injure prey. All of the spines of the denticles point backwards (towards the tail), so it would feel relatively smooth it you moved your hand from head to tail (but rough the other way).

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

Now use your imagination.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

Essentially the forced shark-fucking cancels out the beating up women, and since James Brown didn't record "Stairway to Heaven" he wins.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

the shark fucking thing has never been verified, proved, etc. no charges brought, no injuries reported. Brown's beating up women, however, has been legally testified to in court, numerous times, and by all accounts (bandmates, wives, etc.) the man is a crazed, power-mad, abusive asshole.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

If James was naked swinging around a microphone stand, and Jimmy Page was naked swinging around a barracuda shark then who would win in a fight?

― Justin Farrar (Justin Farrar), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

"James Brown w/out his various musical "assistants" is pathetic - Zeppelin's got the good old' rockist merit of being a self-contained unit (and a very high-quality unit at that). Zep also display greater breadth/depth in their material... on the other hand, JB is the most influential musician of the second half of the 20th century, so, uh..."

Shakey makes a good point, if you ask me. If you read Fred Wesley's autobio you get a sense of how limited James was, musically--the guys in JB's band always snickered and laughed when JB played organ, according to Fred. And certainly Duke Ellington could play some fine piano, right? You could say the same thing about Don Van Vliet, except Van Vliet coulda made a pretty cool record just singing and blowing some harp. Since we don't have a record of JB singing the blues backed up with only his piano or organ, I dunno. But all that's irrelevant, since JB got those guys to play like that and organized it, made it profitable. And I would imagine had I put my skinny white ass in a room with JB and had Mr. Brown putting the fire under me, I might have gotten even funkier than I am already.

So yeah, James Brown. But Led Zeppelin was great and would that not have been fantastic--JB backed up by Page, Bonham and Jones?

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

I mean the most plausible account I've read of the "shark-fucking" incident is that they had a bunch of fishguts and were rolling around in them, and even THAT sounds wildly implausible. Remember, this is the band that thought it was a funny joke to tell airport authorities that a bag of heroin was actually just a bag of cocaine... and do you seriously think you can fit a fucking shark in a vagina?

(x-post haha I just finished reading Wesley's autobio)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:45 (twenty years ago)

also James Brown has recorded many songs much worse than Stairway to Heaven. His Full Force MDs collaborations spring to mind.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

also James Brown has recorded many songs much worse than Stairway to Heaven. His Force MDs collaborations spring to mind.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

Thought it was a red snapper and entirely consensual?

― Sundar (sundar), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:40 (twenty years ago)

(If maybe drunk/stoned and possibly young and impressionable. But, yeah, Shakey's right, I don't think there's any one verified record and certainly no reported injuries or charges laid. "Stairway" = classic obv.)

― Sundar (sundar), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

I'm a Midwestern, farm boy yokel at heart.

Led Zep for me, obv.

*although this is a super tough taking sides and I could def. see picking JB, but I have to be honest, I listen to Led Zep way more, and I'll probably never like ANYTHING to the degree to which I liked LZ when I was about 14.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

you zeppelin ppl are insane, james brown all the way. the man all but INVENTED FUN.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

I wouldn't want to live in a world where it was only one or the other.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:40 (twenty years ago)

the man all but INVENTED FUN.

that makes no sense.

Alex in NYC OTM! Sometimes these T/S suck....sophie's choice.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

JB easy - the most important figure in modern music in my opinion.

― Robin Goad (rgoad), Friday, 22 July 2005 06:43 (twenty years ago)

Both overrated IMO.

JB may have "reinvented modern music" but that kind of thing is hard to prove. There would still have been funk without JB, you can trace the trends heading that way through soul-jazz and the rest. How would it have been different without JB? I don't know, but neither does anybody else. Also how much of it was Bootsy, Clyde Stubblefield and the other guys? Plus funk has a case to answer for producing more mediocre music than just about any other style, not excluding lots of James Brown records.

What is clearer to me is that while the best of JBs music is among the greatest of the past 60 years, the really quality stuff doesn't add up to a huge body of work. Even on a typical 20 track best of collection you are soon down to 2nd or 3rd rate exercises-in-the-genre like Hot Pants.

He still easily beats Led Zeppelin, who I once dearly loved once but find more or less unlistenable. They've dated badly, except Bonham's drumming, of course, which is still miraculous.

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:24 (twenty years ago)

If you read Fred Wesley's autobio you get a sense of how limited James was, musically--the guys in JB's band always snickered and laughed when JB played organ, according to Fred.

His organ playing sounds fine to me

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

Thought it was a red snapper and entirely consensual?

And also it was supposed to be Vanilla Fudge and not Led Zeppelin

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

also James Brown has recorded many songs much worse than Stairway to Heaven. His Force MDs collaborations spring to mind.
-- Shakey Mo Collier (audiobo...), July 21st, 2005.

Yeah but i'm not deluged with paens to the greatness of James Brown featuring the force MDs.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 15:52 (twenty years ago)

you're deluged with Stairway to Heaven? do you live in a Guitar Center or something?

is overexposure necessarily the fault of the band...?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

Zep. I don't know or care which band is more important or more influential, but I'd rather listen to Zep 9 times out of 10.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

xp No, but I don't have to TRY to avoid JB's crappy songs, the only JB songs I ever hear are great. Most of Led Zeppelins most popular songs are pretty shitty. Like "Stairway."

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 16:03 (twenty years ago)

"Stairway" isn't shitty - though it is overexposed. They do have lots of better songs though.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

I really really really love JB and there's nothin that scratches the tight, dirty funk itch quite like him - but, like o.nate, I'm probably inclined to listen to Zeppelin more (at this particular point in myu life, anyway) just because the breadth of their material is wider. JB did one or two things - and he did them fabulously well, like no one else - but Zeppelin could do about a dozen. I appreciate versatility and variety, it sustains my interest for longer.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:05 (twenty years ago)

(I have no idea what Zep's "most popular songs" are, apart from Stairway... Black Dog? Whole Lotta Love?)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:06 (twenty years ago)

Whole Lotta Love is pretty great. So is Black Dog, Dazed & Confused, Kashmir, Dancing Days, D'yer Mak'er and most of the other Zep songs you hear a lot.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

The idea that Led Zeppelin had more "varsatility and variety" than James Brown is mind-boggling to me. And I think "Black Dog" and "Dazed and Confused" and "Kashmir" and "D'yer Mak'er" are all pretty shitty. I do like "Fool in the Rain" (the one instance of their supposed 'variety' i can think of) and "Immigrant Song"

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

James Brown may have *tried* a lot of things, but he was only great at two: heavy funk and slow-burning r&b ballads.

Zeppelin otoh: principally hard rock, folk, blues, and prog, but their dalliances with funk ("Trample Underfoot"), reggae ("Fool in the Rain"), country ("Tangerine"), middle-eastern droniness ("Kashmir"), free-form workouts, etc. are, more often than not, just as entertaining as their more conventional blues-rock bread n butter.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

you hate "Kashmir" = you are insane

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

You think "Fool in the Rain" is reggae = you are insane.

I liked "D'er Mak'er" when I first heard it in High School! (thats the reggae one)

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 16:20 (twenty years ago)

also, by the end, In Through the Out Door, they were almost flirting with this weird synth-pop/krautrock/heavy metal crossover...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

Re: Musicians' personalities, whether they are nice guys or not = who gives a fuck (yes, I know I argued about this yesterday, but I have changed my mind).

Re: "Diversity" of catalog: who gives a fuck.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

Re: "Diversity" of catalog: who gives a fuck.

what if someone finds the variety makes the listening experience more fun and less tedious for them? they're just crazy?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

They could, I don't know, LISTEN TO MORE THAN ONE BAND.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

ooh! I also like "All of My Love" a lot! Thats the one with the fake keyboard horn solo where he flubs one of the notes right? Thats my jam.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

I don't think "Stairway to Heaven" is very great. If this was LZ doing their inspired-by-the-Incredible-String-Band thing, it was lacking in the same degree of inspiration, lacking in whimsy, or even lacking the sheer mania of the later (less inspired) ISB epic things like "Creation."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

well, I give a fuck, for reasons I already stated. And I DO listen to more than one band, obviously, but we're not discussing ALL bands, we're discussing TWO bands... stay focused...

the rhythmic pattern in "Fool in the Rain", with the emphasis on the upbeat, is completely reggae (tho "D'yer Maker" is too - the obvious pun being the main clue)

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

"Musicians' personalities, whether they are nice guys or not = who gives a fuck "

haha - well you brought that one up. So, what criteria are using today?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

D00d "Fool in the Rain" has a big old piano vamp and that crazy (Rockist scientist to thread) Latin coda. I don't hear much reggae.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

Where the hell is Geir?!

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

hahaha I was just wondering that myself! I'm hoping someone with a better grasp of music theory will show up and explain the reggae thing I hear in "Fool in the Rain"... the pace, the rhythym the drums play under the riff, it reminds me of Junior Murvin or something...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

I think it's fine for a band to do just one style well. I wouldn't rate one band over another just because it had a bigger stylistic range. However, if all of a band's songs tend to sound alike, I might hold that against them. That goes beyond just having one style though - I'm thinking more of the case where the band only has one song and they just keep re-writing it. But I don't think JB is guilty of that anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

"Stairway to Heaven" may be pompous sub-Lizard-King mystification, but it does have an instantly memorable melody and riff and it does the soft-to-loud thing with panache.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

the reggae thing I hear in "Fool in the Rain"

Good call...not to mention it then takes a left turn in Latin town.

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:48 (twenty years ago)

Xgau once claimed that there's a great ballad comp waiting to get assembled. I'd love to hear it. That's probably the most underexposed side of JB's.

Frankly, the TS is a bit ludicrous.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)

I tried, clumsily, to explain some things I like about "Stairway" on another thread.

To try to pick out a couple of my favourite aspects (though I know too much has been written about it): the sighing slide guitar overdub in the guitar solo; the triumphant chorus of guitars pulling off suspensions on D just before the solo; the way that the imagery is thrown about in enough of an abstract manner as to avoid falling into traps of pseudo-medieval kitsch; how it manages to hint at disenchantment, a wish for change, and self-doubt without beating you with any of them.

Except for maybe the recorder (?) and maybe the "piper" reference, it doesn't really rely on cliches from classical music or older linguistic/literary forms like a lot of prog and metal, even compared to [Queen's] "Prophet's Song". It evokes that sort of atmosphere using a harmonic (suspensions and a chromatic base for the initial guitar line) and literary vocabulary that was very contemporary.

And there was this thread. Michael and Anthony probably did better jobs of explaining it than my overly technical self.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

It's nowhere near as crude as any of Morrison's Lizard King stuff.

I like what I know of James Brown.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

Although Kim said all it makes her think of is slutty high school girls dancing with guys in bad sneakers so context plays a role too. As I said before, I really don't find it to be that overplayed even compared to, say, "D'Yer Maker". How often are you guys catching it on the radio? More than a couple times a year?

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Knowing white males in high school = hearing too much zeppelin and floyd.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

I never heard Led Zeppelin AT ALL until I got to college. And I grew up pretty much exclusively around white (and asian) males.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

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